bob
Sep 28 2009, 11:50 AM
The situation that I am asking for feedback on is this,

Slightly off the fairway (15'?), my disc came to rest in some thick schule. The spotter on the hole pointed to the area I entered and my group spotted the disc in amongst the thick branches.
These branches were a mix of live and dead branches that were worked into a thick web that you could, and had too, walk upon to get into the area.
My disc was resting on this web and I took a stance behind it to attempt my throw. I was still a foot or so above the ground but there was no way to work any supporting point down to the ground. Not without damaging the branches anyway.

Do you think this is a legal stance?

Is a bridge a legal playing surface?

Bob

bruce_brakel
Sep 28 2009, 11:55 AM
The situation that I am asking for feedback on is this,

Slightly off the fairway (15'?), my disc came to rest in some thick schule. The spotter on the hole pointed to the area I entered and my group spotted the disc in amongst the thick branches.
These branches were a mix of live and dead branches that were worked into a thick web that you could, and had too, walk upon to get into the area.
My disc was resting on this web and I took a stance behind it to attempt my throw. I was still a foot or so above the ground but there was no way to work any supporting point down to the ground. Not without damaging the branches anyway.

Do you think this is a legal stance?

Is a bridge a legal playing surface?

BobThe rules do not define the playing surface. It is up to the TD to define the playing surfaces for things like bridges, picnic tables, logs, woodpiles, leaf piles, matted vegetation, etc.

If the group let you play from there, I'd be fine with it. You played it where you found it. If the group said that the brush pile was a solid obstacle and gave you free relief straight back and you didn't play a provisional, I'm fine with that too.

discette
Sep 28 2009, 12:12 PM
The rules do not define the playing surface. It is up to the TD to define the playing surfaces for things like bridges, picnic tables, logs, woodpiles, leaf piles, matted vegetation, etc.

If the group let you play from there, I'd be fine with it. You played it where you found it. If the group said that the brush pile was a solid obstacle and gave you free relief straight back and you didn't play a provisional, I'm fine with that too.

I agree with Bruce. I would also be OK with you taking casual relief and relocating up to five meters back on the line of play without penalty.

Next time your group is in doubt, take a provisional.

Patrick P
Sep 28 2009, 04:31 PM
Maybe this a similiar scenario? A player's disc lands 3 feet above the ground on top of a huge bush that is a web of thick branches forming a horizontal barrier and there is no way to place a supporting unit on the ground behind the disc. The player is able to stand on top of the bush behind the disc. The rules that would seem to be reviewed for this ruling would fall under:

803.05 Obstacles and Relief, 803.06 Unplayable Lie, 803.08 Discs above the Playing Surface

Under 803.05, I don't think the player could take casual relief since a bush does not fall under the 803.05C Casual Obstacles category.

Under 803.08, it states "If the playing surface directly below the disc is inside a tree or other solid obstacle, the lie shall be marked on the line of play immediately behind the tree or other solid obstacle."

The disc is not in a tree and the bush is not a solid obstacle. So I don't think the player could place his mark behind the bush under 803.08.

So it seems the player would have to either call an unplayable lie 803.06, or be permissible to shoot from on top of the bush?

pterodactyl
Sep 28 2009, 05:45 PM
Seems like you should be able to jam your mini and foot into the bush.

bruce_brakel
Sep 28 2009, 05:52 PM
Maybe this a similiar scenario? A player's disc lands 3 feet above the ground on top of a huge bush that is a web of thick branches forming a horizontal barrier and there is no way to place a supporting unit on the ground behind the disc. The player is able to stand on top of the bush behind the disc. The rules that would seem to be reviewed for this ruling would fal under:

803.05 Obstacles and Relief, 803.06 Unplayable Lie, 803.08 Discs above the Playing Surface

Under 803.05, I don't think the player could take casual relief since a bush does not fall under the 803.05C Casual Obstacles category.

Under 803.08, it states "If the playing surface directly below the disc is inside a tree or other solid obstacle, the lie shall be marked on the line of play immediately behind the tree or other solid obstacle."

The disc is not in a tree and the bush is not a solid obstacle. So I don't think the player could place his mark behind the bush under 803.08.

So it seems the player would have to either call an unplayable lie 803.06, or be permissible to shoot from on top of the bush?He could not shoot from on top of the bush unless the bush is a playing surface, and that is the TD's call. I've never seen anything I'd call a "bush" that I'd also call a "playing surface." But I've seen matted mixed dead and living vegetation that I'd call a playing surface. And apparently, I have never seen the kind of bushes you are talking about.

Here's a good clue for what is the "playing surface" at most tournaments if it has not been defined by the TD. When you encounter this surface or object during play, do you typically walk on it or walk around it? I walk around tables, benches, trees, bushes, but I walk on exposed roots, logs, really big stumps sometimes, leaf piles.

When you know there are weight bearing surfaces of ambiguity on the course, always ask at the player meeting. The rules don't define the playing surface, and that is probably for the best since every course has its own unusual features.

