At a recent tournament, I was asked for a ruling and couldn't come up with an answer I was 100% sure of. It seems simple, but the rulebook isn't as precise as I'd like in this case.

The situation was that a player got frustrated with a shot and threw a disc at the ground, which turned into a roller, going several meters. This obviously falls under the strict definition of a "practice throw", but how is it penalized?

I had always been told that the throw itself counted and there was a penalty on top of that, so essentially a two-stroke affair. I checked the rulebook and with the assistance of some players standing nearby I was no longer so sure of that and deferred to the vast seniority of one gnduke who was also standing nearby. Gary ruled that it was a one-stroke penalty and while I'm sure he's correct... am I the only one who thought that the throw itself should count as a stroke and then incur an additional penalty?

One throw penalty for practice throw.

Perhaps an additional warning for courtesy depending on how "frustrated" the player may have been (i.e. if the disc slam was accompanied by a loud curse/bag kick/or other unsportsmanlike conduct) - but no automatic second stroke.

so, again... am I the only one with this misconception or is it common?

what about if the player throws an extra shot/s on purpose, and has no problem taking a stroke each time they do it?

what about if the player throws an extra shot/s on purpose, and has no problem taking a stroke each time they do it?



The strokes add up and their score quickly goes through the roof. And if you feel it is a courtesy violation you can add some more strokes to their score.

what about if the player throws an extra shot/s on purpose, and has no problem taking a stroke each time they do it?



The strokes add up and their score quickly goes through the roof. And if you feel it is a courtesy violation you can add some more strokes to their score.



And possibly get them DQ'ed after the round for the repeated violations, if you've got a TD who sees it as deliberate breaking of the rules (ie, cheating). So their score counts against their rating and they get to go home early.

not to turn this into a whole giant argument, but from your description, there may have been a courtesy warning with no stroke penalty.

you said he threw it at the ground. was he just trying to get it into or at his bag, or was he actually using a throwing motion, and trying to get another throw in. what im getting at is, that just because it rolled far enough to be a practice throw, if he didnt intend to 'throw it' its not a practice throw i think. its the exact same situation as if he would have taken his hat and thrown it at the ground, and it rolled several meters away. you wouldnt give him a practice throw for it, just a courtesy violation. just because it happened to be a disc, doesnt mean that any motion with it is automatically a 'throw'

that being said, im not defending anyone who behaves in this manor and he should be penalized, but i dont think in the hypothetical situation that i mentioned, he should be cited for the 'practice throw' ruling. it doesnt apply in my opinion.

i know the rule says 'intentional or unintentional' , but also i know this has been discussed heavily with another hypothetical being, 'what if i drop my bag and the discs all roll 3 meters?' i think it has to do with intention. if his disc went 2 meters because he meant to throw it, practice throw. if it went two meters because he tried to slam it in his bag, and rolled 2 meters, i think thats courtesy violation.

The difference is the projection of a bag versus the projection of a disc. There is no rule against projecting a bag (unless done is a discourteous manner).

if your only hangup on that situation is the bag, then imagine that i was holding 3 discs deciding which to throw, and i stumble and toss all three so i can catch myself with my hands, and they all roll down a hill...

they are discs, and they did go the specified distance, and it was unintentional. which are the stipulations for practice throw. yet, i dont think this person should be penalized, they werent defying any other rules, and werent trying to get an advantage by throwing extra discs.

how do you know?

j/k, but still...

here's a question about 'practice throws'... what if someone has something that isnt a disc and decides to throw it up against a tree or wall to stay loose between holes... is that a practice throw if it isn't a disc?

piece of foam w/ a little weight to it or something like that

if your only hangup on that situation is the bag, then imagine that i was holding 3 discs deciding which to throw, and i stumble and toss all three so i can catch myself with my hands, and they all roll down a hill...

they are discs, and they did go the specified distance, and it was unintentional. which are the stipulations for practice throw. yet, i dont think this person should be penalized, they werent defying any other rules, and werent trying to get an advantage by throwing extra discs.



