I am preparing for the 2010 tournament season and I wanted to get some feedback from the local players (since the tourneys I run are for you all) about running Sanctioned Events vs. Non-Sanctioned Events. I am leaning towards not sanctioning any of the events I TD (or maybe only 1) due to the fees the PDGA charges. This directly takes money away from you all and the club's ability to raise money for the SADC New Course Initiative.

The PDGA charges $50 for a "sanctioning agreement" and $50 for insurance. That's $100 for every C tier event we run. The PDGA then charges between $2-$5 per player depending on the tier of the tourney. If we hosted a C-Tier that had 72 players we'd owe another $144 to the PDGA ($216 for a B-Tier or $288 for an A-Tier) . And on top of that there's a $10 per player charge for all non-PDGA members, of which we average around 15 per tourney. So for the typical tourney the PDGA is charging you ...

$ 50 - Sanctioning Agreement
$ 50 - Insurance
$144 - PDGA Player Fees
$150 - Non-PDGA Member Player Surcharge
$394 - Total Paid to the PDGA

There are even other fees, like a fee to mail in your payment ($25) or a surcharge to submit it online. They get you coming or going.

If you can't already tell by this thread I am against sanctioning most events. Maybe 1 or 2 a year, but definitely not the 7 or 8 I am planning for next year. But before I make this leap of faith I want to get your opinion since I run these event for you guys and without you the events will not be a success.

I am planning some big things for 2010. Perhaps even a local series with 6-8 events. I plan on providing the same things the PDGA does, like ratings and points.

As a player, what are your thoughts on Sanctioned Events vs. Non-Sanctioned Events?

For me it is a matter of having the time to play the event. Sanctioned or non sanctioned, I'll play. I was weighing the options of sanctioning the tournament that I throw back in NM but it seemed like way too much trouble to do it, especially given the lack of PDGA members there. You figure you could put all that extra cash back to payout rather than fees, and you also have the option to payout ams in cash rather than merch. Those who travel to play are the ones most concerned with ratings and points, people who play mostly locally just want a structured tournament that is affordable and fun. I think a local series would be a great idea!! Let me know if I can help in any way!

the pdga per player fees and non-member fees are added into the entry anyways. those don't come out of club fund. or at least i would think they don't. example...$27 for int. (includes $2 pdga fee, $5 ace pot, $20 payout)

so we should be back down to $125 (sanctioning, insurance, and payment surcharge)

"C-Tiers" allow 85% payout. if you were to do that the club could automatically get back 15% ($3 out of every 20 in entry fees) $125 / $3 per player = 42 players

Then there is also the mark-up on discs for am payout.

lets go basic... dx plastic we'll say $5 each club cost (i forget what it actually is) $8 retail. $3 profit per dx disc. more profit for premium plastics

player spends $20 on entry fee $3 to club/$17 to payout. with his $17 payout he buys 2 dx discs. (forget about the extra lost dollar, it doesn't mean much for this example) you get $3 each so you've made $9 for every $20 in entry fees (15% [$3] + $6 from markup). if all divisions are $20 plus pdga and ace pot and you did the 85% payout it would only take 14 players to break even ($125 fees / $9 per player = 13.89 players)

and you also try to get sponsors for added cash and such. the only real problem might be getting the money up front for merch used for am payout.

maybe i'm just missing something, and if i am please help me out, but sanctioning a tournament shouldn't be that costly for a club... but i could be doing the math all wrong.

the pdga per player fees and non-member fees are added into the entry anyways. those don't come out of club fund. or at least i would think they don't. example...$27 for int. (includes $2 pdga fee, $5 ace pot, $20 payout)

so we should be back down to $125 (sanctioning, insurance, and payment surcharge)

"C-Tiers" allow 85% payout. if you were to do that the club could automatically get back 15% ($3 out of every 20 in entry fees) $125 / $3 per player = 42 players

Then there is also the mark-up on discs for am payout.

lets go basic... dx plastic we'll say $5 each club cost (i forget what it actually is) $8 retail. $3 profit per dx disc. more profit for premium plastics

player spends $20 on entry fee $3 to club/$17 to payout. with his $17 payout he buys 2 dx discs. (forget about the extra lost dollar, it doesn't mean much for this example) you get $3 each so you've made $9 for every $20 in entry fees (15% [$3] + $6 from markup). if all divisions are $20 plus pdga and ace pot and you did the 85% payout it would only take 14 players to break even ($125 fees / $9 per player = 13.89 players)

and you also try to get sponsors for added cash and such. the only real problem might be getting the money up front for merch used for am payout.

maybe i'm just missing something, and if i am please help me out, but sanctioning a tournament shouldn't be that costly for a club... but i could be doing the math all wrong.

Paying PDGA fees takes money out of your pocket as the player. Those fees don't get added to the payout.

