I've only been playing about a year and a half...but I've played in over 40 PDGA Sanctioned Tournaments in that span. I'd only been playing about two weeks when I entered my first tournament. Along that road I've seen many violations of the rules...some in ignorance and some simply outright. I've heard arguments from both sides...about being realistic and some being milliteristic about the rules. I've accepted the fact we are self policing...but I've yet to figure out when to call...and when to pull someone to the side and point out their errors. I just read a story on ESPN pertaining to ball golf and I'm blown away by this mans actions...his calling himself out for an infraction that I don't think but a handfull of disc golfers would. With perhaps millions of dollars at stake for himself...he still did the right thing ...TWICE...on something that no one but himself would have noticed.

DQ'd from PGA qualifier (http://sports.espn.go.com/golf/news/story?id=3712372)

Kinda makes you think about things differently when it comes to yourself.

Difference is $$$$ and exposure.

He had a career to lose if he was caught. DGers only have their weekend hobby.

(Sad, but true.)

Difference is $$$$ and exposure.

He had a career to lose if he was caught. DGers only have their weekend hobby.

(Sad, but true.)




Mr. Bender, as opposed to pontificating truisims, I would recommend you do something about the Texans and get me a win this weekend. :cool:

I play with cheaters every day. All I can do is try to follow the rules to the best of my ability.

Congratulations Mr. Stephens. You have discovered the main philosophical difference between competitive ball golf and competitive disc golf.

I tend to try and pull someone aside first and let them know they are breaking a rule. If need be I'll pull out the rule book and show them the rule. If they persist in breaking the rule I will call the violation on them.

That being said I have never called anyone on a rule violation on anyone, yet.

But be careful because many rules can be understood in different ways, always get the consensus of the group, as that will govern all rule violations.

Often the td will take the side of the violator and dismiss it. We all carry the same rulebook but we aren't forced to play by the same rules.

You might as well praise a man for not robbing a bank.

Often the td will take the side of the violator and dismiss it. We all carry the same rulebook but we aren't forced to play by the same rules.


http://www.tripledisc.com/preview/msdgc/postofthday.jpg

i played in a tournament 2 weeks ago and on the leader card in advanced, and the guy that was in 3rd place at the start of the round had a couple of bad holes to start the round. he then starts throwing his disc and mini, saying stroke me i dont care!!!! i know its against the rules and i dont care so just stroke me!!! of course no one did, but we all should have! if we counted all of his extra strokes he would have been way out of the cash and someone else would have been in his place! i know that was what we should have done but no one did!!! i dont know why but it just doesnt seem that important to me! i have called people on falling putts and foot faults before, but never anything that doesnt give someone the upper hand on me! also the weekend before, i was told at an a-tier, i wasnt allowed to fix the chains before i made my putt! the guy was cool about it and just warned me, but later i found out that was not against any rule in the book! i talked to several td's and officials about this and i posted that question in ask chuck kennedy thread and it again was re-inforced as a non violation! i just think too many people dont know the rule book well enough to call someone on some of the questionable stuff!!!!!

...and too many people don't know it well enough to tell others to shove it when they make bogus calls.

Often the td will take the side of the violator and dismiss it. We all carry the same rulebook but we aren't forced to play by the same rules.



This is because English has vastly different interpretations depending upon the geographic area in which you happen to be located. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif If only we could all speak and understand English.

As long as this stuff isn't important to the majority, it will continue. Long ago, I saw that any effort to change this was futile given the prevailing attitude. I have since steered my talents towards other aspects of the game.

We all carry the same rulebook but we aren't forced to play by the same rules.



Even when you do, the competition manual and the rules book directly contrast each other in some parts.

Which do you turn to when?

Please provide example . . .

