If you use your thrown disc as your marker, can you still have your supporting appendage within 30 cm behind the back edge of your thrown/marker disc?

Correct. See this (http://www.pdga.com/rules/80304-stance-subsequent-to-teeing-off) rule.

Actually, you can and you must in order to comply with the rules.

What did you think your option was with using the thrown disc vs the marker disc?

What did you think your option was with using the thrown disc vs the marker disc?



I play with a person and sometimes they use a mini to mark their lie. But, sometimes they will mark their lie with the mini then take the width of the thrown disc (21cm to 30 cm) AND the 30 cm allowed behind the thrown disc for total of 51cm to 60 cm behind the mini marker (20 inches to 23.5 inches). I have told them that if they want to take advantage of the 30 cm behind the thrown disc, they must leave the thrown (now a marker) disc and play from behind it.

Correct?

Not really a big deal, they are just a casual player and they are interpreting the rules this way...which is great that they are trying to play within the PDGA rules. I just want them to have the correct ruling if they ever play a PDGA event.

You are correct. The 30 cm is based on the selected marker disc - the thrown disc or a marker mini.

So, if you feel you need a little more space behind your lie (perhaps to get around an obstacle) you are better off using your previously thrown disc as the mark rather than placing a mini. You will get a little more room and its perfectly kosher. The only downside is you cannot throw that previously thrown disc. You have to throw something else.

I think I know the answer to this question, but will ask anyway.

Can you mark the back edge of the thrown disc (mini marker on top of thrown disc, back edge of mini aligning with back edge of the thrown disc in the LOP) so that you can throw the thrown disc again?

No, it must be between the disc and the hole, touching the disc.

803.03 A) After each throw, the thrown disc must be left where it came to rest until the lie is established by the placing of a marker. This can be done by placing a mini marker disc on the playing surface <u>between the hole and the disc</u>, directly in line with the hole, on the line of play, touching the thrown disc. A player may instead choose, without touching or repositioning the thrown disc, to use the thrown disc as the marker. The marker may not be moved until the throw is released. A marker inadvertently moved prior to the throw shall be returned to its correct location.

I thought I understood this rule, but the points on the board make it confusing.

Here is the rule:
"A. When the disc is released, a player must:
(1) Have at least one supporting point that is in contact with the playing surface on the line
of play and within 30 centimeters directly behind the marker disc (except as specified in
803.04 E); and,
(2) have no supporting point contact with the marker disc or any object closer to the hole
than the rear edge of the marker disc; and,
(3) have all of his or her supporting points in-bounds."

My assumption, which may be wrong, is where the person measures to 30 cm from.

Case 1: Playing from the thrown disc. I thought it was 30 cm from the POINT that establishes your lie, which I consider the leading edge of the disc nearest the basket and on the line of play (LOP). That is the same POINT where I would place a mini marked on LOP and then remove the disc (if I were using a mini--but I am not in Case 1). Since a disc is about 20 cm, I usually have about 10 cm to 'use' when figuring out where to place my body part that will be closest to the basket on LOP and taking a legal stance.

What I am reading is that others take 30 cm from the REAR edge of the thrown disc, essentially having up to 50 cm on LOP from where they would otherwise put a mini. This does not seem right, but maybe it is...


Case 2: Using a mini marker. I place the mini at the leading edge of the disc nearest the basket and on the LOP. I then have 30 cm from behind the REAR edge of the mini on the LOP to take a legal stance. I think everyone agrees on this one.

The way I have played it is that the POINT (defined as where the LOP hits the thrown disc) is where you start measuring 30 cm. Using that logic, you always play within 30 cm irrespective of whether you are using a mini or the thrown disc to mark your lie.

However, it looks like I could be gaining 20 cm (the disc's diameter) by leaving the thrown disc as the marker. There are many cases (e.g., tucked near a bush) where this could be very helpful in legally using space to distance yourself from a tough lie.

