After looking up this rule, "Pros playing in Am division", i have concluded that 'I dont know for sure' so i thought i would ask the higher intelligence.

It refers to a Pro playing in Am division if ratings are below a certain level.
So here is what i want to know: If i accepted cash as a Pro Master, and my rating is 935, can i play Advanced Master divisions still?
Specifically, the US Masters Championships
which is A MAJOR event. I noticed the rules only refer to A,B,C, tier events.
Thanks, Floyd

After looking up this rule, "Pros playing in Am division", i have concluded that 'I dont know for sure' so i thought i would ask the higher intelligence.

It refers to a Pro playing in Am division if ratings are below a certain level.
So here is what i want to know: If i accepted cash as a Pro Master, and my rating is 935, can i play Advanced Master divisions still?
Specifically, the US Masters Championships
which is A MAJOR event. I noticed the rules only refer to A,B,C, tier events.
Thanks, Floyd



NOPE...You pretty much answered it for yourself....It's a MAJOR.

BUT you can for A Tier & below...... :D

Doesnt he have to have a rating below 935 in order to play Adv Masters. His rating is 935 so I believe he cant play Adv Masters. He can play Adv Am.

So was this a mistake then....

The US Ams winner in Advanced (http://www.pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=7273#Advanced)

From the competition manual.
2.4. Pros Playing Am
A. Pros rated less than 970 may now compete in Amateur
divisions offered at PDGA A, B, and C Tier events, for
which they qualify based on player rating, age, and gender.

It excludes Majors it seems.

The gentleman seemed to play entirely in Pro Open in 2007 and cashed in 2007 and also cashed in open in 2006 so that makes him a Pro, right?

Unless of course he accepted merchandise instead of money (could you do that back in 2006?), which there is no way for someone like me to find out by looking at the tourney results posted on the PDGA website so I will trust the people with the data to have properly vetted this man before letting him run for... dang, sorry been watching too much politics, before letting him enter the tourney :D

Egads... don't start this argument again. *sigh* Fact is its over, he's playing Open now. Good times.

The gentleman seemed to play entirely in Pro Open in 2007 and cashed in 2007 and also cashed in open in 2006 so that makes him a Pro, right?


He applied to be reinstated as an Am (as any pro can do) and it was approved making Am majors available to him.

OK, no worries.

Any pro can ask.... but

I just question the governance of a sanctioning body that would actually reinstate a player that is CLEARLY a pro level player with a rating that high and that demonstrated the ability to cash on tournaments and allow them back to am status without, lets say a medical reason or something. Just doesn't seem right.

And it seems it was done SPECIFICLY so that the player could win the Am championship after playing Pro for a year. I don't think I can take anymore of this BS. How do we go about pettioning the rules commitee to get some changes to the system so that crap like this isn't allowed or is at least punished.

I mean seriously, this guy totally worked the system!

Crap, now I'm in a bad mood.

Yeah, thanks Magilla. I figure that because its a Major then there are more specific rules involved. Guess since i dont see the word 'Major' than i thought other interpretations may be available to that effect. I also dont view the 'Masters Championship' as the typical event that would be deemed as a 'Major Event'. I feel without A True Top field of players than why would the 'Championship' moniker be attached to the event.
I was looking to save on entry fees as i have had a possible
Right handed injury that may force me to play Left handed for an unknown duration. Or maybe the PDGA could let me re-register as a beginner or intermediate with the left hand.
I just wanna play still but my circumstances may dictate otherwise. I do have 3 weeks of throwing opposite hand now.
I know enough soapbox, thanks i-am-done for the reply as well.
Floyd

He applied to be reinstated as an Am (as any pro can do) and it was approved making Am majors available to him.



How do you go about this? Should I just write a letter to PDGA HQ. I haven't cashed in Open in almost a year and I'd really like a chance to play in the Am Nats at least once!

Thanks

Dgentry at pdga.com

If we would all just use the rating system in place and forget all the Pro and Am crap, this argument would not exist. Ratings work in almost every case. Here is a good example

Ratings Based Event (http://www.pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=7524)

If you look at the results closely, you'll see the winners of each division would have either not cashed in the next division up or would have been near last cash.

The only thing that bugs me is the results don't show the rating breaks. The PDGA STILL shows divisional names for ratings based events.

Bottom line, use the rating systems for all events, IT WORKS.

http://www.pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=8267

I mean seriously, this guy totally worked the system!

Crap, now I'm in a bad mood.



i thought it was odd at first myself but looking back he was rated under 970 and its not like he was raking it in as a Pro. So i can maybe see where the pardon to play Am came from.

that being said I do think it should be pretty cut and dry... if you've cashed... EVER... you should NEVER be allowed to play in one of the majors in an Am division. Its not like your really limiting people here. This is a few events out of hundreds/thousands? a year.

