Here's another one...

(Note; I play with a bunch of casuals in a casual league of our own making and they are getting better at DG. They have always played without regards to OB's and Mando's. Before one of you jump on that statement, there was never a problem playing this way, they just didn't want to get stroked by throwing OB or missing a mando. Now they are getting better and have reconsidered the OB's and Mando's we encounter on our local courses and want to start playing like big boys. Almost half of these casuals also employ a falling putt technique within 10 meters of the basket. I have told them that they should play within ALL PDGA rules so that when they do step up to a PDGA event that they are familiar with all rules/violations that they will come across or be called on...and therein likes the following question.)

What is the best way to describe how to not step past their lie while putting within 10 meters?

I know the rules say 'maintain balance'. But some of them say, "I didn't fall down while putting so I maintained balance." I know that they first get a warning for this violation and on subsequent violations in the same round they will get incur a penalty stroke.

Also, if they do make their falling putt (and let's say this is the second time they have fell through their putt and they were warned the first time), they have to putt again (incurring a penalty stroke)?

Correct?

The penalty is not limited to a made putt. The easiest way for players to break the habit of a falling putt is to always pick up the mini before proceeding to the basket.

You must demonstrate that the momentum of the throw does not carry you closer to the hole than the back of the marker. Basically a break in motion betwen the throw and the advancement to the basket. I have heard some say the disc being at rest makes a difference, it does not.

Also, if they do make their falling putt (and let's say this is the second time they have fell through their putt and they were warned the first time), they have to putt again (incurring a penalty stroke)?

Correct?



Any stance violation is a warning and re-throw on the first offense. Stroke and re-throw on the second. 803.04G

In other words - it doesn't matter if they make it or not. On the first occasion - they get a warning and must re-throw. On the second, they get a stroke and must re-throw.

This might be hard to explain, but I'll try.

I throw my drive and proceed to the disc where I am about 25' out. I mark my lie with my mini.

Then, I put the front edge of my shoe about 20cm behind my mini, directly on the line from the mini to the basket.

Is it okay for me to do like a "mini jump putt" where I slide my foot along the ground, on the line from the basket to the mini?

In this scenario, my foot only travels ~15cm and is still behind the mini by about 5cm.

I also maintained my balance, did not fall past the lie with any supporting point to maintain balance.

Would a putt like that be considered an illegal putt? I guess I would be in the air for a split second, I guess you can't really balance in the air...

No problem assuming your foot is on the ground at the point of release.

The balance statement should be struck from the rules. Or jump putts must be outlawed. Even a short hop, at the point of release, in contact with the ground, is not supported in any way.

The definition of supporting point denies the jump putt.

Bob

The penalty is not limited to a made putt. The easiest way for players to break the habit of a falling putt is to always pick up the mini before proceeding to the basket.

One of the things I do if I've lost my balance on my putt and i'm going to fall forward is I bend down and scoop up my mini. For some reason that always disguises the falling putt! :D

The balance statement should be struck from the rules. Or jump putts must be outlawed.



I'm missing something, you only have to show balance on a putt (inside 10M). A jump putt is not actually a putt(as defined by the rule book as a jump putt is from outside 10M) so you do not have to demonstrate full control of balance.

: ) :

True, but you do have to have a supporting point. Touching the ground with the toe of your shoe while your weight is moving forward, is not support.

Balance is really shown by support.

You're right, it has very little bearing on the thread topic.

I believe the whole "stay behind the marker" was because Stork used to fall forward when he was putting at ground baskets. And being three meters long with his arm extended, it was quite an advantage.

The balance statement should be struck from the rules. Or jump putts must be outlawed. Even a short hop, at the point of release, in contact with the ground, is not supported in any way.

The definition of supporting point denies the jump putt.

Bob



I agree with bob.
I'm tired of having to answer if a putt is outside 10meters. Guys having to jump from 32-11" is just stupid. (10m ~ 32'9")

Plus - most guys think that 10 paces = 10meters - which is seldom the case. I saw a guy in an NT obviously w/ a falling putt and not one guy in his group called it (I was too far away)

Of course this was the same group that wouldn't put a courtesy warning on their scorecard - when asked why they replied - there was no second!! What do you do with guys that don't know the rules?

Of course this was the same group that wouldn't put a courtesy warning on their scorecard - when asked why they replied - there was no second!! What do you do with guys that don't know the rules?



You ask them if they noticed the situation that called for the warning. If they did notice it, they should have seconded it, and I would let the TD know that these players admitted that they saw (whatever it was) and did not second the violation call, which means that they were circumventing the rules.

Not knowing the rules is no excuse.

Of course this was the same group that wouldn't put a courtesy warning on their scorecard - when asked why they replied - there was no second!! What do you do with guys that don't know the rules?



You ask them if they noticed the situation that called for the warning. If they did notice it, they should have seconded it, and I would let the TD know that these players admitted that they saw (whatever it was) and did not second the violation call, which means that they were circumventing the rules.

Not knowing the rules is no excuse.