Paying PDGA fees takes money out of the club's pocket by limiting the entry fee. Since the club makes money by selling discs, i.e. the merch payout, we can sell less discs. If 100% of the money was going into the payout, we'd be selling more discs.

Beyond that, I just don't see the value in paying them $100 to sanction the event. Especially for events that are geared more towards local players. I think sanctioning should be done for larger events, but not for the smaller 1 day events. It just helps keep the money locally. I think SADC can have a bigger impact on disc golf in San Antonio versus the benefit the PDGA can provide from Georgia.

Some players may disagree because they really like the ratings or points aspect of it. I like the rating too, but lately I am questioning if that's worth it.

http://www.scarborough.gov.uk/images/keep-It-Local-3-lge.jpg

I don't think he means costly for the club...it is costly to you (the player).$125 for one C-Tier....times that by 8 events then it gets costly for the club. That does take away money from our project of paying for and installing a course in San Antonio. I am with Scott on this one. Maybe just Sanction 1-2 events next year.

Scott....I can also run some of those events next year. We'll chat this weekend.

i play for the rating, but i would agree with Scott the PDGA doesnt do anything for local clubs. money goes to a compound i will probably never play and for a web page i do use but really what are they doing with all of the money being collected for all of the tournaments being played across the country? If you are not sanctioning a tournament i do think the cost of plastic should also come down.
is there an itemized spreadsheet for what the club is spending money on, also how much money does the club have? Just wondering?

not that i'm against keeping money locally, but if i'm playing a non-sanctined event i'd rather it be a charity event (no payout), or cash payout (even ams). and paying out cash takes out of the merch profit.

not quite sure yet how the cash paying events turn out here yet, but i've read from other clubs that have them they seem to be more like a glorified 2 round mini.

$394

That's a new basket.
I like the idea of the PDGA and I want them to grow the sport into something approaching the PGA (we'll know we've made it when a scandal involving a future Climo becomes an ESPN headline) but that money used locally seems better spent than sent to Georgia for something else. This comes from someone who has been a PDGA Ace club sponsor the last few years (though probably not next year because I'm having trouble seeing what that extra $100 a year does for me). I also play the IDGC courses every year, sometimes twice a year.

I will play a local event regardless of its sanctioning so that's not a concern for me.

Maybe if San Antonio was flush with nice and varied courses with great local player support (think capable of hosting a PDGA Worlds), I would lean more toward sanctioning the events to help the PDGA with its goals.
But SA is lacking in championship courses and the geographic diversity of the courses so I think the money SADC raises is better spent here.

If we use the money for the new course initiative to build a championship caliber course would we be able to have a PDGA top ranked event. I feel the PDGA may be reluctant to hold a World's type event in SA if we lack supporting them now.

Sanctioning also brings in the out of towners and word of mouth is the best marketing.

i play for the rating, but i would agree with Scott the PDGA doesnt do anything for local clubs. money goes to a compound i will probably never play and for a web page i do use but really what are they doing with all of the money being collected for all of the tournaments being played across the country? If you are not sanctioning a tournament i do think the cost of plastic should also come down.
is there an itemized spreadsheet for what the club is spending money on, also how much money does the club have? Just wondering?
Yes. That information is available at the club meetings.

not quite sure yet how the cash paying events turn out here yet, but i've read from other clubs that have them they seem to be more like a glorified 2 round mini.
I think if the TD treats it like a glorified mini then that's what it will be. If the TD markets the event and holds it to a high standard, then it will be a great tourney. I played in one in San Marcos that was a huge success.

Also just because the PDGA isn't involved doesn't mean the events will always be cash payout events. I still plan on doing merchandise payouts at most events. If players want to play for cash they should play Open. That is my philosiphy. Doing otherwise leads to too much bagging.

The goals of the events IMO are ...

Allow a tournament format for competitive play against peers of a similar skill set.
Fun
Supporting SADC and our goals of improving disc golf in San Antonio

Does your club have your own liability insurance policy? If not, the $100.00 you pay for sanctioning and insurance is a small price to pay compared to the amount of damage caused if something does go wrong and the city (and/or your club) gets sued.

If the city sees that your club is professional, follows regulations, pays for permits & insurance and that you have an international organization backing you, it may make it easier for them to approve additional courses and improvements in the future. You may want to look into being a Developemental Event with the PDGA Competition Endowment Program. If your events are designed to "promote awareness and growth of the sport" and "attract new members" they may qualify. Link to Competition Endowment Program: http://www.pdga.com/documents/competition-endowment-program-summary

Of course, you can raise even more money running guerilla events without permits & insurance. Just hope the Walk-a-thon or cross country meet aren't on the same weekend. :)






BTW - using a PDGA resource specifically set up for your local affiliate club while complaining the PDGA does nothing for you locally seems a bit incongruous.

BTW - using a PDGA resource specifically set up for your local affiliate club while complaining the PDGA does nothing for you locally seems a bit incongruous.

