Which of these works better for you? I found that I love the star xclaiber much more than its champion counterpart and I was wondering if anyone has an opinion on which plastic is better for the destroyers. Please let me know your input.

Great thread -- I'd love to hear from Destroyer throwers contrasting the different flight characteristics of this mold in Champion vs. Star plastic.

I throw Star and love it but am wondering whether Champion will be more or less high and low speed stable?

For me the champion destroyer is more high speed stable. The champion glow is even more high speed stable than champion. Star is also me favorite for destroyers 170g-175g for accuracy and distance.

Do you mean "stable" or "overstable"?

I found the star very reliable for hyzer to flat distance while I have to get over on a champ to get it to keep from crashing to the ground (my champs were fundraiser plastic haven't thrown the production plastic). I haven't really found the champ plastic as consistant as the star for distance drivers. But for my fairway drivers I prefer the champ plastic.

Do you mean "stable" or "overstable"?

There are very few drivers that are high speed overstable. Ram, Whippet, Viper, XTreme are all like that. I can't think of a modern driver that's high speed overstable, or at least one that's supposed to be HS overstable (molding abnormalities aside).

I have yet to throw a Champion Destroyer but my experience with Destroyers is just not that great.

I've thrown Pro, DX, and Star Destroyers and I've lost them all within a few days of getting them.

Pro and Star Destroyers seem to have a high speed turn of -3 or -4 to me. My main driver is a Star Wraith and when I throw a Destroyer like I throw a Wraith, they just turn over and roll. My Star Sidewinder is more high speed stable :P

The DX Destroyer that I had was more high speed stable but it felt like it didn't fly as far as a Wraith with the effort it required, and it turned over too much when compared to a Boss.

I've just had terrible experiences with Destroyers so I've been reluctant to pick up a Champion Destroyer. Once I find a disc golf store in my area I might pick one up...

I agree that Champ Destroyers are more high speed stable and low speed overstable than Stars. For my money, I'd rather buy something a little faster (Champ Boss) than a Champ Destroyer, so I don't have to work as hard flipping it over to realize the distance potential of the mold (Destroyer). Out of the box, a max weight Star Destroyer will stay flipped when thrown on an anny line for ~80% of its flight, with a nice long hyzer finish. I still prefer Pro Destroyers to Stars for pure distance, but the Star is very consistent when you just need to hit a fairway.

If all those Destroyers were turning over on you, it might not have been the discs' fault.

My high-speed drivers, in order of most to least stable (when lightly seasoned) is:
Eco Star XC (175)-> Champ Boss (175)-> Star Orc (175)-> Star Destroyer (175)-> Star Wraith 12X (175)-> Pro Destroyer (172)-> ESP Force (172)

Hope this helps.

I agree with most of the posts. I carry three destroyers (Star, Champ, Pro). The Star is my primary, no wind/downwind - I seem to get the most D out of it. The champ i use with a headwind, seems to hold the line into a moderate wind better. The Pro I use as a tweener.

well look at Avery, hes throwin Domey Destroyers over the new Boss, its slower and thats a good thing. Slower means more control. Its still wicked fast so your not missin out, its fast, long and more controllable than Boss. Domey Pop Top CFR (champion) are best. Star can beat in and flip in wind. Champion Domey are stable to overstable and take along time to beat in. They are more consistant and still fly along...long way. In tournys i need a disc i can trust, i cant trust Star high speed cause they change to quick. I promise if you try a CFR DOMEY destroyer you will love it, and it will do the same thing over and over again. all the 1030 rated Pros are not using Boss's I suggest you learn from the best and throw Destroyers.....

all the 1030 rated Pros are not using Boss's I suggest you learn from the best and throw Destroyers.....

No offense to anyone, but I dare say that the people reading this MB don't throw anything like a 1030 pro and therefore should not be looking at their bags for disc selection advice. Disc golf is about finding what works best for you, not trying to imitate other people, let alone those at the pinnacle of form and power. If you are curious about disc selection you should observe someone of a similar power level to yourself and what they are throwing because this is going to tell you a lot more about how a disc will fly for you. The above statement is like saying wearing a certain player's signature basketball shoe will make you a better player. Its the Indian and not the arrow...BTW, I was warming up with Ken Climo earlier this year before a tournament and he aced a 400'+ hole with a Boss...I'm pretty sure its still in his bag. Feldberg has Bosses as well. In fact, there is no single disc that all top players have in their bags because everyone throws differently.