With the ability of a 969 rated guy to be able to cash one weekend and play am the next in anything other than these events I think they did a good job to move towards ratings based divisions but allowing people to play in majors like this really doesnt seem right.

http://www.pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=8267



Maybe no one noticed this but the fact of the matter is that..... DAEMON DON"T GIVE A FLYING [censored] about anything except stacks of plastic. The PDGA supports his agenda and they will continue to let him play in any [censored] division he chooses as evidenced by the above quote. You gents need to get over it and just deal. PEACE

I mean seriously, this guy totally worked the system!

Crap, now I'm in a bad mood.

Too bad you're not accepting pms...

http://www.pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=8267


TD messed up. I'm sure it'll be corrected soon.

Still funny though.

EASY JOE.

Maybe no one noticed this but the fact of the matter is that..... DAEMON DON"T GIVE A FLYING [censored] about anything except stacks of plastic. The PDGA supports his agenda and they will continue to let him play in any [censored] division he chooses as evidenced by the above quote. You gents need to get over it and just deal. PEACE



I belive it should read like this: "DAEMON DOESN'T GIVE A FLYING [censored] about anything except stacks of plastic."

While I'm fine with pro's petitioning to go back to am status, I do believe that the PDGA must set clear guidelines before such a petition can be filed. Example...

1. Must be under 970
2. Must be Open for at least year
3. Cannot have accepted more than (insert $ amount)

Those are not really suggestions, but just an idea of what needs to be set in order for petitioning to even occur.

i feel like perhaps the guidelines should be set, and applied to protected divisions as well. there should be both a rating limit and a time limit involved relative to cashing in the pro division.

what i mean is, for example,..

if someone cashes in the pro division, but is under 970, they have to play in the open division for the next 3 months, or 2 months or something. if in that three time frame they fail to cash, and are still under 970, they can again play in the appropriate am division if they wish.

this would prevent the jumping back and forth whenever they feel like they have an advantage. and if they want to go back and forth so often they can take merch instead of cash and stay an am, under the new rule, and do this.

i feel something similar should apply with the masters division. there are tons of very high rated masters, they play in the masters divison, protected from the open players, but when they feel like it, jump to the open division for tournaments that have a better payout. now, im all for age protected divisions, but i also have seen many very tallented players take advantage of their age and sweep the masters when the payout is good, then play open when they feel like it. perhaps the same plan should be in place. if you play open and cash, you cannot play masters for 3 months or 2 months, if by then you didnt again cash, you can play masters again.

some sort of temporary time frame allows people to go back to divisions where they will be competitive, if they randomly cashed at an event. if the cashing wasnt random, and they have the ability to compete in the open division, this ruleset wouldnt allow them to jump back and forth.

i feel like perhaps the guidelines should be set, and applied to protected divisions as well. there should be both a rating limit and a time limit involved relative to cashing in the pro division.

what i mean is, for example,..

if someone cashes in the pro division, but is under 970, they have to play in the open division for the next 3 months, or 2 months or something. if in that three time frame they fail to cash, and are still under 970, they can again play in the appropriate am division if they wish.

this would prevent the jumping back and forth whenever they feel like they have an advantage. and if they want to go back and forth so often they can take merch instead of cash and stay an am, under the new rule, and do this.

i feel something similar should apply with the masters division. there are tons of very high rated masters, they play in the masters divison, protected from the open players, but when they feel like it, jump to the open division for tournaments that have a better payout. now, im all for age protected divisions, but i also have seen many very tallented players take advantage of their age and sweep the masters when the payout is good, then play open when they feel like it. perhaps the same plan should be in place. if you play open and cash, you cannot play masters for 3 months or 2 months, if by then you didnt again cash, you can play masters again.

some sort of temporary time frame allows people to go back to divisions where they will be competitive, if they randomly cashed at an event. if the cashing wasnt random, and they have the ability to compete in the open division, this ruleset wouldnt allow them to jump back and forth.



are you serious? who's going to track/maintain/police this? hey man... have you played your full 3 months @ pro yet?

when you look @ the diversity of skill levels at different tournaments throughout the country and even from weekend to weekend in the same regions it shows the need for people being able to bounce around. I wasn't in favor of this at first but allowing it for A tier and under and not majors is a good middle ground (maybe to exclude A tiers down the road... personal opinion there).

example is player A may be 950 rated and generally plays pro around home at C tiers because they used to smoke the advanced field and they can sometimes cash at pro even playing @ that level in those tourneys so they decide to play pro. Is this person really that good and should always have to play pro... no way! If that same person decides to travel to a 'big A or B tier' tourney where there is better competition and they might not even cash in Advanced they should be able to move back to Advanced and compete where they are competitive. Sure some people may abuse the system but its there for examples like this.

on the flip side you could have an AM who is getting pretty good, rated around 965 and consistently winning local or lesser small tourneys and maybe they want to play pro @ those little tourneys to see how they stack up... good for them. They still shouldn't have to move up when that same person might get shellacked playing Pro or even Advanced in some cases at bigger tournies.

i know there arent enough resources to actually make this happen, i also know that there can always be improvements and suggestions, as that was.

