korybski
Oct 05 2009, 02:54 PM
While playing in a doubles tournament this weekend an interesting scenario came up that I�m not sure the rules address.

In best/worst/tough shot, could the first partner throw from behind the thrown disc, and the second partner chose to place a marker to throw his shot from?

While playing best shot format, the shot that we chose to take happened to come to rest beside a tree. My partner kept the thrown disc where it was and took his shot. When choosing my stance, I realized that I could get a better stance if I placed a marker and picked up the thrown disc. After a casual 30 second discussion, I opted to use the thrown disc (which was never picked up) to prevent any confusion. We meant to propose this question to the TD afterwards, but forgot all about it.

exczar
Oct 05 2009, 03:29 PM
I would say that, once the first player has thrown using the previously thrown disc as the mark, then the second player would have to as well.

You need to talk to your partner about such things before the first throw is taken.

bruce_brakel
Oct 05 2009, 03:36 PM
I agree with Mr. Burns. Let me see if the doubles rules address this at all.

Patrick P
Oct 05 2009, 03:37 PM
I would say that, once the first player has thrown using the previously thrown disc as the mark, then the second player would have to as well.

You need to talk to your partner about such things before the first throw is taken.
I concur.

bruce_brakel
Oct 05 2009, 03:43 PM
There is nothing in the doubles rules about this. The doubles rules were written before the mini-optional rule was adopted. There should be a rule.

korybski
Oct 05 2009, 04:29 PM
We had discussed it before he threw and decided that our best opportunity was with him throwing from the thrown disc. The thought just came up when it was my turn and realized that there may not be anything in the rules that says I could not then put down a marker disc before my throw. However, I do think it may go against the 'spirit of game'.

exczar
Oct 05 2009, 07:00 PM
Is there anything in what is referred to as the "doubles" rules stating that both partners need to throw from the same mark? If so, I don't think that using the thrown disc AND the mark of the thrown disc would be considered the same mark.

cgkdisc
Oct 05 2009, 09:10 PM
It's indirectly discussed in the rules. If the partner playing first throws from the "wrong" lie their team was planning to throw from, the second player can throw from the "correct" lie but that second player's throw must be used. I could see that being extended to this scenario where if the player throwing second, marks the lie with a mini instead of using the disc on the ground, then their throw would have to be used.

stack
Oct 05 2009, 11:03 PM
great question Jay... that came up a few times that I know of. another instance is when its partner A's disc they are throwing from... they use it instead of a mini and after player B throws player A realizes he 'needs' that disc.

this would essentially be changing our spot right? same as if your partner takes a full meter from OB ... throws... then you decide you want to move the mark closer to the OB line.

Alacrity
Oct 06 2009, 10:51 AM
Okay, according to 803.03 the mini is to mark the lie, or you may use the lie as the mark, once established, that is it. Doubles is different in that in some cases either lie could be used, or as has been discussed before in best shot either lie may be used (not in worst shot or alternate). However, once the lie has been established, that is it. If the first player threw then clearly the lie had been determined for that disc.

Here is another way of looking at it, once you set your mini down and pick up the disc, can you set the disc back down? No, setting the mini determined the lie. Similarly, once player one threw from behind the disc, the lie was set.

cgkdisc
Oct 06 2009, 11:10 AM
From the Best Shot Doubles rules:

"If the first player throws from the wrong lie, the second player may still throw from the correct lie."

So, technically the lie isn't permanently fixed after the first player on the team throws.

Alacrity
Oct 06 2009, 11:30 AM
Chuck,

I agree with your statement, but my repsonse presupposes that the first throw is also "potentially" wanted. So I guess if you and your partner have already agreed that the first throw is going to be discarded then yes, however I don't think that was the intent of the question.


From the Best Shot Doubles rules:

"If the first player throws from the wrong lie, the second player may still throw from the correct lie."

So, technically the lie isn't permanently fixed after the first player on the team throws.

gnduke
Oct 06 2009, 11:35 AM
Yes, the second player may choose a different lie with the idea that the first player threw from the wrong lie, but they are removing the first player's throw from competition by doing so. If the first player had a really bad shot and the second player has a much better chance moving forward 12 inches, then maybe it should be considered. I am not quite sure what situation the rule was intended to cover.

NOHalfFastPull
Oct 06 2009, 11:36 AM
Chuck has never let the intent of the question
get in the way of one of his "diversionary answers".

:)
s timm

veganray
Oct 06 2009, 12:06 PM
http://groundnotes.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/redherring2.jpg

cgkdisc
Oct 06 2009, 12:15 PM
The first question of the original post asked if the rules addressed this situation. I posted what the doubles rules say about Best Shot when the second thrower wants to throw from an alternate "legit" lie for the team. Forfeiting the first throw is the "penalty" if the second player wants to throw from another of the team's lies.

exczar
Oct 06 2009, 12:58 PM
As far as using the "wrong lie" phrase during best shot, I don't think that is applicable in order for the second player to choose another lie.

