Ok, I should know this but I'm not sure.

I'm playing a 700 foot hole and crank one out about 350. I mark my lie correctly but when I try to chuck another drive, l land way left of my lie. An official calls me on a stance violation. It's the first one of the round so it's a warning. I now don't use that shot. I throw again and the official is good with this throw and I land it under the basket. That throw I did not use is not counted. In other words I don't take that stroke. It does not qualify as a practice throw. It's considered a "re-throw" under definition of a practice throw. I make the putt. I get a three. Is this correct?

F. A stance violation must be clearly
called within three seconds after the
infraction to be valid. The call may
be made by any member of the group
or an offi cial. When the call is made
by a member of the group, it must
subsequently be confirmed by another
member of the group. A player shall
receive a warning for the first violation
of a stance rule in the round.
Subsequent violations of a stance rule in the
same round shall incur a one-throw penalty.
G. Any throw that involves a validly called
and seconded stance violation may not
be used by the thrower. Re-throws must
be taken from the original lie, prior to
subsequent play by others in the group.

You are correct. The rule really should have the following addition (in italics) to make it clearer "G. Any throw that involves a validly called and seconded stance violation is not counted and may not be used by the thrower."

I've got to disagree because of the way I read G:

"G. Any throw that involves a validly called
and seconded stance violation may not
be used by the thrower."

It doesn't say the throw isn't counted, just not used by the thrower. An unplayable lie isn't used by the thrower either, but you still count the throw. Only in this case on the warning you don't get the additional penalty stroke but I *believe* you *still* count the throw.

That is my take on it anyway. If the rule is not like I read it, a player could make a bad throw, then say "I made a stance violation, you saw that right?" and if someone seconded it they would get a rethrow without any penalty? Come on, that can't be right!

I've got to disagree because of the way I read G:

"G. Any throw that involves a validly called
and seconded stance violation may not
be used by the thrower."

It doesn't say the throw isn't counted, just not used by the thrower. An unplayable lie isn't used by the thrower either, but you still count the throw. Only in this case on the warning you don't get the additional penalty stroke but I *believe* you *still* count the throw.

That is my take on it anyway. If the rule is not like I read it, a player could make a bad throw, then say "I made a stance violation, you saw that right?" and if someone seconded it they would get a rethrow without any penalty? Come on, that can't be right!



Actually, that can happen. The difference between unplayable lie and a stance violation is that an unplayable lie is chosen by the thrower after the throw is complete and counted. A stance violation occurs in the act of throwing. A throw for a stance violation is never counted. On subsequent throws, there is a penalty, but the throw is not counted. If it was, a second stance violation would essentially be a two throw penalty.

That is my take on it anyway. If the rule is not like I read it, a player could make a bad throw, then say "I made a stance violation, you saw that right?" and if someone seconded it they would get a rethrow without any penalty? Come on, that can't be right!



they can only do it once with a warning, then its a stroke for every subsequent violation - plus the call must be made within 3 seconds, so they can't wait and see where their shot actually ended up...

not to mention that your scenario would be closer to circumventing the rules... tough to prove intent, but if the player is encouraging somebody to 2nd his call just so he can get an extra throw, it makes you wonder...

Ahh, I see the difference. Since the stance violation occurs before the throw, the throw is nullified. I can dig it!

That is my take on it anyway. If the rule is not like I read it, a player could make a bad throw, then say "I made a stance violation, you saw that right?" and if someone seconded it they would get a rethrow without any penalty? Come on, that can't be right!



they can only do it once with a warning, then its a stroke for every subsequent violation - plus the call must be made within 3 seconds, so they can't wait and see where their shot actually ended up...

not to mention that your scenario would be closer to circumventing the rules... tough to prove intent, but if the player is encouraging somebody to 2nd his call just so he can get an extra throw, it makes you wonder...



Calling yourself for a violation can never be circumventing the rules. It may be trying to take advantage of the rules, but not be considered avoiding the rules. Any player that fails to second a real foot fault is the player that is circumventing the rules by not calling a valid infraction.

Gary,

Up late again last night, huh? BTW, thanks a whole heap for the work you put into Harmony Hills. It was nice to see you and talk to you out there.

re: calling yourself and begging for a 2nd. You are right, it is not circumventing the rules, but it could still be cheating. If I was another player, and I clearly saw that there was no foot fault, and I saw that the thrower said that there was, and begged for and received a second, I would speak up and say I clearly saw that there was no foot fault, and do you want to reconsider your call. If they stood their ground, then that would be "cheating", and should be reported to the TD, who would probably do nothing if it was just that instance, but I would insist that it be noted on the report that the TD submits.

How could they "stand their ground" w/out a valid 2nd on the call?

So the "cheating" reference seems unnecessary to me.

They could "stand their ground" by claiming that the second was valid, whether or not it truly was.

If you were watching for the footfault, and saw no foot fault, and two other people said, yes, there was a foot fault, what would you call it? I'm not saying that there is an actionable situation here, but if I was the one who was in that situation, I would know they are cheating.

15 years of PDGA tournaments and I have never seen that happen.

I mean the collusion to "cheat" which by definition you mention having a validly called 2nd on the foot fault.

I suppose it could, but then you get into very subjective territory ...

Bill, I hope you have never seen this happen either.

Peace,
Doc

I haven't seen it happen. I was just responding to I_am_done post #910419.

If the call was made early enough to be valid, the shot must have been real bad.

You could report your suspicion, but you do not know if the player really believed it or not. As for the begging...

It would be a suspicion if one wasn't watching the player throwing, but if one was, and did not see a foot fault, it would be more than a suspicion.