I'm just curious about the exact limitations of alcohol in a tournament.

In the one I've been in so far, we had 15 minutes to reach our tees after the players' meeting and I didn't know if drinking was allowed in that time or if it stops when the players' meeting occurs.

I bought one too many beers during lunch and had to trash one because I was worried :(

So does the no drinking rule come into effect at the players' meeting? When you tee off? Somewhere in between?

If you are at a public park it's probably illegal

: ) :

From the Competition Manual:

D. The use of alcohol is forbidden from the 2-minute warning
until the player�s scorecard is submitted. Such use shall
result in immediate disqualification at a B Tier or higher
event. At a C or D Tier event the TD shall either disqualify
the offending player or issue them a warning. If a player
has been issued a warning, all subsequent violations shall
result in immediate disqualification.



Lots of public parks are ok to drink in.. ; )

Basically...

If you are in a park / private land where it is legal, 2 min warning until scorecard is turned in is the times you can't drink. Other than that, you are ok. As a side note, if you are in one of these places and are under 21, you can be DQed.

If you are not in one of those places, drinking at any time on the premises is grounds for DQ

From the Competition Manual:

D. The use of alcohol is forbidden from the 2-minute warning
until the player�s scorecard is submitted.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_V5F969634&fmt=18

So was Blaine's scorecard submitted before he took that beer?

Astute viewing / recollection of the rules Jeff !

As I was in the final's there (not Blaine's group, but in another division's), our (I assume the same was done for the Adv.) scores were kept by an official scorekeeper - we (the players) didn't keep our scores in the finals.

Because of this "technicality", one could argue that the scores were "in" the moment the last putt was made. I'm not saying this was the case, nor am I saying that you don't have a point...just saying what WAS the situation there at BG.

While most people enjoy a beer every now and then, to have it "so connected" with our sport (and "advertised" (as it was probably the most predominant video of the BG tournament) on YouTube), may - in some eyes - paint a less than "best possible" picture of dg.

Some people may accuse me of being a "stick in the mud" (or worse) but, in reality, if we wish to "professionalize" our sport, being seen / talked about in the same context as alcohol and drugs will only hurt our attempts to be accepted as "mainstream".

Karl

From the Competition Manual:

D. The use of alcohol is forbidden from the 2-minute warning
until the player�s scorecard is submitted.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_V5F969634&fmt=18

So was Blaine's scorecard submitted before he took that beer?



I'm not sure if that's the same video i've commented on or not. I cannot view it here at the school I work at.

His round was definitely not over.

Holed-Out: A term used to signify completion of a hole. A player has holed-out� after the removal of the at rest disc from the chains or entrapment area of a disc entrapment device.

Makes putt, celebrates, drink of beer, takes putter out. Doh!

Wow. Subject to mandatory DQ?

His round was definitely not over.

Holed-Out: A term used to signify completion of a hole. A player has holed-out� after the removal of the at rest disc from the chains or entrapment area of a disc entrapment device.

Makes putt, celebrates, drink of beer, takes putter out. Doh!



Wow, I didn't even notice that - he hadn't even removed his putter from the basket. I remember a PDGA Marshal asking Nate Doss to remove his final putt from the basket at Highbridge at Pro Worlds 2007 before further celebrating.

So the player never officially holed out. It is obvious that he also did not check/initial his scorecard before consuming alcohol. Did all the other players on his card check & verify scores and officially submit it to the scorekeeper in the ~60 seconds after Blaine holed out his putt but before he consumed?

(What are the odds of that?)

Astute viewing / recollection of the rules Jeff !

As I was in the final's there (not Blaine's group, but in another division's), our (I assume the same was done for the Adv.) scores were kept by an official scorekeeper - we (the players) didn't keep our scores in the finals.

Because of this "technicality", one could argue that the scores were "in" the moment the last putt was made. I'm not saying this was the case, nor am I saying that you don't have a point...just saying what WAS the situation there at BG.

While most people enjoy a beer every now and then, to have it "so connected" with our sport (and "advertised" (as it was probably the most predominant video of the BG tournament) on YouTube), may - in some eyes - paint a less than "best possible" picture of dg.

Some people may accuse me of being a "stick in the mud" (or worse) but, in reality, if we wish to "professionalize" our sport, being seen / talked about in the same context as alcohol and drugs will only hurt our attempts to be accepted as "mainstream".

Karl



good point... celebrating with beer/champagne/etc at the end of the world series, Nascar races and other major sporting events have totally wrecked the images of those sports. Not to mention the red car w/ BUD written all over it.

Last I checked we have WOODCHUCK as the sponsor of our NT series. You want to makes sponsors happy and get more big sponsorships? Make sure a nice cold Woodchuck is in the hand of the winning players of the NTs as soon as possible after the final putt!

On an earlier note (and obviously not about BG) regarding when you can/can't drink during a tourney... it is possible to legally drink during a PDGA sanctioned round as long as its a C tier or lower, not against the course rules to consume alcohol and the TD says its ok.

Ummmm...

That is not what the rule says at all. It says that for a C tier or below it is not an automatic DQ. A TD would have to get an exemption from PDGA HQ to override a rule in the PDGA book. It is not optional by the TDs decision.

D. The use of alcohol is forbidden from the 2-minute warning
until the player�s scorecard is submitted. Such use shall
result in immediate disqualification at a B Tier or higher
event. At a C or D Tier event the TD shall either disqualify
the offending player or issue them a warning. If a player
has been issued a warning, all subsequent violations shall
result in immediate disqualification.

If you are at a public park it's probably illegal

: ) :



In Kansas and Missouri, alcohol is RARELY illegal in a public park. It depends on where you are...but you should always find out to make sure.

That being said, if it's legal in the park, and the TD hasn't specified that it's not allowed in the venue during the event, then it's legal if you're of legal drinking age, except between the 2-minute warning and the end of the round.

Chap

Stack,

Not only are you 100% wrong, but it is comments like that that lead to issues and why our sport can't be taken seriously.

If you are at a public park it's probably illegal

: ) :



In Kansas and Missouri, alcohol is RARELY illegal in a public park. It depends on where you are...but you should always find out to make sure.

That being said, if it's legal in the park, and the TD hasn't specified that it's not allowed in the venue during the event, then it's legal if you're of legal drinking age, except between the 2-minute warning and the end of the round.

Chap



Strange how things are different state to state. Every park in NC it is illegal - the only time I've ever seen it be legal was at some places if you rent the shelter, you can drink under the shelter.

Stack,

Not only are you 100% wrong, but it is comments like that that lead to issues and why our sport can't be taken seriously.



which specific comments? just curious if you are only talking about my C/D tier comment or the ones about supporting sponsors like woodchuck and how having a celebratory drink in other sports haven't hurt their images?

This is the result of the historically conservative and sometimes dangerously uptight South where the alcohol laws were crafted to keep alcohol "in it's place". Municipal and County parks in Virginia have always banned alcoholic beverages in my lifetime. I was surprised at the 2000 Worlds in Michigan when they told me it was legal to drink beer in the park!

move to TEXAS we can drink in all our parks in the RR area just no glass :D

I think the alcohol could have waited until he was out of the spotlight and things had calmed down. It was a little unnessary to have a beer immediately after winning such a large tournament...
A lot of people were watching and yet again the sport just looks that less professional.
But, ok then. Good shooting none-the-less.

Stack,

Not only are you 100% wrong, but it is comments like that that lead to issues and why our sport can't be taken seriously.



Yeah, if we just stop making comments like that, we'll be taken seriously, even by the 98% of the public who's never heard of us.

There are several valid arguments for a no-alcohol rule.

One is that we don't particularly want people sloshed during tournaments. Though I've seen it. Without breathalzyers and the will to use them, it would be hard to allow alcohol during play but limit intoxication....much easier just to outlaw the alcohol.

Another is the impression we may make among non-disc-golfers visiting the parks or living in the neighborhoods, and the parks departments themselves, all of whom influence whether we keep the courses we have or get new ones. Especially where illegal; I'm not sure the publicity we'd get from alcohol arrests (or drug arrests, for that matter) would be helpful to the growth of the sport, especially in those specific locales.

There's a bit of a gap between a celebratory beer and carting a cooler around with us on the course. But the rule is probably there for the latter, and applies to the former.

NASCAR may love beer sponsorships, but I bet they'd prefer the drivers not consume it during competition.

NASCAR may love beer sponsorships, but I bet they'd prefer the drivers not consume it during competition.



LOL... great point David! and I agree about image issues with cans/bottles being strewn all over courses and filling trash cans. I was talking more about after things where done.

Could you imagine the wrecks Nascar would have?!

the rules are the rules, sounds like a DQ is in order

http://instructors.cwrl.utexas.edu/piekarski/files/images/Walter%20and%20Smokey.preview.jpg

Stack,

Not only are you 100% wrong, but it is comments like that that lead to issues and why our sport can't be taken seriously.



Yeah, if we just stop making comments like that, we'll be taken seriously, even by the 98% of the public who's never heard of us.




stack and david...

People read this board and can get confused when someone posts something, like it is ok to drink in a sanctioned event when......, and then thinks it is the truth then goes out and drinks, gets caught, and boom, no more course or tournament.

I'm not sure we have a real problem in the person who doesn't know the rules, reads this discussion board, reads someone's misunderstanding of a rule, doesn't read the replies quoting the correct rule and correcting that mis-understanding, and then goes out and acts upon it.

Far more troublesome is the person who knows the rules, but decides to break them, anyway.

Besides, I think we have been better served when I was wrong about a rule and posted my (erroneous) understanding of it, giving others a chance to correct me. I know I'm wiser for it, and hopefully someone else out there reading the discussion board is, as well.

move to TEXAS we can drink in all our parks in the RR area just no glass :D



Same here in San Angelo...man I love Texas!!!

move to TEXAS we can drink in all our parks in the RR area just no glass :D



Same here in San Angelo...man I love Texas!!!



So can we in the South of STL area. Must be kept on the LD but the rules are followed by most.

Peace

Corpus Christi TX. Alcohol is prohibited in parks..ignored by the police for the most part.

Astute viewing / recollection of the rules Jeff !

As I was in the final's there (not Blaine's group, but in another division's), our (I assume the same was done for the Adv.) scores were kept by an official scorekeeper - we (the players) didn't keep our scores in the finals.

Because of this "technicality", one could argue that the scores were "in" the moment the last putt was made. I'm not saying this was the case, nor am I saying that you don't have a point...just saying what WAS the situation there at BG.

While most people enjoy a beer every now and then, to have it "so connected" with our sport (and "advertised" (as it was probably the most predominant video of the BG tournament) on YouTube), may - in some eyes - paint a less than "best possible" picture of dg.

Some people may accuse me of being a "stick in the mud" (or worse) but, in reality, if we wish to "professionalize" our sport, being seen / talked about in the same context as alcohol and drugs will only hurt our attempts to be accepted as "mainstream".

Karl



I thought I was alone. I live in North Carolina where Alcohol is prohibited in all public parks. Go to any Disc Golf Course in NC the trash cans are full of Beer Cans and Bottles. I am all so the father of soon to be thirteen year old Disc Golfer, Who wishes to be a touring Disc Golf Pro someday.

Yes Beer is marketed at all sports, even Disc Golf look at he main sponsor for Worlds last year. But the difference is it is marketed to the spectators. how many main stream sports do you see that the players drink during the event.

I just what this great sport to grow. I want my son to be able to make a living playing it. at this point I tell him after college when gets a job that pays his bills he can thinking about turning pro.

Astute viewing / recollection of the rules Jeff !

As I was in the final's there (not Blaine's group, but in another division's), our (I assume the same was done for the Adv.) scores were kept by an official scorekeeper - we (the players) didn't keep our scores in the finals.

Because of this "technicality", one could argue that the scores were "in" the moment the last putt was made. I'm not saying this was the case, nor am I saying that you don't have a point...just saying what WAS the situation there at BG.

While most people enjoy a beer every now and then, to have it "so connected" with our sport (and "advertised" (as it was probably the most predominant video of the BG tournament) on YouTube), may - in some eyes - paint a less than "best possible" picture of dg.

Some people may accuse me of being a "stick in the mud" (or worse) but, in reality, if we wish to "professionalize" our sport, being seen / talked about in the same context as alcohol and drugs will only hurt our attempts to be accepted as "mainstream".

Karl



I thought I was alone. I live in North Carolina where Alcohol is prohibited in all public parks. Go to any Disc Golf Course in NC the trash cans are full of Beer Cans and Bottles. I am all so the father of soon to be thirteen year old Disc Golfer, Who wishes to be a touring Disc Golf Pro someday.

Yes Beer is marketed at all sports, even Disc Golf look at he main sponsor for Worlds last year. But the difference is it is marketed to the spectators. how many main stream sports do you see that the players drink during the event.

I just what this great sport to grow. I want my son to be able to make a living playing it. at this point I tell him after college when gets a job that pays his bills he can thinking about turning pro.



I do not know of any parks in Illinois where it is legal to drink. I've played all but 14 of the courses listed on the course directory.

My issues are exactly what you described wyattcoggin. I have worked with many park districts in the area. The office people view disc golf as a bunch of drunk punk kid vandals. Garbage cans are overflowing with beer cans in parks that are illegal to drink in. Even worse, bottles are broken and beer cans litter many properties. It's a constant battle to keep courses clean. The perception of disc golf in most cases are negatives. The athletic director at the high school I coach at found out I played disc golf. He immediately called me a dope smoking frisbee chucker. Until disc golfers realize that most people outside our sport think disc golf is a bunch of beer drinking/dope smoking idiots, the game will continue to stay at the bottom.

that is a very progressive generalization you make about disc golfers and people outside the sport. you should provide separate cans at your course for recycling.

Funny how different areas look at DG differently. Here in San Angelo the Parks Dept. thinks we help the parks. The parks dept. here, say "we are in the business of bringing people to the park, and disc golf does that". The first course they fully funded was a park were they looked at us as the people who would run off the "bad" traffic....not that we are the bad traffic.

ditto. we leave trash cans completely full of empties, but we also actively clean up the course and participate with youth/rec programs when the city asks.

Funny how different areas look at DG differently. Here in San Angelo the Parks Dept. thinks we help the parks. The parks dept. here, say "we are in the business of bringing people to the park, and disc golf does that". The first course they fully funded was a park were they looked at us as the people who would run off the "bad" traffic....not that we are the bad traffic.



We run events in two parks run by two different entities. One loves us (disc golfers) and sees us as a good force in their park. The other not so much... :D

cevalkyrie, i agree...

I'm not saying that drinking *during* rounds is viewed as professional, but after a round to celebrate a victory, I see nothing wrong with.

Here is one of a few very large sports where the podium finishers celebrate with champagne!

http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2007/06/16/lewishamilton_wideweb__470x344,0.jpg

I was thinking about putting something about F1, and how when the race is over the top three celebrate with champagne...just didn't know if there were any F1 fans to relate.

Haven't missed a race yet this year!

Here's some beer celebrations from the LPGA tour:

LPGA Beer Celebrations (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fidCC1MRNE)

Those celebrations do not seem to have hurt the LPGA's popularity or professionalism at all. If anything, it shows that those women were having fun, responsibly, of course.

Chap

http://cache.boston.com/images/sports/redsox/2007/10_29_07_champagne_800600.jpg

http://tour-de-france.velonews.com/files/images/SASTRE1_1.jpg

http://www.insurancebroadcasting.com/061908p2.jpg

All these photographs of victory celebrations with alcohol across many different sports are not relevant to the discussion at hand.

The only issue at hand is that we have a rule in our official rule book which stipulates that the use of alcohol is forbidden from the 2-minute warning until the player�s scorecard is submitted.

