How are understable molds different from beat discs? What are the pros and cons of each?

In particular I'm curious how people choose to use one vs. the other for various situations: tail wind, hyzer shots, straight shots, turn-overs, late turn-overs, anyhyzer's (leaves your hand on an anhyzer angle), throwing over obstacles/uphill, rollers ...

Mostly I'm thinking about drivers here, but I'd be happy to hear about midranges and putters too. The reason I ask is because I've slowly fazed out most of the truly understable molds in my bag in favor of older discs: I throw a lot of really beat up DX teebirds, Buzzz's that have seen a lot of gravel, a FLX Surge that is slightly warped and is quite familiar with the trees, ... things like this. But lately I've seen people throw nice shots with understable molds. In particular the Orion LS. Sometimes I'm not sure my trashed plastic is capable of following the same lines.

I have some ideas on this, and I'd be happy to share them later. But I'd rather not suggest answers to my own question!

If a beat disc and a new understable disc are turning over at the same rate at the same speed, the beat disc will be less stable at the end of the flight than will the new understable disc. That is, at the end of the flight, the new disc is more stable.

Yeah, it seems like you can only get that very late turn out of a beat disc.

The advantage of an understable mold is that if you lose it you can just add another one right back to your with the same results. If you lose your money tuned in beat disc, those are not as easy to replace.

true, but if you need the flight characteristics of a beat disc, then use it, but use it wisely.

If a beat disc and a new understable disc are turning over at the same rate at the same speed, the beat disc will be less stable at the end of the flight than will the new understable disc. That is, at the end of the flight, the new disc is more stable.

by what logic?

I'v been using an ancient 140g Aviar P&A for fetch with my lab puppy. As she gnawed up the edge more & more, it got flippier & flippier & I kept releasing closer & closer to 90-degree hyzer to get a flat flight.

-UNTIL- yesterday, after one 80-degree-flip-to-flat huck, she brought it back. The next throw was MAD overstable, staying at the 80-degree hyzer angle all the way to the ground. I threw the next one flat. Flew flat for a short while, than a major fade to the ground. Next one I threw high roller-ish anhyzer which flew a while, fading back to the left the whole way before completing its fade to the ground. Now it is Viper-ish in overstability. Very surprising, especially that it could happen that quickly with no obvious macro-cause.

Is it really true that simple wear and tear will make two discs with the same flight characteristics through 90% of their flight behave differently during the last 10%. I find this hard to believe, I'd argue that the discs had some element that is still different about them that can be accomplished by making a different disc.

Flight mechanics are flight mechanics.

Vegan, drop a note to Sandal Pat, he's posted a good bit about tuning discs and getting wildly different flights. He does some cool stuff. Scary, but cool.

by what logic?

Anecdotal

by what logic?


I don't see why logic has anything to do with it. I don't know why discs do many of the things they do. For instance, if you hand me a predator and say "it likes to go left" and I say "by what logic?" what would you say then?

About discs:

I totally agree with statement in question. New discs in understable molds may be speed sensitive: i.e. flip a lot at high velocity. But they definitely do not have the late turn-over potential that beat discs do. At low speed they like to fade left (RHBH). To rephrase: they do not like to hold an anhyzer line at low velocity.

Of course, any idiot can throw an anhyzer shot and get the thing to crash before it comes out of it. But I'm talking about shots that start on a hyzer and turn over as late in flight as possible and then hold the anhyzer to the ground.

Is it really true that simple wear and tear will make two discs with the same flight characteristics through 90% of their flight behave differently during the last 10%. I find this hard to believe, I'd argue that the discs had some element that is still different about them that can be accomplished by making a different disc.

Flight mechanics are flight mechanics.

Vegan, drop a note to Sandal Pat, he's posted a good bit about tuning discs and getting wildly different flights. He does some cool stuff. Scary, but cool.

1. Why do you find this hard to believe? Wear and tear can make two identical discs become totally different. Why couldn't wear and tear make some discs act more like others? The surface of the disc is the only thing interacting with the air, after all.

2. I don't think anyone was claiming that a beat disc and an understable mold act "exactly the same" for the first 90%. They were only commenting on the last %10.

3. As for arguing that the "beat disc behavior" could be accomplished with a new disc/mold... you're probably right. For instance, you could produce a disc that wasn't perfectly round and had an artificially irregular surface. The problem is, if you a produce a disc that acts like a beat disc when it's new, then, when it's beat its a total POS. The PDGA gave me a slightly warped Stratus. I threw it once, it was a 250' standing hyzer shot. It nearly went roller. I thought, this'll be cool ... for about five throws. Then I put it in a box and haven't touched it since.

4. "Flight mechanics are flight mechanics. " Really? What's your logic? :-P

ever thrown an optimizer?

