We had an incident here this wknd. where a group accidentally missed a hole, but did tell us that they didnt play it. They had already turned in their scorecards too. Now, here's the problem. There are two rules which one can look at...

801.04 B(5) Allows the players to play the hole, but with a 2 stroke penalty.

But because they turned in their scorecard we looked at 801.04 B(5E) which says that since the scorecard has been turned in they would receive a two stroke penalty.

The problem is that would simply just give every one of the players a birdie since they never actually took shots at the basket during the round. The TD, official, and myself all consulted the rule book over and over to see what to do, and decided to go with the 1st option of letting them re-tee and take a 2 stroke penalty. We did this because if they didnt then they would have gotten unfair birdies.

Now this seems like a rule that needs to be omitted or rewritten because if you can simply get a 2 stroke penalty for missing a hole after turning in the score card every player would skip the really hard holes, claim they were lacidaisical (sp) and couldnt find the hole. Now I know the rule on 801.04 B (5F) could be disqualified, but how can you truly prove they did it to cheat? Maybe they really couldnt find the hole and went about play, turn in their scorecard, and get a birdie thus giving them an unfair advantage over the competition.

I would say the players never holed out on that hole, which would bring 803.13(2) into play. That rule adds 2 penalty throws to the 'number of throws plus penalty throws already taken on the hole.' (they would need to go play the hole for that to work)

Sounds like you guys made the right call either way.

But they never played the hole in the 1st place, thus there were no strokes taken, and if they turned in their card then it gives all the players a free birdie for that particular hole.

Which is why she said "(they would need to go play the hole for that to work)"

I would assume that if they turned in their score cards with a missed hole, they most likely misadded what was written (since pretty much everyone one counts +/- and then adds that to #holes*3).

Were there scores recorded in every slot?

For example (not that this has happened before or anything :o):
If at the end of the round, it was noticed that a hole had been missed, & all the players said 'oh...yeah.....we all got par on that one'....did they fill in the missing blank?

That would make the call more complex.....for sure.

The group came up to us, and the TD's original call was par +4 for missing a hole, but that only counts if you miss holes when the round starts. But since they had played 7 previous holes we originally looked at letting them finish the hole +2 strokes. Then we looked at the rule book and on down the page it says since the score card is turned in its just a +2 penalty.

The problem isnt the situation we came across today, but the rule which basically allows players to skip holes, turn in their card and get 2 on. I believe this rule either needs to be omitted or allow for more strokes to be added, and count it as a missed hole making it par +4.

The thing is these guys skipped a hole. And then kept golfing. And turned in their scorecard. You must hole out on every hole to have a complete round. If someone fails to hole out and the scorecard is turned in he/she gets a 999 and DNF. So where does a +2 apply to people that D.id N.ot F.inish their round? Doesn't. They're already out of the tournament.

I know exactly how harsh this sounds, but the rule is there for situations that are NOT one in which the competitors didn't even finish their round, failed to hole out on all of the holes before turning in the scorecard. So there's no reason to state that that rule should be struck from the records just because YOU are trying to circumvent the rules to give them the benefit of the doubt.

Do I disagree with you giving them leeway? Not necessarily, it really is harsh. But the fact is that if you're already circumventing rules to cause the situation that makes that rule come into play, then YOU are in the wrong and NOT the rule book.

-Chris.

But the rule states that if a player doesnt finish a hole, turns in the card then there is no replay of the hole and they get a +2 penalty stroke added to the final score. There is nothing about completing the entire 18 hole course, and the rule needs to be changed or omitted because of it. There was no circimvention on the rules by mine, the TD or officials part because we all had 3 different rules we looked at, each saying what to do when a player misses a hole, so if anything its the PDGA's fault for not being clear on what to do.

I really dont think you understand what I'm saying.

803.13 Holing Out
A. A player who fails to play any hole
or fails to hole out on any hole during
the round may be disqualified, at the
discretion of the director


I think you missed the fact that they should be DQ'd.

801.04 D. In instances where a misplay is discovered after the pertinent hole or holes have been completed (holed out), the misplay shall not be replayed and the player shall receive a two-throw penalty for the misplay.

801.04 E. In instances where a misplay is discovered after the player has turned in his or her scorecard, the misplay shall not be replayed and the player shall receive a two-throw penalty for the misplay.

These two rules allow the players to stay in the game without disqualification and essentially get birdies.

I think you are confused. Neither of the rules you have posted address missing a hole, just playing out of order or "misplay." That rule says that if you MISPLAY holes, as in you played 2 and 3 in reverse order, then you would get 2 strokes for each hole you MISPLAYED. Your situation is not a MISPLAY, but a failure to hole out, which as woj and krupicka have stated, clearly is a DQ situation...

I think the rules you are referring to are for misplays such as playing the holes (all 18 of them) in the wrong order or for a misplayed mandatory or OB.....

$.02

But the Non-Sequential Play rule does say skipping a hole which the group did because they couldnt find it. This is where the rules regarding DQ or stroked confused the hell out of us, and we went with the skipped a hole rule.

Were there scores recorded in every slot?

For example (not that this has happened before or anything :o):
If at the end of the round, it was noticed that a hole had been missed, & all the players said 'oh...yeah.....we all got par on that one'....did they fill in the missing blank?

That would make the call more complex.....for sure.

That happened in my group at the Michigan State Championships a few years ago. I did not realize we had skipped a hole until the night after the tournament when we were sitting around the campfire discussing how we played certain holes. That made the call a lot easier! :D

Doesn't that same rule also say:

Immediately thereafter, the player shall proceed to play the course in its proper order from the point where the misplay began.

No, it doesnt.

801.04 E. In instances where a misplay is discovered after the player has turned in his or her scorecard, the misplay shall not be replayed and the player shall receive a two-throw penalty for the misplay.

The situation isnt during the round, but after the round when the scorecard came in, and the players admitted to not playing hole 8 because they couldnt find it.

How can you replay a hole that was never played?

That's what we kept asking ourselves. We had four options presented to us.

1. DQ
2. Missed hole, par +4
3. Replay the hole, add +2 to what they get.
4. Simply give them +2 for not playing the hole.

The TD didnt want to DQ and so he originally chose Par +4, but I told the TD that the rule applies to missing holes immediately when the round starts, and he agreed, so we looked at the Non Sequential Rule and saw that they could replay the hole with +2 added to what they get. BUT the last rule said that since the card was turned in with scores recorded (adding that par +4 was put into the score) that it would simply be a +2 stroke penalty which negated the par +4 since that rule didnt apply, and gives the players a free birdie.

You keep going back to rules regarding misplay. They did not misplay, they missed a hole all together. The rules for failure to hole out seem pretty clear. If they turned in a scorecard that only had 17 holes recorded on an 18 hole course, then they obviously failed to hole out. You may have made the most fair call by letting them replay the hole, and it is always at the TD's discretion to do these things, but there is nothing wrong with the rules themselves other than being harsh...

The term misplay is not intended to mean they missed playing a hole, it means they played them out of order. I think that is where your problem is.

If you look at the Q&A you will find a section of missing scores, but that question is specifically for failing to record a score. I think that two errors occurred. The first being failing to play a hole, which closest equivalent is 802.04 with a penality of par plus 4. At this pont, the penalty has been pretty strict, but they should probably also be charged 2 strokes for turning in an incorrect card. I would say the last 2 strokes is at the TD's discretion. And last, but not least, the TD could simply dq the whole card, but I would not do so unless it appeared cheating was involved, and that does not seem to be the case.

(5) Non-Sequential Play: Skipping a hole or playing the holes in the wrong order. If the misplay is discovered after an initial throw has been made but before a subsequent throw has been made, the player shall re-tee from the correct teeing area and count the initial throw as a practice throw (one throw added to the player�s score).



this is the first 2 sentences of the non-sequential play rule, where is term "misplay" that is being discussed occurs. The rule quite clearly states in the first that it is talking about skipping a hole or playing them in the wrong order. Then the first phrase of the next is "the misplay". I think that this clearly defines misplay as either skipping holes or playing in the wrong order.

Exactly! They misplayed the hole, and since the rules state that if said person misplays a hole, and turns their card in they dont have to replay the hole, but just get a +2 penalty. This would cause everyone to cheat when they know of a hole they dont want to play because they'll all simply get a 2 instead of a 4, 5 or 6.

