You make the call...
A player makes his drive from what is the tee for the normal course layout, but is then informed by all members of his group that the hole has a special temp tournament tee clearly marked 30 feet behind where he threw. The player just made a mistake. Which rule applies?

(1) Wrong Tee: Teeing off from the wrong teeing area. If the misplay is discovered after the player�s throw from the incorrect teeing area, but before a subsequent throw, the player shall re-tee from the correct teeing area and treat the initial throw as a practice throw (one throw added to the player�s score). If the misplay is discovered after a subsequent throw, the player shall proceed to complete the hole and receive a two-throw penalty for the misplay.

--- or ---

F. A stance violation must be clearly called within three seconds after the infraction to be valid. The call may be made by any member of the group or an official. When the call is made by a member of the group, it must subsequently be confirmed by another member of the group. A player shall receive a warning for the first violation of a stance rule in the round. Subsequent violations of a stance rule in the same round shall incur a one-throw penalty.

Stroke for practice throw or warning for stance violation?

This seems painfully obvious. He threw from the wrong tee, so the wrong tee rule would apply. That's my opinion of course. I believe the stance rule applies on any lie after the initial drive, not on the drive itself.

I would then stroke all players on the card for not telling me that I was on the wrong tee. I'd make up some rule and stroke them all. That's just me though.

This seems painfully obvious. He threw from the wrong tee, so the wrong tee rule would apply.


That was my initial reaction as well. However there is an argument that where he threw from was not a "teeing area" for this tournament. In other word he did not throw from the wrong tee, he threw from an area that was not a tee at all. Splitting hairs?

Oh no, I can see worms crawling out of this can already. Now we're going to have to re-define what a "tee" is. I see what you're saying about it not being a tee. Then the rule would only apply to teeing off from tees that are designated as tees, and everything else would be considered practice throws.

I still don't see "Stance" being a call though. Probably just a practice throw, which would be the same as wrong tee anyway. Chuck, we await.

Wrong tee is a teeing area that might be a different tee on the same hole or different hole. If the place he threw from was a cement tee pad or was a natural pad marked as a tee, then wrong tee rule applies. You didn't say that the group called this "stance violation" within 3 seconds so that wouldn't apply anyway. But the stance violation rule pertains to misplacement of your supporting points during a throw and doesn't really apply to whether you are playing from the correct lie in the first place. The need for the wrong tee rule would be reduced if a future rules revision would just have a simple rule that provided a penalty for not playing from the correct lie. But that isn't the case currently.

My understanding was that the group informed him that he threw from an area that was not the designated tee. I don't think they ruled it a stance violation with a proper second when it happened.

It was on a ball golf course where normally the disc and ball golfers tee from the same area. In the tourney layout the tee was moved back a bit. I believe the area he threw from was still marked as a ball golf tee, hence the confusion.

I was surprised to hear that the TD ruled it a stance violation, so I discussed it with him. He made a reasonable argument that for the wrong tee rule to apply he had to have thrown from a teeing area, which he did not. However, one can assert that it is a teeing area because he teed from there.

I think I would have stoked him for a practice throw as stated in the wrong tee rule. Just wanted others' take on it.

Thanks for the responses.

801-04.B.

Specific Types of Misplay and Penalty Procedures for Each:
(1) Wrong Tee: Teeing off from the wrong teeing area. If the misplay is discovered after the player�s throw from the incorrect teeing area, but before a subsequent throw, the player shall re-tee from the correct teeing area and treat the initial throw as a practice throw (one throw added to the player�s score). If the misplay is discovered after a subsequent throw, the player shall proceed to complete the hole and receive a two-throw penalty for the misplay.



This is covered in the rule book, and quite clearly I feel. I had this happen during a round about a month ago (a hole with two tees nearly on top on one another). We called it after the player threw but before we headed up the fairway so it was considered a practice throw.

Either way, I don't feel the player should have gotten off with just a warning. However, it seems the TD should have made it a little more obvious NOT to tee from there. This, of course, is a great reason to pay attention to the player's meeting.

All the teeing areas were clearly marked with tee-signs and wooden blocks with the hole number on them. So there was no confusion about the teeing surface. Additionally during the players meeting everyone was instructed to play from the blocks.

I wasn't part of making this call. However, I know the card and the majority of the field was notified of the decision and everyone was happy with the call that was made.

Additionally upon reading this thread, I went back and reviewed the players card to see if he was penalized during that round. His card shows a penalty was given out during the round. Since I am not sure of the hole in question, I do not know if it was the same hole or not.

Richard
CO-TD SVO

ha, I didn't even realize until you jumped in that we're talking about the SVO. I was the CO-TD of End of the Trail Classic. Heeelllloooooo down there.

I would make him tee from the correct pad after his mistake, this way, it is only a practice throw, and smaller penalty.

ha, I didn't even realize until you jumped in that we're talking about the SVO. I was the CO-TD of End of the Trail Classic. Heeelllloooooo down there.



Hello up there! I figured it was better to jump in and actually clear up some of the confusion.

Richard

I just dont get that if the tees were that far off how can the rest of the card let him tee of on the wrong tee pad.

I just dont get that if the tees were that far off how can the rest of the card let him tee of on the wrong tee pad.



Sad huh. I'd be watching every foot fault like a hawk, warning for courtesy, and measuring jump putts after that. :D

I just dont get that if the tees were that far off how can the rest of the card let him tee of on the wrong tee pad.



Sad huh. I'd be watching every foot fault like a hawk, warning for courtesy, and measuring jump putts after that. :D



"Hey, the tee is over here." would have solved the entire situation before it even happened.

In the end everything worked out and the group and field was happy.

Richard

OK, so what is the difference between a wrong tee and a stance violation? In both cases not all supporting points are on the tee.
Is it the distance from the correct tee? Is 2 feet from the correct tee any different from 50 feet?
Is it the intent of the thrower?

It's not clear to me that the rules describe the the difference.

A stance violation is called when you mess up at your intended lie; wrong tee when your intended lie is incorrect.

A tee is not the same as a lie.

By strict definition, any throw not from your lie is a practice throw, but previous discussions here fail to hold to the definition.