Patrick P
Sep 28 2009, 06:36 PM
So basically, if your disc lands in or on top of a bush you are required to place a supporting unit on the playing surface (generally the ground) behind the disc, even if that means get inside the bush if possible, otherwise the player would have to call an unplayable lie.

I have to go back and look at this bush again, maybe post a pic.

cgkdisc
Sep 28 2009, 06:58 PM
If the bush is so matted and thick that you can't take a stance within/under it, that to me qualifies as a solid object and you can take your stance behind it without penalty.

RhynoBoy
Sep 28 2009, 07:25 PM
I played from the top of a large burn pile once. I was probably about 8ft. of the ground.

Patrick P
Sep 28 2009, 07:34 PM
If the bush is so matted and thick that you can't take a stance within/under it, that to me qualifies as a solid object and you can take your stance behind it without penalty. Hmm, this really opens up a whole line of subjective interpretation of what bushes are considered playable/nonplayable then. I've always played that you have to take a stance inside the bush, otherwise the player would have to call an unplayable lie.

In the scenario I was describing the player is standing on top of the bush. And what Bruce is stating, the player couldn't stand on the bush since it wouldn't be considered the playing surface.

RhynoBoy
Sep 28 2009, 07:47 PM
I think it would be very hard to stand on a "bush" and not move any obstacles between your lie and the target. Since the bush is so thick and entangled that you couldn't take a stance in the bush, when you were on top of it, I would guess you'd be moving some branches between your lie and the pin.

bruce_brakel
Sep 28 2009, 09:00 PM
Those prickly evergreen bushes that sometimes grow close to the ground could conceivably be a playing surface. If there was a huge patch of them between me and the basket I could see just tramping over them.

There really is a grey area in the rules for when vegetation becomes an obstacle rather than the playing surface. We assume we can trample down the grass under foot, and in taller grass we often trample the dandilions, daisies, violets, wild peas, etc. How tall or thick does the vegetation have to be before it is no longer lpaying surface?

There are no rules to sort this out. There is playing fair and playing where your disc lands and there is taking unfair advantage. There is also asking at the player meeting and taking a provisional series of throws if you don't klike the ruling of your group. Usually, if i cannot take a legal stance where my disc landed, I take the stroke and move the disc out of the bush, away from the basket. Or out of the pipe, or whatever. So there's also manning up and taking your penalty like an adult.

cgkdisc
Sep 28 2009, 09:50 PM
Hmm, this really opens up a whole line of subjective interpretation of what bushes are considered playable/nonplayable then. I've always played that you have to take a stance inside the bush, otherwise the player would have to call an unplayable lie.
The key point here is when the player "cannot" physically take a legal stance due to the thickness of the matted bush. It's not a choice where the player "does not want" to take a stance and can choose to call it a solid object.

JohnLambert
Sep 29 2009, 12:06 AM
In Bakersfield they have a thick area of a bush that has earned the name "Vampire Bush". The bushes are not so thick you couldn't physically get in to your lie, but imagine a million razor blades slicing at your legs. These things are no joke. I believe the TD can call these as casual relief circumstances right?

cgkdisc
Sep 29 2009, 12:49 AM
Yes. Of course, palmettos are pretty wicked in Florida but I'm not sure I've heard TDs allow casual relief.

Patrick P
Sep 29 2009, 01:46 AM
In Bakersfield they have a thick area of a bush that has earned the name "Vampire Bush". The bushes are not so thick you couldn't physically get in to your lie, but imagine a million razor blades slicing at your legs. These things are no joke. I believe the TD can call these as casual relief circumstances right? Hey John, up at Wrightwood at the Sunrise Showdown, Suzette, I recall, had no casual relief for the vampire bushes. We had to either get in there and take a legal stance while risking the chance of razor blaze cuts, or take the unplayable lie. As well at Bakersfield, they didn't offer any relief for the vampire bushes. Now only if these bushes had a bunch of bees swarming we get the relief needed.

bob
Sep 29 2009, 01:24 PM
What if the "vampire bush" was toxic as well, with poisonous barbs. The rules don't give you relief even then. You have to take an unplayable lie.

What if some players are more at risk of harm than others? Say one is highly allergic to certain plants...?

Bob

Patrick P
Sep 29 2009, 01:56 PM
I recall at Evergreen Open this year, they gave us 5 meter relief for poison oak.

brock
Oct 11 2009, 01:42 PM
Hey John, up at Wrightwood at the Sunrise Showdown, Suzette, I recall, had no casual relief for the vampire bushes. We had to either get in there and take a legal stance while risking the chance of razor blaze cuts, or take the unplayable lie. As well at Bakersfield, they didn't offer any relief for the vampire bushes. Now only if these bushes had a bunch of bees swarming we get the relief needed.

hehe, he said bees...


fire has receded, heading up to wrightwood today hoping to avoid the buckthorn and assuming the rattlers are sleeping.

i have 2 questions:

1- can you build your lie? (add a rock or piece of wood to level out your stance)

2- can you dig out your lie? I was at an event this weekend, very sandy hillside and my foot was sliding down the slope. Can i dig out some of the sand and make a level surface? if so, how far can i dig?