There are two valid, or "right" lies:

1) Behind the previously thrown disc;
2) Behind a marker disc used to mark the previously thrown disc.

If the first player throws from behind the previously thrown disc, I cannot understand any logic in being able to declare that the throw was taken from a "wrong lie", since it was a valid, or a "non-wrong" lie when it was used.

There are, I believe, two ways to establish a lie:

1) Mark the previously thrown disc;
2) Throw from behind the previously thrown disc

and once a lie is established, either before the first player throws by use of the marker disc, or by the action of the first player throwing from behind the previously thrown disc, the second player _must_ throw from that lie (unless of course, it is best shot format and the team wants to use the first shot).

cgkdisc
Oct 06 2009, 01:09 PM
Bill, what would a 'wrong lie' be if it's not either the other partner's lie or the lie before the partner marks it with a mini? (It certainly can't be a lie from the other team's disc or that would be a penalty.) Both would appear to be "not the correct lie."

exczar
Oct 06 2009, 01:27 PM
Chuck,

IMO, a "wrong lie" is exactly what you stated, "not either from the other partner's lie or the lie before the partner marks it with a mini".

Are you saying that there is a wrong lie that is not a penalty (or warning)? You stated that it (a wrong lie) couldn't be from the other team's disc because that would be a penalty. I'm trying to follow you, but I guess I have some limitation that is not allowing me to do so. You have quotes on the phrase "not the correct lie". Is that phrase found somewhere in the Rules (or "doubles rules")? If so, please direct me toward the source, so that I may read it in context, and that might help me better understand your viewpoint.

Forgive me, but I feel that we may be heading toward the "foot fault vs practice throw" discussion that we have previously attempted to address here, but I reserve the right to be wrong.

rhett
Oct 06 2009, 01:42 PM
Don't let common sense come into this discussion.

It seems pretty obvious to me that this "doubles rule" is in place so that if the first player throws from "not a possible correct lie" (which would be a practice throw penalty for throwing from "not your lie") or another team's lie (which would include a 2-throw penalty with no warning), then the second player does not have to throw from the penalty wrong lie area. The 2nd player can throw from a proper lie without penalty, but you have to take that throw.

If you are playing best shot and the first player plays from one of the two discs, I don't see how anyone with any integrity can argue that one of the two is the "wrong lie". Maybe the 1st palyer didn't listen to the 2nd. Maybe a mistake was made is choosing the better lie, but a lie was properly selected and the team just has to live with the mistake.

I get tired of people working the rules just to get over.

cgkdisc
Oct 06 2009, 02:03 PM
It's my understanding having dealt with Houck and the doubles rules in the past that the wording was placed in there to allow the partner to play from the other lie as long as the first player's throw was not used, not for the reason Rhett indicated such as the first player making a throw from any wrong lie and the penalty not counting as long as the second player made a throw from a correct lie.

Alacrity
Oct 06 2009, 04:46 PM
Chuck,

I am going to call foul. If you go back and read the particular doubles rule, the fist statement takes preference:

A lie that is picked up without being marked is gone forever; the team must throw from the other lie. If the second lie is picked up, it must be replaced in accordance with PDGA rules. All lies must be marked according to PDGA rules.

Since the players were not argueing about which lie to use, the first disc had already been discarded. You cannot argue wrong lie. Once the lie is determined, there is no wrong lie. Anything else is in violation of 803.03 G and is effectively a stance violation.


It's my understanding having dealt with Houck and the doubles rules in the past that the wording was placed in there to allow the partner to play from the other lie as long as the first player's throw was not used, not for the reason Rhett indicated such as the first player making a throw from any wrong lie and the penalty not counting as long as the second player made a throw from a correct lie.

cgkdisc
Oct 06 2009, 11:21 PM
You can call foul but I'm just stating what my understanding was for the intent of the wrong lie wording. Houck is the one who wrote those rules and dealt with them for all those years and would be the one to ask.

bruce_brakel
Oct 07 2009, 02:16 AM
Obviously the special rules for doubles are as well written as the rest of the rules. Maybe we could leave it at that.

unclemercy
Oct 07 2009, 11:24 AM
professional disc golf association suggested guidelines for doubles format play.

johnrhouck
Oct 13 2009, 12:27 PM
There is nothing in the doubles rules about this. The doubles rules were written before the mini-optional rule was adopted. There should be a rule.

Bruce is correct. This is not really a doubles question, in my opinion. As far as doubles is concerned, once one player throws, the team has chosen that lie.

The only question is whether both players used the same lie -- just marking it differently -- or if they used different lies.

