ishkatbible
Jan 02 2010, 09:47 AM
dumb question...

this was a casual round but, off the tee i threw into a drainage pipe that goes under a lime stone (dirt, rock) road. finished skidding about half way in the mddle of the road, just, below it. i know i would have to ask the TD in a tournament, but what would you guys do in a situation like this? (bag tag challenge, no TD around, me and my opponent scratching our heads) play approximately above the disc? play from the end of the pipe where it went in? with a stroke?

just so you know, i actually crawled in the pipe on hands and knees and pitched out. the pipe in only like 20', so i had about a 10' pitch, and putted for par. is that what you would have done?

Lala
Jan 02 2010, 10:39 AM
Depends on if the road is usually inbound or OB on your course. @ our course, the road (also caliche) is OB, so in the pipe is OB, so you get a meter in from the road line w/1stroke. If the road were inbounds, I think you'd play directly above the disc.

davei
Jan 02 2010, 10:51 AM
dumb question...

this was a casual round but, off the tee i threw into a drainage pipe that goes under a lime stone (dirt, rock) road. finished skidding about half way in the mddle of the road, just, below it. i know i would have to ask the TD in a tournament, but what would you guys do in a situation like this? (bag tag challenge, no TD around, me and my opponent scratching our heads) play approximately above the disc? play from the end of the pipe where it went in? with a stroke?

just so you know, i actually crawled in the pipe on hands and knees and pitched out. the pipe in only like 20', so i had about a 10' pitch, and putted for par. is that what you would have done?

You played correctly unless than was an OB area. Your other alternative was previous lie with a stroke penalty.

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pterodactyl
Jan 02 2010, 12:54 PM
If you can get a foot or hand or any supporting part of your body behind the disc, you need to play from there unless there are some local rules (like ob, buncr, etc) that stipulate you take a drop zone throw or some other penalty.

PhattD
Jan 02 2010, 07:34 PM
I highly doubt inside the drainage pipe would be considered a playing surface. Maybe if it was big but if you have to crawl in I would say play it as if it were in the road.

DShelton
Jan 02 2010, 11:18 PM
I highly doubt inside the drainage pipe would be considered a playing surface. Maybe if it was big but if you have to crawl in I would say play it as if it were in the road.

This very thing happened at the Wildcat Springs A- Tier. One of the pros had a throw slide into a culvert and stopped halfway through. The TD ruled that it was not OB and the pro had to pitch out from inside the pipe, without a penalty.

pterodactyl
Jan 03 2010, 01:00 PM
I rest my case, your honor.

ishkatbible
Jan 03 2010, 07:19 PM
This very thing happened at the Wildcat Springs A- Tier. One of the pros had a throw slide into a culvert and stopped halfway through. The TD ruled that it was not OB and the pro had to pitch out from inside the pipe, without a penalty.

that's what i actually ended up doing

dave25926
Jan 03 2010, 09:22 PM
isnt there a rule of verticality

bruce_brakel
Jan 03 2010, 10:06 PM
isnt there a rule of verticalityThe rule of verticality defines how to take relief on a slope when relief is allowed. It does not define when relief is allowed.

If the road was understood to be o.b., the o.b. line is a plane that goes up and down. Neither the rules nor the FAQs adequately deal with layered playing surfaces. Maybe the plane stops before it hits a different kind of potential playing surface; maybe it doesn't. The FAQ does make claer that if it is in bounds, you play it on the surface it lies on or take an unplayable penalty.

In a serious one-on-one match I'd ask my opponent for a ruling and accept any reasonable ruling. O.b. or play it where it lies are both reasonable rulings.

chainmeister
Jan 05 2010, 05:06 PM
Assuming the road is ob I think its an ob shot as soon as the disc goes under the road unless it bounces back and is in the pipe but not under the road. Even if it goes through the pipe to the other side, the disc, like the proverbial chicken, is ob. We don't need to ask why...but we might. Of course, if the pipe extends beyond the road a bit and into the culvert we may have a situation where there is a penelty and you are still in the pipe one meter in from the plane extending down from the road's edge. I would give you a meter from the pipe but I might be too lenient.

bruce_brakel
Jan 11 2010, 02:27 PM
I'll take your meter and take the stroke too. :)

JerryChesterson
Jan 11 2010, 03:40 PM
The rule of verticality defines how to take relief on a slope when relief is allowed. It does not define when relief is allowed.