^^Agreed.

95% of players should not "look at Avery" when deciding which disc to throw. He could backhand roll a Firebird if he wanted to. Mortals cannot.

Promises should not be made when discussing the flight characteristics of a certain disc. Each person will have a different result with disc "x", so talking about trends or generalizations is more helpful.

I suggest doing just what mikeP said- find someone with similar power and technique as yourself and try the discs they're having the most luck with (even try the discs in their bag if they'll let you). This will tell you what you want to know.

all cool for you i guess.. but for 1 i do have the power to torque the disc and I do learn a ton from watching Feld and Averys bag. I can flip about what they can flip. I am almost a 1000 rated player, only needing a few tournys. I have improved my distance and control by throwing what the big dogs throw. They are valid to learn from when patterns from all the top pors start forming. If they all throw the same thing there is validity to it. They get disc for free and can throw anything they want, so they are throwing the best of the best. And any amature player wanting to get better should not throw what he wants because it works with his form>>>> NO. He show try throwing what the top pros throw and change his form to make the disc work. If you do that it will make you better, Dave Feld flat release and most pros will tell you all of us need to learn a flat re;ease. So if you throw what they thrwo it will force you to learn flat release. hence you will get more accurate and then distance will follow. I have done this and can throw 450...and thats not internet bragging, i really can. its from tweaking my technique to be more like the top pros. And yes Ken is chunking a boss, but not more than his destroyer, him and Feld are still playing and learning the Boss, they are not trusting it yet, its to unpredictable.
Im not trying to argue, but your mind set is thinking inside the Box
think outside the box, if they win NT's and you are only 900 rated local boy, then it is not them who needs to change. If you learn to use the clubs Tiger Woods / Ken Climo/ Dave Feld uses and you learn to do what they do with the Disc then you will become better, I thought that was common sense.

I have learned leaps and bounds about disc and flights by watching the contents of top pros bags. I dont understand the ignorance (not speaking about you) of locals am s at my course who throw way to many diff disc in there bag and get frustrated cause they never master any 1 shot. They stay around 900 and less rating. Look at what top pros throw, find a pro that seems to throw like your technique, you can find 1. then see what he throws, it can help your game. Climo, Feld, Avery, Shultz all have similar type disc in bag....learn from the best. All good players learn from a Master. If you try and learn on your own with out taking the consideration of what the top pros are doing i think that would be the hard way to improve your game at this sport.
but keep doing what your doing and Ill see who is closer to winning worlds in 3 years.
The Pros throw the Best disc on the market, cause they are the best golfers. I think they know what disc do better than we do. Then atleast try to throw what they throw if after a month it has not helped you, go back to your disc ideas....

[QUOTE=mrspank;1398664]^^Agreed.

95% of players should not "look at Avery" when deciding which disc to throw. He could backhand roll a Firebird if he wanted to. Mortals cannot.

Man i love you, but thats a stupid mind set to have, i know all are joking, but hes mortal, and we can beat him. Top pros dont think anyone is unbeatable, thats why they are pros. I have beat many good pros in B tiers and not until i realized that they WERE BEAT ABLE...get it, its in your mind. Golf is 90% mental. Avery can be beat, and I can throw a teebird almost as far as he does. By the way discgolf is not won by who can throw the farthest.
Yes you should look at Avery and all other top sponsored players when deciding disc. Yes. Its a great Idea. If you cant throw a teebird like avery it does not mean you suck, or teebirds suck, it means change you throwing until you can huck a teebird similar to Avery, when you can you will have learned and improved your game. Surely that makes since to your common sense brain?????
all pro athletes study the best in there sport.
Whay shouldnt we?
It has helped me and guys around me that Im coaching also....

Promises should not be made when discussing the flight characteristics of a certain disc. Each person will have a different result with disc "x", so talking about trends or generalizations is more helpful.


