Let's say I throw OB off the tee. After the other members of my group tee off and we proceed to the point on the fairway where I was last inbounds I survey my options. At this point I have "taken a reasonable time to arrive at the disc and mark the lie". Can I decide at this point that I would rather retee and take the time to walk back to the tee? Or would this be considered excessive time?

i would say you have the time to retee.

No problem. You would be taking less time than someone who took at least three minutes trying to find their disc who was forced to go back to the tee after not finding it.

Thanks! I figured as much, but was wondering if you could see from the tee that you went OB whether you had to decide right away where to take your next shot from.

Forgive me, this is kinda long, but it's worth it.

At my last tournament, the area in which my tee shot landed was obscured, and may or may not have been OB, we could not tell from the tee box. A player in my group suggested that I throw a provisional shot, but I declined (I turned out to be IB).

Question #1: Is this allowed under the Rules? 803.01C covers Provisional Throws, and under it is the following:

"...Provisional throws are appropriate in the following circumstances:

(1) To save time: A player may declare a provisional throw any time (a) the status of a disc cannot immediately be determined, and (b) the majority of the group agrees that
playing a provisional throw may save time, and (c) the original throw may be out of bounds, lost, or have missed a mandatory. When proceeding under this type of provisional the thrower shall complete the hole from whichever of the two throws is deemed by the group or an official as the appropriate lie according to the rules."

803.01C(1) seems to indicate that it is OK to do that, so the answer to Question #1 is "Yes" and I am cool with that, but that leads me to:

Question #2: Say I threw a provisional shot, because my disc may be OB. We get to where the disc is, and it is indeed OB. To summarize 803.09B, the player whose disc is OB has the option of rethrowing from the previous mark, or throw from a mark no farther than 1M from the last point the disc went OB.

So, if I threw the provisional shot, then got down to where the disc went OB, _in my interpretation of the Rules_, I would have the choice of taking my provisional shot or the "last IB" mark, and I would take the better of the two.

BUT, if I passed on the provisional shot, and got down and found my disc OB, my next lie would have to be the "last IB" mark, or, if I chose to do so, it would be from the tee box, and I would _have_ to take that shot. I don�t have the option of taking my rethrow from the tee _OR_ the �last IB� mark.

Does this make sense to you? It reads to me that I should _always_ take the provisional shot before I determine the status of my disc, because, if I don�t like how the provisional shot turned out, I can always take the �last IB� mark, but if I don�t take the provisional, I do not have the option of choosing between two shots � I _must_ take the �last IB� mark or I _must_ take where my rethrow lands, if I choose not to take the �last IB� mark.

Question #3: The last part of 803.01C(1) states, �When proceeding under this type of provisional the thrower shall complete the hole from whichever of the two throws is deemed by the group or an official as the appropriate lie according to the rules."

Well, what if they are _both_ appropriate lies? If a disc is lost, then you must rethrow, but if the disc is OB, and you threw a provisional throw before you determined its status, does one shot take precedence over another as far as determining which lie is �appropriate lie according to the rules�? So, does the last sentence of that section not apply to the situation I have described? Would someone help me reconcile this interpretation, or give me a better one that they can substantiate?

My interpretation is that if you take a provisional to save time, "In case I'm OB, here's my retee", then you have already selected your relief and cannot choose different relief. I personally would never take a provisional for possible OB or lost disc.

I see no reason you can't declare on the tee that your retee provisional is only if the disc is lost not OB. That allows you to retain the option to play from the last point IB in the event the disc is OB.

" To summarize 803.09B, the player whose disc is OB has the option of rethrowing from the previous mark, or throw from a mark no farther than 1M from the last point the disc went OB."

It would read to me, that by taking the provisional, you have saved the time that would have been lost, by you walking back to the tee after evaluating your OB shot. You would still have the option of taking either the last IB lie or your provisional throw.

If you did not throw the provisional shot off the tee, you did not lose the right to back up and re-tee, you just slowed down the round for everyone else. IMO.

JAB

Chuck,

So, are you saying, that if a provisional shot is taken, without declaring that it is only if the disc is lost, then if the disc is OB, that you _must_ take the provisional shot instead of the "last IB" mark?

