I had a thought. Originally this thought came by way of the Japan Open.

Several trains of thought converge for this idea, so please bear with me.

1. With good technique, driving in 150 class is just about as easy, if not easier than heavy class. With the advent of the speed 12 and 13 discs, and especially with more stable models, these discs in 150 class easily out distance heavier slower drivers, except possibly into a wind. Accuracy and technique are a little more difficult but definitely manageable.

2. Although a case for lighter putters could be made for putting under obstacles and possibly longer distances, I feel pretty confident saying that heavy putters are generally advantageous.

3. Most everyone can operate a heavy (175g) putter. Most everyone can operate a 150 class driver (bad technique aside). Not everyone can properly operate a heavy (Boss-like) driver.

4. Safety is a concern for disc golf, especially in Japan. Safety of discs are related to weight, nose radius, flexibility, and operating range and speed.

5. The safest discs have the bluntest noses, most flexibily, lightest weight, and are the slowest with the shortest (theoretical) operating range.

6. The second safest discs would probably be all of #5 in heavy weight plastic. In other words, I believe a super soft heavy putter is just as safe, if not safer, than a 150 high speed driver in normal plastic.

With all this in mind, why not have a 150 class, allowing exception for super flexible putters? Putter class would be defined by nose radius. Flexible would be set at around 10lbs, as opposed to the current 26lb limit.

I conducted a simple test on a medical scale, pushing the disc down with my hand until it bent to approximately 90 degrees. A Super Soft Omega easily passed (for example).

This could be a separate class like Super Class, Vintage, or 150 Class. Maybe 150 Super Class or, (in my opinion), Fair Class.

I suppose we could have a Super Flex Class that allowed in all types of drivers but, I don't think it would be as safe, due to the additional weight of the faster, longer range drivers. Speed and weight are not good for safety. That being said, a Super Flex Class would certainly be safer than the current standards.

Just some thoughts, not to scare anyone. If it is tested anywhere, it would probably be in Japan.

sounds great for courses where safety and congestion are an issue. The science could help mitigate safety concerns during the process of trying to get courses okay'd for public parks.
I usually throw 150 hi-speed drivers, along with 170ish short drivers, mids, and putters. I can get the most out of a 150 destroyer or boss (450+ on a nice line), and cannot get the heavy ones to fly the same line or distance.

have the blunt


true, true. thanks, dave.

Dave,

You can do whatever you want (after all, you're a disc maker), but I question the whole "safety" thing that revolves around 150g plastic.

I'm quite sure you're fully aware that the "muzzle velocity" of a 150g sharp-nosed driver (SND) is going to be as fast as (and maybe even faster) than say a 175g SHD. So getting hit by one (the 150g SND) will only be "lesser" by a little bit of the 1/2M aspect of the 1/2MVsq'rd. Not a whole lot...it'll still hurt!

The SND vs BND (blunt) thing is the key here regarding safety, so if people 'want to be safe' I question using ANY such SND.

Kind of kidding here (although you'll get my point) but...
Tell you what, let's play gutts! I'll throw a 150g SND at you and you can throw a 1 lb Aviar putter at me. See who bleeds first! ;)

Karl

We had an impromptu light driver heavy putter contest of sorts today at La Mirada. It was R-Pro Boss tee shots only for light plastic, but it was very interesting. The strongest thrower of the four of us lost badly. The most accurate were a grandmaster female throwing 130 gm and a grandmaster male throwing 150 gm. I and our troglodyte friend were throwing 140 gms.

Our grandmaster female and our grandmaster male were both delighted with their results, throwing better than they ever had. Our troglodyte was very frustrated with his lack of accuracy. I was in between, not having much confidence, as the security blanket of heavy discs wasn't there, but still throwing many very good shots.

I think the bottom line here was that if you were unable to throw heavy discs, as our two grandmasters were, then the light weight drivers were a boon. If you could only throw heavy and didn't have the skill to throw light, you were potentially in trouble.

These drivers were definite illustration of skill over brute strength.

This could be a separate class like Super Class, Vintage, or 150 Class. Maybe 150 Super Class or, (in my opinion), Fair Class.


This idea would make sense on the still small percentage of courses with SSAs over 60 (2% = 18 out of 918 courses with SSAs)) where the dsitance is long enough to provide a good mix of par 4s and 5s in addition to the overwhelming number of par 3s when using the lighter weight, still long distance drivers. That's the rationale for the Super Class blunter edges which throttles back the max distance to make most courses (the other 98%) a "real" golf challenge with a good mix of par 3s, 4 and 5s.

The compression of driving distance differences among skill/age levels with Super Class has been making players, who would never enter Open with regular golf discs, enter it in Super Class events because they feel they have a chance and have been shown by the results to actually have a chance to cash/win. We only had 22 enter the recent Super Class event at the IDGC but 17 entered Open including Stork who couldn't remember the last time he did with regular golf discs. That may have been the largest Open field ever among the many C-tiers hosted at the IDGC. The top players who did play loved the format and are planning to attend the Super Class Nationals in August.