Never had a chance to play with the optimizer. What exactly does it optimize? :-)

I saw someone throw a "Turnover" once. It was newish and turned all the way over from a 7 o'clock hyzer... on a 200' shot. Just silly. Who throws this thing?!

If a beat disc and a new understable disc are turning over at the same rate at the same speed, the beat disc will be less stable at the end of the flight than will the new understable disc. That is, at the end of the flight, the new disc is more stable.
That does not seem correct. A new understable mold (say - a 160 roadrunner) will flip as much as a beat to hell disc (say - a 4 year old pro wraith). At the end of the flight the beat disc will fade as much as it was molded to fade. In the case of my examples - given enough height to achieve low speed fade the beat to hell wraith (it is chewed on, chewed up, and taco'ed) will fade harder than the new 160 roadrunner.

Why? Because at low speeds the disc is far less effected by the air flowing over it, the irregularities of the disc being beaten up do not matter as much at low speeds as they do at high speeds. At the end of the flight the new disc will be more stable - if it is molded to be so. If it isn't, it won't be.

i carry two roadrunners 1 @175 [email protected] bothare champion plastic and thrown but not worn.
the same mold flies much differntly.
i can flip hyzer the 165 for a late turn much easier than the 175.
if i have a low ceiling 250 ft shot the 175 is easy to throw there with control,however the 165 is iffy for that shot as it may go anny against my will on a 250 ft shot.

1. Why do you find this hard to believe? Wear and tear can make two identical discs become totally different. Why couldn't wear and tear make some discs act more like others? The surface of the disc is the only thing interacting with the air, after all.

2. I don't think anyone was claiming that a beat disc and an understable mold act "exactly the same" for the first 90%. They were only commenting on the last %10.

3. As for arguing that the "beat disc behavior" could be accomplished with a new disc/mold... you're probably right. For instance, you could produce a disc that wasn't perfectly round and had an artificially irregular surface. The problem is, if you a produce a disc that acts like a beat disc when it's new, then, when it's beat its a total POS. The PDGA gave me a slightly warped Stratus. I threw it once, it was a 250' standing hyzer shot. It nearly went roller. I thought, this'll be cool ... for about five throws. Then I put it in a box and haven't touched it since.

4. "Flight mechanics are flight mechanics. " Really? What's your logic? :-P

As is often the case, I didn't write clearly enough... The concept that two discs would show identical (this being a perfect identical) flight patterns over a significant portion of their flight, only varying over a small portion, would take a unique flight structure. Accomplishing this, whether by beating or by manufacture would be very difficult. I suspect that the two discs do not fly the same over the first part of their flight, but that the thrower isn't measuring the differences and gets a close enough flight pattern that it doesn't matter. All of this is response to excar's post. As for the 90% - 10% argument, I simply took excar's flight pattern and codified it to make the argument more cogent, at least in my own little mind...

The notion that you can accomplish something with a disc, by beating it, and not accomplish the same goal by making a mold that flies in the same exact fashion seems incorrect to me (and I understand that you've pointed this out too). My logic is that a disc has certain physical properties, plastic type and structure, and shape. While plastic type and structure may impact flight, I would think that the greater impact on flight would be the shape of the plastic, the face the disc presents to the air it is flying through. When you beat a disc, you are essentially changing both characteristics, you are placing stresses on the plastic that will, to some low degree, change the physical chemistry of the plastic. More importantly, you are changing the shape of the disc.

No matter how much you change the shape of the disc by beating it in, a sharp manufacturer should be able to reproduce that with the correct mold. Pat wrote about some of his experiments where he took an over stable disc, and made it under stable, by changing the shape of the disc. Clearly one can do a lot with a disc simply by playing around.

Even if you buy the notion that the small mars and nicks that get added by beating the disc in, are impacting the flight at certain speeds to give special characteristics, one could manufacture such things, probably more consistently than one could add in such characteristics by hand. Of course I would have to concede the point that right now no one is doing that. But again, I think that if those nicks and mars can impact the flight at low speeds, they will impact that flight at higher speeds also, I will grant the point that effect may be less at high speeds. Nonetheless, the flights won't be identical. Hence, my comment that I find this concept hard to believe.

So, flight mechanics are flight mechanics; a disc that flies in a certain fashion presents a unique form to the air resulting in it's flight mechanics. Such things can be studied and manufactured, no matter how subtle. The problem is that costs prohibit such studies.

Optimizers, never thrown one but I've seen Neal Dambra do amazing things with this disc. It flies exactly like the description of the so called beat disc, almost like the manufacturer pre-made a beat disc... Funny that.