Love ya hooker, but yes promises can be made, Look at the trends of Pros, they throw certain disc cause its the best disc to throw for those shots. Each person does not have different results. If an AM player cant throw a teebird as far as a pro...(happens all the time) he will go buy a Boss so he can throw 400 ft.! STUPID>
cuase he has not learned anything about disc control or angle of release. come one Ben, If any am who like Innova will go get a Teebird...and throw it for every shot. throw it for hyzers, anhyzers, long s shots, sidearm. As he learns the disc and can learn to throw it almost as far as he can throw a Boss, then your learning how to become a Pro. All top pros that we look up to can throw a Teebird (or similar) very very far and controlled. Then all AM's should learn the same thing. I promise it works. It worked for me and has worked for 7 am's i have taught the same thing. I learned this lesson from John Houck, keep it simple.

No offense to anyone, but I dare say that the people reading this MB don't throw anything like a 1030 pro and therefore should not be looking at their bags for disc selection advice. Disc golf is about finding what works best for you, not trying to imitate other people, let alone those at the pinnacle of form and power. If you are curious about disc selection you should observe someone of a similar power level to yourself and what they are throwing because this is going to tell you a lot more about how a disc will fly for you. The above statement is like saying wearing a certain player's signature basketball shoe will make you a better player. Its the Indian and not the arrow...BTW, I was warming up with Ken Climo earlier this year before a tournament and he aced a 400'+ hole with a Boss...I'm pretty sure its still in his bag. Feldberg has Bosses as well. In fact, there is no single disc that all top players have in their bags because everyone throws differently.

Ok to a point, But its the whole thinking thats wrong. We do not need to learn how a disc will fly for ME, that teaches me nothing. But go learn how to throw a disc that Climo throws. Learn to throw a ROC the way the he does, and you have learn arm speed and technique from on of the Top pros in our sport. Now you are an amazing Roc thrower. The do that with another disc and In a year you will have learned amazing technique.
Stop learning Disc..they dont make you better, Learn Technique, learn how to throw and it wont matter what you put in your hand...you will be a Pro.
It took me 2 yrs to learn how to throw a Roc, i hated it, but what i did not realize, was my grip and arm speed were getting better, then i went back to my high speed drivers, and now with my new found roc shot, i can throw drivers over 420ft. wow all cause i learned better technique like the top pros.

[QUOTE=mrspank;1398664]^^Agreed.

95% of players should not "look at Avery" when deciding which disc to throw. He could backhand roll a Firebird if he wanted to.

Thats why only 5% can beat avery...cause 95% arent learning from him and think they can never do what he does. He does not do anything you or i cannot do. Explain how a barely 5ft tall Japanese guy out drove Avery in Distance contest last year???
Explain that, i guarantee he didn't think avery was untouchable.

sorry I love all you guys, im just passionate about helping guys unleash there potential. and im tired of people thinking top pros are above us, they are not. we can all learn the technique of top pros.
and thats exactly what we should be doing, learning from them, not going through all the disc on our own thinking we know best for ourselves.

"I am almost a 1000 rated player"

And that's the problem. You have reached the upper echelon of our sport (>1000 rating or approaching that #) because you have the potential to do so and have worked hard to realize that goal. But that doesn't mean that what worked for you will work for someone else. Not all golfers have the potential to reach 1000, and that's okay. Improvement comes with practice, regardless of which disc you're practicing with. The reason learning to throw a Teebird or Roc or Aviar will speed your improvement is because they are meant to be thrown straight, and throwing discs straight is good for your game. There's not a top-rated pro out there who's going to tell someone "learn to throw a Destroyer and you will be better." Let me know if you find one.

"All good players learn from a Master."

Ask Dick Fosbury about that. I bet he'd having a differing opinion.

"but keep doing what your doing and Ill see who is closer to winning worlds in 3 years."

I'm gonna go on a limb and say that'll be you. I have a job that keeps me at the hospital for 80hrs each week, so disc golf is an outlet. Not that I don't want to improve, but it's difficult to reach the 1000+ mark when you play once every 2 weeks.

"The Pros throw the Best disc on the market, cause they are the best golfers."

The point is that they didn't get there throwing the discs they currently throw. They got there by learning with beginner discs, then slowly graduating to more "advanced" molds as their power and technique allowed. It's not about forcing a disc to comply.

