We're considering following our tradition and mixing up divisions in our first round of our tournament. The difference is, this year our tournament is an A tier. It's been praised in the past, but we're trying to get some clarification before we decide for sure.

So can we mix our pro divisions (MPO, MPM, etc) up on our first round without having to be classified as X?

To clarify, hole assignments might include a Pro, a Master, a Grandmaster, and a Pro Female. We typically do this so people can play with people they don't normally play with, then everything returns to normal in the second round and third round.

Any input is appreciated.

J L

Your motives are sound.
Playing with other pro divisions can make for an enjoyable round.

Hope you can pull it off.

steve timm

804.06 Grouping and Sectioning

A. Professional and Amateur players should not be grouped together, and all players from different divisions shall be segregated from each other during play as much as practicable.

B. All players within a division should be randomly grouped for the first round and grouped by
cumulative score for each round thereafter.

thus, nope. But I do agree that it's a great idea.

If you break that rule and run a good tournament, no one will complain much. Still, why break the rule? What do you gain that is more valuable than just following PDGA rules at a PDGA tournament?

Well....

It says should not be grouped together. It does not say shall not be grouped together.

To me that is two different things. If it were against the rules it would say "shall not". I think that "should not" is discouraging it but, not disallowing it.

The reason "should" is used is there are times where one has no choice. For example if you have a field of 5 in a division and are having threesomes on every hole. If you sent out one 5-some, the time between first card and last card in would be huge.

The rule also uses the word "shall" which generally is mandatory and not permissive.

2007 Rules:
804.06 Grouping and Sectioning:
A. Professional and Amateur players
should not be grouped together, and all
players from different divisions shall be
segregated from each other during play as
much as practicable.

2008 Competition Manual:
1.6. Grouping and Sectioning
A. Professional and Amateur players should not be grouped
together, and players competing in different divisions
should be segregated from each other during play as
much as practicable.

I remember playing a tournament where I did not realize they mixed the first round groups. I a rec player was put in a group with 2 open and 1 adv player but did not know it. The first few holes I stayed up with the other players throwing pars and one birdie. Then one of the players threw a very awesome shot that I could not believe any rec player could do. I asked how long he had been playing and received the answer 12 years. Then asked why you are in rec. The entire group started to laugh and told me about the mixed 1st round. Well I felt better but my game went way down hill after that. Guess I wish I did not know and would have probably tried to keep up to the best of my ability. For me the mixed group was an awesome experience since I do not get to see many open players play due to shotgun start tournaments. It was a round I needed to show a rec player the potential of the game once you improve on technique and discipline.

My first tournament was like this---many years ago---except as an etiquette-impaired beginner I annoyed an overly-serious Advanced player who was a real jerk to me all round. Quite an introduction to tournaments.

But this thread doesn't proposed complete mixing from Open to Novice---just the Pros. I'd ask for a waiver; I don't think it'd make it an XA-tier if granted. If not granted, well, then you've got a little soul-searching about your compliance with the sanctioning agreement.

I bet you could get special permission from the PDGA by asking the Tour Manager or Mr. Graham without becoming an "X" tier event. Especially since it is the first round. Lots of tournaments have special rules requests and it seems that the PDGA can be quite supportive in many cases.

We do this a quite a few non-sanctioned tournaments, and even mix ams with pros. It is quite fun.

I bet you could get special permission from the PDGA by asking the Tour Manager or Mr. Graham without becoming an "X" tier event. Especially since it is the first round. Lots of tournaments have special rules requests and it seems that the PDGA can be quite supportive in many cases.

We do this a quite a few non-sanctioned tournaments, and even mix ams with pros. It is quite fun.

Yeah we've always done it for our non-sanctioned, and even did it at a few of our B tiers, but this year is our first A tier, and with a few extra people looking over our shoulder, I am just trying to cover our bases.

Thanks for all the input. I think I will request a waiver and see how that goes. Thanks again.

Personally, there are a few crybaby open players that I would rather not play a round of golf with.