The only issue at hand is whether this rule is going to be enforced or not? :confused:

i think people have gotten off on a few tangents... those are in response to the 'image' issues (although i 110% agree that it doesn't help the sport to have overflowing trash cans w/ beer bottles on the course)...
as far as "the official rule book issue" ... i didn't think it was so cut and dry. Thought there was some gray area about what it means for the card to be submitted. Didnt someone say an official was following the group and nobody in the group actually kept the card?

you can't seriously think the PDGA should take his win away from him do you?

Let's say drinking was legal in the parks at the worlds or USDGC - and Climo wins and in his awards he drinks a beer to celebrate - great!!

All of those pics are not during play. Huge difference.

You cannot take away a win. No rule violation was called and after awards the event is FINAL.

Even if an official was keeping score, he had not holed out. I'd bet that the score card wasn't complete yet (but it is possible that the official might have written totals). Not necessarily suggesting it, but if the PDGA did DQ him, it would make it pretty clear that players need to follow ALL of the rules. I'm glad I'm not the one having to actually make the call. Of course, the event is over (awards have been distributed), which changes things slightly.

Haven't missed a race yet this year!



I haven't watched this past weekends yet, was at a tourney...but I plan to watch it tonight(after the Pens game)

i think people have gotten off on a few tangents... those are in response to the 'image' issues (although i 110% agree that it doesn't help the sport to have overflowing trash cans w/ beer bottles on the course)...
as far as "the official rule book issue" ... i didn't think it was so cut and dry. Thought there was some gray area about what it means for the card to be submitted. Didnt someone say an official was following the group and nobody in the group actually kept the card?

you can't seriously think the PDGA should take his win away from him do you?



I think this is a "no harm, no foul" issue. Assuming, of course, that alcohol is legal in the park.

The PDGA rules do not allow alcohol during competition. Nor, do I suspect, do most of these other sports people keep posting about.

The PDGA rules allow alcohol after competition, in celebration. Or mourning, for that matter. Most of these other sports do as well.

By the most literal application of the rule---it's a DQ.

But I'd agree that the reasonable thing to do would take it for celebration after competition.....as if a football player opened a beer as time was running off the clock but no more plays to be run. It violates the wording of the rule, but is not consuming alcohol during competition in any real sense of the word, nor for the reasons the PDGA bans it in the first place.

If a player were drinking beer before a round, heard the 2-minute horn, and gulped the last ounce, I think I'd overlook that as well.

I once overlooked a guy drinking beer in my group all day long at a tournament where i was a player-TD. I saw him drinking beer. I just forgot there was a rule. In Michigan the beer rule is routinely ignored by the players in certain divisions and it is easy to forget that it exists in other divisions or in other states. :D

I once overlooked a guy drinking beer in my group all day long at a tournament where i was a player-TD. I saw him drinking beer. I just forgot there was a rule. In Michigan the beer rule is routinely ignored by the players in certain divisions and it is easy to forget that it exists in other divisions or in other states. :D



I don't find this funny at all.

I once overlooked a guy drinking beer in my group. It was the 4th round, we were hopelessly out of the cash, and I didn't see much point. It was just a beer. With about 3 holes left I looked in his bag and it had 3 discs and about 8 empty cans, and he was sloshed.

I won't make that mistake again.

If he'd just pulled his first one out on the final putt to celebrate a merciful end to a miserable tournament, I'd feel differently.

who said it was funny

I once overlooked a guy drinking beer in my group all day long at a tournament where i was a player-TD. I saw him drinking beer. I just forgot there was a rule. In Michigan the beer rule is routinely ignored by the players in certain divisions and it is easy to forget that it exists in other divisions or in other states. :D



I don't find this funny at all.

You're just jealous. :D

As to whether there will be any enforcement, the Disciplinary Committee normally requires a complaint or a disqualification to trigger an investigation and disciplinary action. Commenting on the message board will not trigger a disciplinary committee investigation.

The PDGA rules do not allow alcohol during competition. Nor, do I suspect, do most of these other sports people keep posting about.



What?!?! F1 doesn't allow the drivers to drink during the race??? WTF?!?!??!?!?

All these photographs of victory celebrations with alcohol across many different sports are not relevant to the discussion at hand.

The only issue at hand is that we have a rule in our official rule book which stipulates that the use of alcohol is forbidden from the 2-minute warning until the player�s scorecard is submitted.

The only issue at hand is whether this rule is going to be enforced or not? :confused:



Actually, those photos are somewhat relevant to the overall discussion.

Do we really want to DQ someone who played his entire round alcohol-free, won one of the largest amateur disc golf events, and then celebrated by taking an otherwise legal sip of beer that someone handed him, just because he may not have turned in his scorecard yet? Forget the competition manual for a minute....think....does that make any sense to you? What is the intent of the policy? The intent of the policy is to keep players from consuming alcohol during the course of play. I'd argue that at the point Mr. Kinkel took the sip of beer, all play had ended. Common sense tells us he shouldn't be DQ'd. Perhaps a reminder of the comp manual policy is warranted, but I would never DQ someone in that situation.

Let's take it one ridiculous, yet certainly possible step further.

Let's say play at the Worlds this year is suspended at 5PM at Rosedale due to thunderstorms and lightning in the area. The pool of players mostly had 16 or 17 holes completed, and no one in the pool had completed all 18 holes. Play cannot resume because the thunderstorms do not end until 10PM, well after dark. It is decided that play will resume at 8AM the next morning. Player Z (in that pool) has a glass of wine with dinner that night. Player D and Player Q observe him do so as they are having dinner at the same time. They report that to the TD the next morning before the round starts.

If you go strictly by that comp manual policy, Player A has consumed alcohol after the 2-minute warning, and before his scorecard for the round was turned in. If you go with the black and white interpretation of that policy, the TD would have to DQ Player A. Of course, our course and tournament TDs at Worlds will have more sense than that. I'd never DQ a player in that circumstance, nor would I do so in the circumstance that happened at Bowling Green. It simply doesn't make any sense.

Good officials take not only the rules into account, but they use good judgment in applying the rules. Good officials know that situations are not always black and white....often there's elements of grey.

Lastly, some folks believe that any alcohol use by spectators or players is unprofessional and wrong, even in non-tournament venues, and even in tournament venues where alcohol is allowed for non-players, and that's where the photos of the various celebrations are relevant. I don't think PDGA should be so rigid as to ban alcohol from post-round celebrations where alcohol is otherwise legal.

Chap

i think people have gotten off on a few tangents... those are in response to the 'image' issues (although i 110% agree that it doesn't help the sport to have overflowing trash cans w/ beer bottles on the course)...
as far as "the official rule book issue" ... i didn't think it was so cut and dry. Thought there was some gray area about what it means for the card to be submitted. Didnt someone say an official was following the group and nobody in the group actually kept the card?

you can't seriously think the PDGA should take his win away from him do you?



I think this is a "no harm, no foul" issue. Assuming, of course, that alcohol is legal in the park.

The PDGA rules do not allow alcohol during competition. Nor, do I suspect, do most of these other sports people keep posting about.

The PDGA rules allow alcohol after competition, in celebration. Or mourning, for that matter. Most of these other sports do as well.

By the most literal application of the rule---it's a DQ.

But I'd agree that the reasonable thing to do would take it for celebration after competition.....as if a football player opened a beer as time was running off the clock but no more plays to be run. It violates the wording of the rule, but is not consuming alcohol during competition in any real sense of the word, nor for the reasons the PDGA bans it in the first place.

If a player were drinking beer before a round, heard the 2-minute horn, and gulped the last ounce, I think I'd overlook that as well.



Amen, brother.

Especially when Alcohol manufactures are the major sponsors in some big events!

some of you seem to have made a lot of mistakes. as a fellow disc golfer, i am beside myself and more interested in additional stories about the prejudiced athletic director. anyways, it is apparent that bowling green ams do not have to act professionally, so i will see you next year.

All these photographs of victory celebrations with alcohol across many different sports are not relevant to the discussion at hand.

The only issue at hand is that we have a rule in our official rule book which stipulates that the use of alcohol is forbidden from the 2-minute warning until the player�s scorecard is submitted.

The only issue at hand is whether this rule is going to be enforced or not? :confused:



Actually, those photos are somewhat relevant to the overall discussion.

Do we really want to DQ someone who played his entire round alcohol-free, won one of the largest amateur disc golf events, and then celebrated by taking an otherwise legal sip of beer that someone handed him, just because he may not have turned in his scorecard yet? Forget the competition manual for a minute....think....does that make any sense to you? What is the intent of the policy? The intent of the policy is to keep players from consuming alcohol during the course of play. I'd argue that at the point Mr. Kinkel took the sip of beer, all play had ended. Common sense tells us he shouldn't be DQ'd. Perhaps a reminder of the comp manual policy is warranted, but I would never DQ someone in that situation.

Let's take it one ridiculous, yet certainly possible step further.

Let's say play at the Worlds this year is suspended at 5PM at Rosedale due to thunderstorms and lightning in the area. The pool of players mostly had 16 or 17 holes completed, and no one in the pool had completed all 18 holes. Play cannot resume because the thunderstorms do not end until 10PM, well after dark. It is decided that play will resume at 8AM the next morning. Player Z (in that pool) has a glass of wine with dinner that night. Player D and Player Q observe him do so as they are having dinner at the same time. They report that to the TD the next morning before the round starts.

If you go strictly by that comp manual policy, Player A has consumed alcohol after the 2-minute warning, and before his scorecard for the round was turned in. If you go with the black and white interpretation of that policy, the TD would have to DQ Player A. Of course, our course and tournament TDs at Worlds will have more sense than that. I'd never DQ a player in that circumstance, nor would I do so in the circumstance that happened at Bowling Green. It simply doesn't make any sense.

Good officials take not only the rules into account, but they use good judgment in applying the rules. Good officials know that situations are not always black and white....often there's elements of grey.

Lastly, some folks believe that any alcohol use by spectators or players is unprofessional and wrong, even in non-tournament venues, and even in tournament venues where alcohol is allowed for non-players, and that's where the photos of the various celebrations are relevant. I don't think PDGA should be so rigid as to ban alcohol from post-round celebrations where alcohol is otherwise legal.

Chap



But officer, I was only going over the speed limit to pass that slow car safely.

There is no grey here. The round was over, but the card was turned in yet. The player should have refused the beer until the scores had been checked and the cards turned in. I have seen many players do that because it is the rule.

What punishment is appropriate? That is a question I would hope not to have to answer since the rules only provide one option.

The PDGA position on post-round celebrations doesn't apply since this happened during the round according the definition in the competition manual. Either we mean what we say or we don't. It shouldn't matter whether why a rule was broken or when.

i have no vested interest, but the kinkle never holed out... "right here, yeah".

sorry, blaine... make that the "kinkel" never holed out

From another thread, supposedly quoted from the competition manual-

"D. The use of alcohol is forbidden from the 2-minute warning
until the player�s scorecard is submitted. Such use shall
result in immediate disqualification at a B Tier or higher
event. At a C or D Tier event the TD shall either disqualify
the offending player or issue them a warning. If a player
has been issued a warning, all subsequent violations shall
result in immediate disqualification."

From another thread. I'm not sure where this definition comes from-

"Holed-Out: A term used to signify completion of a hole. A player has holed-out after the removal of the at rest disc from the chains or entrapment area of a disc entrapment device."



If the above is true, then the question that pops into my head is "Can a player submit his scorecard before he completes the last hole?"

But officer, I was only going over the speed limit to pass that slow car safely.



Not even close to the same thing. Sipping a beer after your round is over is not an unsafe act. Speeding can be. How much were you speeding? Did you go 20 mph over the limit to pass the car, or 1 mph over the limit? Both are speeding....would the officer or judge adjudicate both offenses the same way? I bet not. I bet you wouldn't even get pulled over by the cop in the first place if you were only 1mph over the limit (except perhaps if you were in Macks Creek, Missouri)


There is no grey here. The round was over, but the card was turned in yet. The player should have refused the beer until the scores had been checked and the cards turned in. I have seen many players do that because it is the rule.



I like to use the word "policy" here rather than rule, because this policy isn't in the rules book, and the current Comp Manual is not widely available as the rules book is (how many people do you think have one in their bag? I bet it's less than 10% of those that even have a rules book in their bag). It's hard to enforce something that we haven't even made important enough that we make sure that every PDGA member gets one copy (like we do for the rules book) Even so, this is something we need to address, because all sense of fairness says that this particular incident shouldn't be a DQ-able offense. If we need to fix the Comp Manual to reflect that, let's get started.


What punishment is appropriate? That is a question I would hope not to have to answer since the rules only provide one option.



Bingo. That's where the grey comes in. Someone drinking beer during the round? Fine, DQ them. Taking a sip of beer after they've thrown their last competitive shot of the tournament? Not even close to the same thing. DQ would have been a serious miscarriage of justice here. Disciplinary action after the DQ (such as suspension) would be McCarthy-ish.


The PDGA position on post-round celebrations doesn't apply since this happened during the round according the definition in the competition manual. Either we mean what we say or we don't. It shouldn't matter whether why a rule was broken or when.



Actually, it does matter when the policy itself is flawed in such a way that we demand a DQ for such an "offense". An unfair policy is a bad policy, and should be changed. The intent of this policy was never to DQ a person for drinking a beer legally after holing out on the last hole.

Chap

Let me ask another question:

Why do we even ban alcohol during play? I'm not saying we should allow drinking, I just want to know what your reasons are.

Does it enhance your performance? That's debatable, but let's assume for argument's sake that perhaps up to a point it could enhance your performance. Of course, one could pound 5-6 beers 15 minutes before the round starts and still be legal as far as PDGA is concerned, as long as they didn't consume any during the round. So let's assume that's not the main reason.

Is it a professionalism or image thing? That's the more likely answer. Drinking during the round is something a lot of golfers (disc golfers and traditional golfers) do during casual rounds, though, and it's perfectly acceptable behavior. Does one drink in a business meeting? Probably not, but sometimes that can be true. What image do we really want to portray to the public? Did you know that portraying disc golf as "fun" or "enjoyable" is not even part of the PDGA Mission Statement? Separate issue, and obviously you can have fun without alcohol, but it's an interesting idea about our image.

Is it a legal question? In many of our courses, alcohol is indeed illegal. In a sense, perhaps it makes sense to ban alcohol in that vein for consistency across all PDGA events.

Is it because drunk people can cause trouble and be disruptive? Perhaps, except that we already had rules that cover disruptive behavior, regardless of whether the offender is drunk. Also, as I have already stated, it's not against PDGA rules to be intoxicated while playing in a tournament. One could be intoxicated before the round started, refrain from any discourteous or disruptive behavior during the round, and not be DQ'd.

Personally, I think smoking is more performance-enhancing for the smokers and far more dangerous to non-smoking competitors than drinking is. Why haven't we banned that? Smoking is actually becoming illegal in a lot more places than drinking is. And I'm not saying we should ban smoking from PDGA events. Most smokers I know are courteous, and our rules currently cover those that are discourteous. I just think we should ask those sorts of questions about what we want our events and organization to be.

Chap

But officer, I was only going over the speed limit to pass that slow car safely.





Or, perhaps, "But officer, I know I was jaywalking but it's a trafficless residential street."

David and John,

While both of you appear to be taking a somewhat pragmatic view on this specific topic (and one in which I probably agree with you on), the bigger issue here is that of "where do you draw the line" (when "interpreting" a rule / law / practice / et al)?
Robert seems to be taking the stance of "...the PDGA governing body HAS drawn the line (by writing the rule the way it did) and thus THAT is the line! It was crossed. Therefore....
And I also agree with this stance, because a sport without rules (or rules which are followed whenever / however we want to) is not much of a sport.