I think you are reading something into the rules that is not there. There is nothing in the rules that states you have to indicate what infraction you are taking the provisional for, it says merely that you can't tell from where you are what the status of the disc is, that the majority of the group agrees that the prov. throw could save time, and that the disc may be OB, lost or have missed a mandatory.

I disagree vehemently (sp) that taking that prov. throw means that you give up the right to take the "last IB" mark. Rule 803.09B(1) says you have that right to choose.

I am saying that taking a provisional shot for OB gives you an unfair advantage over someone who doesn't.

The best answer would be not to allow provisional shots for OB, but for the present, the rules allow it, so, if I can get my group to go along with it, I will ask for a provisional if my throw _might_ be lost OR OB.

The way this is worded,

(1) To save time: A player may declare a provisional throw any time (a) the status of a disc cannot immediately be determined, and (b) the majority of the group agrees that
playing a provisional throw may save time, and (c) the original throw may be out of bounds, lost, or have missed a mandatory. When proceeding under this type of provisional the thrower shall complete the hole from whichever of the two throws is deemed by the group or an official as the appropriate lie according to the rules."

You don't get to choose at all.
You complete the hole from whichever of the two throws is deemed BY THE GROUP OR AN OFFICIAL as the appropriate lie...

Bob

I disagree vehemently (sp) that taking that prov. throw means that you give up the right to take the "last IB" mark. Rule 803.09B(1) says you have that right to choose.




By throwing the provisional, you have already chosen.

Yes, taking a provisional does declare your choice of OB options.

This has been discussed extensively here before, I am searching for the original thread.

803.01.C limits your choices to either the disc that was originally thrown or the disc that was thrown as a provisional. When you choose to throw a provisional from the tee in the case of possible OB, you are in effect declaring your choice of OB options at the same time.

This is because it as unfair to have a known outcome as one of the choices.

The general conclusion to the original thread was that it was almost always a bad idea to take a provisional off the tee in the case of OB. Kind of defeated the purpose of saving time where OB was in play.

I think it's in here (http://discussion.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=498332&page=0&fpart=1&vc =1) somewhere.

I think both the RC and CompCom have both supported the ruling that once a non-specified provisional is taken that could cover an OB scenario, that you have made your choice. You must use the retee if your disc ends up OB or lost. We've already been thru this before and I remember Brakel pointing out how foolish it was to take a provisional if the disc could be OB.

The dialog came about when someone argued you had the option to use the provisional if you found your disc and decided it was unplayable. In that case, it was ruled you can't use the provisional unless you declared your shot unplayable from the tee so that shot was not a provisional but actually your third shot regardless where your original shot landed. Even then, it's unclear whether that can be done on a hole where the 2m penalty is in play. Although if the disc is found above 2m, the player would just be lying four instead of three after that second throw from the tee.

OK, so do you choose or does your group choose?

One side says, if you throw a provisional, and your disc is OB, then you chose to play your provisional instead of your "last IB" spot.

The other side says, look at the rule, it says that:

"When proceeding under this type of provisional the thrower shall complete the hole from whichever of the two throws is deemed by the group or an official as the appropriate lie according to the rules."

Which means that the group gets to decide which is the proper lie - the "last IB" lie or where the provisional shot landed.

Chuck is under the impression that the applicable committees have stated that the provisional shot must be taken if the original shot is OB. In that case, though, the part of the rule I quoted is not followed.

To summarize, I don't think that is it fair for someone to throw a provisional for OB, then get to choose the next lie, either where the prov. landed or the "last IB" lie, I am just trying to come to a conclusion that doesn't have two sections of the rules in direct conflict or contradicting one another.

My interpretation is that if you take a provisional to save time, "In case I'm OB, here's my retee", then you have already selected your relief and cannot choose different relief. I personally would never take a provisional for possible OB or lost disc.



Not even if the tournament director has made it a mandatory re-tee on an OB? (When the tee is at the top of a really steep hill?)

As for Bill's vehement disagreement, like Demi Moore's "strenuous objection" in A Few Good Men, I believe you are still overruled. Would it be fair to let you chose the last IB point after you wacked a tree from the tee on your provisional re-tee?

The rule is patterned after the one in ball golf. If you hadn't thrown the provisional, you could have thrown from the last IB point, but you decided, by throwing the provisional, to eschew that option.