Never said the PDGA, "does nothing for you(us) locally". I said, I don't see the benefit. The club pays $25 a year for this thread, so we are free to discuss whatever we want.

You confuse "complaining" with a discussion. Without a discussion you can't come to a consensus.

I am sure you are a really nice person with good intentions and I harbor no ill will towards you. That siad, this is a discussion about a local issue for locals, not a nationwide discussion for all. For you, someone from California, to even offer an opinion in this thread seems a bit incongruous.

Does your club have your own liability insurance policy? If not, the $100.00 you pay for sanctioning and insurance is a small price to pay compared to the amount of damage caused if something does go wrong and the city (and/or your club) gets sued.

If the city sees that your club is professional, follows regulations, pays for permits & insurance and that you have an international organization backing you, it may make it easier for them to approve additional courses and improvements in the future.

Of course, you can raise even more money running guerilla events without permits & insurance. Just hope the Walk-a-thon or cross country meet aren't on the same weekend. :)

It seems inappropriate that you'd offer an opinion on the quality and professionalism with which our events our run. I take a lot of pride in the quality and professionalism of our events comparatively speaking. You obvisouly have a lot of disc golf experience and have a lot to offer but on this issue I think you are misguided. I invite you to come to San Antonio for one of our larger events.

I also really enjoyed your use of the term "guerilla events". As if there is something wrong running a non-sanctioned event. As if we are hiding in the shule at a local course and just ambush a group of disc golfers to get them to play in our event.

http://www.letsgodigital.org/images/artikelen/48/guerilla-union.jpg

Sorry, I did not intend to imply that your events were not professional. Simply that the city will see your club as "professional" when you include them in your event planning and offer to pay for permits and insurance. Some cities will even waive fees when you make them a co-sponsor or name the event after them.

I re-used the term guerrilla from DGRUS where there was a thread about this not too long ago. The term was used to describe tournaments that did not get park permits and insurance. I understand there are a lot of leagues, monthlies or minis that do not get insurance. That is simply not an option in my area for an organized tournament that hopes to draw players from across the region. If we want to make sure the course is closed to other users, (like fishing derbies, church carnivals and walk-a-thons), we have to purchase permits. Park permits for the 2009 So Cal Championships cost $1,266! PDGA sanctioning and insurance is a minor expense comparitively.

We do reserve the course for all our tournaments..sanctioned or not. San Antonio Parks and Recreation doesn't charge us anything because they know SADC takes care of the parks. We are always cleaning up the course casually or on work days. We are still gonna sanction a couple....just not all the ones we are going to run. Everything will be allright.;)

As far as I am concerned, it does not matter whether or not the tourney is sactioned or not. If the Old Lady lets me out of the house, I will play. I think that you should probably run your bigger tourneys sanctioned and the smaller ones non-sanctioned. That way you are still using the PDGA resources and keeping San Antonio on the map for a possible Worlds later down the road. On the other hand, there is no problem running some of the more local tourneys non-sanctioned because you are only pulling players from the area and you keep the local monies here. With you possibly running 8+ tourneys next year, the paperwork would be a nightmare to sanction all of them. There are always pros and cons for both sides of this discussion so just keep doing what you are doing because every tourney that you guys have ran so far has been Great. Except for the one I lost a bet and had to wear a dress to the Awards Ceremony. Keep up the good work.

Except for the one I lost a bet and had to wear a dress to the Awards Ceremony. Keep up the good work.

And I still have those pictures in a very very safe place!:eek:

Just keep doing what you are doing because every tourney that you guys have ran so far has been Great. Except for the one I lost a bet and had to wear a dress to the Awards Ceremony. Keep up the good work.


Thanks for the kind words.

And that was the funniest thing ever but I still think Gomez looked best in the outfit!

Those pics were funny. I might have to dig em out and post them here. Any side bets for next years Ice Bowl Charlie?:D

I really like the chance to play in PDGA Events... ratings.

But.. I am for keeping the money in the event. 1 or 2 PDGA events a year would be cool.

Based on the input received at the Club Meeting, in various discussions with local players, & on this board SADC's plan for 2010 will be to run both sanctioned and non-sanctioned events in 2010.

Among the list of sanctioned events will be ...
3rd Annual Bryan McClain Open (C-Tier) (October)
Innagural Alamo City Championship (B Tier) (December)

Among the list of non-sanctioned events will be ...
Naightmare @ Nani (January)
SADC Charity Ice Bowl (February)
The Alamo City Open (March)
Texas Hill Country Throwdown (April)
SADC Ace Race (September)
Oh Say Can UC (November)

I haven't spoken to 3rd Coast yet this year but they have run the San Antonio Bud Open in the past which I believe was in June. That event is typically sanctioned. In addition, I'm sure LODGA is planning on running LOSO in July. That will total 4 sanctioned events in the metro area and 6 non-sanctioned events.

I will be posting more information this week about these events, the dates, and the series :D.