There are two issues being discussed here. 1) The BG incident. 2) Is this "rule" written properly (does the punishment fit the crime). 2) is the more important one, but 1) is a perfect example of 2)'s either "goodness" or "not-so-goodness"...and thus is connected (in a poster child sort of way).

If you take the stance of "...well, it was just a little alcohol (or just a little over the speed limit), etc..." I have to ask 'where is the line drawn?'

I. If we have NO rules, anarchy reigns supreme. NG.
II. If WE individually decide where the 'line is drawn' for each case, WE have no collective sport's body (we're all playing a similar game but with different rules). NG also.
III. If we have a set of rules (which are imperfect) that we MUST follow (until changed...for the better), then we have a "sport". G.

Karl

I personally think the "we can't go back and DQ him" argument is bogus.

What if we found out he added weight to his discs after the tournament? No big deal b/c the tournament is over?

Breaking the rules is breaking the rules. It really is that simple.

Karl,

I certain understand the position of strict enforcement of the rules. However, from my background of many, many years of coaching baseball and basketball I bring a sense of judgement to applying the rules.

Certainly, both of these are sports, not anarchy.

In baseball, rules are pretty precisely applied. And yet....the strike zone isn't called as written, but as tradition has evolved. About a decade ago Major League baseball re-defined the strike zone and ordered umpires to call strikes above the waist. There was such a furor during spring training that by Opening Day, it had evolved back to whereever people were comfortable with. And that's not even taking into account the concept of different umpires having their own personal strike zones.

More closely related to our situation, the baseball rules call for an automatic ejection for arguing balls and strikes. But in practice, you can argue a little without getting ejected. You can argue a little more, and get warned, even though the rules do not call for a warning before ejection. You can cross the ill-defined, gray, fuzzy line in your argument, and you're ejected.

Then there's basketball. Read the traveling rule, read the foul rules, read the rule about coaches staying on the bench except when rising to signal their team (unless this has been reworded in my 10-year absence), and then watch a game. If the foul rule were called as written, the game would last 7 minutes until everyone had fouled out. No, they call it based on how serious a violation it is....how it affects competition. Traveling is more of a mystery.

Yet the sport survives.

There's a quote somewhere about the law tempered with judgement produces justice. Or tempered with mercy. Or something.

With this background, I'm vulnerable to feeling that the rules should be enforced based on how they affect competition, or the tournament experience of others, or the image of disc golf; and based on the severity of the violation. And to understand that tradition in how rules are applied are a fact of life. I'd rather footfaults and time limits be called than worry about this sip of beer, which hardly affected the competition, nor the tournament experience of other participants, nor the sport in general.

I'm in favor of changing the rules in the future to allow booze at B tiers and below.

But, clearly stated rules are in place right now. Will the PDGA enforce them?

...tempered with mercy.



the pdga will do nothing and in doing nothing reinforce the fact that amateurs are not to be held to a professional standard. among other things, this will apparently include disregard for the rules. the pdga will set a precedent whereby many will be able to reconsider the rulebook as a guidebook and browse the guide as if it were suggestions on how to golf. in any case, the celebration is low budget before the beer became involved. how did the tournament end without the winner holing out?

Let's take it one ridiculous, yet certainly possible step further.

Let's say play at the Worlds this year is suspended at 5PM at Rosedale due to thunderstorms and lightning in the area. The pool of players mostly had 16 or 17 holes completed, and no one in the pool had completed all 18 holes. Play cannot resume because the thunderstorms do not end until 10PM, well after dark. It is decided that play will resume at 8AM the next morning. Player Z (in that pool) has a glass of wine with dinner that night. Player D and Player Q observe him do so as they are having dinner at the same time. They report that to the TD the next morning before the round starts.

If you go strictly by that comp manual policy, Player A has consumed alcohol after the 2-minute warning, and before his scorecard for the round was turned in. If you go with the black and white interpretation of that policy, the TD would have to DQ Player A. Of course, our course and tournament TDs at Worlds will have more sense than that. I'd never DQ a player in that circumstance, nor would I do so in the circumstance that happened at Bowling Green. It simply doesn't make any sense.



Your example is indeed ridiculous because play was suspended. When play is suspended, the rules no longer apply. Otherwise you'd have to give strokes for practice throws, courtesy violations for loud cursing, etc.

Bottom line is that when tournament play is in effect, 804.05 A. (4) stipulates that activities which are in violation of the law or park regulation, including the illegal consumption of drugs or alcohol, is a DQable offense. And the Competition Manual states that the use of alcohol is forbidden from the 2-minute warning until the player�s scorecard is submitted. End of story.

Is there a rule that says the rules don't apply during a round suspension? :)

Was alcohol prohibited in this park, by law or park regulation? I missed that post.

Is there a rule that says the rules don't apply during a round suspension? :)



The short answer is no. Rounds don't get suspended. According to the rules, the tournament gets suspended. Looking at the applicable definition of "suspend", this means the tournament stops.

new PDGA slogan

"Beer for C-tiers" :D

David,

I think your analogies of (the specifically-mentioned aspects of) baseball and basketball are not appropriate here. The one's you mentioned are "referee-descretion" situations and thus, by their nature, are "open to interpretation" (i.e. as to IF that player traveled, etc.). The one at BG was not such.

Robert's...

I personally think the "we can't go back and DQ him" argument is bogus. [QUOTE]

...is something I agree with. Not that we SHOULD go back (that's not my decision, I've not the power (the PDGA does) to do so), but that we "can't" go back. I say "Yes we CAN" (go back - if we (the PDGA) wishes so).

In addition, Robert's...
[QUOTE]
Breaking the rules is breaking the rules. It really is that simple.



...is really the case.
As I said in a previous post, you either:
1) Have no rules
2) Have rules you abide by
3) Have rules where you abide by them per YOUR interpretation of them

If you are in 1) or 3), there are "going to be problems...".
Are you in "camp 1 or 3"?

Karl

Was alcohol prohibited in this park, by law or park regulation? I missed that post.



The finals in Bowling Green were held on a municipal ball golf course. Beer is sold on the course, and in the clubhouse, and is indeed legal on the property.

Chap

Your example is indeed ridiculous because play was suspended. When play is suspended, the rules no longer apply. Otherwise you'd have to give strokes for practice throws, courtesy violations for loud cursing, etc.

Bottom line is that when tournament play is in effect, 804.05 A. (4) stipulates that activities which are in violation of the law or park regulation, including the illegal consumption of drugs or alcohol, is a DQable offense. And the Competition Manual states that the use of alcohol is forbidden from the 2-minute warning until the player�s scorecard is submitted. End of story.



Please provide a rule or comp manual reference that supports your hypothesis above. I've looked, and I haven't found it. I can't find any rule that states that the player in my ridiculous situation shouldn't be DQ'd, at least by the black-and-white letter of the rules, other than common sense (which should prevail in that situation). Your bolded statement is your emphasis, and 804.05 does not support your assertion.

Chap

Karl,

In basketball there is frequently no doubt that there was contact, defined by the rules as a foul, but the refereed uses judgement as to how much.

My point is that we won't crash into anarchy if, at times, we consider the degree of violation before enforcing the rule. I think this sip of beer clearly violated the rule. In my opinion, it did so at no consequence. If other players or officials had called him on it at the time, they would have been within their right. If, in their judgement the severity of the violation, in that particular instance, did not merit a call, I'm fine with it. (Now, had it been illegal in the park, I'd feel a little differently).

I think the better argument against me, and in favor of very strict rules enforcement, is that unlike the other sports I've cited, where everyone in the contest is subject to the same gray line of rules, we could have different standards of rules enforcement in different player groups, putting some at a competitive disadvantage. I'm not sure the sip of beer 10 seconds too early disadvantaged anyone else on the course, though.

without looking...

The comp manual states that DQ is mandatory for B tiers and up when consumption takes place before the score card is turned in.

This is a logic exercise. You won't find this addressed in the rules or the comp manual. It does not need to be.

If the tournament has been suspended, then it has been stopped, perhaps to be resumed later, but nonetheless stopped. If it is stopped, then there is no tournament. If there is no tournament, there are no rules to apply to the player who has a glass of wine with his supper.

If the PDGA wants to regulate player activity during a tournament suspension, then that needs to be expressed in 804.04. Currently, the only regulations are those enumerated in 804.04 A through G.

If the tournament has been suspended, then it has been stopped, perhaps to be resumed later, but nonetheless stopped. If it is stopped, then there is no tournament. If there is no tournament, there are no rules to apply to the player who has a glass of wine with his supper.





exactly... and if there are no rules, then there are only guidelines.

I personally think the "we can't go back and DQ him" argument is bogus.

What if we found out he added weight to his discs after the tournament? No big deal b/c the tournament is over?

Breaking the rules is breaking the rules. It really is that simple. Breaking the rules is breaking the rules. It really is that simple



<font color="blue"> [personal attack deleted] </font>

He noticebly seems to back away from the person offering him the congratulory cheers, but takes a drink. So be it. Why not congratulate the guy for winning a big event. I don't even know the guy.

rules are the rules though, and if they will not be enforced I will be happy to be chugging a beer coming up 18 at am nationals

David,

A reasonable soul you seem to be, and we're probably not so far apart in our view of this situation - just slightly on either side of the see-saw. So, having said that...

Your...

My point is that we won't crash into anarchy if, at times, we consider the degree of violation before enforcing the rule.


...begs me to say two things.

1) Remember, my use of the term "anarchy" accompanied the "no rules" scenario - one which I know you're not advocating, and

2) "...we consider the degree..." part of your statement I don't agree with! Way before ever being charged with making a decision on the "degree" (of an infraction), the rules committee (of that sport) should have layed down a rubicon showing where that "degree" lay!
If not, then, a. the rule needs more specificity to give the official "ground to stand on" (when making that call), or b. it must be interpreted as "black or white" (as written) until a. can be implemented.

To have ANY rule being able to be "interpreted" just opens one up for ridicule / credibility issues (read: subjective judging in diving, gymnastics, etc. or a pass interference call being called on a DB the play after he just "ran over" the FJ).
Not to say the sport (any sport) can't exist WITH such, just that - if possible - if rules CAN be made 'black and white' they probably SHOULD be.

In the BG case, I believe the relevant rules DO state certain things.
Whether that rule should be changed or not is another discussion.

Karl

Apologies, Karl. I wasn't targeting your use of the word "anarchy" in particular.

Others here, and whenever this comes up, have sometimes suggested that if we don't enforce every rule to the letter of the law, in black &amp; white, with maximum penalty,then we effectively don't have any rules and disaster will result. Taking the argument to its absurd conclusion.

I suggest that in the sports I've been associated with, some rules are enforced strictly, some interpreted, some enforced based on severity ("unnecessary roughness", "celebrating" in football) or situation (flooding off the sidelines onto the field.....before the clock winds down to 0:00). It doesn't bother me to have the people making this ruling to decide that this was different from beerdrinking while playing, that it was understandable at the moment (I've never given a courtesy warning when someone hits an ace and yells, though he really shouldn't), and did not merit DQ.

If the referrees---in this case, the other members of the card or the TD, assuming he or she were present---use judgement in forgiving this technical transgression, I'm fine with it. We're still playing under rules, the same way other sports I've been involved with do.

....and you're doubtless right that we are closer than it appears in our opinions. I support DQ for drinking during play. I'd like to see the culture change to where footfaults were always called, and no one minded. (After all, no one minds in basketball if they step on the line, even by half an inch, and are called out of bounds---if in self-officiated pickup games, when called by an opponent). And more conformity to the rules, in general.

David,

Agreed.

And as for the people present 'overlooking' that aspect, I'm guessing they didn't even think of it! I was there and I know I was all caught up in the revelry of the situation (and lamenting (just a bit - coulda / woulda / shoulda ;) ) over coming in 2nd in my division).

Karl

karl, did you hole out?

The tournament is over, so said player will still keep the victory and prizes. People who were there had time to make objections, and evidently, no one did.

The infraction here was not a subjective one, so there is no grey area where we can use judgment, such as in 801.03 Excessive Time, part A(3): the playing area is clear and free of distractions.

I thought you took 45 seconds after I thought the playing area was clear and free of distractions, but you had a distraction that I was not aware of, so you claim that, after that distraction had dissipated, you took less than 30 seconds.


The issue here, which deals with what the Comp. Manual says, from 3.3 Professional Misconduct:

D. The use of alcohol is forbidden from the 2-minute warning
until the player�s scorecard is submitted. Such use shall
result in immediate disqualification at a B Tier or higher
event.

So, the issue here is, was the scorecard considered "submitted"? Let's look at the Rules of Play.

From 804.03 Scoring:

E. At the end of the round, each player shall sign his or her scorecard indicating that he or she attests to the accuracy of the score on each hole and the total
score. If all the players of the group agree that a hole score was recorded in error, the score may be changed prior to the scorecard being turned in. Players whose scorecards are turned in unsigned accept responsibility for the scores reported.

F. All players are responsible for returning their scorecards within 25 minutes after the completion of a
round. Failure to do so shall result in the assessment of two penalty throws, without a warning, to each player listed
on the late scorecard.


From the above, the soonest that the scorecard could be considered turned in, or submitted, would be when your score has been recorded, with the total, and you are given a chance to check it. You don't have to sign it, as you can read above.

You also have 25 minutes to turn in a scorecard after the round is completed, so it cannot be considered to be submitted until the card, which has had a chance to be reviewed by each player, is given to the TD's designate.

From what y'all are saying about the video, this player was not given a chance to review the scorecard, so the card could not be considered turned in, or submitted, so, technically, the player could have been DQ'd, but everyone there knew that the competition was over, functionally if not technically, so no one made notice of the alcohol consumption.

Your example is indeed ridiculous because play was suspended. When play is suspended, the rules no longer apply. Otherwise you'd have to give strokes for practice throws, courtesy violations for loud cursing, etc.

Bottom line is that when tournament play is in effect, 804.05 A. (4) stipulates that activities which are in violation of the law or park regulation, including the illegal consumption of drugs or alcohol, is a DQable offense. And the Competition Manual states that the use of alcohol is forbidden from the 2-minute warning until the player�s scorecard is submitted. End of story.



Please provide a rule or comp manual reference that supports your hypothesis above. I've looked, and I haven't found it. I can't find any rule that states that the player in my ridiculous situation shouldn't be DQ'd, at least by the black-and-white letter of the rules, other than common sense (which should prevail in that situation). Your bolded statement is your emphasis, and 804.05 does not support your assertion.

Chap

This is a logic exercise. You won't find this addressed in the rules or the comp manual. It does not need to be.

If the tournament has been suspended, then it has been stopped, perhaps to be resumed later, but nonetheless stopped. If it is stopped, then there is no tournament. If there is no tournament, there are no rules to apply to the player who has a glass of wine with his supper.

If the PDGA wants to regulate player activity during a tournament suspension, then that needs to be expressed in 804.04. Currently, the only regulations are those enumerated in 804.04 A through G.



This is indeed a logic exercise, and a useless one at that. Does it actually need to be spelled out that if you're no longer on the disc golf course because of a suspension of play, then the rules are no longer in effect? Are you going to give a courtesy violation for littering because someone left their napkin on the ground after dinner during a suspension of play?

These hypothetical 'letter of the law' arguments which go against all common sense are ridiculous. Consuming alcohol on the disc golf course, during tournament play, before a putt has been removed from the basket, and possibly before the player�s scorecard has been submitted, which are directly in violation of what is written in the Rules and the Competition Manual, and actual video proof of the incident, is what we're discussing here.