"When proceeding under this type of provisional the thrower shall complete the hole from whichever of the two throws is deemed by the group or an official as the appropriate lie according to the rules."


There's no conflict. If the shot was IB, then the provisional is voided with no group decision necessary. If the shot was lost, then no group decision necessary. Provisional is used. If the shot is OB, and the group determines that this is the lie to be played with all options available to the thrower, I would claim that unless the thrower uses the provisional, any other choice such as playing from last point IB or drop zone or retee would mean the provisional becomes a practice throw adding another shot to his/her score, in a sense, violating the speed of play part of the provisional rule.

Throwing the provisional saves you the time from walking all the way back to the box after finding out your OB or lost missed mondo etc. but if you get down there and your IB you play 1st lie but if you throw a provand your OB you dont get to choose last IB spot or the prov.. The provisional would be your reTee thus you have thrown your 3rd shot and saved the group and field time

The way I see it, the timelines of a provisional throw works completely differently than the way the OP is arguing. Think of it more like this:

Player tees off, disc goes somewhere that it may/may not be out of bounds. Player declares he will take a provisional to save time in case the disc is out of bounds.

at THIS point, the player decides, do I want to take my third shot from the previous lie (e.g. - the tee) or go to the last in bounds spot. Player proceeds to make the throw.

IF first disc is inbounds play it with no penalty.

IF first disc is OB, play the 2nd.

The only decision that can be made after a provisional is throw is whether or not the conditional situation that demanded the provisional makes the player throw from the first or second shot.


When taking a provisional, the player assumes that a scenario has taken place (in this case disc OB), and plays the next shot (the provisional) accordingly (selecting either the original lie or last IB location).

Let's go through this one step at a time.

To prevent the rules from interfering with each other.



803.01
C. Provisional Throws. Provisional throws are extra throws that are not added to a player's score if they are not ultimately used in completion of the hole. The use of provisional throws is encouraged in all situations where there is a question regarding a thrower's lie and a provisional would speed play or when the thrower questions the group's or official's ruling. The unused throws shall not be added to the thrower's score nor treated as practice throws if the player announces that such additional throws are made as provisional throws prior to taking them. Provisional throws are appropriate in the following circumstances:

(1) To save time: A player may declare a provisional throw any time (a) the status of a disc cannot immediately be determined, and (b) the majority of the group agrees that playing a provisional throw may save time, and (c) the original throw may be out of bounds, lost, or have missed a mandatory. When proceeding under this type of provisional the thrower shall complete the hole from whichever of the two throws is deemed by the group or an official as the appropriate lie according to the rules.



I am a technical writer, and have gotten in trouble several times by expecting the rules to mean what they say, but here goes anyway.

1. Players are never required to take a provisional.
2. 803.01.C.1.c clearly sets the restriction that any player that uses a provisional shall complete the hole from either the original throw, or the provisional throw. Note that the wording does not include a lie that may result from the original throw, but the throw. In the case of OB, either the original disc is OB or it is not. If it is OB, play continues from the provisional, if not play continues from the original throw.
3. Use of the provisional rule requires a yes or no situation.

This in no way is in contention with the relief options available to a player whose disc has gone OB. All of the options are still available to them until they choose one.

Before a provisional becomes applicable there must be a yes or no proposition. Once the player chooses to throw from the previous lie there is a yes or no situation.

__________________________________________________ _______

Disclaimer:
This assumes that the player is proceeding under provision C which limits the options of the player. If the player is proceeding under option B and has convinced the card that taking the re-tee now would save time in case they decide to use it, things would be different. That is a conversation I would like to hear.

Just to chime in, Why would you take the provisional?
Just to save time at the expense of your options?
In CK's version, well unless it's a real long climb back to the previous lie, you're going to have to wait for me to get to my lie and decide if I want to rethrow or not.
I thought the provisional was there for the player.

(My edit was a spelling correction)

From a practical standpoint, how often do you see a player who has gone OB off the tee go back to throw from the tee if they were allowed to play from the last point IB? I'd say it's been zero in my own 20 years experience. The only reason to throw a provisional if OB is a possibility is if the TD required a player to retee as the only option if they went OB off the tee on that hole such as an island hole. The only times I've seen a player play from their original lie after going OB is that special situation where they were putting, hit the basket and rolled OB farther from the pin than where they putted from, and that's if they realized they could do it.

I've done it myself a few times. I admit, not a lot, but a few.
When the last IB lie leaves you a lousy stance.
It's not just off the tee either.

Knowing your options is an important part of the game.
Any game really.

Actually, I do remember once when Bob from Toronto pulled a "tin cup" on hole 9 of the old River Bends West course near Detroit. He threw three tee shots into the river before getting one to land near the hole even though some of his retees were over land farther down the fairway where he could have taken the next shot. First trip-circle 9 I ever saw in competition around 1991 or so. Of course, that wasn't a case where he walked down the fairway first and walked back to retee.

There's always a Bob story. :)

... and have gotten in trouble several times by expecting the rules to mean what they say, ...



Thank you for that, that was the laugh of the day for me, because I have gotten in deep shule for pointing out things that were perfectly acceptable under the rules, but nobody wanted to see happen!



1. Players are never required to take a provisional.


Nothing like dummying it down for the denizens here, huh?


2. 803.01.C.1.c clearly sets the restriction that any player that uses a provisional shall complete the hole from either the original throw, or the provisional throw.

That was never an issue with me. The issue I was trying to bring up was the temporal discontinuity of the two.

Note that the wording does not include a lie that may result from the original throw, but the throw. In the case of OB, either the original disc is OB or it is not. If it is OB, play continues from the provisional, if not play continues from the original throw.


You kind of lost me here, Gary. Again, there are normally two options available to the player for how to proceed after a disc has been declared OB, and they are not sequential, they are concurrent, but you are stating that if a provisional throw was taken prior to the OB declaration, then the options available to the thrower are now sequential, with the provisional throw taking precedence. Am I understanding you correctly here?


3. Use of the provisional rule requires a yes or no situation.

This in no way is in contention with the relief options available to a player whose disc has gone OB. All of the options are still available to them until they choose one.

Before a provisional becomes applicable there must be a yes or no proposition. Once the player chooses to throw from the previous lie there is a yes or no situation.


Sorry, lost again. What is the difference between a proposition and a situation?


__________________________________________________ _______

Disclaimer:
This assumes that the player is proceeding under provision C which limits the options of the player. If the player is proceeding under option B and has convinced the card that taking the re-tee now would save time in case they decide to use it, things would be different. That is a conversation I would like to hear.



Gary, if you are refering to the provisions under 803.01C(1), ALL three of the provisions have to be applicable in order to allow a provisional throw; (a)...and(b)...and (c)... So, is what you are getting at here still applicable, since he is proceeding under both (b) and (c)?


whew... :p


Well, while we are at it, here's some more to think about:

1) The disc is discovered to be OB, so the group says that the player has to take the previously thrown provisional. The player says, No I don't, I get to choose, and I choose the spot it was last in bounds. They can't come to an agreement, so the player is now taking provisional throws from the provisional! No dilemma here, just thought it was interesting/funny to see meta-provisional throws.

2) What if the provisional throw goes in the same general area of the first throw, and the group agrees that the conditions met for the first prov. still apply, and the player throws another prov. throw, which for arguments sake (and simplicity) let's say goes right down the fairway and is visible from the tee box. What happens if the original throw is found OB, but the first provisional is not found? Does the status of the first provisional throw have any bearing on establishing the player's next lie?

hee, hee, hee, need to start drawing decision trees for this one...

I've seen provisional provisionals. But not provisional provisional provisionals.
This saves time?

1. Players are never required to take a provisional.


Nothing like dummying it down for the denizens here, huh?
<font color="blue">Meaning that rules do not conflict unless they are forced on you.</font>



2. 803.01.C.1.c clearly sets the restriction that any player that uses a provisional shall complete the hole from either the original throw, or the provisional throw.

That was never an issue with me. The issue I was trying to bring up was the temporal discontinuity of the two.

Note that the wording does not include a lie that may result from the original throw, but the throw. In the case of OB, either the original disc is OB or it is not. If it is OB, play continues from the provisional, if not play continues from the original throw.


You kind of lost me here, Gary. Again, there are normally two options available to the player for how to proceed after a disc has been declared OB, and they are not sequential, they are concurrent, but you are stating that if a provisional throw was taken prior to the OB declaration, then the options available to the thrower are now sequential, with the provisional throw taking precedence. Am I understanding you correctly here?
<font color="blue">I am saying that unless the player states a desire to exercise the rethrow from previous lie option for OB, there is no need to throw again from the tee to save time</font>

3. Use of the provisional rule requires a yes or no situation.

This in no way is in contention with the relief options available to a player whose disc has gone OB. All of the options are still available to them until they choose one.

Before a provisional becomes applicable there must be a yes or no proposition. Once the player chooses to throw from the previous lie there is a yes or no situation.


Sorry, lost again. What is the difference between a proposition and a situation?
<font color="blue">Nothing, but the decision has to be one that can be made by rule, not by the player. The card has to decide based on the rules, not the player decides based on best lie.</font>

__________________________________________________ _______

Disclaimer:
This assumes that the player is proceeding under provision C which limits the options of the player. If the player is proceeding under option B and has convinced the card that taking the re-tee now would save time in case they decide to use it, things would be different. That is a conversation I would like to hear.



Gary, if you are refering to the provisions under 803.01C(1), ALL three of the provisions have to be applicable in order to allow a provisional throw; (a)...and(b)...and (c)... So, is what you are getting at here still applicable, since he is proceeding under both (b) and (c)?

<font color=" blue">You are correct sir, just checking to see if you read to the end. (I'd never make a good politician, I can't lie well enough).</font>

Well, while we are at it, here's some more to think about:

1) The disc is discovered to be OB, so the group says that the player has to take the previously thrown provisional. The player says, No I don't, I get to choose, and I choose the spot it was last in bounds. They can't come to an agreement, so the player is now taking provisional throws from the provisional! No dilemma here, just thought it was interesting/funny to see meta-provisional throws.

<font color="blue">That is a valid use of the provisional rule, and the hole should be completed from both locations.</font>

2) What if the provisional throw goes in the same general area of the first throw, and the group agrees that the conditions met for the first prov. still apply, and the player throws another prov. throw, which for arguments sake (and simplicity) let's say goes right down the fairway and is visible from the tee box. What happens if the original throw is found OB, but the first provisional is not found? Does the status of the first provisional throw have any bearing on establishing the player's next lie?
<font color="blue">That is correct. Once the first disc is found to be OB, the first provisional becomes the live disc. If it is not found, the lost disc rule comes into play. Unless the player specifically stated the provisional was only for the case of OB, the second provisional would be the new live disc.</font>

hee, hee, hee, need to start drawing decision trees for this one...

[/QUOTE]

<font color="blue">Nothing, but the decision has to be one that can be made by rule, not by the player. The card has to decide based on the rules, not the player decides based on best lie.</font>



I think this statement best sums up the cruxt of the issue. The lie must be determined by the group...based on the rules. (is the disc completely surrounded by OB area). Once thats determined, the player decides how to proceed...based on the rules. (throw 1m in from where it went out, throw from previous lie, drop-zone)

By throwing a provisional off the tee, the player has already decided how to proceed if his disc is OB. By trying to save a little time, hes limited his options.

Good discussion!! These lenghthy message board rules discussions have helped me make rulings before....I think they're very good for thinking rules and scenarios out and coming to the correct conclusions.

The consensus seems to be that, if the player takes the provisional shot under the "to save time" provision, then the player has chosen to indeed same time, by giving up the option to throw from the "last IB" spot or to return to the previous lie to throw, if it is discovered that the original throw is OB.

Since the rule does state that this is done to save time, then it would definitely save the time of the player returning to the previous lie to throw, and probably saves time otherwise, since it probably would take less time for the player to throw again from the original lie than it would for the player, with the group's agreement, to figure out where the "last IB" spot was, then the player determining how much of the 1 meter to take, then setting up and throwing.

As far as the group or the rules deciding how to proceed, I think that we are getting into semantics here. The rules indeed "decide" how a certain situation is to be handled, but this rule says that the group is to decide which rule is to be used, and _that_ rule will decide where the next spot is. Right?