There are players that do call themselves. In 2003 at World's my card and I called ourselves for misplay of the hole. The other players on the card were not that sure of the rule and I explained to them the error. If I had kept my mouth shut, there would have been no issue and quite possibly we could have gotten away with it. That two strokes cost me five spots. There are plenty of players that will call themselves, I have seen it. As for when a call should have been made, we should make calls when they occur, but MTL is right in this, we tend to overlook small things occasionally. As for honesty, the player that was throwing discs was not being honest when asking to be stroked, he was looking for someone else to blame. The best response would have been for the other card members to simply stand up to the player and tell him that they were stroking him.

Since I'm only in the Int. division I usually give warnings to the violations I see because I know many players in my division dont know the rules. All I tend to do is walk up to them, tell them that what they did is a strokeable offense, but the 1st time is warning, and that they need to know the rules because some people arent hesistant to penalize you immediately. My philosophy behind this is that we're playing for plastic so no need to penalize the minor issues. Now if a violation occurs that is an outright circumvention of the rules then I'll get on them about it.

I remember simply calling a warning for a rule violation on this one dude in a tournament, and he stuck his fists up ready to fight me! It was ridiculous! I stayed calm about because it wasnt worth it, but after a few minutes talking to the dude he calmed down and gave me an apology. I didnt threaten to go to the TD before he gave the apology, and he seemed sincere about it. He was on top card with me during that round, but was completely blowing up. Had he not calmed down and given an apology then I would have walked off from the group and gone to the TD. After the round he apologized again, and we hung out for the rest of the wknd. like buddies.

I consider myself someone who tries their best to keep the rules of the game intact, but at the same time realize who the people I'm playing with are, and try my best to educate before enforcing.

There are players that do call themselves. In 2003 at World's my card and I called ourselves for misplay of the hole. The other players on the card were not that sure of the rule and I explained to them the error. If I had kept my mouth shut, there would have been no issue and quite possibly we could have gotten away with it. That two strokes cost me five spots. There are plenty of players that will call themselves, I have seen it. As for when a call should have been made, we should make calls when they occur, but MTL is right in this, we tend to overlook small things occasionally. As for honesty, the player that was throwing discs was not being honest when asking to be stroked, he was looking for someone else to blame. The best response would have been for the other card members to simply stand up to the player and tell him that they were stroking him.



JP,
Word, in PM.
Ron

Please provide example . . .



Rule Book :

A. A player shall be disqualified by the director for meeting any of the necessary conditions of
disqualification as set forth in the rules, or for any of the following:
(4) Activities which are in violation of the law or park regulation or disc golf course rule,
including the illegal consumption of drugs or alcohol.

Competition Manual

D. The use of alcohol is forbidden from the 2-minute warning
until the player�s scorecard is submitted. Such use shall
result in immediate disqualification at a B Tier or higher
event. At a C or D Tier event the TD shall either disqualify
the offending player or issue them a warning.

I thought the rules stated that use of alcohol is a DQ. The Comp manual says that in C or D tiers, its TD discretion.

Rule Book
804.06
B. All players within a division should be randomly grouped for the first round and grouped by
cumulative score for each round thereafter.

Comp Manual
B. All players within a division for the first round should be
grouped via two methods:
(1) Random grouping; players within a division may be
randomly grouped for the first round and grouped by
cumulative score for each round there after.
(2) Player Rating grouping; players within a division may
use player rating to set first round groups. Highest
rated player starting on the lowest number hole, the
second highest rated player starting on the following
hole, etc. This process would continue until all
starting holes have been filled.

The rule book CLEARLY states random. The Comp Manual gives an option.

Please provide example . . .



Rule Book :

A. A player shall be disqualified by the director for meeting any of the necessary conditions of
disqualification as set forth in the rules, or for any of the following:
(4) Activities which are in violation of the law or park regulation or disc golf course rule,
including the illegal consumption of drugs or alcohol.

Competition Manual

D. The use of alcohol is forbidden from the 2-minute warning
until the player�s scorecard is submitted. Such use shall
result in immediate disqualification at a B Tier or higher
event. At a C or D Tier event the TD shall either disqualify
the offending player or issue them a warning.