Yes Beer is marketed at all sports, even Disc Golf look at he main sponsor for Worlds last year. But the difference is it is marketed to the spectators.



That is an incorrect statement. In disc golf 100% of the marketing is geared towards players since there are no spectators. 99.9% of spectators at all events, including worlds, are just players not playing or their family.

Gregory,

Yes, thank goodness ;) !
Didn't know it at the time (I never do), but needed that strong-tail-windy 18 footer to get second from Ernie.
And wasn't offered a beer - second place rarely is (wouldn't have accepted one anyway as I had a 13+ hour drive back to CT coming up).

Karl

From what y'all are saying about the video, this player was not given a chance to review the scorecard, so the card could not be considered turned in, or submitted, so, technically, the player could have been DQ'd, but everyone there knew that the competition was over, functionally if not technically, so no one made notice of the alcohol consumption.


but he had never holed out, his putter was still in the basket at the time the beer was consumed, thats the issue, not who was keeping score

Why did the spectator with the beer state that it had been waiting 10 minutes for the player to finish? It is evident that an awareness of the rule existed, but there was also some confusion about the exact requirements of the rule.

There are many situations in other sports where a winning score was recalled for an unrelated penalty that had no impact on the score. The score is brought back anyway. This is a case of someone not following the rule as written in a very high profile event. It is a technicality and the player clearly did not initiate the activity, but he did not decline either.

The rules are clear. No alcohol consumption until after the round. The round was not over, Kinkel did not hole out and the an argument on if his score card was turned in or not is still out there.

I see 2 valid rule references on why he should be DQ'd.

I hardly ever see anyone be made an example of out of this rule, I think it would be great if he was made the example. Sure, he just won the biggest tournament of his life but rules are rules... or so I thought. Are they not ? Where is Chuck's answer on this one ?

Where is Chuck's answer on this one ?



You're right, he's yet to weigh in. We have had one of the rules committee members already heavily weigh their opinion.

Where is Chuck's answer on this one ?



You're right, he's yet to weigh in. We have had one of the rules committee members already heavily weigh their opinion.



Note that I weigh in with my opinion, and it's not necessarily the opinion of the Rules Committee.

Jeff, it's clear to me that when a round is suspended, that means it's temporarily halted, but that it isn't over. Therefore the Comp Manual policy must still apply during the suspension of play, as it's clearly after the 2 minute warning and before the scorecard was turned in.

Jeff, you're using common sense to state that the rules don't apply during a suspension of play, even though the rules don't specifically support your assertion. Kudos to you. Can you also see that I'm using common sense to not DQ a player who faithfully has abided by all rules and policies until after he threw his last competitive shot of the tournament? If you'll agree that black-and-white isn't always the way to go, we can move on.

Robert...a rule is a rule, eh? I bet I could follow a group, call every violation no matter how small or insignificant, and even if they were seasoned pros, I bet I could get 3-4 penalty throws apiece for marking violations, stance violations, or what have you. Now that group would probably kill me by the time they got to hole 10, but every violation I called would be technically correct (even if it was for mismarking the lie by less than a centimeter). Is that the way you really want to play it? At some point, we have to call hte violations that really matter, and we have to trust our TDs and officials to have the common sense and judgment and we need to give them the latitude to make those calls. Otherwise we could have any mindless automoton be an official.

Also, there's no provision in the rules for using video to change the results of a tournament after the event is over, and I hope there never is. We've seen people try and post videos to prove someone foot faults, etc....and normally we just don't have the angles or resolution to see it clearly. I've looked at the video, and you can't say with any certainty that Blaine is even drinking a BEER! Yes, I'm pretty sure the liquid in the cup is beer, but there's no way to prove that by simply looking at the video. You'd have to do more investigation.

Also, one could argue that the scorecard was already turned in, because the official scorekeeper already had it in his possession. Blaine is neither required to sign the card by rule, nor is he required to check it over. He is RESPONSIBLE for what's on the card, but there's no rule that requires that he check it. That's an awful lot of trust in my opinion, but to each his own.

Chap

It is obviously Cream Soda.

I'm done with this. Now we're arguing whether the liquid is even beer? http://www.bearclaws.org/forum/images/smilies/icon_rolleyes.gif

"At some point, we have to call the violations that really matter." Well I guess then that the alcohol rule doesn't really matter, because we have blatant video proof of a competitor consuming alcohol on the disc golf course, during tournament play, before a putt has been removed from the basket, and possibly before the player�s scorecard has been submitted, which is directly in violation of what is written in the Rules and the Competition Manual, and at least one Rules Committee member is essentially saying that it's kosher. :confused:

Kind of like De Vicenzo's scorecard, it was after the round and didn't effect his play.

If we want corporate sponsers at our tournaments we can't complain when they reward the winner.

You could indict him under the letter of the law, but I'll bet a jury of his peers would vote to acquit.

Yes Beer is marketed at all sports, even Disc Golf look at he main sponsor for Worlds last year. But the difference is it is marketed to the spectators.



That is an incorrect statement. In disc golf 100% of the marketing is geared towards players since there are no spectators. 99.9% of spectators at all events, including worlds, are just players not playing or their family.



I stand corrected. the point I was trying to make is Alcohol "beer" is marketed to fans of most shorts. baseball, basketball. racing etc. even ball golf. but you do not see the pro of these sports on the field, court, course which a beer in there hands. like you do in disc golf.

Thank you for pointing out my error.

I'm done with this. Now we're arguing whether the liquid is even beer? http://www.bearclaws.org/forum/images/smilies/icon_rolleyes.gif

"At some point, we have to call the violations that really matter." Well I guess then that the alcohol rule doesn't really matter, because we have blatant video proof of a competitor consuming alcohol on the disc golf course, during tournament play, before a putt has been removed from the basket, and possibly before the player�s scorecard has been submitted, which is directly in violation of what is written in the Rules and the Competition Manual, and at least one Rules Committee member is essentially saying that it's kosher. :confused:



No, we have video evidence of a player, after his final throw, drinking something that someone later said was alcohol, without evidence of whether it was noticed by, or known to be alcohol by, other members of his group or an official at the time. To my knowledge we lack "proof", or even evidence, that anyone realized a rule was broken before prizes were awarded and results final.

To my knowledge---and I suspect the knowledge of the other posters here---the only people who know might be Blaine, and the person who handed him the drink. You could argue that the player should know the rule.

But among the things we don't know is whether (1) he knew the rule but chose to ignore it, or (2) he did not know the rule or misunderstood the rule, knowing alcohol is forbidden but thinking the last shot ended his round, or (3) he knew the rule but, in the giddiness of the moment, didn't think of it.

What is the statute of limitations here?

I committed a stance violation at Govan in 2005. It was very hot, and only when I thought of it later did I realize I had not made the correct ruling. Should I contact the PDGA and offer to forego the points? After all, a rule's a rule!

again the scorecard to me is irrelevant since as stated before he did not hole out before consuming beer, yes it was beer, i know the guy who handed it to him, everyone in the park was drinking beer out of those same cups, lets not be ignorant here

more or less I would like to know what the pdga's future stance is on this as if no enforcements at national events will be made, I will be glad to take advantage of them

Also, one could argue that the scorecard was already turned in, because the official scorekeeper already had it in his possession. Blaine is neither required to sign the card by rule, nor is he required to check it over. He is RESPONSIBLE for what's on the card, but there's no rule that requires that he check it. That's an awful lot of trust in my opinion, but to each his own.

Chap



Is it possible to for one to submit a scorecard before holing out, and before one's round is over?

I do not know of any parks in Illinois where it is legal to drink. I've played all but 14 of the courses listed on the course directory.

My issues are exactly what you described wyattcoggin. I have worked with many park districts in the area. The office people view disc golf as a bunch of drunk punk kid vandals. Garbage cans are overflowing with beer cans in parks that are illegal to drink in. Even worse, bottles are broken and beer cans litter many properties. It's a constant battle to keep courses clean. The perception of disc golf in most cases are negatives. The athletic director at the high school I coach at found out I played disc golf. He immediately called me a dope smoking frisbee chucker. Until disc golfers realize that most people outside our sport think disc golf is a bunch of beer drinking/dope smoking idiots, the game will continue to stay at the bottom.



Thank you.

I hear the same thing. this is why I speakout on the issue.

.

OK. If someone called him out then and there we might have a situation where there could be a legitimate DQ. It didn't happen. He has learned a public lesson and its over. Next...

David,

Let me 100% clear on one thing: I am 1000 times more concerned with how our rules are written and interepreted, than over a "statute of limitations" issue and enforcing any disciplinary action on the competitor at Bowling Green. I did not attend the event. I don't know the competitor. If I was very concerned about resolving that, I would submit something to the PDGA Disciplinary Committee. I have not done so and will not do so.

I am truly concerned however with how our rules are written and interpreted. The rules don't say that "that the use of alcohol is forbidden from the 2-minute warning until the final putt is thrown into the basket." The rules say that "the use of alcohol is forbidden from the 2-minute warning until the player�s scorecard is submitted." As Daemon keeps correctly pointing out: Is it possible for one to submit a scorecard before holing out, and before one's round is over?

I am also just bothered that people continue to make up bogus loopholes and excuses around it. Where indisputable evidence is needed from a jury of peers. Where the possibility that the liquid wasn't even beer. Give me a break! Should the PDGA bring a portable gas chromatograph to 'A' tiers and Majors to submit the sample in question for chemical analysis of percent ethanol?

Most troubling of all is the assertion that "At some point, we have to call the violations that really matter." Even in casual rounds, I call falling putts, stance violations, and other rules violations when I see them. Ask my friends (and yes, I do have have friends) and they'll vouch for that. That we're leaving the decision to call rules violations up to each competitor (and his/her interpretation of what "really matters") is very bothersome. That we're basically dismissing one of the most important rules in our rulebook concerning alcohol use and something that could be a major stepping stone in our evolution to a respected sport is just egregious, imo. If that is our stance, and we have even Rules Committee members inferring that there will be no enforcement of the rule, then I don't blame one bit people like Matthew who vow to "be glad to take advantage of them" at future national events.

Kind of like De Vicenzo's scorecard, it was after the round and didn't effect his play.



But it does directly affect his play, because adding your scorecard and keeping it properly is part of the game. How we do know who wins if score is not kept?

Chap

Hey, I'd love to see the rules better written---which I hope these debates lead to---and more precisely enforced.

I still favor application of judgement and perspective.

If a player foot-faults by a half-inch, I don't care. If he throws from 25 feet from his lie, I do.

If a player is drinking during his round, I care. If he takes a sip after all his throws, perhaps seconds before his round is officially over, on a course where it is otherwise legal, I don't.

John,

Your post...

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Kind of like De Vicenzo's scorecard, it was after the round and didn't effect his play.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



But it does directly affect his play, because adding your scorecard and keeping it properly is part of the game. How we do know who wins if score is not kept?



...I'm guessing you're misinterpreting. He may be saying this tongue in cheek.
He and you are in agreement that Di Vicenzo WAS wrong...and did / should have suffered the consequences.


David,

Your...

If a player foot-faults by a half-inch, I don't care. If he throws from 25 feet from his lie, I do.



...begs me to then (possibly) retract my statement about you being reasonable.

If you don't care about 1/2-inch, how about 1-inch? 6-inches? 2-feet? Where do YOU draw the line?

I can't believe you said that (your quote)!

Karl

so then its ok to just selectively choose what rules we want to follow and which we don't?

nice!

As Daemon keeps correctly pointing out:


Who is Daemon? and where is he in this discussion?

Karl, you're right. Bad example. I retract it....or amend it.

I don't care much about the 1/2" footfault. I'm fine with calling it, or having it called on me. I care much more about the 25' footfault, though.

If a player tosses a disc in his bag, 1' away, but in the direction of the basket, I'm not calling it a practice throw. As I understand it, the rules say any distance (1/4"?) towards the basket, if he's not at his lie, and he propels it, constitutes a practice throw. A rule is a rule. And yet, I don't see him gaining much practice, nor disrupting other players, to a consequential degree. I'll let it pass.

Oh, and if I've misquoted the practice throw rule....all I can say is I know the rules imperfectly, and it's a good thing I didn't call what I think I know!

As for where I draw the line.....well, I don't. Without asking you to go way back to my earlier post, my background in other sports leaves me comfortable with fuzzy lines and generally accepted standards, and accepting a referee's judgement in applying certain rules. I guess I'm just messed up that way.

Who is Daemon? and where is he in this discussion?



ah, daemon does not exist. there are no longer rules, only suggested guidelines and alcohol is not the issue... the guy never holed out. additionally, after not holing out and still in process of playing the final hole, he picked up and moved the target. the whole scene was really something else. everyone invloved should be ashamed to have allowed such shenanigans.

OK. Fine. Here's my argument, supported by rule:

<font color="blue">804.05A. A player shall be disqualified by the director for meeting any of the necessary conditions of
disqualification as set forth in the rules, or for any of the following:
(1) Unsportsmanlike conduct, such as; loud cursing, throwing things in anger (other than discs
in play), or overt rudeness to anyone present.
(2) Willful and overt destruction or abuse of plant life, course hardware, or any other
property considered part of the disc golf course or the park.
(3) Cheating: a willful attempt to circumvent the rules of play.
(4) Activities which are in violation of the law or park regulation or disc golf course rule,
including the illegal consumption of drugs or alcohol.

Directors are granted the discretion to disqualify a player based on the severity of the offending conduct. An official warning of disqualification may be issued by a director where appropriate.
</font>

Then we have the comp manual, which says that the player shall be DQ'd, where the rules book says the TD has the authority to issue a warning.

We have an apparent conflict.

So, when all else fails, we go back to little ole' rule 803.01F...the Rule of Fairness

<font color="blue">F . Rule of Fairness. If any point in dispute is not covered by the rules, the decision shall be made in
accordance with fairness. Often a logical extension of the closest existing rule or the
principles embodied in these rules will provide guidance for determining fairness. </font>

It doesn't exactly fit, because the rules of play DO cover this issue, while the competition manual conflicts with 804.05A, but it's the best logical rule extension we have when he have an apparent conflict or when we have no idea how to rule on something. 803.01F's basic tenet is:

Do what's fair.

To me, and apparently the TD, it's clearly unfair to DQ the player in this instance. He did not drink alcohol in violation of park or disc golf rule. He did do so in violation of the Comp Manual policy, which isn't technically a rule, so it doesn't apply here.

For those of you who think that the round wasn't over because he hadn't holed out, look up these rules and definitions:

Rule 800: Definitons: Completion of a Round
Rule 803.13 Holing Out

First, some will claim he didn't hole out. Let's say you're right. The hole is still considered complete if you consider that he inadvertantly failed to hole out, as under 803.13A(2). You can blame the TD for not assessing the two penalty throws if you wish, but that doesn't change the fact that the hole is now complete. Even with the 2 penalty throws, Kinkel wins by 4.

800 Completion of a round,Completion of a Round: The round has been officially completed for all competitors when, in the director's opinion, the last group on the course has completed their final hole and has had reasonable time to travel from their final hole to tournament headquarters.

The director obviously considered the round to be over, else there would have a been a DQ or other penalty.

And lastly,

<font color="blue">G. After the scorecard is turned in, the total score as recorded shall stand with no appeal, except for the following circumstances:
(1) Penalty throws may be assessed at whatever time the infraction is discovered until the director declares the tournament officially over or all awards have been distributed.
(2) If it is determined that the total score was incorrectly recorded, either by an error on a hole score or by an error in totaling the hole scores, including omission of the total score, the director
shall add two penalty throws to the correct total score. These penalty throws are not added when the TD (or an official designated by the TD, such as a course director) corrects a player's score for other infractions determined after this player had turned in an otherwise correct scorecard.
(3) Late Scorecard. See 804.03 F.</font>

This means you can't change the outcome of the tournament after the fact, Mr. Leonard.