If the road was understood to be o.b., the o.b. line is a plane that goes up and down. Neither the rules nor the FAQs adequately deal with layered playing surfaces. Maybe the plane stops before it hits a different kind of potential playing surface; maybe it doesn't. The FAQ does make claer that if it is in bounds, you play it on the surface it lies on or take an unplayable penalty.

In a serious one-on-one match I'd ask my opponent for a ruling and accept any reasonable ruling. O.b. or play it where it lies are both reasonable rulings.

I'm assuming the road is in bounds. If the road is OB it wouldn't matter if you are in the pipe or not, you are OB as you are surrounded by OB. It is kind of like landing in a tiny island in a creek. The disc may be dry but you are surrounded by OB therefore you are OB ...

Just as if you are playing a round w/o the 2 meter rule I'd play as follows ...

A case can be made that the pipe is not the playing surface the road is (this would depend on local rules and how bug the pipe is). The rule of verticality states your lie extneds indefinately directly in a straight vertical line. I'd mark it on the raod and play it from there.

krupicka
Jan 11 2010, 04:10 PM
The rule of verticality only applies to measure distance IB from OB. It does not apply here if the road is IB.

gnduke
Jan 11 2010, 04:18 PM
Discs below a playing surface are not accounted for in the rules, only discs on or suspended above the playing surface can exist on a disc golf course.

If the disc is below the lowest playing surface, the disc ceases to exist.

JerryChesterson
Jan 11 2010, 04:47 PM
the rule of verticality only applies to measure distance ib from ob. It does not apply here if the road is ib.
why?

krupicka
Jan 11 2010, 04:52 PM
Here's the rule under the Out-of-Bounds section. It is fairly narrow on usage.
803.09.C. The Rule of Verticality. The out-of-bounds
line represents a vertical plane.
Where a player’s lie is marked from a
particular point within one meter of the
out-of-bounds line pursuant to the rules,
the one-meter relief may be taken from
the particular point upward or downward
along the vertical plane.
IMO it should be used for all lateral measurements, but that's a subject for the rules update.

pterodactyl
Jan 11 2010, 04:55 PM
why?

Because if it isn't ob or within one meter of ob you have to play it where it lies.

JerryChesterson
Jan 11 2010, 05:14 PM
Because if it isn't ob or within one meter of ob you have to play it where it lies.

Even if it lands in a tree. Why is is limited to above the playing the surface. Seems to me it shouldn't and should extend below the playing surface too.

pterodactyl
Jan 11 2010, 05:34 PM
you just mark directly below the disc. This is not the rule of verticality.

ishkatbible
Jan 11 2010, 07:46 PM
I'm assuming the road is in bounds. If the road is OB it wouldn't matter if you are in the pipe or not, you are OB as you are surrounded by OB. It is kind of like landing in a tiny island in a creek. The disc may be dry but you are surrounded by OB therefore you are OB ...

Just as if you are playing a round w/o the 2 meter rule I'd play as follows ...

A case can be made that the pipe is not the playing surface the road is (this would depend on local rules and how bug the pipe is). The rule of verticality states your lie extneds indefinately directly in a straight vertical line. I'd mark it on the raod and play it from there.

the road is in bounds! hole 5 - universal city, tx.

exczar
Jan 12 2010, 05:00 PM
Discs below a playing surface are not accounted for in the rules, only discs on or suspended above the playing surface can exist on a disc golf course.

If the disc is below the lowest playing surface, the disc ceases to exist.


OOOooo, I like that last statement! Then what do you do next? If the disc ceases to exist, do you play it as a lost disc? But how can you do that if you know where it is?

