What is wrong with this video? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08fMJIef0YM)

Let's play a little game of things you can find that are WRONG in this video

I will go 1st

Dude was trespassing ....notice Danger propane signs :D

More than 30 seconds to throw.

TD didn't declare the fenced area OB or required casual relief?

Hard to tell if he was behind mark on line of play since he asked about throwing on the line sideways in the direction he was facing which may not have been LOP?

This was staged. You expect me to believe he shanked a throw? :)


Methinks the TD missed something, as Chuck says.

What is wrong with this video? The audio and video seem to be in sync, but it is too grainy to read the signs, and to identify the player in question as BS.

Now, if you want to talk about what is wrong with the scene captured on the video:

The people were dressed much too warmly for late March in northern Georgia. If it was really that cold, the bald dude would have been wearing a hat.

There was already a dude in the cage, and no reason was given as to why he was in there. Was he a marshal?

The pallet that was moved to a leaning position against the fence, in order to assist the player in getting in the cage, was left there in that position, and not returned to its normal position, a clear violation of 803.05B. Technically, someone else may have moved it, and not the player, but the player was well aware of it, and did not have it replaced, which could be seen as trying to circumvent the rules (804.05A(3)).

The audio and video seem to be in sync, but it is too grainy to read the signs, and to identify the player in question as BS.



The player in question is definitely Mr. Schultz.

Yeah, that one was a stretch, but I couldn't read the name on the back of his caddy.

looks quite a bit like he took relief from the wall...

He took relief on the wall? That's nice - now I'm glad that the video is as grainy as it is.

looks quite a bit like he took relief from the wall...



I'm now wondering if the TD only included the building as OB and assumed that people would assume that such designation included the fenced in area.

According to the comments at YouTube, the TD did not make any designation about the building at all, except for possibly if a disc landed on top of it.

Honestly, looking at the building, it probably wasn't thought that someone could throw a shot that would land inside it, but now we know that someone can.

Usually, I'll specify the cement slab as the OB which sometimes gives players a little more room for taking a stance away from the building.

He also crawled through the area which he was throwing...He's probably near 200 lbs, he probably bent the fence down a little more so that his shot could fit through the gap.

Chuck, I can't believe I didn't even think of the 30 seconds....that should have been the call for us...As soon as the TD called it safe we should have said well you have 30 seconds to shoot.

I just thought it was pretty ridiculous that he got to play it I figured we would get some funny banter of what was wrong with that video....I'm not blaming the TD becasue it wasn't in print that it was OB so the TD just called it and I was cool with whatever the TD ruled and moved on, someone else in my group thought it was BS but didn't want to challenge the TD but would rather have bitched about it the rest of the round.

He also crawled through the area which he was throwing...He's probably near 200 lbs, he probably bent the fence down a little more so that his shot could fit through the gap.



The part he climbed over was wood, I don't think he bent that down!

From the time he marked his lie, it was about 42 seconds to throw. But that doesn't include the time since he approached the lie!

He took 35 seconds. Whoop-de-do.

It would have been funnier watching him hustle if the group had the clock on him though... :p

It would have been funnier watching him hustle if the group had the clock on him though... :p



WORD!!! :D That's what I'm talkin about.

Sure it's in Bounds you have 30 seconds, he probably would have taken at least half of that [censored] about it. Then scramblin over the fence would have been priceless :D

35 seconds assuming the area was clear of distractions. There was a gallery out in the fairway where he was throwing. The two camera guys were moving around.

K Mack needs to read the rule.

You guys are taking this WAYYYYY TOO SERIOUS, I don't care that he got away with it. I have seen players get away with worse. I'm just clowning that it was a ridiculous situation to begin with, I would never call someone on 30 seconds, cuz it's a silly rule, although it would have been hilarious seeing him scramble up and over the fence.

I didn't care where he was going to play from cuz I knew he was SCREWED no matter what.....he got a 6..... justice served :D

I guess I piszed off the Barry Fanclub :o

That hole was one of my highlights for the day - got a 3 both rounds :) I doubt Barry's shot was a total shank though - there was a brutal headwind on that hole the 2nd round. A guy in our group ended up at the downspout at the corner of that fence.

Kmac, I'm still not sure what you think he got away with. 30 seconds starts AFTER a reasonable time to get to the lie (like climbing over the fence) and AFTER the area is free from distractions. You don't count 30 seconds while he consults the group to check the line of play. He played it from where the disc landed. What more did you want?

Kmac, I'm still not sure what you think he got away with.



Climbing a fence, that says keep out explosive material, and is locked to play a golf shot in a NT. It would be OB 1000% of the time if it wasn't for a typo in the program. That's what he got away with if you want to be serious. It was a joke that anyone would consider trying to ask if it was in bounds. His integrity for even asking has been brought into question for some. Personally I know most of the top pro's would have tried to get away with it too because our game is setup like that.