SO, where in this text does it say where to start the measurement? "...within 30 centimeters directly behind the marker disc..." 30 cm as measured from where? Leading edge or trailing edge on the LOP? I think you can make very good arguments for either interpretation, but I see no clear resolution. Using the logic in Case 1 means you will always be within 30 cm of the leading edge of the thrown disc, and this standardization seems simple. But in Case 2, it seems like you could be anywhere from 20 cm to 50 cm from the leading edge of the thrown disc.

What am I missing?

Cheers,
Steve

803.03A. After each throw, the thrown disc must be left where it came to rest until the lie is established by the placing of a marker. This can be done by placing a mini marker disc on the playing surface between the hole and the disc, directly in line with the hole, on the line of play, touching the thrown disc. A player may instead choose, without touching or repositioning the thrown disc, to use the thrown disc as the marker. The marker may not be moved until the throw is released. A marker inadvertently moved prior to the throw shall be returned to its correct location.

Basically, The Marking Rule allows for the thrown disc to act AS the marker, OR be marked by a mini marker disc. In either case, 30 cm is measured from the rear of the marker, on the LOP, etc. In your Case #1, the thrown disc BECOMES the marker - from which 30 cm is taken. Once the thrown disc BECOMES the marker - it doesn't matter that a different mark COULD HAVE been placed.

So you are correct in assuming an advantage can be gained (so to speak) by leaving the thrown disc and using it as a marker. Although the reality of an 8" difference in the lie making a huge difference is probably more in our heads than anything else :)

makes a huge difference when playing a densely wooded course,
it can open the lines up not available when a mini is used.

However, it looks like I could be gaining 20 cm (the disc's diameter) by leaving the thrown disc as the marker. There are many cases (e.g., tucked near a bush) where this could be very helpful in legally using space to distance yourself from a tough lie.



This is one of the rare cases where you actually gain a competitive advantage by knowing and playing by the rules. :)

When I am just short of a tree that might restrict my backhand, I never mark the lie with a mini. I'll also usually take out my Aero, which is the biggest disc I carry yet smaller than 30cm, and place it behind my thrown disc and mark its back edge with a leaf or stick. That gives me a visual on about where I legally land my plant foot.

Of course I am only fooling myself about "getting an advantage" with the rules. 99% of the tournament players I see play in tournaments with a similar lie simply do a full runup and land their plant-foot 1 to 3 feet to the good side of the tree, and if you call it you will be the pariah of the card. :)

The reason the option to leave your thrown disc on the ground came about was the 1999 Worlds which was the first year Worlds had flights on courses where not everyone was playing at the same time. At least four things were introduced at this Worlds to speed play for finishing rounds in 2 hr and 15 min which is how tight the schedule was. First, was playing threesomes. This was the first time there were serious discussions on how to deal with situations when you ended up with twosomes when someone didn't show.

Second was using string to mark OB on the outside boundaries at Chili in particular. Even if you landed just 2 feet off the fairway in the brush, you were OB and didn't have to take the extra time to wiggle in there and try to hack your way out.

Third was flow of play where the group could agree that a player who was closer to the pin while walking toward the basket could shoot before the person who was farther from the pin, but behind the basket, thus saving time.

Fourth was leaving your thrown disc on the ground as your marker to save time reaching down to mark, pick up your disc and maybe place it back in your bag. Frankly, it seems like providing this positional advantage for leaving the disc is too great for the potential time savings, especially since players then take time to analyze whether to mark on not. Seems like flipping the disc as is common practice is more appropriate, would save just as much time, if not more, and the player consistently has the same lie whether marking or not.

As I understand it, those with a long memory on the Rules Committee remembered a particular high profile person who was notorious for flipping the disc more than once to gain additional footage toward the hole when it might help, such as putting. This person's behavior may have been why flipping the disc was not chosen vs leaving the thrown disc on the ground.

..... At least four things were introduced at this Worlds to speed play



And here I thought it was to give us old guys a break by cutting in half the number of times we have to bend over to mark and pick up discs during a typical round!

Since Ellis was a driving force in the changes, that could be... :cool: