I saw an instance this past weekend where things certainly hit a grey area at a tourney.
So the flier for a tournament said 9am player meeting and 10am tee for the first round and was handed out and posted on websites and what not well in advance. Well, of course, Joey BagODonunts travels in from out of town and missed the players meeting and assumed that 1st tee was at 10am. However, during said players meeting the 1st tee was moved up to 9:30am. So he misses 2-3 holes at the start but is still with his card by 10am.

What is the correct ruling oh all knowing message board?

Is it 7's for the missed holes?
Can he make up the missed holes at the end of the round with the rest of his card watching with no penalty?
Should he just go to the waterpark and have fun for the weekend?
Do we get to slap him in the face for missing the players meeting?

According to the flier he was not technically late and was traveling from out of town if it makes a difference. And although it was discussed in the "mandatory players meeting"
my understanding, or misunderstanding, of mandatory players meeting is that you are responsible for the items discussed as far as order of playing extra holes, out of bounds, etc. but not sure about start time. as it was already stated.

And for a little extra kick to the nuts..........What about ACe fund?

I don't know. Taking a couple of 7's seems like a good way for players to start getting used to what "mandatory player's meeting" means.

Missed holes are "par + 4" which is usually 7. Too bad we don't have penalties for missing "mando" player meetings and also for TDs who move a posted start time earlier. Theoretically, player should have made the player meeting and the TD should never tee-off earlier for the FIRST round than posted. Later round tee times are always subject to what happens at the event. Even then it's bad form to move rounds earlier, like at Worlds, if a round time was already "officialy" in print somewhere.

that is kinda how I saw it
1. be at the players meeting. (unless you can warm up from the car to the tee box it will be better for you)
2. Dont move the tee time earlier (for obvious reasons)
3. Take attendence at the players meeting?

I know there are no official rules regarding ace funds, but he did pay on his way to his hole........and then hit one a round later.

jerk


I dont really care as he is a good friend of mine, just curious as to what the correct ruling would have been. (but he did beat me by 2 strokes)

From the Competition Manual,

1.5. Practice Rounds and Tee Times

C. It is the sole responsibility of the player to be at the
course, ready to play in time for the start of their round.

This is college, not high school. We don't take attendance and you can skip the mandatory player meeting at your own peril. If the TD let him play non-penalized make-up holes, I would not have a problem with it. It is pretty funky to move the start time up a half hour. At most tournaments, you can move the start time up a half hour simply by starting on time! If the TD gave him par + 4 on missed holes, I'd be fine with that also.

So what did happen to Joey BagOnonuts, did they stroke him or let him play the holes over at the end of the round? I think it's more bad taste on the TDs part for moving the posted tee time up, than for him to miss even a mandatory players meeting, cause you can always just follow your group, who at least one, if not all, did attend the players meeting.

I think it's on the player... it's a bad situation all around (bad TD! bad!), but there is this from the Rulebook:

804. Tournament
Procedures
804.01 Special Conditions
A. Rules governing special conditions that
may exist on the course shall be clearly
defi ned and disseminated to all players
prior to the start of the tournament.
All special conditions shall be covered
in the players' meeting. Each player is
responsible for adhering to all points
covered in the players' meeting.

I personally don't like it when players feel that it's okay to either skip the meeting or simply don't listen during the meeting... This is the time that questions are answered, sponsors are thanked, etc. I like that the rules include language that indicates that it is the player's responsibility to attend. I also think that announcing a start time for round 1 is a generally bad idea since murphy's law tends to rear its ugly head quite often.

Of course... starting earlier than announced should have a *really* good reason. There will always be the potential for a traffic jam or other extenuating circumstance that keeps an otherwise well-meaning player from attending the meeting.

The player's defense argument is a little shaky. The tee time was published, and he showed up at the published time. The players' meeting time was published, but did didn't make it.

As a TD, and player in general, I've little sympathy for those who choose to not attend players' meeting. There's always someone getting in some extra practice while skipping the meeting---not much respect for the TD.

That said, it's almost unprecedented for a tournament time to be moved up. What was the reason?

I agree with where (I think) you're taking this David. I'm not defending the player, but in our present stance (what is normally accepted as definitive), we concentrate on the "round starts" time - no other time. It may be beneficial for us as an organization to only list - as the definitive "time point that's important" - the player's meeting. That allows two things to occur: 1) ALL players will be / should be at the meeting (to learn what they need to learn) and 2) It'll give the TD a little wiggle room (for whatever) regarding when s/he actually does start the round.