I thought the rules stated that use of alcohol is a DQ. The Comp manual says that in C or D tiers, its TD discretion.

Rule Book
804.06
B. All players within a division should be randomly grouped for the first round and grouped by
cumulative score for each round thereafter.

Comp Manual
B. All players within a division for the first round should be
grouped via two methods:
(1) Random grouping; players within a division may be
randomly grouped for the first round and grouped by
cumulative score for each round there after.
(2) Player Rating grouping; players within a division may
use player rating to set first round groups. Highest
rated player starting on the lowest number hole, the
second highest rated player starting on the following
hole, etc. This process would continue until all
starting holes have been filled.

The rule book CLEARLY states random. The Comp Manual gives an option.



Couple of things, the rule is against the use of alcohol where it is illegal, the competition manual is for cases where it is not illegal since the rule book has already ruled on that issue.

Next in grouping, the rules state 'should' which has been discussed at some length in the past. Should does not equal must. Now I can agree that it seems at odds that the rule states should, but it is not in direct disagreement, only about 90 degrees

why is there a need for both?

why is there a need for both?



I don't believe there is, however, I believe a question was put to the Rules committee, but I could be wrong, on how to "randomly" mix up the players. Yes I understand that there should not have to be a procedure for randomly grouping up players, but if two players sign up at the same time, the odds are pretty high that they will be on the same card so it could be argued that using sign ups, while it is random for the TD is not random for the players.

but if two players sign up at the same time, the odds are pretty high that they will be on the same card so



I don't see this happen very often.

if two players sign up at the same time, the odds are pretty high that they will be on the same card so it could be argued that using sign ups, while it is random for the TD is not random for the players.



Yes it could be argued, but not successfully. Unless the players all get together before sign up and collude to line up in a certain order, their arrival order at sign up is random. If the process is random, then the grouping is random.

It does not follow logic that a random process will produce results that are not random.

Back on Topic: J. P was on Mike and Mike this morning. The past two days they've had alot of discussions about honesty and integrity, it was pretty interesting.

Now back to your babbling about Rule book v. Comp manual

JP = Jonathan Poole?

Hayes you arse munch. COme on Slack

lol... had to ask. Especially since there was talk of trying to Mike/Mike to USDGC last year... was hoping a connection was made.

back to your regularly scheduled program

Quote:
if two players sign up at the same time, the odds are pretty high that they will be on the same card so it could be argued that using sign ups, while it is random for the TD is not random for the players.



Yes it could be argued, but not successfully. Unless the players all get together before sign up and collude to line up in a certain order, their arrival order at sign up is random. If the process is random, then the grouping is random.

It does not follow logic that a random process will produce results that are not random.



While, I do agree that it would be difficult for an entire division to collude as to who is playing with who, I can not tell you how many times I have ridden to a tournament with a friend, who plays in the same division, and consequently been in the registration line behind each other. I would argue that this can give a clear advantage, as I would be playing with a friend, who I play with all the time. That definitely has a calming factor, and I always play better when I am on a card with such friends.

But are you honest while playing with friends?

Character is what you do when nobody is looking. Would you call yourself on a rules violation when you were the only one on the course?

Character is what you do when nobody is looking. Would you call yourself on a rules violation when you were the only one on the course?


I believe that intergrity but character might imply too

People are making WAY to big of a deal about JP Hayes.

This guy is getting more publicity and media attention than he ever had b/c of this. This will make it more likely to get sponsors and such. He has made 7 million in his career and won a PGA event last year which will get him into PGA events this year.

More than likely if he were to not turn himself in and get caught, his career, especially with sponsors, would be over.

This is not about a guy doing the right thing, its simply him making the correct decision for his career.

whatever, we need more peeps like this in the world. I'm sure it was to get sponsors are you serious Wait nevermind don't need anymore babbling from you. Go worry about Rule books v. Comp manual. I'm sure if you had some of Innovas illegal 182ers in your bag you wouldn't turn yourself in. Lateeeeeeeer

To paraphrase an old saying: If there is larceny in someone, golf will bring it out.