My argument would still be that the person was not projecting a disc (or discs), they were attempting to prevent a dangerous fall.

Now if the same person chose one of the three, and tossed the other two aside and one rolled down the hill that would be a penalty. If both rolled down the hill, it would still be a single act of projection and only one penalty.

here's a question about 'practice throws'... what if someone has something that isnt a disc and decides to throw it up against a tree or wall to stay loose between holes... is that a practice throw if it isn't a disc?

piece of foam w/ a little weight to it or something like that



No. A practice throw requires a disc, and I would argue that it requires a disc legal for play. Throwing other things could easily cause distractions and bring courtesy violations.

Going through the motions with a towel would probably be better, and you don't have to go and pick up the towel after each motion.

my problem is that the rules should take into account whether or not the person was trying to, or could have gained an advantage from the action. so i could take the wheel, or next year, the turbo putt, or the current ace race disc and throw it back and fourth with another member in my group, out of the way and without being a distraction, and its not a penalty?

sticking to the written rules is one thing, but using common sense is unfortunately sometimes another.

when a person tosses a disc down by their bag, and it rolls the extra meter to qualify it for a practice throw, that person gained no advantage, and was not trying to gain an advantage.

i do agree that the person in the original post should have been penalized for his actions, but the actions that required penalty were not that he was 'practicing throwing' or gaining any advantage. i also dont think that we can just take rules and apply them wherever we want just because a person is being a jerk, or because we want to. i think the 'practice throw' penalty should be applied only to 'practice throws' where someone is gaining or possibly gaining and advantage, not where the movement of the disc happens to satisfy the distance required for it to be seen as a practice throw. that is not what the rule was written for, and thus in my opinion, not what it should be used for.

i agree it would be nice to have a way to tell if its an accident or not (and maybe that comes from the card not calling something like falling over and a disc rolling away)...

but to clear it up... it doesn't say 'pdga approved disc' for practice throws... it just says 'disc' so playing catch w/ a non-pdga approved disc would/should count as a practice throw.

what is a disc according to the rules is what I would like to know though.

PRACTICE THROW
PDGA DEFINITION FROM RULEBOOK
Practice Throw: During a round, the projection of a disc of a distance greater than two meters, or of any distance toward a target, intentional or not, which does not change the player�s lie, either because it did not occur from the teeing area or the lie, or because the player had already thrown competitively from the teeing area or the lie. Throws that are re-thrown in accordance with the rules are not practice throws. Provisional throws made pursuant to 803.01 C and 803.01 D (3) are not practice throws. A player shall receive a penalty for a practice throw in accordance with sections 803.01 B or 804.02 A (2).

803.01B
B. Practice Throws. A player who throws a practice throw or an extra throw with any disc any time after the start of his or her round and prior to his or her finishing the last hole of the round (except for throws that must be re-thrown in accordance with the rules, provisional throws made pursuant to 803.01 C and 803.01 D (3), or throws during a suspension or postponement of play) shall receive one penalty throw. The practice throw or extra throw must be observed by any two players or an official.

I love the way the author wrote five or six rules into the definition. It is such a lawyerly way of writing. I could not have written that better, if I were trying to bury the rules in the glossary.

exactly!

although the still dont truly say what they mean by 'disc'... kinda funny too considering they define just about everything else in section 800!

Approximate Lie
Away Player
Casual Water
Completion of a Round
Director
Disc Entrapment Device
Drop Zone
Fairway
Hole
Holed-Out
Lie
Line of Play
Mandatory
Marker
Marker Disc
Mini
Mini Marker Disc
Obstacle
Official
Out-of-Bounds
Par
Penalty Throw
Players� Meeting
Playing Surface
Practice Throw
Provisional
Provisional Throw
Putt
Putt (falling) � Falling Putt:
Relief
Supporting Point
Teeing Area
Throw
Thrower
Two meter rule
Unplayable Lie
Warning

although they still dont truly say what they mean by 'disc'... kinda funny too considering they define just about everything else in section 800!