Wouldn't this situation be similar to if a disc fell in a crack? You can see where it is, but you can't place your foot directly behind the disc, so you play it as if it were on the playing surface.

Why can't this be done in this case as well? Or did I just cite a non-rule rule? Ooopsy!

krupicka
Jan 12 2010, 05:22 PM
A deep crack/crevice would still be part of the same playing surface as the ground it disturbs. A drainage pipe would be a different playing surface and falls in the stacked playing surface category of Q&A interpretations.

bob
Jan 12 2010, 07:57 PM
I think the nearest rule is

2006.03 : Bridge Over OB (Multiple Playing Surfaces and Verticality)
Question - My throw landed on a bridge that spans an OB creek. The TD has not said anything about playing from the bridge. Do I play from the bridge, or is my disc OB since it's above the creek? What if I'm on the bridge but over land? Does it matter if the bridge is more than two meters above the ground below?
Response - The answers to these questions revolve around the definition of OB. In the glossary section of the rules, it states that the OB line "extends a vertical plane upward and downward". Where does that plane end? The rules do not address that directly.
There seem to be two reasonable choices:
A: The vertical plane extends indefinitely up and down.
B: The vertical plane ends when it reaches another playing surface.
Option A requires less interpretation, and option B makes more sense intuitively. The Rules Committee has discussed the issue and has decided that option B is preferable.
Although the term "playing surface" is not defined in the rules, it is used frequently and it is unlikely to be a source of confusion. Something is either a playing surface or an object on the course. A bridge, though man-made, is intended for foot traffic and clearly qualifies as a playing surface. Since it is not an object on the course, the two-meter rules does not come into play.
The IB/OB status of a playing surface is not affected by the OB status of another playing surface above or below it. OB applies only to the playing surface that contains it. Otherwise, a number of non-intuitive rulings result:
In the bridge example, the part of the bridge that is above the OB creek would be OB. A perfectly playable lie on the bridge could be OB, a foot away from a lie that is IB, when there is no direct reason for it to be OB. Players will have difficulty extrapolating where the OB part of the bridge is, especially if the OB line below is uneven (if it follows the creek's edge). Even if the TD uses paint or string to mark OB on the bridge, those lines will see a lot of foot traffic and may not last.
At least one course has an OB culvert that runs under and opens into a fairway. If the vertical plane of the OB line extends indefinitely, then there is a strip of OB on the fairway over the culvert. If an OB creek undercuts a bank, then the top of the bank is OB even if it is obviously playable. Someone would have to determine how far the creek undercuts the bank to figure out just where the OB line on the bank is. There is an overpass with a street high above a section of the course. The street, of course, is OB. If the plane extends downward, then a street-wide chunk of the course below is also OB.
If you interpret the vertical plane to end when it reaches another playing surface, you get much more intuitive rulings in the above scenarios. The bridge is IB, the fairway above the culvert is IB, the bank that overhangs the creek is IB, and the ground below the street overpass is IB. All of the playing surfaces above are easily distinguished from those above or below which contain OB.
Conclusion - You play a disc on a bridge as you would play it anywhere else on the course. Assuming the bridge is not OB, you mark your lie on the bridge and proceed with the hole. If your disc lands under the bridge, you play it from under the bridge, taking any OB into consideration as you normally would. Of course, the TD or course designer is free to make any or all of the bridge OB, in addition to the creek below.

Sorry for the copy and paste,
but my read is that given the road is IB and tunnel under the road is IB. You may not bring it up on the road. You must play it where it lays.
If that proves unplayable, well then you have a rule for that too.

By the way, you will see verticality used in the above quote. So don't be surprised when players read verticality into other rules.
Bob

gnduke
Jan 13 2010, 12:53 AM
Basically, discs are always above the playing surface the lie is marked and played from.
There is no provision to move the disc upwards to a playing surface, only to mark a disc suspended above a playing surface.

Bill, I have seen cracks in Texas where you can not find your disc.