Chap

he did hole out, as can be seen in the video, so he did not fail to do so, that should not be an issue, its more or less that alcohol was consumed before this was done

An obvious problem I see with the rules covering this situation is demonstrated clearly in this thread.

There are posts from multiple people who are long time players, who are officials, TDs, and who are active on Rules and Disciplinary PDGA committees. In short, they have the experience to offer credible opinions.

Yet since the rules rely on "Fairness" and we have "logical extensions" of rules we have a problem. Reasonable and intelligent people often disagree on what is fair and logical. The result can be people treated inconsistently for doing the same thing.

Take these real examples.
Player A is in contention at a PDGA Major. He is late for the round and is penalized with par plus 4 for the holes he misses. This costs him $100s in prize money.

The following year Player A is at a Super Tour event. Player B has car trouble and will arrive late. The event start is delayed until player B arrives with no penalty. Player B wins the event and player A again comes out $100s behind because the same infraction was handled differently.

Looks like different TDs/Officials had different opinions of "Fairness". I'm guessing Player A doesn't think much of the "Fairness Rule"

Is there ONE right answer here? Nope.

And that is sometimes a problem. The rules we have are pretty good and seem to cover nearly all situations. But they aren't perfect and sometimes reasonable differences of opinions occur.

actually the rules state holing out consists of the player removing their putter from the basket. either way I doubt anything will be done by the PDGA so lets move on

Chap,

That's what I said in yesterday's post. The tournament is over, so the outcome shall not be changed.

And, you presented your argument pretty well, using the rules and the Comp Manual - good job. I think common sense prevailed there - the physical part of the tournament was over for the player, and it was legal to drink beer in the park. The fact that there were no problems with it shows that fairness was used. At least I hope so - I hope it wasn't a lack of knowledge of the Rules that lead to no one bringing anything up right then and there.

I am looking forward to chatting with you in KC, assuming I can get a spot when the enrollment opens up in a month. One thing though - I know you were not speaking as a member of the Rules Committee, but you did tag your post with your WDGC title, and it was a little troubling for me to read that you think that some rules are more important than others. You have every right to think that, of course, and I have been trying to get the following questions answered from others, so maybe you can help me out here.

I don't want to be a PITA to my group if and when I am there at KC, so which Rules of Play do you think are most important, and which ones should I not make a big deal about? For instance, if someone doesn't keep score as directed in the rules, should I correct them, or should I wait until it is my turn? Also, if I call a foot fault on a player, let's say it was on the tee, and no one else could second it because they were not paying attention to the throw, can I not warn those players, with a follow up penalty, that they are not following the rules, since what good is a violation call if there is no way it can be seconded.

Thanks in advance,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_V5F969634

holing out as has been redefined by the new pdga suggested guidleines.

A quick test for your rule-calling vacation: How would a jury of 12 disc golfers rule?

Would it be a unanimous conviction? If so, call it. Feel free.

Would the jury be dealocked down the middle? Don't call it, but a start a thread on it after worlds.

- the physical part of the tournament was over for the player

taking your putter out of the basket would not be defined as physical activity, so I need not worry about doing it on other holes then? why is taking your putter out on hole 18 different then hole 1, according to the rules it must be done

I am looking forward to chatting with you in KC, assuming I can get a spot when the enrollment opens up in a month. One thing though - I know you were not speaking as a member of the Rules Committee, but you did tag your post with your WDGC title



I'll remove that from my signature line, if that's the issue. Good point, though, although as TD, if presented with the same situation, I would rule exactly the same way, and it would be my call to make (or Jack Lowe's, depending on the situation, although I can confirm we're of a like mind on this), so I can speak for myself on that topic as TD, where I cannot speak for the whole Rules Committee.


and it was a little troubling for me to read that you think that some rules are more important than others. You have every right to think that, of course, and I have been trying to get the following questions answered from others, so maybe you can help me out here.



I don't know if some RULES are more important than others, but definitely there are some rules VIOLATIONS that should be called, and some that should be left alone. In otherwords, some violations of the same rule are bigger than other. For example, if I mismark my lie, advancing my mini say 1/8" too far toward the basket, that's technincally a violation, but I'm not going to make that call, because it really doesn't make a difference, especially if my supporting point is more than 1/8" away from my mini (and it probably is). I've taken a legal stance, yet mismarked. There's shades of violations...where do I draw the line? We can certainly talk about that.

Now what David was talking about earlier...if you misstep and technically foot fault by about an inch on a wide open, 400 ft. upshot, I'm probably not calling that. If you do the same thing 15 ft. from the basket because you're trying to stretch out and throw around an obstacle, I'm DEFINITELY calling that one, because you're clearly gaining an advantage by violating the rule. And I'll always call a foot fault, even on a long fairway shot, where someone steps on their mini, or steps past their mini before releasing the throw, because they've advanced closer to the hole before releasing the disc.


I don't want to be a PITA to my group if and when I am there at KC, so which Rules of Play do you think are most important, and which ones should I not make a big deal about? For instance, if someone doesn't keep score as directed in the rules, should I correct them, or should I wait until it is my turn? Also, if I call a foot fault on a player, let's say it was on the tee, and no one else could second it because they were not paying attention to the throw, can I not warn those players, with a follow up penalty, that they are not following the rules, since what good is a violation call if there is no way it can be seconded.



In case one, I never said some rules are more important than others, but some violations of those rules are bigger than others, as I've pointed out above.

In case two, if you warn a group for not making a foot fault second, you'd better make sure it was because they weren't paying attention, and not just because they didn't agree with you. Also, sometimes a player can be paying attention and just not have a good angle to see what you saw from a different angle. That happens to good officials in basketball and football all the time, and they're actively TRYING to maintain good position to see things. And if you do warn in that situation, make sure you tell a course director or marshal so it gets back to me, because that's something I'd want to know about.

Lastly, Bill, I'd advise you to call what you see, and make sure you see what you call. In otherwords, don't go looking for a particular violation to occur, but call it if you happen to see it. If you look for something hard enough, you might see it, even if it isn't really there.

Chap

I am still wondering why Chuck hasn't chimed in on this ?

Chuck, we await your answer.

Chuck, we await your answer.



DNF chuck?

Now what David was talking about earlier...if you misstep and technically foot fault by about an inch on a wide open, 400 ft. upshot, I'm probably not calling that. If you do the same thing 15 ft. from the basket because you're trying to stretch out and throw around an obstacle, I'm DEFINITELY calling that one, because you're clearly gaining an advantage by violating the rule. And I'll always call a foot fault, even on a long fairway shot, where someone steps on their mini, or steps past their mini before releasing the throw, because they've advanced closer to the hole before releasing the disc.


I'm confused here, you say that you wont call a foot fault on a 400 ft wide open hole, but always call it on a "long fairway shot"?
Am I reading this correctly?

Chap,

Thank you for your reply. I can rely on your postings to be logical and well thought out.

I definitely agree that there are some rules violations that are more important than others. Technically, failure to keep score correctly is a courtesy violation, per 801.01C:

Refusal to perform an action expected
by the rules, such as assisting in the
search for a lost disc, moving discs or
equipment, or keeping score properly,
etc., is a courtesy violation.

but I don't expect anyone to get warned for it.

BUT, what good does it do for a competitor to watch for foot faults on the tee box if no one else is watching (I am not expecting the thrower to be watching his foot as he throws)? If someone was watching and didn't have a good angle, OK, but I'm talking about someone who admits that they were not watching for a foot fault. Don't you think that this (in)action applies as "Refusal to perform an action expected by the rules"? and the above quoted rule should apply. This situation is not a black and white area. I call a foot fault, you don't second it because you saw it and thought it OK, that's fine; you don't second it because you were not paying attention, now we have a problem.

I would like to know if you see any subjectivity in this situation. If not, I would like to know if you would uphold the warning and any subsequent penalties for someone not paying attention to other players' actions. If you want to specify your opinion for tee shots only, that's fine, I would just like to know if you think that watching another player's throw, in case someone was to call some sort of throwing violation on that player, is an "action expected by the rules". Just your opinion.

Or, if you want to get more specific, you could say, if one player is watching the thrower for rules infractions, then the other players are at risk for a courtesy violation if said player calls a violation on the thrower and said players were not observing.

In other words, if another player is watching, the whole group better be watching. If no one is watching, then no one is at risk for a courtesy violation.


Thanks.

Well, it looks like I learned a few things today. Perhaps it would be valuable to review the things I learned.

#1) There are conflicts between what is written in the Rule book and the Competition Manual. Whenever this occurs, whatever applicable rules should be tossed out and we should just resort to 803.01F...the Rule of Fairness, whose basic tenet is: Do what's fair. (Which means don't make any call at all)

#2) The Comp Manual policy isn't technically a rule. So we can all free to ignore anything contained within it.

#3) Once your last shot goes in the basket, there's no need to wait - you are free to crack open a beer at that point. You can start drinking alcohol before you even remove your disc from the basket, or before you even check your scorecard or submit it to tournament central. If you happen to hit a hole-in-one on the last hole, then congratulations! You can crack open a beer on the tee pad, and celebrate that ace by marching down the fairway of the hole, chugging all the way. :cool:

there clearly is no subjectivity to this situation, it is cut and dry

can someone please write out a list of what rules I can break?

Jeff,

You need to drop #3 from your list. Nobody there called anything. I don't think we came to a consensus on what would/should have happened if someone did.

IG,

Let me know if anybody mans up with anything.

are you questioning my manhood?

can someone please write out a list of what rules I can break?



Such a list can only be made specifically for you and only on a "per round" basis, and furthermore that list can only be made after the parings have been made for that round so that we know exactly who is on your card. If your card or one next to you ends up as a two-some due to DNFs and your card-mates change after the list has been made, the list will then be considered null and void.

:)

<font color="blue"> [message deleted due to making sense] </font>

How did you get


are you questioning my manhood?



from what I said?

You can crack open a beer on the tee pad, and celebrate that ace by marching down the fairway of the hole, chugging all the way

now we are talking my kinda golf..



welcome back Rhett such logical rhetoric made sense to me.. :D :p <font color="white"> are you working for the pdga now </font>

Now what David was talking about earlier...if you misstep and technically foot fault by about an inch on a wide open, 400 ft. upshot, I'm probably not calling that. If you do the same thing 15 ft. from the basket because you're trying to stretch out and throw around an obstacle, I'm DEFINITELY calling that one, because you're clearly gaining an advantage by violating the rule. And I'll always call a foot fault, even on a long fairway shot, where someone steps on their mini, or steps past their mini before releasing the throw, because they've advanced closer to the hole before releasing the disc.


I'm confused here, you say that you wont call a foot fault on a 400 ft wide open hole, but always call it on a "long fairway shot"?
Am I reading this correctly?



read it again carefully.

there clearly is no subjectivity to this situation, it is cut and dry

can someone please write out a list of what rules I can break?



My guess would be

* All that the referees don't see.

* All that the referees don't call.

Like virtually every other sport.

ok, let me try this again, i don't see how this could be seen any other way

last putt is made, celebration starts, basket is picked up, beer is consumed, putter is picked up out of the basket to complete hole out and complete around, round is not over until this happens as stated in the rules

am i missing something?

the discussion board has a more rigid set of rules than the actual game. ask yourself, if no one minds until after it has happened, can i personally attack people on the discussion board without penalty?

Maybe he was picking up the basket trying to remove his putter. :-)

It can be argued back and forth here for at least another week, but once the awards are handed out, the result is final. Now, if someone feels the urge to submit something to the disciplinary committee, the DC can take this up and go from there.

btw who is on the DC right now? I can't seem to find the list of committee members on the web site.

ok, let me try this again, i don't see how this could be seen any other way

last putt is made, celebration starts, basket is picked up, beer is consumed, putter is picked up out of the basket to complete hole out and complete around, round is not over until this happens as stated in the rules

am i missing something?



A lot.

Rule has been broken.

Rule can be applied, and player DQ'd.

IF someone eligible to make the call noticed.
IF it occured to that person that the rule had been broken.
IF they decided to call it.

The last is subjective, a factor we live with in disc golf, other sports, and life.

The DC is headed up by Shawn Sinclair.

I am one of the 5 or 6 members that work with Shawn. I am in no way allowed to comment if we recieved something about this and if we did what we decided.

I am in no way allowed to comment if we recieved something about this and if we did what we decided.



you are, however, allowed to pick up a portable basket being used as part of a tournament layout and do a little dance with it.

I am in no way allowed to comment if we recieved something about this and if we did what we decided.



you are, however, allowed to pick up a portable basket being used as part of a tournament layout and do a little dance with it.



You don't want to see me dance :D

the discussion board has a more rigid set of rules than the actual game. ask yourself, if no one minds until after it has happened, can i personally attack people on the discussion board without penalty?



A great analogy. Most discussion board rules are subjective. Other than perhaps specifying certain words as prohibited.

If no one notices the violation, no penalty. If someone notices but doesn't make the call, no penalty. If someone notices but feels the violation doesn't warrant penalty, they don't report it and no penalty.

Biggest difference seems to be that a tournament can be over; this discussion never is.

The discussion can easily end because the precedents have been now been established by our resident Rules Committee member:

#1) You can't change the outcome of the tournament after the fact.
#2) Whenever there are conflicts between what is written in the Rule book and the Competition Manual, make no call at all.
#3) The Comp Manual policy isn't technically a rule anyway - feel free to ignore anything contained within it.
#4) Once your last shot of your round goes in the basket, alcohol consumption is perfectly fine.

#2) Whenever there are conflicts between what is written in the Rule book and the Competition Manual, make no call at all.




Why is there even a need for both? All they do is contradict each other.

There is a tremendous difference between a refereed sport and a self regulated one. In a refereed sport, you are taught to push the edges of what is against the rules until you are called. Players to not attempt to follow the rules, they attempt to get away with everything they can without being caught. It doesn't really matter because everyone is on the same field or court at the same time subject to the same circumstances.

In a self regulated sport where every competitor is not subject to the same conditions unless every competitor follows all of the rules in the same fashion. That is the only manner of enforcement that provides a level playing field and the only option the PDGA can afford to support. If rules that are black and white become subjective, where does the line get drawn?

If a player states beforehand that they are going to drink a beer as soon as they make their last putt should it be treated differently? Watching the video, he is clearly hesitant to accept the beer. I don't know the reason for his hesitation, but suspect the rule may have had something to do with it.

Jeff,

When I told you to drop #3, I didn't mean for you to move it to #4 :D

Re: my question regarding players not watching for foot faults or other violations. I have submitted my question to the RC. The latest wrinkle is that 801.01C states that it would be a courtesy violation for "Refusal to perform an action expected by the rules..." So, that could mean that if no one is requested to watch, there is no refusal. If I saw Player B foot fault, but I did not ask Players C and D to watch, and they did not watch, does that mean that they committed no courtesy violation, because they did not "refuse", they simply were not asked.

Too many other issues to deal with while traveling. Figured you guys could hash this out.

who knows? plenty of olympic medals have been stripped after the fact. will someone tell me where the petition, that we were all signing in order become an official sport, is located? if so, i will not sign it again.

It's a valid point that our imprecise rules enforcement can affect different people in the same competition, because they're in different groups. Not in this particular case, as far as I know, no one else sipped a celebratory beer seconds too early and was disqualified. But theoretically.