Section 802.01 and 805 covers discs and 802.02 covers minis although the Definition for a mini marker disc refers to 802.03 instead. Small reference error there :o

This is a quote from when Pat was on the BOD.


the TSC ruled that because the Wheel had no upper/dorsal section (the flight plane is precisely in the middle, that is[sic] was not a disc.

therefore, it is just a plastic artifact. throwing it during the round is no more problematic than throwing a set of keys to a buddy.

chuck, the statement The Wheel is in the subset that includes all discs, just not PDGA Approved discs for competition. is not true. the tsc said quite clearly that the Wheel is not a disc.

I would still stick with a legal disc for a practice throw, there are already rules to cover throwing discs that are not legal for play.

802.01 E. A player who carries an illegal disc during play shall receive two penalty throws, without a warning, if observed by two or more players of the group or an official. A player who repeatedly throws an illegal disc during the round may be subject to disqualification in accordance with 804.05 A (3).

First of all, the wheel, regardless of the comment it is "not a disc" will be considered an illegal disc by about 99% of TD's and if repeatedly thrown for practice could result in DQ. In addition to that, there will by a 1 stroke penality for the practice. Note that in the definition of practice throw, it does not say a legal disc, it just says disc. If you want to roll a towel into a ball and practice with it, I don't think any TD would call the towel a disc.

802.01 E. A player who carries an illegal disc during play shall receive two penalty throws, without a warning, if observed by two or more players of the group or an official. A player who repeatedly throws an illegal disc during the round may be subject to disqualification in accordance with 804.05 A (3).

First of all, the wheel, regardless of the comment it is "not a disc" will be considered an illegal disc by about 99% of TD's and if repeatedly thrown for practice could result in DQ. In addition to that, there will by a 1 stroke penality for the practice. Note that in the definition of practice throw, it does not say a legal disc, it just says disc. If you want to roll a towel into a ball and practice with it, I don't think any TD would call the towel a disc.



you're missing the point... by deeming the wheel to not technically be a disc then it can't be considered an illegal disc any more so than calling a football an illegal disc using the rules currently in place.

the rules need to define what a disc is first... then a lot of confusion could be alleviated... currently I could cut out a circle of wood, carpet, foam, whatever and carry it with me to sit on, kneel on, throw up against a tree to stay loose if theres a backup, whatever and I there's nothing specifically that says I can't do that.

do i think it would be right... no... but according to the rules as currently written I could carry a football, wheel, or small carpet square (or circle) and throw it to my hearts content during the round as long as i'm not distracting anyone.

I understand what you are saying, you didn't catch what I said "99% of TD's". Regardless of whether it qualifies as a disc per se, most TD's, would consider it a disc for this ruling. Now a player could probably argue his/her way out of a DQ, but a 2 stroke penality would probably be assessed and possilbe 1 stroke for every throw.

Does a mini marker disc qualify as a "disc" as used in 803.1B? In other words, can you be penalized for a practice throw if you throw a mini marker more than 2 meters during a round?

The Mini Marker Disc definition in 800 calls it a disc. Rule 801.1F starts "All discs used in play, except mini marker discs,...", which seems to imply a mini is a disc used in play.

However 801.01B lists "throwing minis" as an example of a discourteous action.

Courtesy violation or practice throw?

mini football being added to the bag tonight :) no need to argue about is it or isnt it a disc & so long as were courteous where would the problem be? true you could wave your towel around to stay warm but really... where's the fun in that?some people seem to have forgotten why we play this game... to have fun. that should be the first rule... it's a game, play it to have fun.

Does a mini marker disc qualify as a "disc" as used in 803.1B? In other words, can you be penalized for a practice throw if you throw a mini marker more than 2 meters during a round?

The Mini Marker Disc definition in 800 calls it a disc. Rule 801.1F starts "All discs used in play, except mini marker discs,...", which seems to imply a mini is a disc used in play.