On the score card turned in, did they have a score for the missing hole or was that hole blank? Was the total score correct for the scores written?

btw. It is a big jump to say that this causes everyone to cheat. While I may believe in the depravity of man, a poorly written rule has no power to force people to cheat.

Okay, if they missed playing the holes, then they can choose, par + four or +2 and DQ for cheating.


Exactly! They misplayed the hole, and since the rules state that if said person misplays a hole, and turns their card in they dont have to replay the hole, but just get a +2 penalty. This would cause everyone to cheat when they know of a hole they dont want to play because they'll all simply get a 2 instead of a 4, 5 or 6.

Exactly! They misplayed the hole, and since the rules state that if said person misplays a hole, and turns their card in they dont have to replay the hole, but just get a +2 penalty. This would cause everyone to cheat when they know of a hole they dont want to play because they'll all simply get a 2 instead of a 4, 5 or 6.


No. No. No. Because the card was turned in it goes from a misplay TO BEING a failure to hole out, resulting in a DQ. You're twisting things.

Did they really add up their scores, and hand them in with only 17 holes and figuring it was no big deal and you'd just give them the score they shot?

I would give them the benefit of the doubt here. If a player couldn't find a hole, as a TD, I'd feel bad, maybe I didn't mark it well enough.

803.13 Looks pretty easy to decipher to me.

A. A player who fails to play any hole or fails to hole out on any hole during the round may be disqualified, at the discretion of the director, using the following guidelines:
(1) Holes missed due to late arrival may be scored and penalized according to section 804.02.
(2) Inadvertently failing to hole out (as determined by a majority of the group or an official) shall result in 2 penalty throws being added to the number of throws plus penalty throws already taken on the hole. The hole shall then be considered completed.
(3) Intentionally failing to hole out (emergency, injury, plane flight, etc.) constitutes withdrawal from competition. The player shall be withdrawn from competition and officially listed as �Did Not Finish� on the scorecard and in the event results.

Just because the rules can't cover every single possibility that comes up in play doesn't mean they are poorly written. If you think it was an accident, let them play the hole +2. If it was on purpose, DQ them I guess.

They did not misplay, they failed to play at all. Thus you look at 803.13 - Holing Out. It intially says DQ at the discretion of the TD, but gives guidelines for using that discretion. The options are not playing the hole because you are late to the start, inadvertently failing to hole out, and intentionally failing to hole out.

The question becomes whether they inadvertently or intentionally failed to hole out. If you went with intentional failure, then DQ. If you went with inadvertent failure, then you have a dilemma because the rule book only discusses a situation where throws have already been made on the hole. But the way its worded, it would seem okay to treat it like a late hole and put down a par plus 4 (strokes taken plus penalty) then add the 2 strokes called for in the rule.

The real problem is that there may be a course with a hard-to-find hole and perhaps no map or signage to help out, though those are only helpful if you read them.

Could someone please cite somewhere in the rulebook where it defines this as not holing out, as opposed to location where it defines it as a misplay as I cited earlier?

803.13 A
A player who fails to play any hole....

The difference IMO between misplay and failing to hole out is obvious. Failing to hole out is simply not finishing the hole when you know where the hole is. A misplay is simply an error/mistake/accident made on the part of the player. This group that had the misplay didnt skip the hole just to sjip it. They honestly couldnt find it, and told us this info. after they decided to finish the rest of the round. This is not a failure to hole out if you cant even find the hole, but constitutes a misplay by skipping the hole because you couldnt find it.

803.13 A
A player who fails to play any hole....



But if you go with 803.13 A (2) then you see that throws must have been taken in the first place.

Heres my interpretation:

MIS-played does not equal NOT played. The rules under 801.04 are referring to played holes that were done so incorrectly. You cant apply "mis-played" to a hole that wasnt played in the first place.

Once thats established, I couldn't really apply any rule under 801.04. Since they were forthright about missing (not skipping) a hole, I wouldnt DQ them. All the applicable rules for this situation say DQ is at the TD's discretion. So, I would use the Fairness rule (803.01F) and apply 804.02 (803.13) as the closest applicable rule. Par +4 for that hole for all in the group. So, they get penalized but they dont get DQ'd.

That's a tough one any way you look at it. The rules could be clearified for this kind of situation, but I dont think any rule needs to be removed.

If not the removal, then yes a clearer understanding needs to be made, and one that doesnt seem contradictory to other rules.

Another possible way to look at it could be:
803.13 (2) Holing out - 2 throw penalty
801.04 B.5 Failure to play stipulated course - 2 throw penalty
804.03 Scoring - turning in an incorrect scorecard - 2 throw penalty

Give em all 6's

Now if they came to the TD BEFORE turning in the scorecard - they could be allowed to play the hole (but not technically) +2 for the nonsequential play - tough call!!

I think if we adopted harsher rules similar to the PGA rule for scoring - we would see much fewer errors in scoring. In the PGA if your scorecard is wrong - you're done playing. It would only take once for this to happen to ANY player - and it would never happen again.

Now there seems to be too many rules dealing with the same situation and neither one can be agreed upon.

If the players realized they missed a hole prior to handing in their scorecard, then why didn't they talk to the TD before handing it in? At that point they could have just gone back and played that hole, taken a +2 for non-sequential and given us a much more boring Monday.

Exactly! They misplayed the hole, and since the rules state that if said person misplays a hole, and turns their card in they dont have to replay the hole, but just get a +2 penalty. This would cause everyone to cheat when they know of a hole they dont want to play because they'll all simply get a 2 instead of a 4, 5 or 6.


No. No. No. Because the card was turned in it goes from a misplay TO BEING a failure to hole out, resulting in a DQ. You're twisting things.



I'm dumbfounded woj. The rules could not be more plain. I am starting to belive that these people don't want to understand them...

If the players realized they missed a hole prior to handing in their scorecard, then why didn't they talk to the TD before handing it in? At that point they could have just gone back and played that hole, taken a +2 for non-sequential and given us a much more boring Monday.



This scenario happened at TX States a few years ago, & the call was to go back, play the hole, and take the 2 stroke penalty.

After reading all this, it seems the players intentionally failed to hole out that hole (they couldn't find it & decided to move on)& still turned in their cards. Now if the TD felt that the course wasn't marked well & considered the situation partly his/her fault, then it could be that TD's discretion to let them go play the hole & take the 2 stroke penalty (still a tough call to make).....but otherwise the ruling would shift to 803.13A(3), the players would DNF, and could possibly be DQ'd by the TD (another tough call to make).

The rules needed to make the call are all in order (could possibly use some detailing...but none the less address the situation(s)). It just all depends on the details of the specific situation.

Was the situation addressed AS/before the cards were being turned in? (still time to fix the problem) Had the cards been turned in for a while before it was realized by the TD the hole had been skipped? (time is up to 'fix' the situation & the players simply DNF'd).

Either way, the rules are in place to deal with it.

There should not be a situation where the cards are turned in with one hole missing. The players should bring it to the attention of the TD with card in hand, not just turn in the card and hope for the best. If the players are there with the card and hand it to the TD with a question, it is not turned in. They are looking for an opinion that effects the card before they decide to turn it in.

From my understanding they turned in the card, then asked the TD about the hole, and he originally gave them par +4 and then I was brought into the fold by an official and the group since the group knew who I was, I guess they trusted me more.

From my understanding they turned in the card, then asked the TD about the hole, and he originally gave them par +4 and then I was brought into the fold by an official and the group since the group knew who I was, I guess they trusted me more.



Which gets back to the question that you seem to refuse to answer. What did they have written for the score for that hole? And was the total correct for what was written?

They had been given par +4 (7 technically) wich I've said. What exactly do you mean by total correct? Before or after the card? Either way I dont know that info as I did not handle their cards. I handled the pro's cards and some of the advanced. I only saw the scores of these rec players after we decided to let them play the hole +2 penalty.

The order you indicate in your posts is:
A) the card is handed in
B) TD is asked about the hole
C) TD changes score for hole to par+4
D) ruling changes to replay+2.

What was on the card for the missing hole at point A? If it was blank, it would not surprise me that the total at point A did not add up to the total of the holes that were marked (considering how most players add up their scores).

I believe a 7 was put in the blank spot originally.

I agree Gary.....'should' being the key word there ;)

I've seen many crazy scorecards turned in, never one with a score for a hole missing, but it wouldn't shock me at this point :p

Exactly! They misplayed the hole, and since the rules state that if said person misplays a hole, and turns their card in they dont have to replay the hole, but just get a +2 penalty. This would cause everyone to cheat when they know of a hole they dont want to play because they'll all simply get a 2 instead of a 4, 5 or 6.


No. No. No. Because the card was turned in it goes from a misplay TO BEING a failure to hole out, resulting in a DQ. You're twisting things.



I'm dumbfounded woj. The rules could not be more plain. I am starting to belive that these people don't want to understand them...


For some odd reason people want to over-complicate things by bringing in rules that don't apply unless they give players leeway by breaking other rules. And then when the rules are unclear after they break other rules, they complain.

Well some people just want to make sure everything is fair for all players, and when they consult a rule book which seems contradictory to itself then it can cause people to "over-complicate" things.

Glad to see you've handled this simple conversation with grace, maturity and dignity.

Glad to see you're acknowledging that the only reason a contradiction occurs is because you're breaking the rules.


Oh wait...

Well when the rules about holing out vs. sequential play are similar yet each have a different consequence then yes there is a slight contradiction.

They. Failed. To. Hole. Out.

How hard is that to understand? And they also FAILED. TO. PLAY. THE. HOLE. IT WAS NOT MIS-PLAYED. They turned in the card. Failed to hole out. Their round is OVER. Scores counted, time to apply the proper penalties. The penalty for FAILING TO HOLE OUT is DQ AT TD'S DISCRETION. If the TD chooses to not penalize them with a disqualification as is proper then it is his own problem how he chooses to solve it.

But here's your solution to this supposed contradiction: 999.

I would think that the rule that applies is the the rule that starts with "A player who fails to play any hole". You would never just add 2 strokes to there score and not score the missed hole. If you wanted to be generous and use the misplay rule, then the ruling would be "If the misplay is discovered after a subsequent throw has been made, the hole being played shall be completed. Immediately thereafter, the player shall proceed to play the course in its proper order from the point where the misplay began". Since we all know you can't alter a scorecard after it is turned in I think this rule would not apply after the scorecard is turned in. As long as they asked the TD what to do as they gave him the scorecard, then they could go play the hole with the 2 stroke penalty.

They. Failed. To. Hole. Out.

How hard is that to understand? And they also FAILED. TO. PLAY. THE. HOLE. IT WAS NOT MIS-PLAYED. They turned in the card. Failed to hole out. Their round is OVER. Scores counted, time to apply the proper penalties. The penalty for FAILING TO HOLE OUT is DQ AT TD'S DISCRETION. If the TD chooses to not penalize them with a disqualification as is proper then it is his own problem how he chooses to solve it.

But here's your solution to this supposed contradiction: 999.



Yes, they failed to hole out, BUT under the Non Sequential Rule it's considered skipping the hole as well and thus a +2 penalty stroke and not a DQ, so why 2 rules for the same situation?

Notice how I REPEATEDLY specified the following: "THEY TURNED IN THE CARD." over the course of my posts. A skipped hole is a hole that is skipped and replayed! Failing to hole out on a hole means the round has ended, the card has been turned in, and its all over. I think its pretty clear, especially when you consider that you can not apply +2 to something that doesn't exists (a score on a hole)!

These two rules are in place for separate situations. Not the same situation.

And if you look at 801.04 B(E) it clearly states that if the card is turned in then it's simply a +2 penalty stroke!

And if you look at 801.04 B(E) it clearly states that if the card is turned in then it's simply a +2 penalty stroke!



If this was the case then I could easily score a 36 on a 18 hole game and not break a sweat.

IMO if I were the TD it would depend on the course design. If the hole skipped was due to poor design, missing sign, or some other obstruction then I would let the card play the hole and add +2. If there were no distracting reasons for them to skip the hole then it's a DQ. I would suspect it was the former for the entire card to some how miss the hole.

And if you look at 801.04 B(E) it clearly states that if the card is turned in then it's simply a +2 penalty stroke!


THIS IS FOR A MIS-PLAYED HOLE! WHICH WOULD BE THE HOLE BEING PLAYED OUT OF ORDER. We're talking about the fact that the people have already finished their round and turned in their scorecard, thus creating a round where they failed to hole out on a hole. Not mis-play. Failed to hole out. Two different things. (emphasis for the fact that you can't seem to figure this part out) All proper penalties apply. In this case, as they failed to play the hole completely we're looking at a situation where the most severe penalty for failure to hole out should apply.

801.04.B.5 Skipping a hole or playing the holes in the wrong order. If the misplay is discovered after an initial throw has been made but before a subsequent throw has been made, the player shall re-tee from the correct teeing area and count the initial throw as a practice throw (one throw added to the player�s score). If the misplay is discovered after a subsequent throw has been made, the hole being played shall be completed. Immediately thereafter, the player shall proceed to play the course in its proper order from the point where the misplay began. Regardless of the number of holes skipped, or played in the wrong order, a total of two penalty throws shall be added to the player�s score for the misplay infraction. The score earned from any completed hole(s) shall stand. Any completed hole(s) shall not be replayed.

If they did not entirely meet the misplay described above then you can not go onto 801.04.E. 801.04.B.5 is a misplay of 2 types. First if after 1 throw on the wrong hole and second if after multiple throws on the wrong hole. In the type of misplay with multiple throws on the wrong hole you have to go back and play the missed holes. If you did not do this, then this rule does not apply.

I am not sure if it is clear or not, but 801.04.E applies to all 5 types of misplays listed in 801.04.B not just non-sequential play. In the future they should drop rule 801.04.E as it is covered by 804.03.G and maybe that would keep you from getting confused.

I am the rookie TD who made the initial incorrect call. It would have caused a huge log jam to have them replay it, so I looked at it as a missed hole (+7) and told them to play on (at that time). After further discussion with rules guru JD Hazel, we decided to replay the hole after the round and add 2 strokes. Yes, I did take my officials test, and no, I did not look up the rule at the time of infraction (my fault).

I will be more prepared next time, to make the correct call.

How about the good stuff about this tournament, fat payouts, tons of give aways, free food, drinks, chocolate cake, crazy insane fun wind, nice accomodations, players party jam, Bowling Greens own Disc Golf Shop and More's 1st sanctioned tournament ....JD Hazels 1st victory!!

I'm glad to see there are folks out here who appreciate the integrity of this game. As a new TD/Official, I have a lot to learn. I will definately know what to do if I come across this situation again. Thanks to everybody for clarifying.

Josh

Here's the difference between what happened and what was presented. The TD was aware of the missed hole and gave the players instructions as to what to do all prior to the card being turned in. That is very different than a card being turned in with a missing hole (or in this case with a missing hole and a incorrect score written for said missing hole).
SOTD, do you see the difference?

Josh thanks for posting the actual details. Having them play the missed hole at the end of the round probably does make the most sense from a logistical point of view, but having them replay the missed hole immediately should only cause a one card backup at the hole and not delay the tournament unduly.


Did you say chocolate cake? Mmmm that sounds really good right now. It would go well with my Mt. Dew.

Not your fault at all Josh. It's just really messed up that there are different interpretations of the rules, and it leads to a back and forth scream fest. I just want to help keep the integrity of the game intact by any means possible, and it doesnt help when our organizations rule book is subject to interpretation. There simply needs to be more clear cut guidelines, and instead of having multiple rules dealing with the same situation, but different outcomes the book should simply say "You fail to hole out or skip a hole then (insert consequence). I just think the book can be simplified, and to a point where people wont see contradictions.

Part of the reason there are different interpretations is the reluctance to DQ players. People look in the rule book and see that the penalty for a given offense is DQ, so they keep looking around the book for something else to hang their hat on that doesn't require a DQ. An admirable effort, but one that unfortunately causes other problems and wastes TD time.

On the other hand, yes the book needs clarification. But at the current rate and within the existing process set up for that, it will take a while. We are a young sport and it will take time and experience before all of these problems get worked out.