I will try to summarize:

Status of throw unknown

1) Player does not take a provisional shot
...A) Shot is IB. Player takes next shot from where the disc is.
...B) Shot is OB. Player adds one throw to score, and:
......i) Player may choose to take the "last IB" spot, or
.....ii) Player may choose to rethrow from previous lie
...C) Shot is lost. Player must rethrow from previous lie and add one throw to score for the hole.
......(there is no "throw from last seen" spot rule anymore)

2) Player does take a provisional throw
...A) Shot is IB. Player takes next shot from where the disc is, which no addition to the player's score for that hole due to the "extra" provisional throw.
...B) Shot is OB. Player takes next throw from where the provisional shot is, and adds one throw to the score for the hole. The player chose to give up his options in order to save time.
...C) Shot is lost. Player adds one throw to the score for the hole and proceeds from the lie of the provisional throw.


I think that takes care of all the options. I did not want to get into the case of missing a mandatory, because, in the great majority of cases, what added information will you get, in regards to determining where a disc landed past the mandatory, in determining whether or not the disc made the mandatory?

Given that there is no drop zone and the TD has not otherwise restricted OB options, yes (as it has been explained to me in the past).

The other option is specifying that the provisional is taken specifically in the event of a lost disc but not OB as I posted above. That would allow the player all options in the event the disc was OB AND the provisional shot could not be accepted as a rethrow from the tee. If the shot ended up OB and the player did not want to play from the last point IB and there was no drop zone, the player would have to go back to the tee and make that throw again with the provisional being discarded (as opposed to disc carded ;-)

From the Q and A section:

"Here�s the other scenario: Our golfer�s drive clears the OB lake but hits a tree and bounces back towards the water. The TD has restricted the OB options on this hole to a re-tee for any drive that winds up OB. From the tee , it�s not clear if our golfer�s shot is in bounds or out of bounds. Our golfer can declare a provisional and throw her second shot from the tee (with a one throw penalty) in case the original drive is OB. Then the group proceeds around the lake and determines the status of our golfer�s original drive. If it�s in bounds, she plays from there�picking up the provisional re-tee with no penalty. If she�s OB, the she picks up the original drive and completes the hole from the re-teed discs location, adding a one throw penalty for going OB. The rule is used to save time and avoid two possible treks around the lake."

So, to summarize the score(s):

Original drive is IB:
Throw 1 = drive, throw 2 = provisional drive, throw 3 = upshot from IB lie, throw 4 = made putt (holing out). Provisional throw is not counted since it was not used. Total throws recorded (score) = 3.

Original drive is OB:
Throw 1 = drive, throw 2 = provisional drive, throw 3 = upshot from provisional drive's lie, throw 4 = made putt (holing out). Provisional throw is counted. Penalty stroke for going OB is added. Total throws recorded = 5 (4 throws + 1 penalty).

For some reason I thought there was a penalty associated with using a provisional, but that is not the case. The penalty is related to being OB, lost or having missed the mando.

Cheers,
Steve

basically there are situations that a player could choose to go back to the tee and retee, depending on the lie, and its a judgement call based on the lie when you get there. im not sure that the provisional would be used fairly in these situations.

provisionals are always IF/THEN situations

IF its ob, THEN im taking the provisional. IF its Inbounds, THEN im not taking the provisional. no conditions, simple if/then statements.

IF this area is inbounds, THEN im using my original shot. IF this area is OB, THEN im using this provisional shot.

right? just making sure i understand

Unplayable lie is not listed as a reason for taking a provisional.

The post I was replying to was editted. Nothing to see here. Move along.

yea i realized that, and edited the long post. sorry that you are so fast. ;)

Steve,

In the situation you quoted from the Q &amp; A, the OB shot is treated exactly the same as a lost disc, that is, if the shot is not IB, you must retee. So the use of the provisional there makes perfect sense, and there is no need to play the if/then game.

I think that takes care of all the options. I did not want to get into the case of missing a mandatory, because, in the great majority of cases, what added information will you get, in regards to determining where a disc landed past the mandatory, in determining whether or not the disc made the mandatory?



If you have a mandatory where the TD has made the drop zone a re-tee. If you know the disc was offline, but don't know if the throw got past the plane of the mando, you could call the re-tee a provisional until you go find your disc.

Say you have a mando that you need to pass on the left. If you miss it, you have to re-tee. Your disc hits the mando tree and goes 90 degrees right, but you aren't sure if it crossed the plane of the mando when it stopped. A provisional would save time here if you actually missed it...

