In my first year of tournament play, I've noticed non-members placing high and winning in the Rec division. By not having a rating, players can win Rec and continue to play Rec since there is not a rating to push them up to Intermediate. A possible solution could be to force non-members (or at least top 3 finishers) to use their winnings towards purchasing a PDGA membership then the remaining in plastic. Another option is to have a non-member division. Either way, I want a fair shot to win my division.

Am I completely off-base here and missing the point?

There are a couple of things TDs can do to discourage bagging.

a) limit lower divisions to members only. While this gets rid of the bagging problem, first time players may be stuck playing somewhere where the really don't belong.

b) If flat entry fees are used (i.e. the same cost for AM1 as AM3), then a TD could tell non-members that they are bumped based on their first round performance. This still doesn't completely deter baggers and payouts cannot be determined until after that.

c) Have non-members sponsored by members. If a member vouches for a players abilities let them play where recommended, otherwise have them play in a higher division.

d) Keep track of non-members local performance and slot them appropriately. This is not trivial.

e) Restrict non-members to trophy only in the lower divisions. This is the simplest to implement with the least amount of fallout.

It is really up to the TD as to how they want to address the problem, and then the local community to make it work.

At our last tournament we only had one unknown bagger and one that should have been caught, but was missed at the registration table.

TDs can prevent this. Nonmembers have no rights to play in any division. It's up to the TDs to only offer Advanced or Open to some nonmembers who are obviously not tournament newbies.

TDs can prevent this. Nonmembers have no rights to play in any division. It's up to the TDs to only offer Advanced or Open to some nonmembers who are obviously not tournament newbies.



So am I misunderstanding the Competition Manual in section 2 2.1 J. Where it states all Bump rules are invalid. ? I agree with you Chuck just want to make sure we don't get it wrong.

This is why I'm in favor of non-members having to forfeit all prizes if they cash. If they want a trophy, or plastic or even basket then they should have joined. This will deter them from knowingly bagging, and possibly joining the PDGA if they know they can win alot of merch, esp. baskets.

Bump rules are invalid for PDGA members. PDGA members have a rating which indicates which divisions they are eligible for. Non-members have no rating to justify inclusion in any division.

This is why I'm in favor of non-members having to forfeit all prizes if they cash. If they want a trophy, or plastic or even basket then they should have joined. This will deter them from knowingly bagging, and possibly joining the PDGA if they know they can win alot of merch, esp. baskets.



So you are saying that a non-member pays full fee, pays $10 to the PDGA, and they cannot win anything at all? Huh? That makes no sense. All that money they forked over just for the right to be on the course. Wow! That's an expensive greens fee.

Just me, but has anyone looked at the number of non-member that play Rec and Int? It is a large number and to now tell all non-members that they cannot cash or cannot play in a lower tier division, is hurting many because of a few abusing the situation. Most, not all , but most beginning players start as rec players, get a taste for tournaments, see the benefit to becoming a PDGA member, joining and moving up the preferred manner, through the use of ratings. In the past there were no ratings and you moved up based on skill and peer pressure. It also had it problems, many the same as the one being discussed here. Also I don't see where moving players based on first round performance would not simply convinces players to play under their ability the first round and would not work in a large event where rec and int play different courses from Adv and Open.

As a TD I know quite a few of the local players and if it appears to me they are not playing the right level, I tell them that they have a choice of moving or having their money refunded. I have only had to do that once. As a player, if you know someone is playing below their level, let the TD know. I have done that before as well and the player was asked to move to an appropriate division.

I would strongly suggest not reacting to one or two players abusing the system and hurting 10 or 20 players who are not.

Let the TD sort it out....with pressure from his regular customers, the PDGA members, to address any such problems.

This issue has been discussed before and clearly varies by region. Here it's not a problem at all. Virtually all the non-PDGA members we see are newcomers, casual players who have been encouraged to try out the tournament experience. Receiving their winnings encourages them to play more tournaments, and join the PDGA to avoid the $10 fee.

On the other hand, there are regions where only a small percentage of players are PDGA members. The $10 fee is hard enough---were TDs to charge the $10 fee AND not issue rewards to the majority of the field, who would come?

TDs can prevent this. Nonmembers have no rights to play in any division. It's up to the TDs to only offer Advanced or Open to some nonmembers who are obviously not tournament newbies.




This is EXACTLY what I have been trying to tell people FOREVER.

Typically a TD knows his locals well enough to place them in the division that they BELONG. Just because they are a non-member doesnt automatically give them the right to "Sand-Bag".

This could ALL change in the near future, or so I hear... ;)
The problem would be solved FOREVER /msgboard/images/graemlins/ooo.gif
:D

This could ALL change in the near future, or so I hear... ;)
The problem would be solved FOREVER /msgboard/images/graemlins/ooo.gif
:D



Sounds interesting.....any details?

As a TD that runs events in several areas, it is sometimes hard to 'know' the non-PDGA folks.

