I'd be curious to determine what the highest course Par has been for an 18-hole layout for a PDGA event.......

Is there a PDGA policy / rule / suggestion / recommendation for what the highest Course Par should be for an 18-hole layout for a PDGA event?

I've always been a fan of what Harold Duvall has done with the Winthrop Gold course at the USDGC event. Not only do i like that it is a Par 68 course, but Par there seems to be more meaningful there than what we typically see at higher-tier events. (Or at least it was meaningful until Josh Anthon's -15 in RD 4 of this year's USDGC). According to my very quick calculation, there were 308 rounds shot at this year's USDGC by players rated 1000 or higher. The average score for those 308 rounds was 65.42, or 2.58 strokes under Par. In my mind this makes par meaningful, and is the way I'd like to see scoring (relative to Par) at any higher-tier event I am TD'ing. I'm also a huge proponent of lots of Par 4's and Par 5's and Course Pars in the upper 60's and lower 70's.

I'm the TD for the 2010 Skylands Classic at Warwick (NY) National Tour (NT) event to be contested August 27 - 29, 2010.

I'm toying with some layout configurations for our NT event. Without playing my hand until my fellow Skylander club members buy into my sadism, let's just say that I'm contemplating a real rude beast of a layout. I'd like to know what kind of challenging beasts may have occurred in the past.....

Dan Doyle
PDGA #310
Warwick, NY

The highest SSA produced on an 18-hole course in sanctioned play is about 70 on the Ozark Mountain course owned by McCormack's family. Not sure what the par was at but the SSA tells the tale. Winthrop Gold is second with SSAs in the 69 area every so often depending on wind.

Note that Winthrop has seven reachable holes for most gold level players (1, 3, 6, 7, 13, 16 & 17) plus 10 available to crushers. In addition, hole 12 is an eagleable par 5. For those of us who do the long gold courses, I think our way to get to a par 70-72 course is to increase the number of par 5s or even a 6 in the mix and make sure there are still at least six or seven reachable holes like Winthrop. Par 3s in disc golf have a much richer design variety than in ball golf. The typical par 72 mix of 4 par 3s, 10 par 4s and 4 par 5s in ball golf doesn't seem to be as appropriate and simply as much fun as a mix more like 6-7 par 3s, 6-8 par 4s and 3-6 par 5s and 6s for high par disc golf layouts.

Iron Hill had a SSA of 71. Par was figured out per hole at 70 but one par 5 played a par 6.

That's good to hear. I'll have to update my list since Iron Hill is new since Ozark was on top.

Wasn't the PDGA SSA at Idlewild Longs (18 holes) 70? Or are you talking about 2009?

I checked another file good thru Aug 2008 and I've got Idlewild longs at 70.8 max. Looks like the official king is 75.2 SSA for Round 3 at Winthrop in 2004. Must have been windy although the SSA was 74 the day before. Here's the event link: http://www.pdga.com/tournament-results?TournID=4038&year=2009&include_ratings=1#Open

Chuck (or others in official capacities)....

back to one of my original questions for a moment.....

are there any PDGA recommendations or rules with regard to layout Pars for an NT or Major event? hypothetically speaking, if i wanted to create an 18-hole beast of a layout for an NT event that had 3 Par 3's; 9 Par 4's; and 6 Par 5's, which works out to a Par of 75, is there anything that prohibits me from creating such a beast?

i'm not sure if i'm willing to be that sadistic, but I have the opportunity to create such a rude beast at Warwick. Oh, and some of the holes on the Animal course portion of the layout (some holes would also be in Wolfe Woods) would have my version of Yellow Rope, which i would call "Animal Traps".

i wonder what the consensus would be among 1000-rated players if they were to play such a layout. would they like the challenge?

At this point there's only a minimum SSA (49), not a maximum. I think the consideration on the high end of SSAs is how long players will have to be on the course and how many players can get thru the course with that timing. Courses like Winthrop Gold take about 4 hours to play and are played one round per day. These are mostly Open players that in theory are in better shape to handle the ordeal. You're in great shape for a "medium old" guy. I would think having some of your cohorts test your level of "brutality" planned and determine the limit where it's still as fun as it can be in a tournament setting for the mix of divisions you expect would play it.

I've always been a fan of what Harold Duvall has done with the Winthrop Gold course at the USDGC event. Not only do i like that it is a Par 68 course, but Par there seems to be more meaningful there than what we typically see at higher-tier events.

I agree 1000%. I hate hate hate playing courses that are all par 3's with maybe 1-2 wimpy par 4s in the mix. I am not always the biggest fan of what I call fake OB which is just OB that is strung up for the sake of making it harder (of course I haven't actually seen Winthrop so my mind could be changed on that front). I am more of a fan of course that require a lot of course management to play well. If you use course management and play smart consistent golf you should be able to get par. Along those lines I am huge fan of par 4s and 5's that have a risk reward component. For example if you crush a drive to a increasingly narrow landing area and then execute an equally hard 2nd shot across some OB or something and make a nice putt that should be a birdie but if you say take the conservative approach and play 2 really smart short drives to position you to get up and down for a 4 that should be par. Seeing as your tourney is in the woods and mountains I am sure there is alot of opportunity for great holes like this. These types of holes also add a lot of scoring variation which is always good, right Chuck?

All wooded holes provide scoring variance. But well designed wooded holes do it well. :)

I think Ozark Mountain is a par 72, but like you said the SSA is just under that.

I like "fake OB" because it does just what you say. I think it does make a given course play more difficult, but not just for the sake of making it harder. If used correctly, it forces you to play the course management type of golf. You're not always blessed with an awesome course site for disc golf. Sometimes you have to work with the area available.

Willow Brook had an SSA of 70.22 for 18 holes on a cool, calm day. Not only did 1000 rated pros enjoy that course but also lower ams.

For tournaments we'd play 18 and 9. That was a full day and a lot of golf.

We would offer an Eagle Pool instead of an Ace Pool. I once eagled for the money with a 350 foot putt!