bazkitcase5
Oct 14 2008, 02:11 PM
I know there is a 2 stroke penalty for not turning in the scorecard within the allotted time, but what if the scorecard somehow gets lost? Is there an official rule or is it merely up to the TD? If it is up to the TD and any TDs read this question, what have you done in this situation (or if it has yet to happen, what would you do)?

if a penalty is involved or even a DQ, why should the rest of the group suffer? yes you can always follow them back to tournament central, but what if that is 3 miles away and everybody drove to the course?

the rule states the guy at the top of the card is responsible for it, but what exactly is he responsible for? afterall, the entire group gets stroked if it is turned in late, so sounds like the entire group is responsible...

sometimes people carry unofficial scorecards, so if the above scenario happened, would the group be allowed to use this card if the rest of the group agreed that it was correct?

or to add another kink, say tournament central is 3 miles away and I can't follow the guy turning in the card, but I have my unofficial card... and after the allotted time for turning the card in is almost up, to prevent getting a 2 stroke penalty, me and the rest of my group (aside from the idiot not doing his job) would like to use this card instead? would this be allowed? thoughts?

tdwriter
Oct 14 2008, 03:31 PM
I wish I had my book handy or the online version was up.

What about it folks? Any opinions or interpretations?

I disagree with disqualifying and ENTIRE group for one person's mistake.

Then again, everyone on the card should make sure that the card is handed in on time.

As far as distances to HQ, sometimes the distance can be much more than three miles. Think Bowling Green, bazkit. I know where you're coming from, but everyone needed to go to the HQ to eat lunch, check the board for the next round, etc.

About an "unofficial card" turned in late? Not sure, but it would still be late.

rWc3523

cgkdisc
Oct 14 2008, 04:15 PM
Here's your alternate online rulebook:
www.wfdf.org/index.php?page=rules/wfdf_disc_golf_rules.htm (http://www.wfdf.org/index.php?page=rules/wfdf_disc_golf_rules.htm)

If the scorecard is lost, the group (not one player) may recreate the scores on another card and turn it in without penalty as long as it's within the 25-min time limit.

bazkitcase5
Oct 14 2008, 04:53 PM
russ, at bowling green you turned in the scorecard before you left the course, so no need to travel anywhere with the scorecard

and I didn't say anything about the unofficial scorecard being turned in late - I said if you have an unofficial scorecard and after say, 20 minutes, you realize you and your group is about to get 2 strokes because the guy on the top of the card didn't do his job and turn the card in right away - if you and the rest of the group agree that the unofficial card is right, would you be allowed to turn that card in, before time is up, to prevent taking the penalty, thats not your fault to begin with? (this is with the assumption that you can't so easily follow the guy back to HQs)

maybe there should be a little more excessive penalty to make sure the guy responsible for the card does his job?

cgkdisc
Oct 14 2008, 05:03 PM
If it's not the official scorecard, then an unofficial card recreated by the rest of the group cannot be turned in if the person with the official card is not part of that recreation. The whole group gets the penalty per the rules. That's why you follow the card in regardless whether you have concern about the person turning it in on time.

baldguy
Oct 14 2008, 05:26 PM
btw - what defines the end of a round for the purposes of the 25-minute rule? Is it when the group completes the last hole, or when the last group in the pool completes the last round?

cgkdisc
Oct 14 2008, 05:58 PM
It's typically been 25 minutes after the last group has played their hole. That brings up an interesting issue when a round is a stagger start. Technically, the first group to finish could wait several hours before turning in their scorecard...

baldguy
Oct 14 2008, 06:44 PM
good point. I was more concerned with a shotgun start... methinks this should be defined somewhere. I suppose "25 minutes from when the group completes its round" would apply to more situations

cgkdisc
Oct 14 2008, 06:49 PM
I was a Co-TD at an event where a player had forgotten to drop off the card and had driven home about 20 minutes from the course to take a shower. In the shower he realized he had forgotten to drop off the card and drove back to the course like a madman. Fortunately for his group, he was driving back into the parking lot as the last group of women were walking to HQ to drop off their card. No penalty (but we wish he would have put his clothes on first :eek:).

Hilltopper
Oct 14 2008, 09:25 PM
If it's not the official scorecard, then an unofficial card recreated by the rest of the group cannot be turned in if the person with the official card is not part of that recreation. The whole group gets the penalty per the rules. That's why you follow the card in regardless whether you have concern about the person turning it in on time.