We have our own plan to cut down on non-member sandbaggers for next year, but I'd love to hear what you've heard :D

in divisions lower than advanced, I like the idea of awarding a PDGA membership as part of the pay out to non members, particularly with payout > than $50

afterall, it is a PDGA sanctioned tournament and it can reward up and coming players with the chance to see what the member benefits really do for them

what would be the downside or potential fall out of doing this?

in divisions lower than advanced, I like the idea of awarding a PDGA membership as part of the pay out to non members, particularly with payout > than $50


This idea has been around for over 15 years. The problem is the PDGA doesn't get enough revenue as it is to do all of the things that members want or expect to be done. As such, they can't afford to provide discounted memberships to TDs to use as prizes. A few TDs have done memberships as prizes but they take a financial hit compared to buying wholesale merch and being able to use that difference from retail to cover expenses or add to payout.

This is why I'm in favor of non-members having to forfeit all prizes if they cash. If they want a trophy, or plastic or even basket then they should have joined. This will deter them from knowingly bagging, and possibly joining the PDGA if they know they can win alot of merch, esp. baskets.



So you are saying that a non-member pays full fee, pays $10 to the PDGA, and they cannot win anything at all? Huh? That makes no sense. All that money they forked over just for the right to be on the course. Wow! That's an expensive greens fee.



It's simple reinforcement. If you want to be rewarded for your hard work, then join the PDGA and reap the benefits of your labor. It's a win-win situation for the player and the PDGA as the player is finally allowed to take home his prizes, and the PDGA gains a new member and with our status at the moment every new member, even if its just the one is just as important as the next.

It may seem extreme but I feel it will work, or the PDGA makes it mandatory for all non-members to play Advanced. If the PDGA enforced non-members to play Adv. then I would be in support of them receiving merchandise, but it's not fair to those real Rec's and Int's who pay their dues, work their butts off, and see everything taken away from them by non-member baggers who purposefully cheat the system.

In Minnesota, the Trophy Only entry fee is about 1/3 of the full entry (excluding fees). It wouldn't be fair to charge a full entry fee to nonmembers and still exclude them from prizes. However, many nonmembers might be fine paying the much lower entry fee and playing for trophy only.

In fact, the TD discussing this proposition with the nonmember will likely indicate a potential bagger. A true newbie nonmember won't know any different and be fine with whatever the TD tells them and likely appreciate the lower fee for Trophy Only in Rec or full price in Advanced. If the player objects, they obviously have some knowledge about events and are not a newbie which perhaps would raise the flag of suspicion for the TD. Offering them Advanced at full price to play for the prizes they apparently were trying to win would likely be the best call.

In Minnesota, the Trophy Only entry fee is about 1/3 of the full entry (excluding fees). It wouldn't be fair to charge a full entry fee to nonmembers and still exclude them from prizes. However, many nonmembers might be fine paying the much lower entry fee and playing for trophy only.

In fact, the TD discussing this proposition with the nonmember will likely indicate a potential bagger. A true newbie nonmember won't know any different and be fine with whatever the TD tells them and likely appreciate the lower fee for Trophy Only in Rec or full price in Advanced. If the player objects, they obviously have some knowledge about events and are not a newbie which perhaps would raise the flag of suspicion for the TD. Offering them Advanced at full price to play for the prizes they apparently were trying to win would likely be the best call.



I guess I could agree with that. Well, I'll change my position then to two options for non-members...

1. Trophy only
2. Must play advanced, but will win merch.

So, the course locals who you know have no business playing Advanced, let alone Intermediate, you are just going to take their money and let them get destroyed making sure that they will never come and play a PDGA tournament again?

BRILLIANT! That is for sure the way to grow the membership of the organization and the sport as a whole.

OR...

As the TD you could do some work and try to find the division that is most appropriate for them or even have them bag on you one time with the thought of not letting it happen again since you have evidence for what division they should be playing.

in divisions lower than advanced, I like the idea of awarding a PDGA membership as part of the pay out to non members, particularly with payout > than $50

afterall, it is a PDGA sanctioned tournament and it can reward up and coming players with the chance to see what the member benefits really do for them

what would be the downside or potential fall out of doing this?



You mean besides having people throw a fit saying that you are treating them different because they are not a member of the PDGA? I guess none...

in divisions lower than advanced, I like the idea of awarding a PDGA membership as part of the pay out to non members, particularly with payout > than $50


This idea has been around for over 15 years. The problem is the PDGA doesn't get enough revenue as it is to do all of the things that members want or expect to be done. As such, they can't afford to provide discounted memberships to TDs to use as prizes. A few TDs have done memberships as prizes but they take a financial hit compared to buying wholesale merch and being able to use that difference from retail to cover expenses or add to payout.



there will be plenty of "members" to cover the expenses - so the little bit of money the TD has to use helping the PDGA get a new member I would think can justify not adding to the payout - were not talking new membership for every non member there, just the ones who win or come close to winning their division, which are the ones most likely to enjoy the benefits of being a PDGA member

you've already got the $10 non member fee that you can also use, that they have already paid

I'm not saying it's a bad idea and some TDs have done it. Just indicating why the practice isn't more widespread. We've done something like that for our yearend awards in Minnesota for quite a while where MFA renewals for the next year were part of the prizes in November.

in divisions lower than advanced, I like the idea of awarding a PDGA membership as part of the pay out to non members, particularly with payout > than $50

afterall, it is a PDGA sanctioned tournament and it can reward up and coming players with the chance to see what the member benefits really do for them

what would be the downside or potential fall out of doing this?