But at the same time if we dont act quickly to correct our mistakes then what's to keep it from being delayed 10-20 yrs from now when the new generation is going to be dealing not only with these problems, but the new ones that come along. We cant keep using the excuse "we're a young sport" anymore. It's past time that the PDGA and all its members work their butts off to make sure we are legit and prepared to handle all situations, and all new players.

when the rules discuss 'misplay' in regards to 'skipping a hole, etc.." the misplay, is not skipping a hole, the MISPLAY is when you throw on the next hole without playing the previous. so if you want to apply the +2 penalty to the holes misplayed as your answer to this situation, you may even need to apply the +2 to every hole played after the missed hole. essentially hole 18 was played 17th, hole 17 was played 16th etc... ?

that aside, my point is that the word misplay in the rule is not applying to the fact that a hole was missed, but the fact that the subsequent hole was played in the wrong order. so the +2 does apply to the holes played wrong, but you still do have to address the missing hole.

if they turned in the card with scores, its my opinion that they knowingly DNFd. if they went to the td and asked, 'what do we do, we missed a hole' then the td can tell them to replay that hole with a penalty applied to playing out of order, with those holes affected adding a +2 to each. otherwise its a dnf, and they obviously knew they didnt finish.

Guys,

Don't get into semantics here. As I understand it, the group came in with their scorecard, told the TD they had missed a hole when they turned in their card, because they couldn't find the hole. Common sense dictates that the TD would now say. "Go play hole 8, it's over here. You will get a 2-shot penalty afterwards for playing the holes non-sequentially."

The group did the right thing by telling the TD they missed a hole. Don't penalize them with a DQ for trying to do the right thing here, it's not warranted. Don't assume the scorecard was officially turned in, either. I would assume the group handed the scorecard to the TD to show him that "we missed a hole, now what do we do?" 2 shots is a decent sized penalty. The group played all of the holes, did not try to hide the fact they ended up playing the holes non-sequentially. No way in my book does that deserve a DQ. It does deserve a 2-throw penalty.

Chap

Guys,

Don't get into semantics here. As I understand it, the group came in with their scorecard, told the TD they had missed a hole when they turned in their card, because they couldn't find the hole. Common sense dictates that the TD would now say. "Go play hole 8, it's over here. You will get a 2-shot penalty afterwards for playing the holes non-sequentially."

The group did the right thing by telling the TD they missed a hole. Don't penalize them with a DQ for trying to do the right thing here, it's not warranted. Don't assume the scorecard was officially turned in, either. I would assume the group handed the scorecard to the TD to show him that "we missed a hole, now what do we do?" 2 shots is a decent sized penalty. The group played all of the holes, did not try to hide the fact they ended up playing the holes non-sequentially. No way in my book does that deserve a DQ. It does deserve a 2-throw penalty.

Chap



Common sense prevails. I wish I was going to KC next year! Had they turned in their card and had the TD turned to them and said, "Boys, we have a problem here. I am only counting 17 holes..." I agree that DQ would be the appropriate remedy. To those who have posted thinking that its +2 and nothing else, that seems...well...silly. its the score on the hole +2. There is not a hidden benefit to blowing off a hole. In essence I read it, and Chap appears to as well, that the round was not over. They were not turning in their card to finish the round but were showing the TD the card to figure out what to do next.

Guys,

Don't get into semantics here. As I understand it, the group came in with their scorecard, told the TD they had missed a hole when they turned in their card, because they couldn't find the hole. Common sense dictates that the TD would now say. "Go play hole 8, it's over here. You will get a 2-shot penalty afterwards for playing the holes non-sequentially."

The group did the right thing by telling the TD they missed a hole. Don't penalize them with a DQ for trying to do the right thing here, it's not warranted. Don't assume the scorecard was officially turned in, either. I would assume the group handed the scorecard to the TD to show him that "we missed a hole, now what do we do?" 2 shots is a decent sized penalty. The group played all of the holes, did not try to hide the fact they ended up playing the holes non-sequentially. No way in my book does that deserve a DQ. It does deserve a 2-throw penalty.

Chap


I agree with you, Chap. Completely. My argument is with them for stating that the rules are unclear. If they played things correctly: to the strictest, as it should be, the players would be DQed and there would be perfect clarity for the interpretation of the rules. However they chose (correctly, I might add) to circumvent things and give the players the benefit of the doubt. They're complaining that the rules don't provide them with a clear interpretation for how they should apply their misapplication of the rules.

