in Section 3.4 of the 2008 Competition Manual, it states, in part, for NT and Major Events, that, "All players in PDGA sanctioned competition and tournament staff are expected to dress appropriately and to maintain a clean and well-groomed appearance..."

I was at one such event several years ago, and I saw a competitor with pink hair, and I wondered if it conformed to the above specification.

Have you seen any competitors at such events who appeared to be stretching the limit of "clean and well groomed"? Is pink hair OK?

It doesn't say mandatory for your attire...does it? Just an expectation...

And as far as maintaining a clean and well groomed appearance...well I think that can mean a myriad of different things to a myriad of different people...so IMO, pink hair is a go...

i would think hair color/style and tattoos, piercings etc would lie outside the realm of things the org could hope to control. i certainly hope they are.

imo "clean and well groomed" is a bs generality too non-specific to hold water.

"All players in PDGA sanctioned competition and tournament staff are expected to dress appropriately and to maintain a clean and well-groomed appearance..."



Disqualification is in order for more than half the field at the West Virginia Open.... :D

Last time I saw, the West Virgina Open is neither a NT or M. This ONLY applies to those events. ; )

I was at one such event several years ago, and I saw a competitor with pink hair, and I wondered if it conformed to the above specification.



Did the competitor have greasy pink hair, a tattered pot leaf t-shirt, and cut-offs?

I'm having a hard time figuring out how you equate pink hair with a disheveled appearance. Every time I've seen Scott Papa at an NT or Major he's been wearing a clean polo shirt, nice shorts, and a big smile. :D

Do you consider long hair to be non-conforming with that standard, too? Do you judge long-hair differently if it's a man or a woman?

You certainly control whether or not you have your hair dyed a wild color, and most piercings can be removed.

Since the document goes on to give examples of what is and is not appropriate dress, why can't the document give examples of what is and is not "clean and well groomed". Is having 2 days of stubble considered well groomed?

Again, this is just like the rules of play. We should be self-policing in order to shed the best light on the sport, but many of us are more concerned with having a good time or doing what they can to win during an event than projecting an image and a sportsmanship that is beneficial to the sport.

OK, 2 days of stubble is certainly debatable, hair color and body piercings are certainly none of our business.

Since the document goes on to give examples of what is and is not appropriate dress, why can't the document give examples of what is and is not "clean and well groomed".



Because it was written in the rule before it was discovered that it is too subjective to accurately describe. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Again, this is just like the rules of play. We should be self-policing in order to shed the best light on the sport, but many of us are more concerned with having a good time or doing what they can to win during an event than projecting an image and a sportsmanship that is beneficial to the sport.



i don't buy it...the game/sport would be more popular and more likely to make it on tv if all the top players wore foot-high neon yellow mohawks and were tattooed to the max. we're playing frisbee for god's sake. attempting to appeal to the ball golf crowd is mis-channeled effort.

As long as the guys on my card have bathed, I'm good to go.

The problem is less about T.V. or sponsorship IMO, than it is about public perception. When we're in a public park playing amongst the citizens, how are they dressed? What do they think? If we all played on private courses then what we want is what we want. But since we essentially play at the whim of the public park management's largess, we should look like we want to be there and present ourselves in a fashion that the public would like to see.

Rhett,

I did not refer to the player's clothes, or the length or condition of the player's hair, just the unnatural color of pink. I don't know who the guy was, and I didn't say anything. I know you have long hair, and long hair can be styled in many different ways, so as long as it doesn't looked matted and gross, it could be considered groomed. So please don't cut your hair for my sake :) You can look like Cousin Itt for all I care. I always thought that Itt looked well groomed.

Skinner, the doc does say that the dress code will be enforced, so it's more than just an expectation.

All,

I play in very few tournaments, and the last NT I played in, 2 years ago, I ticked somebody off because I mentioned to him that he putted out of turn when he putted a drop-in as I was starting to get set for my putt.

I know the rules, and I follow the rules, or at least try to. I also want to have a good time with my competitors when I play. I would just like to know what the climate is in big tournaments regarding which rules are followed loosely or not followed at all, so when I see a certain violation and bring it up, people won't get all "teed" off at me, like I should know better than to get on somebody about _that_ rule. I want to know which ones not to mention at all, and which ones I should mention only if there is an egregious violation.

I want to go to the Worlds this year (I Have to wait until May 26 to register), and I don't want to be any more of a "persona non gratia" than I already am.