Quote:
if two players sign up at the same time, the odds are pretty high that they will be on the same card so it could be argued that using sign ups, while it is random for the TD is not random for the players.



Yes it could be argued, but not successfully. Unless the players all get together before sign up and collude to line up in a certain order, their arrival order at sign up is random. If the process is random, then the grouping is random.

It does not follow logic that a random process will produce results that are not random.



While, I do agree that it would be difficult for an entire division to collude as to who is playing with who, I can not tell you how many times I have ridden to a tournament with a friend, who plays in the same division, and consequently been in the registration line behind each other. I would argue that this can give a clear advantage, as I would be playing with a friend, who I play with all the time. That definitely has a calming factor, and I always play better when I am on a card with such friends.

I don't have an argument. All I have is what i know from running or helping run 80 or 90 tournaments and from playing 3 times that many. If you can get on the same card as a buddy by standing in line with him, you stand in line with him. If you can get on the same card by begging or telling the TD some lame story, you beg or tell the TD some lame story. If you can get on the same card by donating a CTP, you donate a CTP. I've been on both ends of all these scenarios. :D

And yes, you do call the rules differently on a friend. I've seen friends go at each other brutally on the rules. I've never seen friends be more lax than strangers, but that's probably because in our game that's not even possible.

Randomly grouping players is easy. Just shuffle the cards before you put them on the board.

How can we expect players to be honest about rules when many will not attempt to return a disc when the owner has put his/her name and phone number on the disc?

I called a violation on myself at the 2008 Bowling Green Ams and could have easily concealed the violation, but I earned more points and cred by doing the right thing and taking the two stroke penalty! And yeah, it cost me a 10th place finish in advanced master, one of my goals, but I finished 12th and accomplished the goal of cashing!

rWc3523

To paraphrase an old saying: If there is larceny in someone, golf will bring it out.



Golf doesn't build character, it exposes it!

I am currently fighting City Hall bc I believe that my massage therapy industry is being unfairly discriminated against. They raised the licensing fees from $50 to $750 last year with no advance notice, while every other business in Novi (save pawnbrokers and arcades = no relevence to massage) pays $20 for their license.

When I asked the Mayor to explain why it costs 4000% more than any other business for a massage therapist to receive the City's permission to set up shop here, they said it was for various inpsections.

I researched those 'various inspections' and they are all free to any other business needing an inspection, so I asked the Mayor why we should pay for inspections when others do not?

City Council Member Gatt said, "Recently there had been an incident in Metro Detroit regarding a massage therapist/parlor. To say that bad things couldn't happen in these establishments was just not true, and it proved the point that we need regulation, enforcement, and the reviews the ordinance calls for." And also apparantly the exorbitant fees.

I say that the former sentence could be uttered exactly the same substituting Mayor Kwame Kilpatrick for massage therapist, so how much does our own Novi Mayor pay to keep our city clean of corrupt mayors? That didn't go over too well.

Finally they said they would not answer my question because I already had the answers I just refused to accept them. If anyone else would like to try and find out why we pay more than other businesses, his email address is

[email protected]

If he refuses to answer me because "i already have the answers" (??????) maybe he'll be willing to answer someone else.

this is the best example of a shredded integrity that I have seen in a long, long time.

sounds like a quick fix enacted to pacify a bigger, louder group's outrage towards the "massage" parlor that offers illegal services. unfortunately, like with many quick gov'nt fixes, they failed to take into account the effect on those offering the legal variety. good luck skee

sounds like someone needs to change the business title to a spa ;) (assuming they pay the lower licensing fee as well)

Maybe the elected officials will waive the fee for a free "massage". :D Or maybe they are fine with massage parlors offering happy endings as long as they get their cut. :o