stack
Nov 06 2009, 12:52 PM
Need some thoughts on this scenario...

Hole has a basket with an OB stream running near it. There are inbounds on both sides of the stream.

Disc lands in stream but touching in bounds so the player isn't OB but an argument ensues on where he marks it. Its barely in bounds on the side closest to the basket. Where does he play it from X or Z? Would this change if he was surrounded by OB in the middle of the stream?

Crude text illustration below (B=basket, D=disc, ||=stream, Spots X & Z)... ignore the dots, they are used for spacing

....................| |
....................| |
....................| |
B ............X.. D | Z
....................| |
....................| |

johnbiscoe
Nov 06 2009, 12:57 PM
bring it in a meter and play from the basket side. if he were ob it would then depend upon where he went ob. options would be a meter relief from where it went ob or previous lie.

pterodactyl
Nov 06 2009, 01:08 PM
What J.B. said.

stack
Nov 06 2009, 01:34 PM
that's what I ruled (spot X) in our group and had to convince everyone of... it was my card and the guy that threw it had no clue... everyone else in the group said he should take it further away (not to mention they argued the relief toward the basket in general and didn't know about that rule along with others like not standing in the OB to throw... only taking 1m relief instead of enough to get you up the bank of the stream to flat ground... etc.)

then it was brought up that if it was in the middle that he certainly would have had to play it from the other side of the creek and I brought up the 'last spot in bounds' which they couldn't agree with... glad that didn't have to come up. In this case the disc went towards the basket and took a bad skip in the stream.

Mark_Stephens
Nov 06 2009, 01:40 PM
I will take it nobody had a rulebook as it clearly states what John says:

803.03.C. If the thrown disc comes to rest
in-bounds but within one meter of
an out-of-bounds line, the lie may be
relocated to any point on a one-meter
line that extends perpendicularly from
the nearest point on the out-of-bounds
line, and passes through the center of
the thrown disc. This holds true even if
the direction takes the lie closer to the
hole. See the following sections for other
considerations in marking a thrown disc.

Shags17
Nov 06 2009, 01:44 PM
Yup, J.B. is right. You take a meter relief perpendicular to the O.B. line, regardless if it puts your lie closer to the basket or not.

veganray
Nov 06 2009, 01:53 PM
Say the OB stream is <1m wide & the above scenario happens. 1m relief perpendicular to the OB line can be obtained either closer to or farther from (on the other side of the creek) the spot where the disc came to rest. Is it the player's option which direction to take the relief, or is one direction mandated? Any difference if the disc came to rest OB (in the middle of the <1m-wide OB creek) in the same scenario?

stack
Nov 06 2009, 01:53 PM
I usually carry one but didnt have my normal bag and nobody else in the 2 cards talking about it had one that I know of

The right ruling was made

cgkdisc
Nov 06 2009, 02:04 PM
Say the OB stream is <1m wide & the above scenario happens. 1m relief perpendicular to the OB line can be obtained either closer to or farther from (on the other side of the creek) the spot where the disc came to rest. Is it the player's option which direction to take the relief, or is one direction mandated? Any difference if the disc came to rest OB (in the middle of the <1m-wide OB creek) in the same scenario?
I would think last point IB determines the direction in either example. Since the disc is touching the bank then basket side would be the only side for relief. In the middle of the creek, you would go to the side where the disc was last over/on IB.

veganray
Nov 06 2009, 02:08 PM
You would think that or the rules prescribe that? I know in your mind the two are equivalent, but they aren't for us riff-raff.

gnduke
Nov 06 2009, 02:15 PM
1m relief is perpendicular to the OB line (and must result in lie that is inbounds).

In this case (less than 1m wide OB area), either direction meets the requirement of the rule. If the OB area were wider than 1m then there would be no option.

My question would be that once the lie was relocated to the side away from the basket, would it be eligible for 1m relief from the OB line on the side away from the basket?

exczar
Nov 06 2009, 02:30 PM
I'll buy into the idea that the 1M relief could go both ways from the OB line, if both ways yield a legal (IB) stance, but I can't go with getting more relief from the further OB line.

Rule 803.03C references the "up to 1m" relief as being from where the thrown disc has come to rest. If you land right in front of a 1/2m wide OB strip, you can go back 1m, which would put you 1/2 behind the strip, but you can go no farther back, because that would put the mark beyond the 1m limit stipulated in the Rule.

Target -------|<--- 1 meter----->|Disc| 1/2 m OB |<--1/2 meter-->|

Anywhere in the 1m closer to the target or the 1/2m on the other side of the OB would be OK.

veganray
Nov 06 2009, 02:32 PM
My question would be that once the lie was relocated to the side away from the basket, would it be eligible for 1m relief from the OB line on the side away from the basket?
My thought is no. 803.03C:
If the thrown disc comes to rest in-bounds but within one meter of an out-of-bounds line, the lie may be relocated to any point on a one-meter line that extends perpendicularly from the nearest point on the out-of-bounds line, and passes through the center of the thrown disc. This holds true even if the direction takes the lie closer to the hole.
reads to me that the player only gets one crack at the relief repositioning of the lie. Once the "new" lie (after the OB) is established in accordance with 803.09B:
A player whose disc is considered out-of-bounds shall receive one penalty throw. The player may elect to play the next shot from:
(1) The previous lie as evidenced by the marker disc or, if the marker disc has been moved from an approximate lie, as agreed to by the majority of the group or an official; or (2) A lie that is up to one meter away from and perpendicular to the point where the disc last crossed into out-of-bounds, as determined by a majority of the group or an official. This holds true even if the direction takes the
lie closer to the hole; or (3) Within the designated Drop Zone, if provided.
, that lie is no longer the result of a "thrown disc" & is not then eligible for additional OB relief.

cgkdisc
Nov 06 2009, 02:52 PM
<--- 1 meter----->|Disc| 1/2 m OB |<--1/2 meter-->|----------Target

I'd love to see the group's reaction when taking my relief across the OB toward the target when the opposite of Exczar's example occurs.

I think you have to allow "multiple" relocations from OB. For example, when OB creates an inside 90 degree angle and the disc D is in the corner with OB to the left and back, you have to allow the player to move forward up to 1m and also to the right up to 1m to position X

OB | ..............X
OB |
OB |
OB | D
OB |___________
OB OB OB OB OB

davidsauls
Nov 06 2009, 04:11 PM
Stack

Quite an accomplishment, at your level, to gather so many people together who don't know that you can take relief towards the basket. What would they have said if it wasn't a creek with IB on the other side, but a lake with nowhere to go but towards the basket?

DShelton
Nov 06 2009, 06:58 PM
<--- 1 meter----->|Disc| 1/2 m OB |<--1/2 meter-->|----------Target

I'd love to see the group's reaction when taking my relief across the OB toward the target when the opposite of Exczar's example occurs.


I'd have to say not allowed toward the target here since the spirit of the rule is so that you are not standing in an OB area. Since you have room behind the disc to make your stance then the repositioning is not needed to make a legal stance. Granted, if a person felt that they could only win by lawyering the rules, then they have every "legal" right to do so, but it would be a little unethical.


I think you have to allow "multiple" relocations from OB. For example, when OB creates an inside 90 degree angle and the disc D is in the corner with OB to the left and back, you have to allow the player to move forward up to 1m and also to the right up to 1m to position X

OB | ..............X
OB |
OB |
OB | D
OB |___________
OB OB OB OB OB

This I can agree with. You would get 1 meter from both OB areas