However I do agree with the way they went about it.

I think the rules were clear enough, and the TD knew how to apply them properly.

Chap

I think the rules were clear enough, and the TD knew how to apply them properly.
Chap



I still thing we are missing some variables and in most situations on forums it may seam black and white when it is not.

The question yet to be answered is how the entire card missed an entire hole??? Was the course not properly marked or some other reason why this could happen. If we knew this then I could see not disqualifying a team since they didnt know you had to climb the rope ladder and swin under the waterfall the reach temp hole #7 1/2 that was not on the map. If they missed it due to pure stupidiety then DQ but I would hate to put a foul taste in players mouths when some tournaments do all they can to get even a semi-decent apperance from players sometimes.

I believe some of the rules state the TD gets to decide instead of being so black and white is to allow for situations where courses may differ from others and cause confusion.

I was the rookie TD on this. Lovers Lane in Bowling Green is clearly marked. The group was about the 3rd card in the rec division. The hole they missed was #8, they played #9, realized they skipped a hole, and informed me. I saw groups backing up behind them, so for times sake, I told them to put a 7 on their card as a mised hole, and we'll look further into it when they finish. When they came to turn their card in, we decided to let them replay the missed hole and add 2 strokes. It was a common sense decision, and DQ was not an option for an honest mistake they admitted immediately after it occurred.

I think PDGA officials should receive an email each month, and answer 10 different rules questions, to maintain their officials' status. This would help TD's with different scenarios, and enhance their knowledge of the rules.

Also a TD checklist might be useful also, if anybody knows of one, please provide info.

Thanks

On PDGA homepage, box on right, go to bottom and click on tourn information. The click on Tournament Director Checklist.

The right thing for the group to have done was to go back and play the missed hole as soon as they knew they missed it. Since the TD gave them other instructions they needed to heed the TD. I'd agree in this case DQ should not be on the table. If the TD had made the right call immediately and SOTD had posted accurate information at the start, we'd all see that the rules (for this scenario) are clear and straightforward.

Question: Does the group that missed a hole go back, and get in front of the group behind them, and make them wait while they replay the hole? After they play the missed hole, do they jump ahead, and then make another group wait, so they can get back in order?

Making them replay the hole during the round seems like it punishes possibly every group behind them, creates a dangerous siutation with players walking in the wrong direction, distractions to players watching them walk back to the hole they missed, waiting for an additional group to jump ahead of them, and then jump ahead agin to get back to their next hole.

I think the rule should be to replay the hole after the 17 holes, then add 2 strokes. That seems like the common sense solution that the rule book should indicate.

Thanks about the checklist, I just overlooked it. I was concentrating on the TD Report.

Yes, they should go back to the hole they missed and take the next turn when the hole is clear. After that, they jump ahead to the next hole that they need to play. What will probably happen is that there will be a single card backup at the hole that they missed. When they jump ahead, there will be a temporary 1 card backup where they resume play, but that will be absorbed by the gap they created after playing their missed hole. Depending on when in the round this happens, the gaps they create by temporarily jumping back (and jumping forward) will allow faster play at other parts of the course and eventually it will be absorbed. At the worst, it should delay the total round time by around 7.5 to 9 minutes.

What about the danger of walking backwards, and causing distractions to players behind them. TD's are responsible for safety of players as well.

I understand the rule, I just think it needs to be an option to replay the hole after they complete the rest of their holes.

What if the hole missed, and they don't catch it until several holes later. That could potentially be a 10-15 minute walk in some cases to even get back to the hole.......see my point?

Thanks

They need to go back, the players should not have even continued until they found the correct hole. If I were in a group that realized they couldn't find a hole or were on the wrong tee I would not throw. I would make every effort possible to find the correct tee regardless of the time "wasted." Knowingly teeing off is penalizing yourself 2 strokes, refusing to tee and trying to find the correct tee puts the onus on the TD; ie not sufficiently marked course, no map, or poor map, etc... The most frustrating thing at tournaments is to go to an unknown course with temp holes or different lay out than the original one that's up all year round and hear a TD explain the new lay out for 10+ minutes. Disc golfers have tuned them out after the words "Welcome to...."