wlbkr
Jun 29 2009, 11:07 PM
When a T.D. turns in the tournament report, Par for the course layouts are required. Question: does the par listed affect the players ratings. For instance if the tournament director puts a par on Layout A as 59, would the ratings be different if the T.D. has listed a par of 61 instead?

Ps. I noted at the Majestic, the par per round was over 85? Who set that and did that affect the ratings?

bruce_brakel
Jun 29 2009, 11:32 PM
No, par does not affect ratings. Ratings are determined mainly from the average score shot by the average propagator and the number of holes played in the round.

cgkdisc
Jun 30 2009, 12:20 AM
Par is not included on the TD report sent to the PDGA because it doesn't have any use for calculations or display of official results. Something I'm not sure many have noticed is that when Unofficial results are uploaded and shown online during or right after an event, the Over/Under par column is shown. http://www.pdga.com/tournament-results?TournID=8498#Open However, it disappears once Official results are posted because the par values of the courses played are not submitted nor tracked. http://www.pdga.com/tournament-results?TournID=8656#Open

The only reason for correct par values being entered by the TD for unofficial results is to give people an idea how tough certain courses or layouts may be and also for live scoring display of over/under par. However, the unofficial results do not indicate how many holes were played on each course so even course difficulty isn't necessarily shown by using par as shown by the Majestic example with 27 hole courses with some having a few par 4s.

wlbkr
Jun 30 2009, 04:49 PM
Just curious about your thoughts.

Does listing par for disc golf help or hurt the game of disc golf?

It doesn't seem to have anything to do with player ratings.

Doesn't seem to have anything to do with exactly how hard a course is.

It seems to be making older courses obsolete.

Is very misleading to the public when pros shoot 50 under par

As far as I can tell, the only time we use it is for a penalty if you are late to a tournament.

Is the only real reason for par in disc golf to make a slight resemblence and connection to ball and stick golf?

Could Disc Golf prosper if we deleted the term par?

Does disc golf need par?

What think ye?

cgkdisc
Jun 30 2009, 05:04 PM
Connecting par with SSA or actually substituting SSA may make some sense. Figuring out the practical details of doing that on a hole-by-hole basis for something like live scoring is where the challenge lies. Some have played around with some other concepts over the years to determine if there might be a better way than our current loosely defined par system but no luck so far.

veganray
Jun 30 2009, 06:13 PM
Par MAY effect round ratings:eek::
A player is near the end of a round & is in the vicinity of "par". (Above or below makes little difference.) She may change her game (or her game may be positively or negatively effected by the pressure of) attempting to achieve the personal satisfaction of a "par" or "under par" score, despite the artificiality of that goal in relation to the competition at hand. Her score may be positively or negatively effected by the change or pressure effect, thus her round rating may also be positively or negatively effected.

wlbkr
Jun 30 2009, 08:07 PM
So....do you see any problem with a course having some Par 2 holes?

Does it really matter?

If most pros get a 2 on an old course hole.....is there a problem with counting it as a par 2?

cgkdisc
Jun 30 2009, 10:14 PM
It was already done for Pro Worlds courses in 2001 and 2002 with several par 2 holes listed on the scorecards. After that, the decision was to avoid assigning par 2s but hopefully provide courses for gold level that didn't have too many holes with scoring averages under 2.5. They would be called par 3s even if it meant they were "weak" par 3s from a design standpoint.

bruce_brakel
Jun 30 2009, 10:21 PM
Kira and I like to practice on a nine holer that has six or seven holes designated par 2 on the tee sign. Here's tonight's scorecard:

http://img4.glowfoto.com/images/2009/06/30-1853101988T.jpg (http://www.glowfoto.com/user_imageredirect.php?iid=2565958)

Holes 6 and 7 are designated as par 3, and maybe 8, but since Kira and I both shoot 6 and 8 less than 2.5, it those probably should be designated par 2.

skaZZirf
Jul 01 2009, 10:51 AM
in good time, the courses will change. The problem currently sits with everyone trying to grow the sport and make rec players enjoy the course. I play a lot of 'ball' golf and I can say I have only once carded a birdie, and yet, each time I bring a newbie to a discgolf course, they have chances all over the place. Ball golf designers don't think about rec players, they think about great layouts. The current def. of a tough 'score to par' course is listed as a bad course by most of the membership. Everyone wants instant rewards. 2 cents.

unclemercy
Jul 01 2009, 12:47 PM
i think it is important to consider this from a fans standpoint. someday, there will be disc golf fans. the only bad part will be thinking of new excuses for the pdga's shortcomings. the lack of spectators, though relavent, has been a very convenient crutch. anyways, one hundred forty five, or whatever, for a tournament is difficult to put in perspective. seventeen under par is easier. i grew up on a golf course and see no need to be embarrassed that the scoring is disparate. also, great point by ray and bruce aced three out of nine holes.

exczar
Jul 01 2009, 02:11 PM
Vegan,

Using your example, I wouldn't say that the par affected the round ratings - I would say that the par affected the play of the player, which affected the score for the round, and of course, the round rating, which has a direct correlation of the score.