Perhaps I should have started a new thread but this one seemed close. In a recent tournament on a mountain course there was a player who decided to take a provisional throw after deciding his drive may not be located (lost disc). For a little background this hole is almost vertical with a wide fairway but it is almost surrounded by trees over 100 feet tall when you tee off you are actually standing above some of those trees. Considering that walking all the way back up the steep ski slope (810 feet) would be a bad idea, he threw a provisional. The first throw was declared lost after the clock ran out. Then the provisional was declared lost after the clock ran out. The player unfortunately had to return to the top of the hill to the tee box to tee again. That is where two groups were waiting. (6 people) When he got there he asked if he was throwing for 3 or 5. Immediately the debate began. Of the six of us, four were officials. One would think this is an easy decision, so immediately I said you are throwing for 5. However the decision was 2-2 according to the four officials. We then searched for a rule book. This is all we could locate in the book.
Provisional Throw: An extra throw, agreed upon by a player's group, that is not added to a player's score if not used in the completion of the hole. Additionally, a set of provisional throws that will be allowed to complete a hole as an alternative to the original play of the hole, when there is a disputed ruling. Only one set of throws will be counted as the player's score when a final ruling is made.
803.01C Provisional Throws. Provisional throws are extra throws that are not added to a player�s score if they are not ultimately used in completion of the hole. The use of provisional throws is encouraged in all situations where there is a question regarding a thrower�s lie and a provisional would speed play or when the thrower questions the group�s or offi cial�s ruling. The unused throws shall not be added to the thrower�s score nor treated as practice throws if the player announces that such additional throws are made as provisional throws prior to taking them. Provisional throws are appropriate in the following circumstances:

After reading this; the decision turned to 3-1 in favor of the player throwing for 3. Reasoning being that the rule was stating that provisional throws not used are not added to the players score. I disagreed by stating the provisional shot was considered used once the original shot was declared lost. We then just let him play with the ultimate decision to be placed on the TD since the result would be a simple two stroke swing. We were unable to consult the players on his card since they were 800 feet away down the mountain. The TD stated that he was throwing for 5 off of the Tee. I believe this to be the correct decision but how could it be made clearer in the manual?

Provisional is used in two ways. One, when an alternate sequence of shots to the target is needed as in whether a disc is OB or not and the lies are different if OB or not. The other type of provisional is when a contingency is advisable such as this lost disc example. The confusion is when an official erroneously thinks of the "alternate sequence" version versus the "contingency" version. In the contingency version, if the contingency shot is used, it's the player's live next throw. In the alternate sequence, only one throw sequence or the other is used but not both.

Short of using a different word than "provisional" for one of these scenarios, I'm not sure the rulebook can be more clear. The first sentence in the Provisional Throw definition explains the Contingency version. The remaining two sentences explain the Alternate sequence version. For the computer geeks, the alternate sequence is like an OR logic function and the contingency is an IF-THEN-ELSE function. How about that for clearing things up :)

I don't know that it needs to be made clearer. You (and the TD thankfully) were correct of how the provisional should be treated. The stated reason for the provisional throw was because the player thought his initial drive might not be located. Once that initial shot was declared lost, the provisional became the active shot. The only way in which the provisional would not be used and counted is if the group found the original shot.

The simple question to ask the three "officials" who disagreed with you is this...would the player have played from the provisional if it had been located before the three minute clock expired? If they say yes, then obviously the shot is in play no matter whether it is located or not.

What if the rest of the group said, "No, I think we can find it". Per 803.10C(1)(b), it appears that the player would not be allowed to take the provisional. But looking at 803.10D(3), if an official is not readily available, then the thrower may disregard the group's ruling, and play a provisional anyway? So, in the case where no official is readily available, what the group thinks is irrelevant, correct? An even if an official is readily available, and the player does not agree with the official's decision, the player can still take a provisional per 803.01C(2).

There is no risk to the player in taking a provisional shot, even when the group and an official disagree with the player. Do you think that there should be some risk, in the form of penalty throws, if the TD ultimately denies the provisional throw after the player has taken it? The NFL charges a time out if a team disagrees with a ruling and it is ultimately upheld. Should we do something similar, in accessing a penalty throw(s) ? Wouldn't that speed up play by minimizing frivolous provisional shots?

I know that this is not a big problem now, but what is wrong with eliminating a loophole now before it becomes a problem?