That does not seem correct. A new understable mold (say - a 160 roadrunner) will flip as much as a beat to hell disc (say - a 4 year old pro wraith). At the end of the flight the beat disc will fade as much as it was molded to fade. In the case of my examples - given enough height to achieve low speed fade the beat to hell wraith (it is chewed on, chewed up, and taco'ed) will fade harder than the new 160 roadrunner.

Why? Because at low speeds the disc is far less effected by the air flowing over it, the irregularities of the disc being beaten up do not matter as much at low speeds as they do at high speeds. At the end of the flight the new disc will be more stable - if it is molded to be so. If it isn't, it won't be.

I disagree based only upon my observations. When I beat a disc in and probably why I enjoy throwing beat up discs is because of the change in flight characteristics at low speeds. A new disc will always "come back" as it loses speed but I carry a couple of discs that most likely ain't coming back and if they do it's waaaayyyyyyy less pronounced than the low speed over-stability of new disc. To continue to make a short story long, my beat up Pro Wraiths will not achieve low speed fade at anywhere near what a new 160 roadrunner will . ... . My observation -- I can be wrong, but I'm always right until I'm wrong.

That does not seem correct. A new understable mold (say - a 160 roadrunner) will flip as much as a beat to hell disc (say - a 4 year old pro wraith). At the end of the flight the beat disc will fade as much as it was molded to fade. .

I assumed the question was geared to discs of the same mold?

That does not seem correct. A new understable mold (say - a 160 roadrunner) will flip as much as a beat to hell disc (say - a 4 year old pro wraith). At the end of the flight the beat disc will fade as much as it was molded to fade. In the case of my examples - given enough height to achieve low speed fade the beat to hell wraith (it is chewed on, chewed up, and taco'ed) will fade harder than the new 160 roadrunner.

Why? Because at low speeds the disc is far less effected by the air flowing over it, the irregularities of the disc being beaten up do not matter as much at low speeds as they do at high speeds. At the end of the flight the new disc will be more stable - if it is molded to be so. If it isn't, it won't be.

I also don't agree based on personal experience, but I have some theories about what you're saying.

I have a 168 FLX Predator that's really beat. It has lot's of high speed turn. If I throw a flat full power shot with it, it will slowly turn over until it crashes into the ground. On the other hand, if I put a little air under it and throw it on a hyzer, it will flip up for a while, go flat, and then at some point slow down enough and LAUNCH itself left, like that's what it wanted to do all along. So here's an example where, at low speed, the disc starts to behave more like its mold and less like its surface. But the Predator is a pretty extreme example.

When I asked this question I had in mind examples like: TL versus beat DX Teebird, or Meteor vs. Beat Buzzz, or Beat rock vs. Comet, or even stable examples like beat Teerex vs. Wraith. I think in less extreme comparisons like these, you will find the end behavior is determined more by the wear than the mold.

Your comparison Beat Wraith vs. Roadrunner, is a pretty extreme one. Why? The two discs are radically different. It's not like two similar discs with different levels of stability. It's like two totally different animals. For one thing, the Roadrunner has a much smaller rim and behaves a lot more like older discs (e.g. Leopard.) It flies remarkably well at low speed out of the box. This is why it's so great in a tail wind. The Wraith is nothing like this. It's a max distance disc to the core. You really need to throw it hard to get it to act right. It's optimized for it's high speed behavior. At low speed, it's designed to lift out left because when you throw a full S-curve, this gives you more distance. I have a beat 171 Pro Wraith that has a lot of high speed turn by now. But if I throw a clean hyzer shot with no off-axis torque (say 380'-390' or so) it will flip up, go throw a full S-curve, and then lift out left again. Of course, off-axis torque destroys this.

So, in short, I know what you're talking about, but I don't think it's a fair comparison. For an example of another unfair comparison: no one would ever expect that a new Monarch would behave like a beat Eagle. Again, totally different beasts. Not different stability levels in similar discs.

Spin wins again.

Here's another observation: I've seen a lot really nice hyzer shots with understable molds. I'm talking about the kind that have a lot of air under them and a lot of hyzer. They flip up while pushing hard left for the entire flight (RHBH) giving a total amount of right-to-left movement that's at least as much as one can achieve with an overstable disc. Another nice feature of this shot is that it curves left for most of the flight creating a "broader arc". Compare to an overstable fade shot which spends most of it's time going straight and then hooks hard left at the very end. Sometimes you need this kind of arc to navigate a wooded fairway. Sometimes you need it if there's a large obstacle (say a tree) in front of you and the basket is farther away and extremely far left. (I guess if you have enough power you can just throw a huge spike, but let's pretend you can't do that.)