We are only partially a self-regulated sport. Calls may be made by the player himself, or other members of his group, or other competitors (in same cases), or officials. All acting as referees.

Doesn't change my opinion that gray areas may exist, in either the rule or enforcement of it, just as in impartially-refereed sports, at no great harm.

ok, let me try this again, i don't see how this could be seen any other way

last putt is made, celebration starts, basket is picked up, beer is consumed, putter is picked up out of the basket to complete hole out and complete around, round is not over until this happens as stated in the rules

am i missing something?

Are you seriously saying that you often play in groups at sanctioned tournaments where there is not beer drinking and dope smoking? Does this only happen in the age-restricted divisions? Seriously, I thought the only time people followed that rule was when they got stuck in the same group as the TD or his sidekick, or when they are playing in an urban or suburban park that doesn't offer much cover. I've seen 804.05 and its cousin in the secret rule book violated at virtually every non-major tournament I've played where I was not the TD's sidekick. I've seen the rule violated at half the tournaments where I AM the TD's sidekick, but you know what? I'm treating this rule just like the PDGA is treating it right now: if no one is calling it in the group, I'm not calling it from downwind or the next fairway over, even if it is on video on my website! I say to all TDs out there who don't like enforcing the PDGA's prohibition rules, take a cue from the PDGA. If the violation is right in front of you and no one is complaining, there really isn't a violation.

ok, let me try this again, i don't see how this could be seen any other way

last putt is made, celebration starts, basket is picked up, beer is consumed, putter is picked up out of the basket to complete hole out and complete around, round is not over until this happens as stated in the rules

am i missing something?

Are you seriously saying that you often play in groups at sanctioned tournaments where there is not beer drinking and dope smoking? Does this only happen in the age-restricted divisions? Seriously, I thought the only time people followed that rule was when they got stuck in the same group as the TD or his sidekick, or when they are playing in an urban or suburban park that doesn't offer much cover. I've seen 804.05 and its cousin in the secret rule book violated at virtually every non-major tournament I've played where I was not the TD's sidekick. I've seen the rule violated at half the tournaments where I AM the TD's sidekick, but you know what? I'm treating this rule just like the PDGA is treating it right now: if no one is calling it in the group, I'm not calling it from downwind or the next fairway over, even if it is on video on my website! I say to all TDs out there who don't like enforcing the PDGA's prohibition rules, take a cue from the PDGA. If the violation is right in front of you and no one is complaining, there really isn't a violation.



Must be a regional thing. People do not violate at the tourneys I'm at. Honestly it is pathetic to think people can't go 2 hours without. Not that I'm against either, just not during competition.

I've said this 1000 times...

The issues we have in PDGA events is rooted back to local clubs and local events.

Some people have the attitude that since an event is not sanctioned that they can do whatever they want. Then the tournament directors and local clubs don't do anything about it and that behaivor is passed on to PDGA play.

Stop the behaivor in local events and over time you will see an improvement. I am a witness to this.

quote]
ok, let me try this again, i don't see how this could be seen any other way

last putt is made, celebration starts, basket is picked up, beer is consumed, putter is picked up out of the basket to complete hole out and complete around, round is not over until this happens as stated in the rules

am i missing something?

Are you seriously saying that you often play in groups at sanctioned tournaments where there is not beer drinking and dope smoking? Does this only happen in the age-restricted divisions? Seriously, I thought the only time people followed that rule was when they got stuck in the same group as the TD or his sidekick, or when they are playing in an urban or suburban park that doesn't offer much cover. I've seen 804.05 and its cousin in the secret rule book violated at virtually every non-major tournament I've played where I was not the TD's sidekick. I've seen the rule violated at half the tournaments where I AM the TD's sidekick, but you know what? I'm treating this rule just like the PDGA is treating it right now: if no one is calling it in the group, I'm not calling it from downwind or the next fairway over, even if it is on video on my website! I say to all TDs out there who don't like enforcing the PDGA's prohibition rules, take a cue from the PDGA. If the violation is right in front of you and no one is complaining, there really isn't a violation.

[/QUOTE]

oh i've seen it bruce, and how......

I can honestly say that I have not seen it at a sanctioned event during the round in a very long time. I can also say that I have heard that players discussed the point of avoiding doing anything around me before I was grouped with them. I have suspected abuse on a couple of occasions, but haven't actually seen it.

I have never had to report illegal activities, and only acted as a supporting witness in one situation. My well documented position is all that is needed to clean up the event within 100' of my card. If we had 18 - 20 more at an event then the whole course would be clear.

I've said this 1000 times...

The issues we have in PDGA events is rooted back to local clubs and local events.

Some people have the attitude that since an event is not sanctioned that they can do whatever they want. Then the tournament directors and local clubs don't do anything about it and that behaivor is passed on to PDGA play.

Stop the behaivor in local events and over time you will see an improvement. I am a witness to this.



I can care less what goes on a "local" events. These are intended to be more casual and fun where as sanctioned events are competition.

The DC is headed up by Shawn Sinclair.

I am one of the 5 or 6 members that work with Shawn. I am in no way allowed to comment if we recieved something about this and if we did what we decided.



If I recall correctly, Kathy Manley and Justin McLuen are also on the committee, and perhaps Kathy Hardyman as well.

Chap

The discussion can easily end because the precedents have been now been established by our resident Rules Committee member:

#1) You can't change the outcome of the tournament after the fact.



As established by rule.


#2) Whenever there are conflicts between what is written in the Rule book and the Competition Manual, make no call at all.



Actually, I said do whatever is fair as per PDGA Rule 803.01F. "Make no call at all" is either what you would do or your assertion or your comment on the situation...your assertion has no basis in rule or fact, although certainly that would be an option available to an official is that was the most fair thing to do. It certainly wouldn't be the only option.


#3) The Comp Manual policy isn't technically a rule anyway - feel free to ignore anything contained within it.



Again, your "analysis", which is neither supported by fact, rule, or logic.


#4) Once your last shot of your round goes in the basket, alcohol consumption is perfectly fine.



Round is over. It's certainly not a DQ-able offense, unless it's illegal in the venue.

Chap

Are you seriously saying that you often play in groups at sanctioned tournaments where there is not beer drinking and dope smoking? Does this only happen in the age-restricted divisions? Seriously, I thought the only time people followed that rule was when they got stuck in the same group as the TD or his sidekick, or when they are playing in an urban or suburban park that doesn't offer much cover. I've seen 804.05 and its cousin in the secret rule book violated at virtually every non-major tournament I've played where I was not the TD's sidekick. I've seen the rule violated at half the tournaments where I AM the TD's sidekick, but you know what? I'm treating this rule just like the PDGA is treating it right now: if no one is calling it in the group, I'm not calling it from downwind or the next fairway over, even if it is on video on my website! I say to all TDs out there who don't like enforcing the PDGA's prohibition rules, take a cue from the PDGA. If the violation is right in front of you and no one is complaining, there really isn't a violation.



Ohhhh Bruce. Hilarious post, reading it was the highlight of my day, so far. I agree with you, if the governing body of our sport is not going to enforce the rules, then why would I be expected to enforce them?

to anyone that has commented about their many observations at as many different events, have you ever seen someone hole out?


ah, so you do know the difference. disc golf... it's in the cooler.

Just as a caveat to any IOS players reading, Jon and Brett are not necessarily as libertarian as I am, and because alcohol is illegal in all our Illinois venues, and we want to respect park rules, don't expect lenient treatment if you get reported for a violation.

ok, let me try this again, i don't see how this could be seen any other way

last putt is made, celebration starts, basket is picked up, beer is consumed, putter is picked up out of the basket to complete hole out and complete around, round is not over until this happens as stated in the rules

am i missing something?

Are you seriously saying that you often play in groups at sanctioned tournaments where there is not beer drinking and dope smoking? Does this only happen in the age-restricted divisions? Seriously, I thought the only time people followed that rule was when they got stuck in the same group as the TD or his sidekick, or when they are playing in an urban or suburban park that doesn't offer much cover. I've seen 804.05 and its cousin in the secret rule book violated at virtually every non-major tournament I've played where I was not the TD's sidekick. I've seen the rule violated at half the tournaments where I AM the TD's sidekick, but you know what? I'm treating this rule just like the PDGA is treating it right now: if no one is calling it in the group, I'm not calling it from downwind or the next fairway over, even if it is on video on my website! I say to all TDs out there who don't like enforcing the PDGA's prohibition rules, take a cue from the PDGA. If the violation is right in front of you and no one is complaining, there really isn't a violation.



Wow - you're a lawyer?
People consider you a leader in the DG community?
If you are even remotely serious - you should never be allowed to sanction a tournament - ever.

I should not be allowed to sanction a tournament because 804.05 is widely disregarded by TDs and players in Michigan? How does that work? :p Or, I should not be allowed to sanction a tournament because I'm the only one honest enough to admit that this rule is widely ignored in Michigan? O.k., there you have a point. The last thing this organization wants is transparency. Too much transparency and were going to get prosecuted in some states.

The last time I played a certain popular annual Michigan sanctioned tournament, the TD's helper people were smoking dope in the pavillion and a non-player was driving up and down the main road through the park offering cold beer to any players whose beer wasn't cold anymore.

The rule in Michigan is, you make sure everyone is cool, and you offer one to everyone, and there's no violation. Like that other poster, I think you're just jealous. We have overruled 804.05 in this state by civil disobedience, and you can't get that going where you play. :D

And this is why the number of tournies I play decrease each year.

I have said it many time before in the past....if you cannot go for 2-3 hours without consuming a beer or doing other illegal activiites, then you have a problem. There are plenty of groups which can help you...

And this is why the number of tournies I play decrease each year.

I have said it many time before in the past....if you cannot go for 2-3 hours without consuming a beer or doing other illegal activiites, then you have a problem. There are plenty of groups which can help you...



Read Bruce's prior post. He's a libertarian, not an alcoholic. In fact, I don't think I have ever seen him take a sip of anything with alcohol. In Illinois he does enforce the rules because the local parks prohiibt alcohol and he wants to be allowed to keep running tournaments at the parks. I have not played sanctioned tournaments in Michigan other than Worlds but gather that its a lot wetter there. If people behave, play the game and don't get in my way, I'm a libertarian too. If they violate other rules because they are too hammered to pay attention, I will become a buzz killing narc.

That post wasn't directed at Bruce. It was general blanket statement about this whole thread.

The rules don't say "If people don't behave and get in your way, then become a buzz killing narc."

The rules say alcohol is not permitted during play, period.

I accidentally...this thread.

Matt,

Don't blame yourself (in while "winking") for starting this thread - I'm glad you did!
You can learn a lot about people - people whom you've only read that name of or heard "hearsay" about - when you dissect someone's argument (what they say, how they word it, how they stick to the subject (or not), how they try to divert anything that is counter to THEIR point of view, etc.).
In my mind, a few people here have "lost some credibility"; and that's too bad (but I'll get over it).
And I'll just know something (read: a BIG grain of salt worth of belief) when I next hear that "a certain person said this...".

Karl

Ps: And strange as it seems, the more I read / think about this topic, the more I'm inclined to "shift over" to wanting to reiterate what JL keeps stating.
Think of it as a "guilty" plead. If I were the 'big fellow', I'd be willing to "let bygones be bygones" IF IF IF all were to "see the light" and admit such (a VERY important point here). If not, then pay the wrath.

If somebody wants to partake while they are playing DG, that is their business, as long as I don't become guilty by association.

BUT, if somebody wants to partake while they are playing DG _in a PDGA sanctioned-tournament_ and the ingested material is covered under 804.05A(4), then it becomes my business, and I speak up.

If the groups in MI want to run tournaments where 804.05A(4) is ignored, then I would encourage them to not sanction their events with the Association, since there is probably something in the event sanctioning that calls for PDGA rules to be enforced during the event.

I am not angry at people who want to illegally partake during an event, I am just disappointed that they hold the sport in lower esteem than I do, and when I speak up, I try not to do so in anger, but in a way that shows that I am trying to defend the defenseless, because the Rules of Play, like the unborn, cannot defend themselves.

Yeah, I know that was a run-on sentence.

The last thing this organization wants is transparency.



wow, what a refreshing blast of clear, concise honesty! a flowing hydrant in a barren, dry desert. and from a lawyer to boot! good stuff! thanks

If the groups in MI want to run tournaments where 804.05A(4) is ignored, then I would encourage them to not sanction their events with the Association, since there is probably something in the event sanctioning that calls for PDGA rules to be enforced during the event.




texas, i would very much like to personally attack you right now, but... instead, i would like to know what this has to do with michigan. your map is out of date. bowling green is south of here and in michigan we hole out. another guy said he spent a week here and we were wetter than what he was used to. that is great, too. i would like the opportunity to spend a week with each of you so that i may become an outspoken expert.

you are both discussing the same pdga sanctioned tournament as the rest of us, right?

http://www.funfonix.com/clipart/yawn.gif
Yawn!!!!!!!!!!

If the groups in MI want to run tournaments where 804.05A(4) is ignored, then I would encourage them to not sanction their events with the Association, since there is probably something in the event sanctioning that calls for PDGA rules to be enforced during the event.




texas, i would very much like to personally attack you right now, but... instead, i would like to know what this has to do with michigan. your map is out of date. bowling green is south of here and in michigan we hole out. another guy said he spent a week here and we were wetter than what he was used to. that is great, too. i would like the opportunity to spend a week with each of you so that i may become an outspoken expert.

you are both discussing the same pdga sanctioned tournament as the rest of us, right?



Gregory,

Bill was quoting Bruce about the above statement that you took offense to. Here is what Bruce said, in case you missed it.


The last time I played a certain popular annual Michigan sanctioned tournament, the TD's helper people were smoking dope in the pavillion and a non-player was driving up and down the main road through the park offering cold beer to any players whose beer wasn't cold anymore.

The rule in Michigan is, you make sure everyone is cool, and you offer one to everyone, and there's no violation. Like that other poster, I think you're just jealous. We have overruled 804.05 in this state by civil disobedience, and you can't get that going where you play.



My commext is just this...

HOW SAD.

maybe the revised suggested guidelines for play should discourage stereotypists?

i didn't miss the post. responding with authority to a conversation you only heard part of, donny, would be as low budget as moving the disc catching device before holing out. in any case, a lot of texan golfers have rejoiced in the fact that they are free to consume brews in the park. can i then assume that texas encourages alcoholism and disapproves of the suggested pdga guidelines for play? are you all wet?

right. the answer is no and, because that is the answer, i never would. how sad, indeed.

The rules don't say "If people don't behave and get in your way, then become a buzz killing narc."

The rules say alcohol is not permitted during play, period.



Well, actually, neither.

(4) Activities which are in violation of the law or park regulation or disc golf course rule,
including the illegal consumption of drugs or alcohol.

If the park prohibits alcohol and some other player is drinking alchol, this will ruin my day because we can all get kicked out the park. If the park does not prohibit alcohol and the player quietly and respectfully drinks beer rather than gatorade so be it. As regards illegal drugs I would ask, during a sanctioned tournament round for the player to put it away. Once again, because this can effect me. If illegal drugs are used at the park we can all be asked, or worse, to go home. As regards the image of the game, I strongly believe that if we all act like adults we get treated like them. This has nothing to do with whatever is in the other guy's water bottle.