This was at the Atlanta NT, final round, 1st hole.
I was in the 5th group - started on a 500'hole. 6th tee is visible from the 5th tee. I'm standing up to putt, when a disc comes flying in and skips at my feet (nice shot :) )
I waited after we threw off the 6th tee, and in front of the entire group issued the warning for courtesy and told them 3 times to put it on the card.

Later in the round we came across Dave Gentry and I told him to check the card behind us to see if they wrote it down, and if they didn't I wanted them all DQ'd (I was halfway kidding). After the round I asked Paul Ulibarri if they put it on the card, to which he and the offender (Devin Owens) replied - no - there was no second). These are guys that aren't just sort of good - they are really good - and they don't even know the VERY FIRST rule in the rule book.

And at that point - what recourse is there? If the Comp Director is unwilling to do anything, why don't we just pitch the rules and do whatever we want? There apparently ARE NO REPERCUSSIONS!!

Can you tell it peeved me off a little? Nothing worse than getting beat by guys that cheat.

And at that point - what recourse is there? If the Comp Director is unwilling to do anything, why don't we just pitch the rules and do whatever we want? There apparently ARE NO REPERCUSSIONS!!

Can you tell it peeved me off a little? Nothing worse than getting beat by guys that cheat.



Ding ding ding.

You of all people know that you are putting yourself at a competitive disadvantage when you know, follow, and play by the written PDGA rules of disc golf at a PDGA sanctioned event. Yeah, it's extremely irritiating...but you know it to be true going in. No sense in getting all worked up over it anymore. 10+ years of tourney play for me has seen no change in this aspect of tournament play.

And at that point - what recourse is there? If the Comp Director is unwilling to do anything, why don't we just pitch the rules and do whatever we want? There apparently ARE NO REPERCUSSIONS!!

Can you tell it peeved me off a little? Nothing worse than getting beat by guys that cheat.



Ding ding ding.

You of all people know that you are putting yourself at a competitive disadvantage when you know, follow, and play by the written PDGA rules of disc golf at a PDGA sanctioned event. Yeah, it's extremely irritiating...but you know it to be true going in. No sense in getting all worked up over it anymore. 10+ years of tourney play for me has seen no change in this aspect of tournament play.



It's about the strongest argument yet to start playing Masters :) At least MOST of those guys have been around long enough to know and follow MOST of the rules. Next time I see those guys I'm gonna hand em each a rule book. And if I ever get to play with them I'm gonna ride em HARD :mad:

Craig,

My bad - I reread 801.01 Courtesy, and nowhere in it does it say that a courtesy violation needs a second. And you did it right, per 801.01G, which says, in part,

"A player violating a courtesy rule may be warned by any affected player, even if from another group, or by an official, with all players of the group advised of the warning."

re: Dave Gentry - he would not have been next to talk with anyway. You should have gone to the TD, and explained what happened, that they did not note a courtesy warning on their scorecard, and for all you know, that same player could have received another courtesy violation and it wasn't noted either, and another violation would have resulted in a penalty throw assessed.

Wouldn't hurt, even though it is after the fact, to fill out an event evaluation form, which indicates it will go to the Tour Manager:

http://www.pdga.com/files/documents/Evaluation%20Form.pdf

But isn't Dave Gentry the Tour Manager? He does have final say on these things.

Those players that broke the rules, even through ignorance, should DQ themselves and send the money, if any, they "earned" back to the TD to be distributed to the correct players.

Nothing against them personally, I don't even know who they are.

I know of a player that did something similar when he recalled, days after the event was over, that he had given an incorrect score for a hole. He sent his money back and insisted the scores reflect his mistake and the penalty associated.

That pro has class. You wouldn't think it, but he does.

Was the incorrect score reported better or worse than the correct score?

re: Dave Gentry - he would not have been next to talk with anyway. You should have gone to the TD, and explained what happened, that they did not note a courtesy warning on their scorecard, and for all you know, that same player could have received another courtesy violation and it wasn't noted either, and another violation would have resulted in a penalty throw assessed.

Wouldn't hurt, even though it is after the fact, to fill out an event evaluation form, which indicates it will go to the Tour Manager:

http://www.pdga.com/files/documents/Evaluation%20Form.pdf



Dave Gentry happened to be at the event, and on the course during our round (perhaps acting as Course Marshall or certified official - not sure) - which was the only reason I mentioned it to him at the time.

When I found out that the group had acted as they had - the TD was in the middle of giving out CTP's and Raffle awards and such. I wasn't going to make a stink about it. It's still irksome to know that we aren't all playing by the same rules.

Still, send in the form. Give someone something that could be acted upon.

what is the official rule? There seems to be some confusion on this rule. First violation is a courtesy warning without a rethrow or with a rethrow. Then subsequent violations are rethrow with a penalty?

All ways a re throw on every called foot fault.

Also I didn't know that you need to note warnings or violations on the card, you learn something new everyday.

any penalty strokes?

The first is a warning. The player rethrows his shot. The original shot is not counted.
The second is a penalty. The player rethrows his shot. The original shot is not counted, but an additional penalty throw is counted.