If the par had a direct effect on the round rating, you would see different ratings generated for the same round with the same propogators, etc, if different pars were used.

veganray
Jul 01 2009, 02:47 PM
You might say that, but you would be wrong. Par definitely has the potential to effect the rating in my example if "par" has a significant enough psychological pull in the player's mind. If par were different, round rating could be different, based on the explicit factors that I enumerated.

Your "logic" is like saying that the amount of aces one has in a round doesn't effect the round's rating, which is obviously bunkum. All other things being equal, more aces -> lower rating.

exczar
Jul 01 2009, 03:09 PM
Vegan,

Careful. Your bluntness to my post, and putting my logic in "quotes" and calling it bunkum, could be considered a borderline personal attack. FYI

Now, back to the discussion.

Chuck said, "Par is not included on the TD report sent to the PDGA because it doesn't have any use for calculations or display of official results. " So, if par does not have any use for calculations, that it cannot, in and of itself, have any effect on round ratings. If someone modifies their game based on the rated par, that is another issue and has nothing to do with ratings.

re: aces in a round. Let me see if I have straight what you said. If I shot a 54 with no aces and someone else shot a 54 with two aces, the two rounds would get different ratings? Is that what you are saying?

veganray
Jul 01 2009, 03:48 PM
What I am saying, of course, is that a round including a score of 1 on hole x will have a different rating from a round including a score of anything-other-than-one on hole x, just as, in my example, a course par of y may lead to a different round rating than a course par of anything other than y for a round when a member of a particular subset of players comes down the stretch with a score of y or y-1 within feasible reach.

Par, of course, is not the only extraneous factor that can lead to round rating effects. Ace pots, tags, side bets, course records, personal bests, prizes (particularly the ca$h/no ca$h line & large discrepancies between places), and other factors can all lead to round ratings different than those produced if a player is purely playing in a vacuum.

The title of the thread is "Does Par affect Ratings?" With that being the question, the answer is, unequivocally, "YES!"

BTW - Please report me to the mod squad, bunkum "czar", as I need another forced break from this lame discussion bored.

cgkdisc
Jul 01 2009, 04:31 PM
This supports Vegan's claim. http://www.absurdintellectual.com/2009/06/15/golf-try-to-birdie/

Theoretically, if we lowered par values players would play slightly better. Of course, if this psychology affects everybody, it would lower the SSA on the courses the same amount (4-5%) as the improved scores from making one more putt out of 25. So overall ratings would remain unchanged.

bruce_brakel
Jul 01 2009, 04:45 PM
great point by ray and bruce...Thank you for noticing. The designation of par on that course has never changed the way I play the course. The old signs had mostly 3s on them with only 2 or 3 Par 2 holes. The new signs have mostly 2s on them with only 2 or 3 Par 3s. Either way I've always tried to run my "drive" 15 feet past the basket, chain high.

Last night the baskets got in the way more often than normal!

johnbiscoe
Jul 02 2009, 10:51 AM
saying one's "logic" is "bunkum" is no different than saying someone threw a bad shot... and the "logic" in this case was decidedly "bunkum"

exczar
Jul 02 2009, 11:35 AM
Whatever.

What VR said is that par affects score, which is different than par affects ratings.

EOM

Jeff_LaG
Jul 02 2009, 11:55 AM
I would say that the par affected the play of the player, which affected the score for the round, and of course, the round rating, which has a direct correlation of the score.


Par is not included on the TD report sent to the PDGA because it doesn't have any use for calculations or display of official results.

While this whole argument is nitpicking at best, the simple truth is that round ratings are calculated solely from the scores players shot and their existing player ratings. Par is not used in the calculation whatsoever. You could enter a par of 1 or a par of 1,000 for an 18-hole course and generate exactly the same round ratings.

However, because perceived par can affect the play of a player during the round, which can affect the score for the round, and thereby the round rating, par does technically, but very indirectly, affect ratings.

bravo
Jul 20 2009, 01:23 AM
expected par for the public player should be posted, as well as the expected par for an advanced player, as well as the expected par for a pro player.
quite possibly a junior same as above and a ladies same as above.
the only time par affects me is when i'm adding scores at the end, i start with an 18 hole count off 54 then -1 or +1 etc until i have compared each hole to a par of three.this is much faster to calculate.
while playing there are holes i expect to hit in 2 and others that a 4 is acceptable for the holes,there are also others that i'm running at the ace because its possible.
just because a hole may get aced quite frequently doesnt meen it should be a par 1.
also just because a hole is shot in 2 frequently doesnt meen it should be a par 2.

bravo
Jul 20 2009, 01:23 AM
expected par for the public player should be posted, as well as the expected par for an advanced player, as well as the expected par for a pro player.
quite possibly a junior same as above and a ladies same as above.
the only time par affects me is when i'm adding scores at the end, i start with an 18 hole count off 54 then -1 or +1 etc until i have compared each hole to a par of three.this is much faster to calculate.
while playing there are holes i expect to hit in 2 and others that a 4 is acceptable for the holes,there are also others that i'm running at the ace because its possible.
just because a hole may get aced quite frequently doesnt meen it should be a par 1.
also just because a hole is shot in 2 frequently doesnt meen it should be a par 2.