Also, I believe that Rule 801 essentially says that if you act like a distracting fool I will act like a buzz killing narc. If you play golf and we have a nice day I play golf and we have a nice day. You may ask, "where in Rule 801 is that?" I answer, "check the penumbra." :D

Michigan, by the way, passed a medical marijuana law, so now we have to ask to see his prescription for that? :D

i am trying to take a sober look at all this. if we oversimplify, there are two main camps. the "what's the big deal" camp and "there is too much pot smoking and alcohol drinking happening at PDGA events" camp.

here forward i will call the first group -- group 1; and the second group -- group 2.

group 1 is like, it's a free country dude, don't be so hung up.
group 2 is like, you partakers of hippie lettuce and booze are ruining our sport's potential professional image.

maybe we should start a P tier where pot-smoking will be disregarded and a D tier where drunkeness will not be discouraged. while you might think users would flock to those events, non-users might see if they can gain a few strokes while the pot-smokers are admiring the flight paths of their errant throws and the drinkers pound another when things go awry...

drinking and pot-smoking is so prominent in America I am not sure the disc golf course is the place to weed it out. Prohibition was tried with alcohol and the "don't use it" camp had to throw in the towel because alcohol proved to be a far bigger problem when illegal than when legal.

established professional sports players do it discreetly or not at all. it would be nice if the disc golfing users would spread the word to follow that lead. don't do it in the public eye. after all, with cell phone cameras, it would be pretty easy to make a hard-to-ignore case for the PDGA official or TD.

the war on drugs has been a dismal failure. pharmaceutical commercials are out of hand. how many of us don't associate with someone who drinks or smokes recreationally?

don't do it on the course if it is a public park and don't do it at a PDGA event. i wish everyone would adopt that approach. but i am not betting on that becoming a reality.

what i take to be Bruce's implication is right: the PDGA letter of the law is a facade that isn't being enforced and it makes the PDGA look like it doesn't take rules enforcement seriously. far better to leave drugs and alcohol in public parks as a police enforcement issue and to focus on disc golf.

From: http://www.pdga.com/files/documents/08CompetitionManual.pdf


3.3. Professional Misconduct
D. The use of alcohol is forbidden from the 2-minute warning until the player�s scorecard is submitted. Such use shall result in immediate disqualification at a B Tier or higher event. At a C or D Tier event the TD shall either disqualify the offending player or issue them a warning. If a player has been issued a warning, all subsequent violations shall result in immediate disqualification.



I'm at a loss how anyone could not 100% fully understand this rule, which is spelled out just about as explicitly as can be.

From: http://www.pdga.com/files/documents/08CompetitionManual.pdf


3.3. Professional Misconduct
D. The use of alcohol is forbidden from the 2-minute warning until the player�s scorecard is submitted. Such use shall result in immediate disqualification at a B Tier or higher event. At a C or D Tier event the TD shall either disqualify the offending player or issue them a warning. If a player has been issued a warning, all subsequent violations shall result in immediate disqualification.



I'm at a loss how anyone could not 100% fully understand this rule, which is spelled out just about as explicitly as can be.



The conflict with this and with what's in the rule book has been explained. Choosing to ignore that fact deprives you of seeing the whole picture.

Chap

Have we got a petition site up to DQ Kinkel yet? LOL.

Please note that we are no longer talking about the "grey area" of alcohol consumption after the last putt.

The discussion has moved to consumption during the entire round of sanctioned play.

Jeff,

What Chap has said is that no one brought the issue up before the tournament was officially over. If someone had, and mentioned the rule in the Comp Manual, the outcome could have changed.

Please note that we are no longer talking about the "grey area" of alcohol consumption after the last putt.

The discussion has moved to consumption during the entire round of sanctioned play.






That's not what I have been talking about at all, but thanks for noting the shift. If anyone thinks there should be a shift in current PDGA policy on that separate topic, fire away.

Chap

exczar,

As was just noted, we are no longer discussing that tournament and "grey area" of alcohol consumption after the last putt.

The discussion has moved to consumption during the entire round of sanctioned play because bruce_brakel and outtabounds have basically intimated that if people "behave," then they don't enforce the rules against alcohol consumption. My (obvious) contention is that the rules don't say "If people don't behave and get in your way, then become a buzz killing narc." The rules say that alcohol is not permitted during play, period:

From: http://www.pdga.com/files/documents/08CompetitionManual.pdf


3.3. Professional Misconduct
D. The use of alcohol is forbidden from the 2-minute warning until the player�s scorecard is submitted. Such use shall result in immediate disqualification at a B Tier or higher event. At a C or D Tier event the TD shall either disqualify the offending player or issue them a warning. If a player has been issued a warning, all subsequent violations shall result in immediate disqualification.

the rules don't say "If people don't behave and get in your way, then become a buzz killing narc." The rules say that alcohol is not permitted during play, period:

From: http://www.pdga.com/files/documents/08CompetitionManual.pdf

3.3. Professional Misconduct
D. The use of alcohol is forbidden from the 2-minute warning until the player�s scorecard is submitted. Such use shall result in immediate disqualification at a B Tier or higher event. At a C or D Tier event the TD shall either disqualify the offending player or issue them a warning. If a player has been issued a warning, all subsequent violations shall result in immediate disqualification.



If you really want to emphasize this rule at your event, ask a member of local law enforcement to attend the player's meeting and to read 3.3 as a public service anouncement ;)

it would definitely get people's attention

:D

Just on a side note, Do you guys drink beer during non-pdga tournaments? We have about 40 tournaments in Kansas (OZ Tour) this year and only 13 of them will be PDGA sanctioned. Sometimes it's nice to have a more relaxed tournament where you can kick back and enjoy some nice cold brew.

with regards to the petition, don't be silly... by now it is clear that after the portable basket was moved the tournament was declared over. i know it is confusing, but the revised guidelines for play will, no doubt, allow for this type of behavior to be considered finishing the hole. maybe we can just move portables close enough so as to avoid putting altogether, or... just on the basis that it could be done, assume we have completed the hole prior to tee off. this would further clarify things, as if i am assumed to have already holed out then the rules don't count. well, as long as someone is following me around and writing down my score before i have completed the course. anyway, i would like to contribute an additional thought, but will wait for jeff on further clarification of what we are to be discussing.

Jeff,

Oops. Gotcha. You weren't referring to anything Chap said, you were referring to the apparent selective rule enforcement in MI.

Unclemercy,

You really are perseverating on this "holing out" issue, aren't you? The rule hasn't changed, but no one there made an issue of it, as I am sure you would have if you were there.

3.3. Professional Misconduct
D. The use of alcohol is forbidden from the 2-minute warning until the player�s scorecard is submitted. Such use shall result in immediate disqualification at a B Tier or higher event. At a C or D Tier event the TD shall either disqualify the offending player or issue them a warning. If a player has been issued a warning, all subsequent violations shall result in immediate disqualification.




I'm at a loss how anyone could not 100% fully understand this rule, which is spelled out just about as explicitly as can be.



using the above rule

- YOU MAKE THE CALL!!!! -

The TD for a PDGA event has put bottles of Isoproply Alcohol on the table at tournament central. TD announces during player meeting that players are encouraged to USE the ALCOHOL to wipe their hands and discs should they come in contact with the abundant poison ivy on the course. Someone takes a video of some players clearly USING the rubbing ALCOHOL to wipe their hands and legs during the final round. The video ends up on youtube three weeks later.

PDGA members are now calling for action as the rule is very explicit and they don't understand why it is not being fully enforced.


Should the player(s) be DQ'd and stripped of awards and points?

Should the player(s) in question be suspended or fined by the PDGA for clearly using alcohol?


-YOU MAKE THE CALL -



Then please explain why.

exczar,

As was just noted, we are no longer discussing that tournament and "grey area" of alcohol consumption after the last putt.

The discussion has moved to consumption during the entire round of sanctioned play because bruce_brakel and outtabounds have basically intimated that if people "behave," then they don't enforce the rules against alcohol consumption. My (obvious) contention is that the rules don't say "If people don't behave and get in your way, then become a buzz killing narc." The rules say that alcohol is not permitted during play, period:

From: http://www.pdga.com/files/documents/08CompetitionManual.pdf


3.3. Professional Misconduct
D. The use of alcohol is forbidden from the 2-minute warning until the player�s scorecard is submitted. Such use shall result in immediate disqualification at a B Tier or higher event. At a C or D Tier event the TD shall either disqualify the offending player or issue them a warning. If a player has been issued a warning, all subsequent violations shall result in immediate disqualification.





I guess that part of the reason why I am not making a fuss so long as no law is being broken (drugs, other than perhaps prescribed medical marijuana in Michigan :p are illegal everywhere) and no distraction is being made is that I am not running things. I can't speak for Brakel. He is a TD and regularly runs things. He has more responsibility than me. Although a certified official (I am so smart that I passed an open book test) I am just a player. If another player breaks a rule of play I will call it. If a player, in a park that allows such things, brings out a beer, I will mind my own business. I have a game to play and I am trying to do well and I am not getting involved in other people's soap operas. It makes my day go better and lets face it, if I wasn't out to have some fun I would rather be at work where I am making some money or with my family where I am likely having some fun. If I was running the event I might have a less libertarian viewpoint. Odds are I would snuff it at the outset and make an announcement at the begining such as, " Well everybody. I do this because I love disc golf and its fun for me to run tournaments. If you drink or light up on the course between the two minute warning and turning in your scorecard I am going to have to disqualify you and listen to you cry and I will be in a lousy mood by the time the rest of you come to me looking for scores. So, don't #$*@ up my day by making me enforce this rule or we are all going to need a drink and you know where that will get us." In between rounds I will let them all get drunk to the gills so they all get in accidents and 999 the second round and I do not have to pay anything out. Hey, maybe I can make some money running tournaments /msgboard/images/graemlins/ooo.gif...but then again, I do not run tournaments. I just like (for the present at least) to play in them. You don't have to worry about me.

Discette,

Clearly your agenda is to make some point about the Competition Manual being written too ambiguously.

However, if we have to actually spell out in the Rules / Competition Manual that we are referring to consumption of ethyl alcohol for intoxication purposes, then we've reached a level of ridiculousness that goes beyond common sense. This is similar to the "prove that the liquid was beer, not cream soda" argument from a few weeks ago, where I questioned whether a portable gas chromatograph to test for the ethanol content in the beer being consumed was needed.

Notice I didn't even qualify it as oral consumption of ethyl alcohol for intoxication purposes, on the off chance that some very misguided souls use that loophole to use a syringe to inject alcohol into their veins intravaneously.

Could the Rules / Competition Manual be clarified in some places to remove conflicts and inconsistencies? Absolutely. But at some point, common sense has to take over or else this becomes a silly exercise in semantics. You, me, and everyone else knows that the Rules / Competition Manual is talking about drinking booze.

Unclemercy,

You really are perseverating on this "holing out" issue, aren't you? The rule hasn't changed, but no one there made an issue of it, as I am sure you would have if you were there.



it's the bigger issue. the object of the game is not to pretend to finish each hole while staying sober the longest. although, i will say, your ideas intrigue me.

I know the DGRZ's are loving this but this really isn't about someone not holing out or anything.

This, like everything else in disc golf, is about image and how terrible ours is.

Things like this only tarnish and prove the majority of people who don't like us right.

...at some point, common sense has to take over or else this becomes a silly exercise in semantics. You, me, and everyone else knows that the Rules / Competition Manual is talking about drinking booze.



We also know this rule is to prevent drinking during tournament play and I think we can all agree this event was technically over.

The point many here are making is that if you do not follow the explicit letter of the rule - you have no rule.

My example shows what happens when you want to be literal and not follow the intent or spirit of the rule. My example is much further removed from the spirit than Blaine's example, but they are both still using a literal interpretation of a rule. A rule that states USING alcohol is forbidden.



Blaine's action had nothing to do with violating the spirit of the rule. He had a celebratory sip of the sponsor's beer and was accommodating the moment while being photographed and applauded. Technically he was in violation, but was Blaine really USING alcohol in the spirit in which the rule was intended? NO!

Again, if folks want to be literal, they can. But if they do, there is no justice. In this instance, being literal is not fair to Blaine nor to the spirit of the rules.

It would have been too easy to write "consumption of alcoholic beverages" but instead it says "use of alcohol". Go figure.

I realize what the intent is, but the intent is not what is written.

I could have used that rubbing alcohol interpretation during last year's discussion of kneeling on a towel behind one's mark. :)

It is discussions like this that led to Carlton Howard resigned as rules chairman.

The rules were made to be called by players. Call them.

It's funny that people have no problems calling out pencil whippers but don't want to call out people who drink knowing they can't. Both are cheaters.

How do we know that the guy winning the BG tourney actually swallowed? ;)

I'm surprised that you still associate with us, MeTaL(that's what I say to myself every time I see a post from you; not a dig, just me) since our image is so awful.

If another player breaks a rule of play I will call it. If a player, in a park that allows such things, brings out a beer, I will mind my own business.



outtabounds,

I know that alcohol use may be perfectly legit in the park your PDGA-sanctioned tournaments occur at. I'm sure that was debated and well understood when the PDGA Rules Committee voted and formally adopted the rule - that alcohol use may be permitted in some, or even a majority of venues.

I know no one wants to be the bad guy, but the rule is there for a reason and intuitively, it makes zero sense to me to call a player on any other rule infraction while you're completely ignoring a major rule violation - the drinking of alcohol during PDGA-sanctioned play.

How do we know that the guy winning the BG tourney actually swallowed? ;)

I'm surprised that you still associate with us, MeTaL(that's what I say to myself every time I see a post from you; not a dig, just me) since our image is so awful.



There are so many good things about this sport that I love. I can't begin to say what I high I get when I watch a disc fly perfectly to the pin knowing that I had everything to do with it - its just something I find really cool.

I'm addicted to our sport - just started year number 16 playing (not bad for a 25 year old) - and I'm amazed how much we've come just in that time.

I'm confident that the things I know are wrong with the sport are what is holding us back from going beyond the current level.

We need more people and more numbers. Numbers leads to sponsorship. Our image is costing us numbers. It really is that simple.

Another way of "seeing things" (somewhat akin to Robert's) is that people inherently succeed to the extent of their belief.

Scenario 1:
If we (the PDGA collectively) TRY to be "perfect" (in all our actions, thoughts, etc.) we, of course, will fail (as some things will 'fall by the wayside') but the majority will succeed!

Scenario 2:
Conversely, if we try to "just be OK", we will get our "OK" but also have some things 'fall by the wayside'.

The outcome of scenario # 1 will be MUCH better than scenario # 2 (when it comes to our growth, non-dg'er's perception of us, etc.).

In summary, try for 100%, get 80%; try for 80%, get 50%.

Karl

so without having to read all these threads what did the PDGA do if anything at all? just curious

so without having to read all these threads what did the PDGA do if anything at all? just curious




Collected sanctioning and player fees.

Discette,

Clearly your agenda is to make some point about the Competition Manual being written too ambiguously.

However, if we have to actually spell out in the Rules / Competition Manual that we are referring to consumption of ethyl alcohol for intoxication purposes, then we've reached a level of ridiculousness that goes beyond common sense. This is similar to the "prove that the liquid was beer, not cream soda" argument from a few weeks ago, where I questioned whether a portable gas chromatograph to test for the ethanol content in the beer being consumed was needed.

Notice I didn't even qualify it as oral consumption of ethyl alcohol for intoxication purposes, on the off chance that some very misguided souls use that loophole to use a syringe to inject alcohol into their veins intravaneously.

Could the Rules / Competition Manual be clarified in some places to remove conflicts and inconsistencies? Absolutely. But at some point, common sense has to take over or else this becomes a silly exercise in semantics. You, me, and everyone else knows that the Rules / Competition Manual is talking about drinking booze.



Common sense should rule where the Comp Manual is deficient. Yes, Jeff, thanks for helping me make my point.

You may now go back to your previously scheduled program.

so without having to read all these threads what did the PDGA do if anything at all? just curious



Less cynically.....nothing.