Just a thought.

Karl

John Houck ran a two-day event back in '92. Fliers promoting the event included scheduling for the players meeting was well as the starting times for each round. The flier posted at the park stated the third round on Sunday morning would start at 10:00 am.

Well, I was running a bit late on Sunday morning and showed up around 9:45 am. Low and behold, as I'm driving into the park I notice there appear to be five-somes on every hole and it appeared they were playing golf. I parked the car, grabbed my bag and ran to TD headquarters to learn that the third round had been moved up to a 9:30 am start time. I advised John that the flier posted in the parking lot stated 10:00 am (I had checked it the night before). He proceeded to tell me that he had made an announcement during Saturday's player meeting that the Sunday start time was moved up a half-hour versus what had been published previously.

I had not attended that player meeting. Case closed. I ran to my hole and accepted a dozen penalty strokes for showing up late. I do not recall missing many player meetings since. :)

Karl, I agree and have often considered NOT listing first tee times on my flyers. It's often a fiction, anyway; at the end of the players' meeting the TD announces what will be the real start time for round 1. Unlike this case, it's usually later than the posted time.

I know you're not defending the player---I'm just saying he doesn't have strong grounds for defense, himself.

Nor am I defending the TD, since I don't know why the tee time was moved forward. Certainly unusual. More unusual to think that a 9:00 players' meeting was brief enough, and left enough time for people to reach their holes, to start at 9:30. Such a change could be an inconvenience to other players who might have expected to have plenty of time between the meeting and first tee, and planned to return to their car to change clothes, change discs, or anything else.

Our rules have strict penalties for not teeing off on time, but not for skipping the players' meeting (other than being responsible for what was said). I'm not sure they should; I'd like to think it wouldn't be necessary.

In this instance, I'm also interested that he didn't sign in, wasn't present when the groups were formed---but they still put the player in a group. At tournaments I've played at, if the players aren't present to sign in, they're left off the scoreboard.

td screwed up, player screwed up, player pays the price in strokes, td pays the pdga and continues on their merry way.

I have zero sympathy for any player who intentionally skips the player's meeting and misses critical information. Absolutely none. Whether it be a change to the play of the course, an OB situation, the schedule / start times, whatever. If you pay your money to a enter a tournament, it's your responsibility to be at the player's meeting to get all the relevent information concerning the tournament. If any misfortune befalls you because you skipped a player's meeting, then too freakin' bad!

i agree on that point.

i would be curious to know the justification for teeing earlier than advertised as well however.

If I looked at the weather report and it was predicting extreme weather later in the day, I would very much try to get things started earlier to beat the storms.

I agree with Bruce that either way would be acceptable. That being said, I find more fault with the TD here. If somebody busts his or her butt to get to the church on time and does so, I have a big problem with the TD spontaneously moving things up. If this had been done more than 24 days beforehand, ie. an e-mail to everybody and/or a posting on a local message board and on the course announcing the new time, I would have more sympathy. Even if weather was a potential problem there are other ways to move things along. I think an unannounced change in time is simply unfair.

If a guy misses the player's meeting and misses an important discussion of local ground rules, OB, Two meter etc, too bad for the player. There are a few comments above to the effect that the player's meeting is sacrosanct. I agree that you miss the meeting at your peril. However, by missing the meeting you should not have any expectation that the Tee time will be changed. For whatever reason we have all seen players pull up just in time to play who have missed the meeting. I see no reason why these players should have missed the first few holes. The only caveat is that IF the flyer mentioned that if you do not check in by a certain time your spot may be taken by somebody on the waiting list, you may lose your chance to play.

Time for the exciting conclusion of Joey BagODonuts tourney maylay.


This tourney typically sees about 6 hours worth of rain delay every year and is a 24 holer so I understand why it was moved forward (incidently we had no rain delays)

He recieved no penalties as it was seen as equal blame

They did accept his ace fund money and he did accept his ace fund winnings.

The TD did a great job otherwise, and the tourney was great fun

Chainmeister

Some of us have a different definition of "on time". Mine includes the players meeting, making the subject player an hour late.