Discuss.

exczar
Oct 13 2009, 01:58 PM
John,

Thanks for chiming in, since you are "Mr Doubles".<O:p</O:p
<O:p</O:p
Your last sentence made me think of the situation in a slightly different way. I think that we should be able to agree that, if a lie is marked with a marker disc, then the previously thrown disc (PTD) cannot be replaced and used to take a legal stance behind, since the Rules of Play prohibit that (803.03:"The marker may not be moved until the throw is released.”)


But you are saying, if the first thrower uses the PTD as the marker disc, can the second player choose to mark the disc with a mini marker disc, and use that disc as the mark?


That is a question worthy of discussion, and I have to admit that I do not have a strong opinion either way, but I do lean toward having both player use the same mark, be it the PTD or the marker disc. My thought behind this is that, I believe, the allowance of using the PTD as the mark was a speed of play issue, and since doubles has other things going on that significantly impact the speed of play negatively, like talking strategy, the use of the PTD will not have a significant impact on the speed of play.

A stronger thought, however, and I think that you, John, can speak to this, is that I believe it is in the SOTG that both players throw from the same exact spot, not just the same lie, which can possibly be marked in two different ways for the same throw by two different players on the same team.

gnduke
Oct 14 2009, 02:26 PM
I would disagree with the semantics of the situation.

First you must have the previously thrown disc at rest on the playing surface. It is just a previously thrown disc until a lie is established by placing a mini marker or using the previously thrown disc as a marker disc (803.03.A).

Once the previously thrown disc becomes a marker disc it cannot be moved or altered until the throw is released/completed (803.03.A & 803.07.B).

The next question is whether each player makes an individual throw or they are considered one extended throw as it relates to marking rules.

LastBoyScout
Oct 30 2009, 06:18 PM
It's indirectly discussed in the rules. If the partner playing first throws from the "wrong" lie their team was planning to throw from, the second player can throw from the "correct" lie but that second player's throw must be used. I could see that being extended to this scenario where if the player throwing second, marks the lie with a mini instead of using the disc on the ground, then their throw would have to be used.

that there is a loop hole im sure people will jump through.

wait by their disc while their partner throws at his. his shot turns out bad and then they yell "wrong disc you idiot! im the captain and i chose to play from this disc, not that one."

just saying... not suggesting...

on a side note, a glow round of worst shot doubles is a real test of skill and trust in your shot.

cgkdisc
Oct 30 2009, 06:34 PM
wait by their disc while their partner throws at his. his shot turns out bad and then they yell "wrong disc you idiot! im the captain and i chose to play from this disc, not that one."
There's little benefit in that move unless the player at the other lie knows he can make a better throw from that one than the one where his partner threw a bad shot. Then the pressure is on because his shot is the one that will be counted no matter what. The only time I could maybe see an advantage is when partners throw opposite handed. The one partner throws from the lie where he has the best setup. He messes up and the other partner then throws from the other lie with less to lose and has a better stance for his throwing motion. Usually in those situations, I've seen the partner with the less desireable stance throw first with the one having a better stance throwing second as backup.

eupher61
Nov 21 2009, 12:17 AM
The next question is whether each player makes an individual throw or they are considered one extended throw as it relates to marking rules.

AHA! the point is raised. Doubles is two throws, not just one.

Let's extend it backwards, to singles play, in this scenario: Joe throws OB, having used his PTD as marker. Choosing to rethrow from his previous lie, he can't decide to put the mini down, can he? That's not the same lie.

Same in doubles. Right?

eupher61
Nov 21 2009, 12:24 AM
Chuck answered this in the thread about the lie relative to the 10m circle.

he said
2. is the easy one. The reference point for making the call on inside or outside 10m is the back edge of your marker whether it be the original thrown disc or a mini, not where you choose to stand within the 30cm behind it. And yes, your mark is different if you use a mini versus leaving your disc on the ground which becomes the marker and you get the full 30cm behind it. (emphasis added)

Thus, Chuck, you state that the mini and the PTD are different marks. Different lies. Therefore, doubles players should use the same mark.

cgkdisc
Nov 21 2009, 12:42 AM
The issue was whether the doubles rules allowed the partner to play from another lie such as using a marker after the first player threw from behind the PTD. The answer is a qualified "yes" but the second player's throw MUST be used under the written doubles option where the partner is able to claim the new mark was really "the correct" lie for the team all along.

As you state, the partner would be required to play from behind the PTD IF (s)he wanted their partner's throw to still be considered just in case of a shank.

vadiscgolf
Nov 23 2009, 12:44 AM
I think it should be the same mark, players should agree whether to mark or leave the thrown disc. I don't mind the fact that thrower 2 marks the same disc if for better footing, but if you can't go back from mini to disc for footing then you shouldn't be able to change either once thrown from.