How can you "recreate" a scorecard unless you have had someone else keep a second card? Do you think everyone on a card can accurately remember every score on every hole and what the other 3 people did as well? Even if everyone remembers the overall scores, the hole scores would most likely be wrong. Wouldn't the group then be turning in an incorrect scorecard?

Not meaning to be smart, but I'ld just like to know.

Josh

cgkdisc
Oct 14 2008, 09:33 PM
Everyone in the group has to agree that the replacement scorecard is accurate or it's not valid. If any member of the group isn't satisfied then the only option is probably DQ the whole group unless the TD feels someone is subverting the process. I've never a seen a group in the few times I've seen this occur not be able to come up with a scorecard they agreed upon. It's really no different from the truthfulness we expect when scores are taken hole-by-hole.

baldguy
Oct 15 2008, 05:08 PM
I was once made example of. early on in my DG career (when the great Mr. Himing was still stateside), I neglected to turn in a card on time. I had played the Cameron East course (Waco, TX - this was its first year in the ground) and went to the car to meet the people I was carpooling with. I had my card since I had to go over to the old Cameron course and drop those guys off anyway. I checked my voicemail and discovered that my hotel had kicked my significant other out of the room, in spite of the late checkout I had supposedly secured. I hurried through the motions of dropping them off at the course then rushed to the hotel to get my better half, then off to the restaurant we went... only to sit down and find the scorecard still in my pocket. I left her at the restaurant (5 mins from the course) and sped back to the old course. I managed to turn in the card more than an hour before round 2's scheduled teeoff... and only 5 minutes after the last ladies' card came in... but my whole card received a 2 stroke penalty.

because of this incident, I am now the best person to leave the card(s) with. I'll never forget again :)

tdwriter
Oct 16 2008, 10:42 PM
Good one Baldguy. I've probably had scorecard issues in my 24 years of DG. Showing up to the wrong course and being penalized when I arrived at the correct course taught me to pay attention and always ask the TD when the next round starts. :p rWc3523

pterodactyl
Oct 19 2008, 10:31 PM
always ask the TD when the next round starts. :p rWc3523



No TD should have to answer that redundant question. The TD should have a sign that states the time of the next round and just point to it while he's adding score cards, doing the payout, and organizing the volunteers.

Alacrity
Oct 20 2008, 09:42 AM
always ask the TD when the next round starts. :p rWc3523



No TD should have to answer that redundant question. The TD should have a sign that states the time of the next round and just point to it while he's adding score cards, doing the payout, and organizing the volunteers.



While no TD should have to answer that question, even if it is posted any TD will tell you they get asked multiple times. Since Chris Himing was mentioned earlier, I remember one time I was helping him on one of his events and the time for the next round was clearly posted. As we sat there over 10 people came up and asked when the next round started. The first person to ask we pointed at the sign at the same time. Chris laughed and said in his Australian accent "I see you have TD'd before"

gang4010
Oct 20 2008, 10:00 AM
And then there's the Kirk Yoo/Spencer Thurman rule - Ask a question that is answered by the program or is clearly posted - costs you a dollar!

dobbins66
Nov 12 2008, 12:51 PM
I witnessed (but was not part of) a missing scorecard scenario in an Ice Bowl in Cincinnati last year. The lead group of intermediate completed their round at the course and were beside the truck where the TD was collecting scorecards. One guy took the card to give it to the TD and the others left to go to the place where awards were being presented. It just so happened that the guy dropping off the card got distracted or something and never turned it in. He had also apparently collapsed in the last round and finished out of cash so he did not appear at the awards site. We all arrived at the awards site when someone got a call from the TD looking for the lead Intermediate Card. Two of the top 3 were friends of mine that I played with regularly and said the other guy was in line to drop off the card. Bottom line was that since the time had passed and all players could not be accounted for to create a card the lead group went to last group. TD had no other choice. These guys will now never forget a card or leave without seeing it in the TD hands. They are also used as an example at the TD meeting prior to every local tourney so they are not allowed to forget the incident. I always go with the guy turning in the card or do it myself.

stack
Nov 12 2008, 02:17 PM
good to learn from others examples/mistakes...

that being said... i've had a time when I turned in the card and the TD denied it saying they had all the cards and ours was not there.

I was rather new to DG @ the time and couldn't figure out why all the guys on my card were starting to get so upset with me... after the TD had basically said we would be DQd and the guys were about the hang me... one of the TD helpers shouted that they had found it.. it got 'mixed up' with other papers.