I don't want to be any more of a "persona non gratia" than I already am.



Bill,
Is it possible for you to be less. ;)

Just kidding.

I think there is a "middle ground" between what bill is talking about, and what some of our expectations about our sport are at.
the question to me would then be, do we need to change rules like this to accommodate and meet what i would perceive as a majority of players who wouldn't think twice about pink hair or any color in any shape or form, and the other end of the spectrum?

I would have to agree that we can't compare our sport to things like ball golf or even snowboarding,as I have heard many times.

IMO we need to adapt to as many people as we can,but we'll never make everyone happy, and still somehow just be ourselves and have fun.
that may be a tough mission.
but if it comes from our hearts, and not from our heads, whatever it may be, it will work out .

Last time I saw, the West Virgina Open is neither a NT or M. This ONLY applies to those events. ; )



So much for the WVO becoming either a NT or M. :)

I think this is such an under used standard in the PDGA.
I think every single person playing at an A tier, NT, or Major should be wearing a nice collared shirt and some type of appropriate shorts or pants. No mesh shorts! No crazy T shirts!
Watching the Masters for ball golf recently just reemphasized the professionalism those guys show during the tournament. Everyone of those guys looked top-notch.
just my opinion...

I did not refer to the player's clothes, or the length or condition of the player's hair, just the unnatural color of pink. I don't know who the guy was, and I didn't say anything. I know you have long hair, and long hair can be styled in many different ways, so as long as it doesn't looked matted and gross, it could be considered groomed. .



Bill

I just don't get it. Pink is unnatural. If somebody bleaches their hair, its also unnatural. If somebody in my division uses Grecian Formula, that, too is unnatural. My daughter, who bless her is now an adult, had pepto bismal pink hair in her 8th grade picture. Taht photo is still in the school where every class picture stands. Her hair was clean, appropriate and a putrid shad of pink. So be it. That was her choice and her vision of clean. The same goes here.

Last year I saw Nikko Locastro at Worlds. He had long dredlocks. Is that unnatural? He plays wicked good golf. If you think Nikko's hair is unnatural, you should have seen his caddie. That guy had dreds that were hanging to the guy's thighs. Bodacious dreds. They were wearing collared shirts, were clean, and the dreds (which can get kind of gnarly) seemed well tended. I don't think anybody for a second had a thought that there was a rules violation.

The problem is that we absulutely cannot enforce a subjective version of what is clean and neat. Lots of garb passes muster that I would find tacky or would never wear. That does not mean its unacceptable. I agree with a minimum objective standard- no cut offs, no offensive speech, etc. Beyond that I would not accept any restrictions on how a person looks. I also do not think one's shaving habits have anything to do with "clean and well groomed" in this context. I do not think a player who thinks he is not going to shave as long as he keeps making putts would violate this rule, nor would a player who just doesn't feel like shaving.

it all comes down to what image we want portrayed in the sport. if the hippie look is what the viewing public is seeing, then they'll make assumtions based upon that.
We all want so desparately to grow the sport and make it televised and considered a legitamate sport. but itll never happen unless we first make it professional looking!
IMAGE IS EVERYTHING!!!!

Outtabounds,

I'm sorry that you focused on "unnatural". That was an adjective I used that is not in the document, but I am getting a sense of the general question I asked.

So, going forward, I will not pay attention to the cleanliness or grooming of any of my competitors, unless it is something that I cannot ignore and is affecting my game.

All,

So, it is pretty much a consensus that, as a competitor, we are not to be concerned with our own personal cleanliness or grooming, as long as we don't reek with body odor, or are wearing clothes that are heavily soiled? Is this a fair statement?

I would really know about the consensus on some Rules of Play as well:

1) If there are 2 or more remaining putts, and they are all within, say, 3m/10 ft, do you not enforce Rule 801.02C, where the away player throws first, unless said player consents to another player going first?

2) Foot faults on tee shots - what difference does a couple of inches make on a hole 200 ft or longer? Have you been in a major tournament where a foot fault was called? If so, was anyone else watching in order to second the call, and if not, did those not watching get a warning?

3) Foot faults on approaches - we are usually scattered about after the drive anyway, so would it be unsportsmanlike to go to where each player took their approach shots from, and could you demand, on the threat of a courtesy violation, that the others in the group watch as well, because what good would it do you to watch alone, since no one else could second the violation call (excluding the thrower, of course).