Chuck, calm down. You're starting to sound like Reece :(

This idea would make sense on the still small percentage of courses with SSAs over 60 (2% = 18 out of 918 courses with SSAs)) where the dsitance is long enough to provide a good mix of par 4s and 5s in addition to the overwhelming number of par 3s when using the lighter weight, still long distance drivers. That's the rationale for the Super Class blunter edges which throttles back the max distance to make most courses (the other 98%) a "real" golf challenge with a good mix of par 3s, 4 and 5s.

The compression of driving distance differences among skill/age levels with Super Class has been making players, who would never enter Open with regular golf discs, enter it in Super Class events because they feel they have a chance and have been shown by the results to actually have a chance to cash/win. We only had 22 enter the recent Super Class event at the IDGC but 17 entered Open including Stork who couldn't remember the last time he did with regular golf discs. That may have been the largest Open field ever among the many C-tiers hosted at the IDGC. The top players who did play loved the format and are planning to attend the Super Class Nationals in August.

I am happy you are having success with Super Class. I can't really see Stork being competitive with heavy discs. On the other hand, Stork would be able to reach holes he would never be able to reach with our new light weight drivers. He is exactly the type of player that would be empowered. Likewise, the two gmasters that were absolutely jacked by their experience with light discs today, would not even be able to throw the heavy stuff.

Super Class would be a fine idea for short courses, (if the weight were restricted more) but it still heavily favors gorillas over technical skill simply because the weight allowance is too high. A modified 150 class or 130 class or whatever for drivers helps to allow many more people to compete on regular courses. The gorillas are already reaching the holes. They would not be helped at all, unless the courses were lengthened, and even then, the help would come with technique, not power, per se. With light drivers, everyone else has a chance to reach holes they would not otherwise be able to. It turns the tide toward accuracy and finesse, while maintaining the coolness factor of being able to throw long.

Your assertion that this would only work on courses with par 4s and 5s is unfounded. I just watched it work today at La Mirada, and I have historically watched work over the last 25 years.

I don't think this is an either-or thing at all. I like Vintage Class better than Super Class, but either is fine, and neither has much to do with modified 150 class. Super Class or Vintage can be played on short or long courses. Modified 150 can too. It is plain to me that Vintage and Super Class are rooted in the past. I have been there and done that and had a lot of fun and success with it.

Modified 150 class is not that much different from the introduction of the Eagle/Aero in 1983 which helped to level the playing field and allowed many more golfers to be competitive.

While the few "gorillas" I've seen throw Super Class throw maybe 30-50 feet farther than most, the Super Class courses we've set up have not given them a shot advantage when the par 4s and 5s lengths are set properly. Their second shot might be 100-150 instead of 130-200. Their advantage has been slightly more accuracy putting, perhaps due to younger age/skill.

Unfortunately, the major differential in distance of 150-300 feet will exist for Stork, Hoeniger, myself and many other players if everyone must throw 150 class drivers. I doubt you would claim that using heavy putters at the JPO was the difference in you, Graham or Hoeniger competing with the big boys versus their 150 distance advantage, even if somewhat less accurate than the shorter throwers? I do agree with you that your proposed format might be an improvement for the JPO since their course has several legit par 4s and 5s.

The proposed 150 plus heavy putter format does not automatically make our majority of mostly par 3 courses into a better balanced mix including par 4s and 5s. Stork and I did talk about the idea to lower the max weight allowed for any discs to maybe 185g since only the heavy Condor rollers might be slightly impacted for regular golf and we would get the weight reduction you think is needed (but not yet indicated) for Super Class.

Their advantage has been slightly more accuracy putting, perhaps due to younger age/skill.

I doubt you would claim that using heavy putters at the JPO was the difference in you, Graham or Hoeniger competing with the big boys versus their 150 distance advantage, even if somewhat less accurate than the shorter throwers?

The driving difference between us and the big boys was less than usual in Japan. And, the putting difference was just as great.

I think I need to make myself clear about the "Gorillas". I am not referring to Nate, Avery, and Rico for example. These guys are highly skilled technical players that will be successful with any type disc, light or heavy. These guys would not only continue to win, but will win by a wider margin over the gorillas that are only able to dominate by strength. Many of the highly skilled weaker throwers (like Dr. Ric or Greenwell) would tend to rise to the top however, and be able to beat these gorillas.


The proposed 150 plus heavy putter format does not automatically make our majority of mostly par 3 courses into a better balanced mix including par 4s and 5s. Agreed. It would probably increase the number of birdies. It would definitely change the distribution of birdies. It might very well also increase the number of bogies due to increased driving errors. That would increase the scoring spread.

Stork and I did talk about the idea to lower the max weight allowed for any discs to maybe 185g since only the heavy Condor rollers might be slightly impacted for regular golf and we would get the weight reduction you think is needed (but not yet indicated) for Super Class.I think reducing the weight would be an improvement. As you know, I would prefer Vintage myself. Vintage takes the most skill and least strength of all formats.