To me, a player skipping the player's meeting is more than "at his own peril" of getting some ground rules wrong. He's disrespectful to the TD, and someone selfishly deciding to rely on other players in the group to have attended the meeting and know about O.B., etc., but that his time is more valuable than theirs.

I state this as a generalization, as in the example cited, I don't know if it was the player's decision to come at 10:00, or if something delayed him.

Good things to learn from this experience.
1) TD's don't publish ANYTHING you are unwilling to stick to; this includes tee times, added cash, divisions offered - you name it - it's easier to say TBD.
2) It's a good idea to have a deadline for check-in - which should be 15 min before the players meeting. If you publish that no check in = no play - this problem largely goes away.
3) While most TD's might shun this idea - it's good to be available by cell phone in the event traveling players get stuck in traffic - or for whatever reason are running late. Knowing someone's whereabouts makes it easier to deal with their particular situation fairly when they do show up.


I'd agree with most here who have stated leeway was ok being that 1st teetime was published.

I wouldn't disagree with anyone who sided on the side of penalties either.

Good things to learn from this experience.
1) TD's don't publish ANYTHING you are unwilling to stick to; this includes tee times, added cash, divisions offered - you name it - it's easier to say TBD.
2) It's a good idea to have a deadline for check-in - which should be 15 min before the players meeting. If you publish that no check in = no play - this problem largely goes away.
3) While most TD's might shun this idea - it's good to be available by cell phone in the event traveling players get stuck in traffic - or for whatever reason are running late. Knowing someone's whereabouts makes it easier to deal with their particular situation fairly when they do show up.


I'd agree with most here who have stated leeway was ok being that 1st teetime was published.

I wouldn't disagree with anyone who sided on the side of penalties either.

Excellent advice. ESPECIALLY #1.

And while personally I'd apply the penalty, I can understand and accept if the TD took the blame and was lenient.

I played a 1 day tourney several years ago. I always make a copy of the entry form/flyer when I mail it in. I checked the flyer, saw the players meeting was at 9:30. I showed up at 8:30 to have plenty of time. Imagine my surprise to drive up only to hear the 2 minute warning. I made it without penalty but wasn't thrilled with the TD. When questioned he told me I had an "old version" of the entry form and things were moved up. Bottom line, the TD can do whatever he wants...even if it is idiotic

in theory, one of the points covered in the meeting was that tee time was moved ahead.

That's pretty bad, but salient I'd guess. A person driving from out of town can have many great reasons for being later than intended, but if the published info all says a specific time, that should be the rule. Even in the Texas situation mentioned, with a sign in the parking lot vs the TD at the meeting, it was published as such.

There's too much fault on both sides of this one.

MORALE: Don't change a published tee time, don't miss the meeting.

Is it an etiquette violation not to share discussion points from the meeting with someone who missed it??

If you look at 801.04A it does say players shall attend the players meeting. Then, looking at 801.01C Refusal to perform an action expected by the rules is a courtesy violation. I believe that a player could get a courtesy warning for missing the meeting.

OK, Chuck, sorry to go off topic, but since you brought up the subject of courtesy warnings, could I legitimately give a courtesy warning to a card member who did not second my call of a foot fault on the tee box because that said member was not watching, and hence, was not following the rules, specifically 801.01C, or does the word "refusal" mean that they have to be asked before they can be warned/penalized, and if so, in the thread's example, was the player _asked_ to attend the player's meeting, and the player's absence was deemed a refusal? I don't think you can refuse a request at a tournament that you haven't even shown up for yet, but I reserve the right to be wrong.

I would say yes, you may issue a courtesy warning as players are expected to follow the rules. However, if you really just want folks to pay attention, simply mention something at the start of the round and give everyone a heads up that you expect them to be watching for foot faults. This way you are not singling any one player out. Of course if you really just want people to pay attention to so-and-so, you can ask that too.

Suzette

Excellent idea, let everyone on the card know from the start.
Why not hand out a rule book, cometition manuel and a printout of the Q&A?
You can even highlight the rules that you are emphasizing that day.

Should be a memorable round.

steve timm



(http://www.pdga.com/discussion/../documents/competition-manual)

Excellent advice. ESPECIALLY #1.

And while personally I'd apply the penalty, I can understand and accept if the TD took the blame and was lenient.

I agree...especially #2. As Craig mentioned, if #2 was followed there would be no issue.