4) Keeping score - If a player does not keep score by the method _as specified in the Rules of Play_, do you say anything? Even if you have a concern as to the accuracy of what another player reported for their score on the just completed hole, do you say anything then?


After the first few rounds at the WDGC, I will get a sense of what the level of rule enforcement/compliance is, but I don't want to tick anybody off during those first rounds by appearing to be too much of an anal-retentive stickler for the rules (which is different that being a Rules Zealot, which I will always be, even at the risk of alienation).

Please, y'all, speak up, share what you know. I won't hold it against you, and I don't think there would be any consequences against what you say being held against you.

Thanks for reading.

i think we should have a big list of all players. when someone attends a big event and is dressed properly they should get a gold star next to their name. when they show up and reek, they should get a mr. yuck symbol.

who get's to sniff the arm pits?

I think the concept of "clean and well groomed" have nothing to do with content and everything to do with condition.

If your hair is clean and styled, then it meets the requirements stated in the rules. It may be three colors and arranged in a spiked mohawk, but it is clean and groomed. If it is somehow arranged into a vulgar form that would be different, but it is hard to imagine how that would be achieved.

If one has to sniff the arm pits to determine cleanliness, it is too close to call. If one need only stand down wind to notice, then it is worthy of a warning.

Clothing is pretty much the same, everything should be clean, in good repair, and void of vulgar or offensive images or wording.

OK, OK, let's get off of the clean and well groomed. Anybody have any advice for me regarding which rules of play have atrophied due to nonuse?

Plan to follow all the rules and expect the same of all your cardmates. You know exactly what to do if they don't. Pretty simple really.

Bill,

Since you are known to be a stickler for the rules, I am sure all your indiscretions will be noted and discussed at length here. I think it would be in your best interest to plan on following all the rules. It is still up to you to decide how vigorously you pursue justice when it comes to the transgressions of your card mates.

Ask Rhett, the only easy answer to that question is to surrender. Unfortunately, that is not an answer I can live with.

Watching the Masters for ball golf recently just reemphasized the professionalism those guys show during the tournament. Everyone of those guys looked top-notch.
just my opinion...





Then you have John Daly across the street at the Masters (http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,25320600-2865,00.html) , with his entourage and motor home hawking his wares. No comment was made as to his clothing or cleanliness.

If one has to sniff the arm pits to determine cleanliness, it is too close to call.



Best quote thus far on this thread. :D

No comment was made to John Daly's clothing or cleanliness because he was not part of the event - he's been suspended for six months by the PGA Tour, and now hawks merchandise in parking lots across the street from PGA tour events. Several incidents such as smashing a spectator's camera, teeing the ball up on a beer can during a Pro/Am event, and a well-publicized interview (now on Youtube) where he's playing shirtless and shoeless and with a cigarette in his mouth, resulted in his suspension. When you're a former British Open and PGA Champion, it cannot be argued that he's put himself in an undignified position and permanently harmed his reputation.

Clean and well groomed appearance, indeed.

Hi Bill,

You wrote:
I would really know about the consensus on some Rules of Play as well:
<font color="blue">There can be NO consensus with regard to the sport, unless you have officials with each group. Rule enforcement is idiosyncratic and purely a function of the foursome, their knowledge of the rules, and how they choose to pursue/ignore them.</font>

1) If there are 2 or more remaining putts, and they are all within, say, 3m/10 ft, do you not enforce Rule 801.02C, where the away player throws first, unless said player consents to another player going first?
<font color="blue">It is my personal experience that members of the group ask to clear out, per the rule. This is usually followed by most members of the group saying sure, and that they are all for speed of play. It is the rare case when someone says no. But most players I interact with are conscientious. </font>

2) Foot faults on tee shots - what difference does a couple of inches make on a hole 200 ft or longer? Have you been in a major tournament where a foot fault was called? If so, was anyone else watching in order to second the call, and if not, did those not watching get a warning?
<font color="blue">If obvious, I have seen this called. When overlooked, it is usually in the first round and it is clear the guy making the error is not a threat, and therefore no one really pursues it. Not what we SHOULD do, by rule, but why beat up on a weak player? If it is chronic, the group usually brings it up and instructs the guy on what he is doing wrong. But it is presented more as a way to improve, not as an infraction. The tone is very different if it appears to be intentional, and the rule would be enforced. But I've never seen that.</font>