To me, he should have been OB without a doubt, but I agreed to take what ever the TD said and be done with it. I was cool with the ruling when the TD gave it, and I'm still cool with it. I only started this thread to clown the situation of climbing into a restricted area to play from. I wasn't trying to call anyone out for being a cheater or anything like that I just wanted to share a laugh with everyone else. The only reason I even agreed with Chuck and the 30 seconds was it would have been hilarious to see him scrambling up and over the fence.

Now take a chill pill and relax and quit taking everything so serious like it's a life or death situation. You can continue to pull out your Barry photos and mess them up with your luv goo.

Couldn't he have taken an unplayable lie?

Would it have saved him any strokes in the end?

Did he land there off the tee?

If he declared unplayable, would you have given him crap for it Kevin?

Nothing personal (i'm indifferent towards Barry), but locally we were just discussing whether a top pro would utilize "unplayable" in a case like this.

E

You can continue to pull out your Barry photos and mess them up with your luv goo.



hehe....such a way with words

When he asked the group for the ruling I said it's either OB or Unplayable, which he replied correctly "It's only unplayable if the player determines it unplayable."

They were saying that the unplayable lie has been updated to proceed from your previous lie which was the tee. I have been semi retired from DG for the past 2 years so correct me if I am wrong or if it is the same old rule.

I may have harassed him a little, that's what I do ;) :Dbut not as much as the guy watching us on the tee of that hole in the 4th Round. He asked Barry if he was having bad memories of this hole while we were waiting to throw. lol :D

He was correct. The player is solely responsible for declaring unplayable. For unplayable, you can go 5m back on LOP or the previous lie with a 1 throw penalty. There is no longer lateral relief. If the space was not declared OB by the TD, then he did what he should do which is play it from where it lies.

It shouldn't have needed to be deemed OB. The place says OB for itself with the KEEP OUT SIGNS! locked with 5 pad locks. Fence upto the roof.

Don't you know that Altanta is crime ridden? He just showed a couple of kids that were watching us play, that it's ok to climb into restricted areas. That trespassing is OK as long as there is something cool on the other side of the fence. Next it will be some kid climbing into an electrical grid. And when you lose power because some kid was retrieving his kite and blew his feet off getting lit up or whatever, don't tell me I didn't warn you kids are very observant and do what their role models do. :cool:

Seeing as how so many courses are in public parks, and many of these parks have areas similar to the one Barry encountered, it seems that a general rule covering this situation could be included in the official rules.

I'm not faulting anyone involved in this particular incident, however an area that is fenced in, obvious not open to the public, and is labeled "danger" or "keep out" should be considered OB.

How different would this discussion be if Barry had sliced his leg open while climbing that fence?

Then blame the TD for not declaring it OB.

He was correct. The player is solely responsible for declaring unplayable. For unplayable, you can go 5m back on LOP or the previous lie with a 1 throw penalty. There is no longer lateral relief. If the space was not declared OB by the TD, then he did what he should do which is play it from where it lies.



Not to beat the horse, but if he landed there off the tee, he had the option of a re-tee by invoking unplayable. He would have been throwing 3 and possibly could have avoided the six.

E

Then blame the TD for not declaring it OB.



Second.

This now sounds like Climo's shed throw at Worlds in Port Arthur...

Did Schultz really want to throw it from in there? He did an awfully good job but that shot was full of risk. Had there been a penalty he would have been throwing from a meter back from where he went in and seems like he would have been lying 3 much farther up from where he was lying 2. Of course, he could have thrown a bunch of shots and still been in there if things did not work out. What was his mindset? It sure seems that most players would prefer that disc to be OB. By the way, he would have set a bad example for everybody anybody as I am sure somebody would have been climbing in to retrieve the disc even if it was OB.

so, I think we can agree that the area 'should' have been OB

but because it was technically in bounds, wouldn't it have been against the rules for him to play it as OB?

I think a clever option Barry could have taken was casual relief from a hazardous area. All you need do is point at the sign and an official or TD would have to agree no penalty relief was allowed. So I would argue he could have gotten up to 5m away from the disc on the line of play which would at least have been outside the fence.

I think a clever option Barry could have taken was casual relief from a hazardous area. All you need do is point at the sign and an official or TD would have to agree no penalty relief was allowed. So I would argue he could have gotten up to 5m away from the disc on the line of play which would at least have been outside the fence.



I hate to agree with Chuck, but this sounds right if the area wasn't declared OB. A fence and "Danger keep out" signs seem to fit the bill.

I didn't watch the video. Was the disc more than 5 meters from the fence along the LOP?

Or because it was up against a huge solid conrete building you could use the solid object rule and play from the first legal stance on the line of play, and at that point he would have been outside the fence with no penalty, no fence climbing and no bad examples for the watching children. :D

Or because it was up against a huge solid conrete building you could use the solid object rule and play from the first legal stance up to 5 meters on the line of play, and at that point he would have been outside the fence with no penalty, no fence climbing and no bad examples for the watching children. :D

The five meters relief applies only to casual obstacles. The building would not fit the definition of a casual obstacle.