However 801.01B lists "throwing minis" as an example of a discourteous action.

Courtesy violation or practice throw?




Seriously, this came into effect this past weekend and was a matter of first or second. What is the official call? If someone whips their mini in anger, is it considered a practice throw or a courtesy violation with a warning?

If it's that important, this is not the place to get the answer. Contact PDGA HQ

If it's that important, this is not the place to get the answer. Contact PDGA HQ



By that response, I'm guessing you do not know the answer?

In any case, it is a courtesy violation if thrown in anger.

You could argue for a practice throw by using a wide definition of disc, but I doubt it would be upheld by the TD.

But that is my opinion and how I would rule if I were asked to make a ruling. The official answer must come from the tour manager and the Rules committee.

If it's that important, this is not the place to get the answer. Contact PDGA HQ



By that response, I'm guessing you do not know the answer?



By that response its more along the line of, if its life or death, then contact the authorities, not a bunch of folks posting on a message board...

I'd say

801 Conduct of Players

* 801.01 Courtesy:
o A. Players should not throw until they are certain that the thrown disc will not distract another player or potentially injure anyone present. Players should watch the other members of their group throw in order to aid in locating errant throws and to ensure compliance with the rules.
o B. Players should take care not to produce any distracting noises or any potential visual distractions for other players who are throwing. Examples of discourteous actions are: shouting, cursing, freestyling, slapping course equipment, throwing out of turn, throwing or kicking golf bags, throwing minis and advancing on the fairway beyond the away player. Shouting at an appropriate time to warn someone in danger of being struck by a disc is not a violation of courtesy.

So, since their is a rule that tells you specifically that it is a courtesy violation to throw a mini, then that specific rule should supersede the more general one of throwing any kind of disc.

But if you need absolute proof, contact PDGA headquarters... not some bunch of guys on a message board.

[
By that response its more along the line of, if its life or death, then contact the authorities, not a bunch of folks posting on a message board...

I'd say

801 Conduct of Players

* 801.01 Courtesy:
o A. Players should not throw until they are certain that the thrown disc will not distract another player or potentially injure anyone present. Players should watch the other members of their group throw in order to aid in locating errant throws and to ensure compliance with the rules.
o B. Players should take care not to produce any distracting noises or any potential visual distractions for other players who are throwing. Examples of discourteous actions are: shouting, cursing, freestyling, slapping course equipment, throwing out of turn, throwing or kicking golf bags, throwing minis and advancing on the fairway beyond the away player. Shouting at an appropriate time to warn someone in danger of being struck by a disc is not a violation of courtesy.

So, since their is a rule that tells you specifically that it is a courtesy violation to throw a mini, then that specific rule should supersede the more general one of throwing any kind of disc.

But if you need absolute proof, contact PDGA headquarters... not some bunch of guys on a message board.



So you're saying that no one who reads this message board knows the true answer to my question? I believe that many TD's read this message board and this question (apparently) has come up before and also has never properly been answered. The real glitch in the rulebook is the definition of "disc". Is a mini considered a disc as mentioned in rule blah blah blah that states that any disc thrown after the two minute warning will result in a penalty stroke?

The difference is that just throwing a mini in any direction for any distance could be a courtesy violation if called. However, specifically throwing a disc (mini) more than 2m or any distance toward the target could specifically be called a Practice Throw in the Definitions which overrides the courtesy call. But Gentry or RC needs to make the ruling.

Then there is the argument of "the" target versus "a" target and whether anything aimed at is considered "a" target.

Throwing your mini is a Curtis "C" (my rap name) violation, plain and simple.

i'm with curtis-c.

Is a mini considered a disc as mentioned in rule blah blah blah that states that any disc thrown after the two minute warning will result in a penalty stroke?



Just to clarify it does not result in a penalty stroke, the first time is a warning. If a player is warned and then does it again it is a penalty stroke. No a mini is not a disc.