I've noticed that beat discs are not good for this shot. They tend to go straight while flipping instead of moving left. Then at the end of the flight, they don't tend to hook as hard. If you filp them all the way up to flat they just fall out of the air, and if it never makes it to flat, it will move left, but not as much as a newer disc.

A quote some one has on the forum "Whats the differnce bewteen a beat Roc and a Beat women, The Beat Roc don't come back" A beat disc (if beat enough and understable) will hyzer flip and anny to the ground. I have 3 CE Vals that all fly different Thrown with hyzer one flips to flat and does the S turn. One will flips flat stays straight the other one flips flat goes straight then finishes on the Anny no come back at all at the end. Simply put a new understable disc will not get the late flip that a beat disc will. They want to hyzer out at the finish of the flight it's how it is. JMO but i do throw alot

I assumed the question was geared to discs of the same mold?

No no definitely not. We all know the difference in behavior between a new and old disc of the same mold. I'm saying, compare a newish disc in an understable mold to a beat disc in a stable mold (of approximately the same speed.) They're both understable but they don't act the same.

well I have been searching for the best long distance anny disc for a while. I have tried just about all of the normal possibilities. Most where to anny for me, or i had to come way off on power to control right for the anny. most flex out to soon, or not at all. Very hard couple of years zero'ing in on right disc for me. when all of the sudden i had a revelation. I love Teebirds, i mean love them. I use star teebird for just about every hole i can throw them on. you name it, i can control that puppy, hyzer, anny, strait flat, long , short what ever. Well I thought why not try a Light (167-170) star teebird and see if i can control long long anny's. Guess what It worked like a charm. This is my new secret weapon. a light star teebird for controlled long distance anny shots. I have amazing control and accuracy with this disc. Im not saying it will work for you, but once the beat in a little it is sick anny line and I can crank them Distance with out dumping to anny...

to answer you Fizzy , I would say I would rather beat in disc over new flippy. For this reason....if my disc is beat in then i have alot of experience with this disc, meaning I know pretty dang well where it will break, flex and when... so i am alot more accurate and deadly with my stable disc as they break in. i love breaking them in then they become my flippy / anny disc. and i replace with a brand new 1 to keep over stable shot in bag. but like i said my experience with the disc is the reason i will prefer it. I dont have long experience with a flippy mold....becuase since they start flippier by the time they can break in i hate them cause they are too flippy. i throw more stable disc than most.

well I have been searching for the best long distance anny disc for a while. I have tried just about all of the normal possibilities. Most where to anny for me, or i had to come way off on power to control right for the anny. most flex out to soon, or not at all. Very hard couple of years zero'ing in on right disc for me. when all of the sudden i had a revelation. I love Teebirds, i mean love them. I use star teebird for just about every hole i can throw them on. you name it, i can control that puppy, hyzer, anny, strait flat, long , short what ever. Well I thought why not try a Light (167-170) star teebird and see if i can control long long anny's. Guess what It worked like a charm. This is my new secret weapon. a light star teebird for controlled long distance anny shots. I have amazing control and accuracy with this disc. Im not saying it will work for you, but once the beat in a little it is sick anny line and I can crank them Distance with out dumping to anny...

Couldn't agree with you more. I have 170 star teebird that is my favorite driver. I throw it for flip up hyzers, straight shots, and slow banking anhyzers that hold the line forever. It's weird, because the disc isn't flippy, but it does hold onto an anhhyzer for much longer than a full weight teebird. Also, the glide is noticebly longer. I agree with your post so much it sounds like I wrote it.

I liked the 170 Star TB so much I got a 150 one very recently. I'm not sure it will be good for anhyzer shots because it will probably just bite dirt. But I've been throwing bombin' flip up hyzers with it out of the box. On a good day my max D discs go about 400' and my Teebirds quit in the 360'-370' range. This 150 Star TB is getting me 380-390' on a hyzer line. It's fantastic.

I like your style.... i dont hyzer flip I throw flat out of my hand. But i throw the heavy teebirds for just about everything and the Light 170 star teebird has become my amazingly controllable anny long D driver. I have turned a few guys onto teebirds with all the incredible shots i keep making....they have about 4 different disc to throw all the shots I use a light and heavy teebird...its growing on guys around here.

i just bought a blue 167 star teebird...i cant wait to take this thing out and crank it.

Also another factor is how you throw. I am a power thrower and I prefer beat overstable plastics to give me my distance. Also I prefer beat Stable plastic for my trueover shots. An example I bought a DF champ boss and I beat in in with all the tree hits that I put a hyzer and that baby will helix a long way so makes those 500ft holes easy to reach. Beat disc are easy to get use to cuz u know what they do and u have confidents throwing it. One person said to me what discs I cant lose and I replied it is my CE valkyrie that is my roller and main turnover disc. and I dont have a disc to replace it