Ok - Then the first place he could take a legal stance, which would still be outside the fence.

I think that since the TD did not say it was OB and the hazard signs clearly stated it was a dangerous area, Chuck's call would have been the right one to make. I also think that the signs clearly stated park regulations and under 804.05 A. 4) he could have been DQ'd for his actions and at this point, according to 804.05 C. the PDGA comissioner could decide to suspend him.

Jerry, you trying to cause trouble? I always suspected that behing that calm exterior there lurked something more sinister, and now you are starting to reveal your true colors.

Seriously, I think that we all can agree that there were some mistakes made in this situation, and some lapses in judgment. I don't think that BS should have gone in that cage to play the shot, despite the lack of dispensation from the TD, because of the clear warnings on the fence, and he should have received relief.

I refer to the "bluebonnets and other protected areas" section of the Rules Q&A:

http://www.pdga.com/faq/rules-questions-answers/bluebonnets-and-other-protected-areas

The last paragraph, "Other Comments", discusses the situation like we have here, where the TD did not declare a special condition where there should have been one declared. Was play stopped and a ruling requested? Noting the warning signs on the cage, I think BS would have been well within his rights to do so.

Did the TD make a ruling here? Per the Q&A above, he could have ruled it a casual relief area for the rest of the round. Did the TD rule that BS had to play it where it lied (or take an unplayable lie, if he so chose to)?

What happens if the TD forgets to note that the zoo next door is OB, or a casual relief area, and a throw goes into the lion's enclosure?

A Yeti might be able to handle it...

What happens if the TD forgets to note that the zoo next door is OB, or a casual relief area, and a throw goes into the lion's enclosure?



Next year's event becomes the 1st annual "Unfortunate player who had to play from the lion exhibit" Memorial?

Blue Bonnets...

I wish the PDGA would fix the QA on that topic.
Pick the blue bonnets. (http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/director_staff/Public_information/pr040207.pdf)

There isn't a provision in the rules for relief from dangerous areas, only dangerous insects and animals.

Based on 804.05(A)4, the no-trespassing signs prevent a player taking a legal stance within the fenced in area. I would think the large solid obstacle rule would be a closer fit to the situation. This would also apply to larger areas without the 5M casual relief limitation.

Shouldn't we have "Dangerous Area" or "Hazardous Flora" added into the rules?
Poisonous plants can offer as much danger to a players health and well being as "Dangerous Insects".

From the Comments section of the Bluebonnet Q&A which seems to be relevant here (regarding situations where breaking the law would occur). Of course, the Rules Q&A remarks are only advisory and not official yet...

Other Comments: Obviously, the above comments are all well and good...BUT, what if the TD failed to do his job? What IF, the player finds herself in the bluebonnets and does not know what to do? Some of the possibilities are not fun, such as breaking a state law or taking a penalty. We don't want a player to be penalized by her knowledge of and respect for the law. What to do? The player should inform her group, stop play, find the TD (or course official) and request a ruling. (Since the group has halted play while waiting on a ruling, other groups should be allowed to play through!) <font color="red"> The TD's best bet would be to declare the bluebonnet area a casual relief area (under 803.05 C) for the rest of the round (since presumably other groups have played the hole in ignorance of the laws regarding bluebonnet protection).</font> It should then remain casual relief for the rest of the tournament.

I think a major part of the need to wait for a TD to declare the area a casual relief area is the need to define extended or alternate relief since the bluebonnet fields around here are seldom less than 5m across.

I do feel that areas clearly marked by fences and no trespassing signs (where there no doubt that it is illegal to enter) should always be treated as no-play areas.

While it is not illegal to trample or pick bluebonnets in Texas ( TXDPS notice (http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/director_staff/Public_information/pr040207.pdf) ) it is discouraged on highway right of ways.

someone else in my group thought it was BS but didn't want to challenge the TD but would rather have bitched about it the rest of the round.



I am sure I can guess who this was. The same person who never messes up, and finds a way to blame every miscue on someone or something else.

He is a world champ. He wasn't the champ climbing the fence (he was happy). He wasn't THE CHAMP (he didn't probably care, he was winning by several). I would bet that it was the only champ I didn't mention.

A bloody hobby posing as a sport.

steve timm

looks quite a bit like he took relief from the wall...



I'm now wondering if the TD only included the building as OB and assumed that people would assume that such designation included the fenced in area.



Same happened to us a few events ago. One guy rolled in a 25x25 enclosed sewer which had been OB times before and I rolled right up against it. Didn't know if it was OB so took a Provisional with/without relief. Got a 3 with and a 4 without as the meter gave you a shot at a save. TD said the relief was ok then after lunch went back as he forgot to call it OB.

A Yeti might be able to handle it...



Lion wouldn't know what hit 'em