"Stop learning Disc..they dont make you better, Learn Technique, learn how to throw and it wont matter what you put in your hand...you will be a Pro."

Not by a long-shot. Just as becoming a professional cyclist, basketball player or skeet shooter requires not only hard work and some luck but POTENTIAL, becoming a top disc golfer is not guaranteed no matter how hard some people are willing to work. And they shouldn't not be promised those kinds of results. Especially from a coach. Be realistic and your athletes will thank you for it.

well said, well said, i cant argue with that. And i hope I can compete, 2 kids a wife and a career its hard to be a touring pro like the single guys who can travel weekly....must be nice.
I guess i just want to tell young am players who are sittin around discussing which destroyers to throw..to go and throw teebirds, buzz's and roc's and get better, thats what i mean.

well said, well said, i cant argue with that. And i hope I can compete, 2 kids a wife and a career its hard to be a touring pro like the single guys who can travel weekly....must be nice.
I guess i just want to tell young am players who are sittin around discussing which destroyers to throw..to go and throw teebirds, buzz's and roc's and get better, thats what i mean.

i would say a Destroyer would be better for them into a headwind.

i thought this thread was about the differences between the plastics in terms of flight characteristics. I have 500 ft power but tend towards more hyzer and less off-axis torque than most. it sounds like the Champs are more resistant to flipping. that leads me to believe it would be a good choice for me in strong headwind conditions or when i want to throw hard but avoid going to the right. I like the Star a lot and have yet to throw a Champ. Anyone got one to trade?

Per Innova and their flight Chart, DX Destroyer are Farthest(least loyal as it will become flippy), Pro Destroyer would be next Longest with tons of glide., (but less dependable than star and champ) .
Star Destroyer still good glide, more dependable, but still ages and becomes unpredictable.
Champ Destroyer most dependable, does the same thing most often, trustworthy.
The thing is I have found great distance and glide and dependability with Pop Top real Domey CFR Champion Destroyers. thats my money driver. They get all the distance of Pro..... but i can trust them in wind. if it gets to windy i throw the XC

i would say a Destroyer would be better for them into a headwind.

i thought this thread was about the differences between the plastics in terms of flight characteristics. I have 500 ft power but tend towards more hyzer and less off-axis torque than most. it sounds like the Champs are more resistant to flipping. that leads me to believe it would be a good choice for me in strong headwind conditions or when i want to throw hard but avoid going to the right. I like the Star a lot and have yet to throw a Champ. Anyone got one to trade?

I have a Champ to trade what do you have to trade? It's a Clear 175 Asia Open stamp.

what do you want for a trade? normally I like bright colors which stand out (not green) and don't throw collector's discs. I have some first run Orions (LS & LF) in Star (sirius) plastic if that interests you... (or anybody)

Acquired a Champ Destroyer recently, and while it is not at all broken in it seems much more high and low speed stable than my Stars...

i envision it will work nicely as my max stability driver for headwinds or when i need to be sure I don't stray too far right (backhand) or too far left (sidearm)

dude, aviar X as it beats in it becomes more MONEY. it is sooo long and crazy predictable for a high speed driver. it will break in to not so overstable, and thats when its money. have patience you will love it.

yeah, beaten-goodness for sure.

if you need a good wind fighter, try to find a glow champ destroyer. they just dont want to fly at all, and in a head wind, its almost as if they wind isnt there.

I throw a lot of star destroyers and love them. I got a 169g champ destroyer last year at San Marcos' Ice Bowl and didn't throw it until this fall when it became production. Now I need more!!! I love this particular destroyer. It is not too overstable with great glide. All other recent production champs I've even heard about are heavy or max (175g). I heartilly recommend a 169g champ. Come on Innova, crank 'em out and I will buy them. I used the 169 a lot at the Chuck Freedlend Memorial in Vacaville. Lots of long mostly open holes. Did well. Lost it in a pond on hole 6 in first round. Got it back at end of the round, and aced a temp hole with it in the second round! Money! Great disc. I want to try a heavier one that Ims sure will be much more overstable, but I use 172g Boss for those needs.