3) Foot faults on approaches - we are usually scattered about after the drive anyway, so would it be unsportsmanlike to go to where each player took their approach shots from, and could you demand, on the threat of a courtesy violation, that the others in the group watch as well, because what good would it do you to watch alone, since no one else could second the violation call (excluding the thrower, of course).
<font color="blue">I was called on this in Worlds a few years ago, and I was still a new player. I didn't think it was that big a deal, and I certainly did not intend to plant 10 cm to the right of the disc after the run-up to the shot. But two players in my group mentioned it, and I was careful the rest of the time (and to this day). It was helpful and instructive, and a lesson I needed to learn. Never been called on that again.</font>

4) Keeping score - If a player does not keep score by the method _as specified in the Rules of Play_, do you say anything? Even if you have a concern as to the accuracy of what another player reported for their score on the just completed hole, do you say anything then?
<font color="blue"> Rules for keeping score needs to be followed. I had one member in my group at my 2nd worlds get mad when he did not call out scores, so I looked over his shoulder. He confronted me, accused me of thinking he was cheating. I calmly said no, just wanting to make sure everything was recorded as people said. A hole or two later he messed up the scores, and I caught it. Maybe he was off due to my watching him, I'll never know. But a third player in our group was glad I caught the mistake. This is issue has received more attention lately, and I think most players are being very clear about scoring.</font>

Steve.

Thank you for giving me some specific comments regarding what I has asked. They are much appreciated.

Discette,

Thank you for your comments as well. If I read it right, you are saying to do the right thing, and do not be afraid to be an example. Thank you.


Gary,

Stickler, indeed. I say it again, to everyone, the Rules of Play cannot defend themselves, it is up to each one of us to defend the Rules. If my cardmates disagree with me in my interpretation and application of a certain rule, that's fine, and that is what provisionals are for.

Re: indiscretions - if an indiscretion is saying something to someone who putts out a drop-in while I am bending down, marking my away lie, which is also a fairly short putt, then I may be committing several indiscretions in KC.

If it appears that I am doing so in order to play head games with my competitors, then I deserve to be called out for it. But if I know my motives are strictly to present a defense for the defenseless, I can live with that.

The Rules of Play are continually subjected to varied interpretations, and as long as my interpretation is valid, I will stand by it, unless someone presents a more convincing argument for another interpretation.

http://search.tvnz.co.nz/photogallery/images/gallery/news/saddam_captured_301206.jpg

If you look like this, you may not be clean, or well groomed.

I think you missed the intended tone of my post. With a username of a rules zealot I would expect the term stickler to be taken in a positive light. I am known as a rules stickler and am non-apologetic for it. My reputation has preceded me to several out of state tournaments (or so I've been told by people that were asked how strict I was).

The fact I am a Marshal, State Coordinator, and Rules Stickler means that any rule I fail to follow will likely be noted and brought up here later. I was warning you of what to expect if you announce your stand here and fail to follow all of the rules.

Some people are feel they are at a disadvantage when following the rules, I don't.

Gary,

Thanks for clearing up my misunderstanding of your meaning of stickler. I guess that word is much less harsh than zealot, huh?

BTW, you need to add Certified Official to your title list.

Hypothetical.....why is it that so many players are chastised or made fun of for wanting to follow the rules. I have, like many other people, not called someone for an infraction, but usually just mention it to them casually so that they know they did something wrong, and hopefully will fix the problem themselves. What I don't understand is why that makes me the "expletive" for bringing it up? Yes I am a certified official, and yes I do love disc golf, and especially when it is played by the rules.

Unfortunately, being a certified official does not say much about how enthusiastic a player is about knowing and following the rules.

Until the general mindset changes you are either comfortable being known as a stickler for the rules, or you let less talented players bend the rules to be competitive. :eek:


Hypothetical.....why is it that so many players are chastised or made fun of for wanting to follow the rules. I have, like many other people, not called someone for an infraction, but usually just mention it to them casually so that they know they did something wrong, and hopefully will fix the problem themselves. What I don't understand is why that makes me the "expletive" for bringing it up? Yes I am a certified official, and yes I do love disc golf, and especially when it is played by the rules.

http://search.tvnz.co.nz/photogallery/images/gallery/news/saddam_captured_301206.jpg

If you look like this, you may not be clean, or well groomed.



Yeah, but it looks like he was already DQ'd, maybe worse.

OR

It could be the new PDGA drug testing policy