I hate to complain, but I don't understand why women don't move up when they should.
If I had played Am Worlds & played well enough, I would move up. I know everyone complains about the guys sandbagging, but the women are doing it too. I think the cut-off for Advanced women should be more like 850 or 875 instead of 900.

This answer is not meant to be flippant but we cannot find any sports that force amateurs to turn pro. I don't think disc golf wants to be the first to do it.

I'm not saying they should be forced to go Pro, but they should not be allowed to play Am Worlds with ratings nearing 900 when they've already played & placed at a previous Am Worlds. If you look at the Pre-reg list for our division, they are the highest rated, with ratings well above all the other women.
They should not have been invited again, in my opinion.

So you're suggesting that every Advanced division have a ratings cap above which a player may not enter Am Worlds? What would be the rationale for doing it only for Am Worlds and not daily play? Do we lose these players/members due to this discrimination causing them to drop out of the sport? It's a slippery slope and I'm not sure anyone would know what your proposed "fair" ratings caps would be for the roughly 8 Advanced divisions.

No, I'm suggesting they not be invited to Am Worlds again based on the fact that they placed the year before. Invite them to the Pro Worlds instead.

They are invited to both as are you. Any member may enter Pro Worlds. Only Ams may enter Am Worlds and all Frazers but Nicole qualify. There's always going to be someone who is the highest rated in a division before the competition starts. Just because Climo was highest rated for quite a while and won multiple titles, you didn't hear anyone saying we should create a new higher division for him (OK, maybe quietly:rolleyes:). Peter Shive had been the highest rated Sr GM Pro for quite a while and won multiple titles. He could have played in a younger age division but he qualified to play in Sr GM and continued to win.

Nicole Frazer has moved on to Pro before age 20. Her sisters are still in High School and you think they should be forced to go pro or sit on the sidelines? They could play in the Junior divisions but have moved up to play in Advanced, the highest Am division. You may not remember Nikki Ross but she got her rating to 923 at age 16 in 2003 and didn't turn pro because she needed to retain her NCAA eligibility. What's not fair about that?

Ok, obviously I've hit a nerve with you. I was expressing an opinion- I never suggested you "force" people to move up, nor do I know anything about the Frazers except their ratings.

I do know my own story of late: after I play Am Worlds, I'm moving up.

I would think disallowing someone to play in a division based on their rating is in essence "forcing" them to move up to continue to play? You voiced an opinion and I've simply indicated there's been a lot of background for why the policy is where it is today without a cap or forcing someone to turn pro. This question comes up every so often but you'd have to dig thru a lot of posts to find it. So we answer it when it pops up again.

As long as the Frazier ladies retain their Amateur status they are welcome to play Am Worlds. It is not unfair, it is the rules.

My amateur older daughter is rated higher than the any of the amateur Frazier women. She's feeling unfairly overlooked right now. :D Kelsey is not likely to go pro until after she gets out of vet school, six or seven years from now, if ever. She prefers to play in larger fields than you generally find in the Pro Women's division, so she may be an amateur for a long time. She also thinks it's kind of silly when women go pro before they are good enough to win in the lower men's amateur divisions.

As long as the Frazier ladies retain their Amateur status they are welcome to play Am Worlds. It is not unfair, it is the rules.That is how my other daughter, Kiralyn, feels. An Amateur World Championship would hardly count if you didn't beat a Frazier or two to get it. Besides, at 818 its not like only the Fraziers are standing between you and the obscure glory of a PDGA amateur world championship.

Work on your own game. Go pro when it works for you. Don't fret over what others do. There are lots of good reasons for staying amateur. Go pro early and you can share some of them with us.

Here's a list of the top ten amateur women in the PDGA:

Kelsey Brakel 16007 MI USA 914 30 F Am
Paige Pierce 29190 TX USA 906 19 F Am
Becca Tucker 38108 NY USA 898 2 F Am
Michelle Frazer 24356 IN USA 893 30 F Am
Sandra Frazer 24354 IN USA 891 31 F Am
Carla Correa 25732 WI USA 891 20 F Am
Deborah Cartwright 16459 MI USA 886 8 F Am
Rebecca Frazer 27869 IN USA 886 24 F Am
Catherine Tulk 14170 FL USA 883 6 F Am
Amanda Kellicker 32096 OH USA 875 20 F Am

If all the top amateur women were to show up, there's no lock on any of the Frazier's finishing in the top four.