You mean besides having people throw a fit saying that you are treating them different because they are not a member of the PDGA? I guess none...



it was just an idea, with a question asking for people's opinions on why it wouldn't work - I'm smart enough to realize the idea has probably been thought of before, but have never heard the reasons against it

but thanks for the very sharp tone used in your post - at least the way I interpeted your wording

It was supposed to be more of a Friday afternoon sarcastic tone, no sharpness was meant.

It is not something that I have ever thought of doing but, more of in the small number of events that I have personally run I can see the complaints forming in my mind if you were to do something like that. ;)

in divisions lower than advanced, I like the idea of awarding a PDGA membership as part of the pay out to non members, particularly with payout > than $50

afterall, it is a PDGA sanctioned tournament and it can reward up and coming players with the chance to see what the member benefits really do for them

what would be the downside or potential fall out of doing this?



You mean besides having people throw a fit saying that you are treating them different because they are not a member of the PDGA? I guess none...



Not really, in order to qualify for intermediate or recreational (or novice) divisions, all members must qualify with an appropriate rating. If they do not have a rating, they do not qualify. Everyone plays by the same rules.

in divisions lower than advanced, I like the idea of awarding a PDGA membership as part of the pay out to non members, particularly with payout > than $50


This idea has been around for over 15 years. The problem is the PDGA doesn't get enough revenue as it is to do all of the things that members want or expect to be done. As such, they can't afford to provide discounted memberships to TDs to use as prizes. A few TDs have done memberships as prizes but they take a financial hit compared to buying wholesale merch and being able to use that difference from retail to cover expenses or add to payout.



An easy way to solve this problem is to offer gift cert to non-members for use from the PDGA. If a nonmember would have won $12 in merch, the give them a $12 gift cert to the PDGA that they could use towards a membership.

I understand that there are non-member baggers out there, however several of the suggestions given here result in the same thing, you are punishing many for the faults of a few. I can remember my first tournament very well. It was a great experiance that I have never forgotten, now if you had told me that I had to be a PDGA member to play with people of my skill group I would not have played the event, probably would have continued to just throw a disc on the weekends and never become a PDGA member. In my location there is one torunament a year that is sanctioned. At that event I draw quite a few non-PDGA members that is made up of college students, rec players and club members, etc. This is the ONLY tornament they will play all year long. I have already heard several of these players say they are not sure about playing due to the $10 non member fee. I have talked up the PDGA and discussed the benefits to the players, but let us be frank, for a starting player those benefits don't look that strong. If I as a TD forced them to join the PDGA to play in a Rec/Int group, I would loose them and would probably opt to go to non sanctioned instead.

On the other hand, if I as a TD catch a non-member player playing in a division that is below his level I will tell him to move up. If he chooses not to then I only loose one player.

An easy way to solve this problem is to offer gift cert to non-members for use from the PDGA. If a nonmember would have won $12 in merch, the give them a $12 gift cert to the PDGA that they could use towards a membership.



While this does seem an easy solution, the real issue is that when the TD gives $12 in funny money, the player trades that funny money for a $12 disc which the TD had paid $8 for, allowing the TD to do things like pay expenses and hopefully make a bit of profit. This $4 difference is part of what keeps the TD coming back to run the next tournament. If the TD instead gives a $12 off for PDGA membership, who pays that missing $4? A TD is not likely to TD cover that cost out of his pocket. Another post has already covered why PDGA doesn't offer discounted memberships.

Long story short: TD's can make a bit off of funny money, whereas offering a membership as prize hits the bottom line just as if they'd paid out in cash.

In my first year of tournament play, I've noticed non-members placing high and winning in the Rec division. By not having a rating, players can win Rec and continue to play Rec since there is not a rating to push them up to Intermediate.

Was it that person's 1st event as well? If the person is repetitively winning Rec then they should move up. It is the TD's responsibility to ensure that players are in the correct divisions. Inform the TD about a person's previous performance (i.e. he won the last 3 tournaments by multiple strokes in MA3) if it really bothers you.

BTW, payout in MA3 and MA2 is very even (i.e. the differences in payout per place is very small) so having a few baggers in those divisions should minimally impact your payout. If you want to beat them, practice and get better.

I looked at the poster's stats. The stats do not bear out his perceptions. At most of his tournaments his division was won by a member with a rating. On the rare occasion that his division was won by a non-member, or where he was beaten by non-members, the non-member beat a member with a rating by a throw or two.

In areas where the players still mostly ignore ratings as a tool for divisional placement, the perception of sandbagging is far greater than the reality. It's pretty easy to find tournaments where there are 20 players in intermediate and 18 of them are recreational rated. If they lose by seven throws to the two intermediates, that's their choice for playing up.

Perhaps the PDGA should send out temp cards to non-members with their current ratings and after they play 5 tournaments since they are paying $50 to PDGA to give them a full membership and track them.