Nothing was called at the time. Tournament is over.

I don't believe anything's been posted here indicating anyone filed a complaint for the PDGA to investigate.

We've just been kicking around a lot of carefully edited versions of what we think we know, and a lot of imperfect analogies, amongst ourselves.

Were a complaint filed, my guess is the PDGA would consider it much ado about nothing, which would be just fine with some of us.

I know the DGRZ's are loving this but this really isn't about someone not holing out or anything.

This, like everything else in disc golf, is about image and how terrible ours is.

Things like this only tarnish and prove the majority of people who don't like us right.



Well, what is this "this" I'm supposed to be lovin', and is tarnishing what? The guy taking a sip of beer after his round is over, or the argument about whether or not anything should have been done?

Frankly, had the TD ruled one way or another on it, I doubt that the TD's decision would have been overturned on appeal because of the unique situation of the infraction.

How do we know that the guy winning the BG tourney actually swallowed? ;)





It is discussions like this that led to Carlton Howard resigned as rules chairman.




And if he hadn't already resigned, I'm sure this discussion would have put him over the edge. :(

I know you were joking Kenny, but some of the semantics games similar to this that were played in this thread were just plain ridiculous. While I suspect that some of that might have been playing devil's advocate, or perhaps to serve as an impetus to get conflicts &amp; poorly written sections in the Rules / Competition Manual re-written, or for some other unforseen agenda, (or perhaps just to be belligerent) it ended up coming off like a cop-out.

It's even more troubling that moving beyond the issue of that end-of-tournament scenario, it's being admitted that use of alcohol during PDGA-sanctioned tournament play is regularly tolerated in some parts of the country. :(

It is discussions like this that led to Carlton Howard resigned as rules chairman.

The rules were made to be called by players. Call them.

It's funny that people have no problems calling out pencil whippers but don't want to call out people who drink knowing they can't. Both are cheaters.



Oh man,

I hope I haven't been involved in any discussions you mentioned that might have led to Carlton's resignation as RC chair. His absense in that position is a loss to us as well as to the sport.

I _hope_ you are talking about conversations where some are trying to defend actions that are defined as violations in the Rules. Is that what you meant?

so without having to read all these threads what did the PDGA do if anything at all? just curious



Less cynically.....nothing.

Nothing was called at the time. Tournament is over.

I don't believe anything's been posted here indicating anyone filed a complaint for the PDGA to investigate.

We've just been kicking around a lot of carefully edited versions of what we think we know, and a lot of imperfect analogies, amongst ourselves.

Were a complaint filed, my guess is the PDGA would consider it much ado about nothing, which would be just fine with some of us.



Very well stated. Thank you.

are you having trouble following along, bill?

so without having to read all these threads what did the PDGA do if anything at all? just curious



Give it time to see what happens.

outtabounds,

I know that alcohol use may be perfectly legit in the park your PDGA-sanctioned tournaments occur at. I'm sure that was debated and well understood when the PDGA Rules Committee voted and formally adopted the rule - that alcohol use may be permitted in some, or even a majority of venues.

I know no one wants to be the bad guy, but the rule is there for a reason and intuitively, it makes zero sense to me to call a player on any other rule infraction while you're completely ignoring a major rule violation - the drinking of alcohol during PDGA-sanctioned play.

Jeff, the irony is that alcohol IS prohibited at most of the parks where I play. As such, I WILL call a player for using acohol. However, if I am playing at one of those other parks, or a park in Michigan, I suspect my libertarian nature will take over. I take issue with Robert's comment that these violators are "cheaters." Cheaters break the rules for competitive advantage. I will be just as militant as you or Robert on infractions of the rules of play. It is unfair to me, to the guilty party and to anybody else in our division, to allow this. However, a quiet, humble drinker is not a cheater. He may be a fool (or worse). However, he is not getting a competitive advantage over anybody and is not making anybody else's game go south. Since I have my own game to worrry about I am not going to pay him or her much mind.

Bruce Brakel said:

I've seen 804.05 and its cousin in the secret rule book violated at virtually every non-major tournament I've played where I was not the TD's sidekick. I've seen the rule violated at half the tournaments where I AM the TD's sidekick, but you know what? I'm treating this rule just like the PDGA is treating it right now: if no one is calling it in the group, I'm not calling it from downwind or the next fairway over, even if it is on video on my website! I say to all TDs out there who don't like enforcing the PDGA's prohibition rules, take a cue from the PDGA. If the violation is right in front of you and no one is complaining, there really isn't a violation.

This is why you shouldn't be allowed to sanction events. You openly disavow enforcing the rules, and justify it by saying "hey if that guy doesn't, I won't either". It has nothing to do with MI, and everything to do with you. That attitude is simply AWFUL. There's a difference between someone who turns their head and says "I see nothing", and a TD who signs an agreement to enforce the rules turning their head and seeing nothing.

chainmeister,

Intuitively, I agree 100% with your definition that "cheaters" break rules to gain a competitive advantage. I'm not sure that I agree with Robert's assertion that those who break rules (period) are "cheaters." We have a rule against littering. Do those who break this rule gain any competitive advantage?!?

However, no matter whether alcohol is allowed in the park or not, the use of alcohol during a PDGA-sanctioned event is forbidden by our rules. And intuitively, it makes zero sense to me to call a player on any other rule infraction while I'm completely ignoring that major (DQ-able offense) rule violation.

David,

Your...
"However, he is not getting a competitive advantage over anybody"
...is not necessarily correct.

I know a golfer who, with no beers basically sucks (he's just a wicked nervous person); with a couple of beers, he's not too bad at all (just loosens up enough); and with 6 or so, begins "sucking" again (can you say 'inebriation').

So while a rarity, alcohol COULD be a help.

Karl

David,

Your...
"However, he is not getting a competitive advantage over anybody"
...is not necessarily correct.

I know a golfer who, with no beers basically sucks (he's just a wicked nervous person); with a couple of beers, he's not too bad at all (just loosens up enough); and with 6 or so, begins "sucking" again (can you say 'inebriation').

So while a rarity, alcohol COULD be a help.

Karl

I know a well-known disc golfer who refers to booze as "puttin' juice", so yes the right quantity can be an advantage.

The NBA, NFL and other orgs make a lot of calls after games are over. They fine players for late hits that aren't called in games, etc. The PDGA could also do this.

And in addition, there have been more than 1 instance of TV viewers calling in (to the PGA) to "point out" an infraction...and the PGA subsequently assessing fines / DQs, etc.

In this age of "video", we (the PDGA) may just have to learn to "work with it" (read: accept the 'consequences' of rogue pics) instead of not paying attention to it. It won't be easy, it may (to some) not be "right", but I think it's here to stay....

Karl

Karl,

I thought the same thing when I read that. If someone is used to having a beer buzz when they play, then not having the beer to drink could have a negative effect on their game, which means it gives them a competitive advantage to have the brewski.

re: change to tournament standings. The fines/suspensions levied on the players had no effect on the game played, and those times when someone on TV saw an infraction in a PGA event, the event was not yet concluded for those times when something came of it.

Bill,

Can you say that ALL the cases presented (by myself and Pterodactyl) combined with ALL others (not presented here but pertinent nonetheless) ARE the case that you say?

You must either be 1) omniscient, or 2) a mind-reader, PGA / other sports official and watch a LOT of television (to actually see ALL situations involving this)!
I'm guessing neither; so while you believe what you believe, I'm betting that your statement couldn't be substantiated - just "guessed at" by yourself and your experience.

In principle I agree with your stance, but I'd have worded it a bit differently (so as not to come across as "EVERY case") - maybe just "a lot of cases".

Karl

David,

Your...
"However, he is not getting a competitive advantage over anybody"
...is not necessarily correct.

I know a golfer who, with no beers basically sucks (he's just a wicked nervous person); with a couple of beers, he's not too bad at all (just loosens up enough); and with 6 or so, begins "sucking" again (can you say 'inebriation').

So while a rarity, alcohol COULD be a help.

Karl

The exception that proves the rule?

(I'm not sure, because I never quite understood that expression).

Jeff

Congrats. I think you convinced me. If a player is DQ'd for breaking a rule, regardless of whether its about rule of play or not, his absence will effect the rest of the field. If he is a good player another player will move up. If he is a lousy player there will be a couple less points for the leaders. So, I guess there is a competitive reason why that DQ will have an effect on everybody in the division. I really have no desire to bust somebody who is otherwise no trouble. However, my failure to make the call may hurt the guy who would have otherwise won the division. I will go this far. I will warn them to put it away and call it the next time... At least I am thinking about it. Cheers.

David,

Your...
"However, he is not getting a competitive advantage over anybody"
...is not necessarily correct.

I know a golfer who, with no beers basically sucks (he's just a wicked nervous person); with a couple of beers, he's not too bad at all (just loosens up enough); and with 6 or so, begins "sucking" again (can you say 'inebriation').

So while a rarity, alcohol COULD be a help.

Karl

We've all played with that guy. It does appear that he is better when drunk. Its still a competitive disadvantage unless he literally gets the shakes when he doesn't drink. The guy I am thinking about is legendary in our area and is a dynamite player. I still think he would be way better if... Now, the beta blockers that I take certainly could give me an advantage as they slow the heart rate. Less nervous putting. They are legal and prescribed. I am going to continue to take them.
:-)

[QUOTE=Zbrock;1375878]...that is what leaves a bad taste in peoples mouth's.QUOTE]

nah, that's the stale beer

David and John,

While both of you appear to be taking a somewhat pragmatic view on this specific topic (and one in which I probably agree with you on), the bigger issue here is that of "where do you draw the line" (when "interpreting" a rule / law / practice / et al)?
Robert seems to be taking the stance of "...the PDGA governing body HAS drawn the line (by writing the rule the way it did) and thus THAT is the line! It was crossed. Therefore....
And I also agree with this stance, because a sport without rules (or rules which are followed whenever / however we want to) is not much of a sport.

There are two issues being discussed here. 1) The BG incident. 2) Is this "rule" written properly (does the punishment fit the crime). 2) is the more important one, but 1) is a perfect example of 2)'s either "goodness" or "not-so-goodness"...and thus is connected (in a poster child sort of way).

If you take the stance of "...well, it was just a little alcohol (or just a little over the speed limit), etc..." I have to ask 'where is the line drawn?'

I. If we have NO rules, anarchy reigns supreme. NG.
II. If WE individually decide where the 'line is drawn' for each case, WE have no collective sport's body (we're all playing a similar game but with different rules). NG also.
III. If we have a set of rules (which are imperfect) that we MUST follow (until changed...for the better), then we have a "sport". G.

Karl

IV. Every rule has an element of interpretation to it. Rules are very important, but there is also a place for reasonable discretion when the outcome is not affected by it, such as speed of play concepts, etc. My experience in 30 years of playing this game is that the rules are an important guide, but it takes on the spot common sense sometimes to work out the inevitable gray areas.

Anyone that is calling for Kinkel to be DQ'd cannot possibly argue that his small sip of beer (which someone he did not know put in his hands, he did not plan it) in any way affected the outcome. He won by what, 6 strokes? It's not just about "rules" - what about sportsmanship? Those people were unable to beat him in a fair match, so they resort to hiding behind the rules to take it away from him. How is that in the spirit of the game? Is that the "sport" you want to play?

they resort to hiding behind the rules
.............

There is a difference between the spirit of the law/rule, and the letter of the law/rule. I was referring to those that ignore the spirit of the rules, which most people understand is for the benefit the game, and choose to apply the letter of the rules in situations where it does not affect the outcome of the match, as in Kinkel's case.

Either way, I bet he does not take an offered beer from a well-wisher again, as it was not an intentional attempt to violate the drinking rules in the first place.

I like beer.

I like beer.

Well, that was helpful. Thanks for joining in the conversation.

I like beer.
So do I, his response has everything to do about this month long discussion. Bill, have a beer yourself, worry about what you do on the course and not everyone else, and then maybe the beveled edged disc wouldn't be so hard to figure out.

So do I, his response has everything to do about this month long discussion. Bill, have a beer yourself, worry about what you do on the course and not everyone else, and then maybe the beveled edged disc wouldn't be so hard to figure out.

I like beer too. A lot. In fact, I'm willing to bet most all of us do.

But Sweeper's comment had ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with this month long discussion. It had nothing to do with Merkaba311's original post in this thread which asked when the 'no drinking' rule during PDGA sanctioned events comes into effect. It had nothing to do with a competitor drinking beer before he holed out and before his scorecard was turned in at a PDGA sanctioned event. It had nothing to do with not enforcing rules against alcohol consumption during PDGA sanctioned events in parks which otherwise allow alcohol consumption. These were all topics discussed in this thread.

Sweeper's comment had ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with any of this. I really laughed when I saw Bill's comment because I felt exactly the same way. I was actually impressed that Bill's response wasn't any snarkier, because reviving the thread after two weeks with a nonsense statement like "I like beer." certainly deserved it. :D

I don't like beer. :)

Dont shot me IMO no one should be drinking before the event or in between rounds. Be it at a public park or private land. Rule should be changed to no cusumption of Alcohol or drugs before an event. This isn't good for our image. Have I seen it in a sactioned event yes, did I say something to the person YES. There is a time and place and that should be for after the tourney at the players party. Drinking leads to missed scores arguments ETC........ Like I said JMO

..... Rule should be changed to no cusumption of Alcohol or drugs before an event. This isn't good for our image. ....

So who will be called on to enforce this before events? Parking lot police? How long before events should such actions be monitored? Most players won't even make a simple foot fault call, getting into some confrontation with another player drinking etc. before play seems very unlikely.

Not condoning, just saying.......

I don't like beer. :)

Neither does this guy (http://www.pdga.com/discussion/showpost.php?p=1376850&postcount=2668), he must be putting those bottles out with the cat.

the only issue I personally would have with some of the comments about not enforcing certain "rules" , even by TD's, is that it makes me wonder what other "rules" that TD or area of the country are choosing to ignore as well?
not trying to stir the pot or anything, but it does make me wonder.
interesting discussion though.

Not to contradict the esteemed Chappy, but I only know of a few parks in MO/KS where alcohol is OK, without a specific permit. Fortunately, 2 of them are WYCO and Rosedale!

the only issue I personally would have with some of the comments about not enforcing certain "rules" , even by TD's, is that it makes me wonder what other "rules" that TD or area of the country are choosing to ignore as well?


if by rules you mean suggested guidelines for play and by ignore you mean total disregard, then holing out, or failure to, would be a great example.

And it's not just the TD's. How about a tournament sponsor who is also a player in the event, and gets mad about being called on a rules violation? I've seen bad attitudes at the scoring table because of an event sponsor forgetting to total his card and tell the scorekeepers he's not taking a penaly for something so minor because, "If he (the TD) wants ME to help next time, he better just forget about this minor infraction."

I believe a lot of the problem is some people's high opinion of themselves that prevents them from abiding by the most basic rules, and refusing to take responsibility of their actions.

1. Is chemotherapy a performance enhancer? (just want to know so I don't get DQ'd by MTL at any events)

2. Blaine, as much as you are my buddy, you absolutely need to be disqualified. Not because of any rules infractions, but for drinking that nasty Woodchuck Cider! End of story!

Next time I see you I will have some Tasgal for you.

re: Chemo - I will take that comment as a dig on MTL, and not a serious comment. If you were serious, please PM me.

No dig, legitimate question. Just finished my last session a month ago.

Nothing illegal about chemo - the Rules just address illegal drugs and alcohol.

i am willing to bet that you will all be made to hole out at am nats. the best part about it all is that bill burns will not be there. lighten up, bill. it's just the suggested guidelines for play we are talking about here.