And there are 80 more amateur women between 875 and 818.

You're a pretty rude one aren't ya. My rating just recently went down because of a shoulder injury & some rumored miscalculations in one of the tournaments I played in; not that I have to defend myself- I'm moving up whether the baggers beat me or not.

It's a difference of opinion. That can be stated nicely; but thanks for the smacktalk. I will no longer be using this discussion board.

You're a pretty rude one aren't ya. ... I will no longer be using this discussion board.I'm feeling so much like a black kettle.

I'm feeling so much like a black kettle.

More like the pot calling the sub-zero black. I re-read the whole thread, and I saw no rudeness or smacktalk from anyone, or should I say, from anyone that responded to her. :rolleyes:

Bruce, where am I on this list?..I could not find how to sort by rating.

http://www.pdga.com/player-ratings-search?offset=0&division=F1O&order=rating

Waaaaaannnnnnnnnnnnnnn............


Chuck ...I see 3 1000+ players in my path...please fix

What I find plain silly is...anyone that knows or has ever played with any of the Frazer's or Brakel's know that they are some great down to earth folks that really love and promote Disc Golf. Both families have done a wonderful job of raising daughters in this day and age.

Why?..and I really mean WHY? would any young person 'go pro' in a sport that can't financially support them before they are even in college? With the way the NCAA flip flops on certain issues...you could deny yourself participation in a college sport because you accepted cash in Disc Golf as a 'Pro'.

Maybe we could add a rule that you have to be 18 to go pro and shoot down arguments like this before they can even be uttered. As for an 818 rated player turning pro....I bet Nicole Frazer would love for you to come to a tournament she is attending. I bet she would smile and be oh so nice as she crushes you by 10 strokes a round.

And another thing...I've seen all the above mentioned play in Men's Divisions as well.

Oh..and Bruce..I still can't believe that Ace you hit at Harbin during the Rat Race...Great Ace!

Bruce, where am I on this list?..I could not find how to sort by rating.Big tie for 25th? After reading the rest of the thread, I forgot. Here's the player-ratings-search starting point:

http://www.pdga.com/player-ratings-search

Click on Am Women. Start counting on the second page at 11.

I'm sorry for saying anything about the Frazers. As I already said, I don't know them, or their ages, nor do I know much about the rules of competing in college sports. I was questioning why they were playing Am Worlds again, I got my answer and more, thank you.

Original Post:
As long as the Frazier ladies retain their Amateur status they are welcome to play Am Worlds. It is not unfair, it is the rules.

I have a different view of the sport; my goal has always been to go pro. If I had done as well as they did at Am Worlds, I wouldn't play Am Worlds again. I would make room for the next generation of competitive Am women. Of course, my viewpoint could be different if I was still in high school; I only wish I would've discovered this game back then.

As for my crappy rating, I've played in way more tournys than my PDGA profile shows; I won them all last year & got called a sandbagger, so I'm moving up. I'm not afraid of Nicole Frazer; it will be a privelege and a challenge to play with the Pros. My game thrives when I play with better players than myself. I'm also down to earth, really love disc golf (I help with our local tourny & I've been running our league), and am raising a child of my own. I hope you all haven't formed some hater predisposition of me, but if you have, come to KC & we'll talk.
So, again, my apologies. I have a better understanding, now & I will drop it.

In looking at your stats, you haven't beaten anybody significantly above your level. The fact you've won against similarly skilled opponents is a good sign that you can play well against your level. Unfortunately, there's not much Adv Women competition in your area to have really tested you compared with the Upper Midwest where the Brakels and Frazers compete.

There's really no downside for you in terms of going pro since it looks like you'll typically be the only one entered in your area. To improve your game (as a Woman pro) and provide some competition, it looks like the Men's Rec division might be where you can learn to advance your game without having to travel far. That's probably the best stepping stone in between where you're at now and learning how to play well enough to eventually hang with the women pros in the big events. I wish you the best on your efforts. Your challenge is not unlike that faced by many women with few players in their area.