your argument about an am getting pretty good and wanting to try out pro, thats what the new rule is for, being able to try out pro and take merch. im fine with that, go back and fourth as much as you want and take merch, you arent a pro yet. and the example of 'player A', perhaps he should be doing the same thing, if he can sometimes cash at c tiers, im not trying to keep these people from being able to compete where they should.

here is the main problem, i failed to outline this explicitly above, this is where im coming from.

allowing people to jump back and forth, as a pro, taking both cash in the pro division and merch in the am division.. has created a rule that the sole beneficiary are those people that are on the line. why is there a rule that makes it so the people that are good enough to play and cash in the pro division, can have the best of both worlds? now, i know that there are plenty of people using the rule for good, and that the rule is perfect for, BUT,... when you create a rule that has one specific set of people (960-970 rated, give or take) that it will benefit, AND its still set up so that those people can exploit this rule, i find it silly.

to put it simply, it seems that this rule allows those real high ams, or lower pros to play wherever they will cash the biggest, with no restraint, and no restriction on what currency they win.

part of the problem on defining these things, as you said, is that competition levels vary so much both between tiers, and regions. around here, people start playing both am1 and open very early and with lower ratings, they just move up sooner. and other places ive played, the ams are approaching the high 980s+ without thinking of playing open. therefore, there will never be a blanket system that appeases everyone, all you can do is put rules down for the ideal situations and hope it works out.

i am by no means heated on this, just making a simple observation on the new rules and how i have seen them impacting play.

Maybe no one noticed this but the fact of the matter is that..... DAEMON DON"T GIVE A FLYING [censored] about anything except stacks of plastic. The PDGA supports his agenda and they will continue to let him play in any [censored] division he chooses as evidenced by the above quote. You gents need to get over it and just deal. PEACE



I belive it should read like this: "DAEMON DOESN'T GIVE A FLYING [censored] about anything except stacks of plastic."



KD, I believe you are correct that it should read DOESN'T. But, I'm not sure DOESN'T carries the enough IGNCE to bee an effective post as compared to DON'T.

allowing people to jump back and forth, as a pro, taking both cash in the pro division and merch in the am division.. has created a rule that the sole beneficiary are those people that are on the line. why is there a rule that makes it so the people that are good enough to play and cash in the pro division, can have the best of both worlds?


Maybe the people on the 960-970 bubble are more visible but you're way off the mark on who beneifts from being able to betweeen divisions. I've been in the 930-940 range and have played in as many as 5 divisions in one year because my "home" division of Pro GM doesn't exist at many events. There are pros all the way down to 825 who have been able to play the appropriate am division when there were no pro Legends at the event or no pro women and they play Rec Am instead of beat up on the Advanced women.

There are pros all the way down to 825



something seems so wrong about this statement

Nothing wrong when you think about it. Female Pro Legends: http://www.pdga.com/tournament/playerstats.php?PDGANum=3003

ok Woj... i'm talking about Men though

of course anyone can be a 'pro' if they feel like paying the PDGA enough

The rule was meant to benefit pros at all ages and both genders, not just the 960-969 guys. There have been many more players below 960 that have used the rule to cross back and forth so they could play in much larger divisions and not have small divisions for the TD to deal with.

so as an am why should i have to lose to a pro who is bagging in my division cuz he can't hack it anymore in his own division? but realistically if there is not gonna be any difference then why do we even have different membership rates. with this thinking everyone should pay the exact same rate for the membership? because everyone can play any division. i always thought if an am accepted cash then they could no longer play ams. all of this in turn makes the lower ams reluctant to move up....

Forget about the pro and am labels. The rating is what counts. A 940 pro shouldn't scare you more than a 950 Am. In fact the Am is more likely on the upswing and slightly under rated. The additional money from Pro vs Am memberships goes to a variety of items specifically for pros, much discussed on other threads such as Worlds, marshal and NT support.

Forget about the pro and am labels. The rating is what counts. A 940 pro shouldn't scare you more than a 950 Am. In fact the Am is more likely on the upswing and slightly under rated. The additional money from Pro vs Am memberships goes to a variety of items specifically for pros, much discussed on other threads such as Worlds, marshal and NT support.



this is totally true! if you really think about it, an adv master whos rating is 960 is a true 960! an up and comer whos rating is 940 is more like 960-970!

example: i played in the texas teams championships this weekend. i was in the adv2 spot and i had to play a 976 adv master/masters golfer when my rating was only 934. i could tell i was a much better golfer than him but he has gotten all of his bad rounds out of his rating where i am still in the process of doing so! now i did lose on the last hole. but in theory if he was truely 40 pts higher than me, he should have spanked my butt from the get go! so chuck is totally right on with this one! dont be scared of people moving back and forth just take it as an oportunity to spank his {censored} !

Your division is intermediate. I don't see any pros winning in Intermediate in any of the tournaments in your stats. Are you talking about something too recent to be in your stats or some fantasy?

It's like Chuck said: it's not about pro and am in PDGA competition. It's about how good you are. Any [censored] can go buy himself a pro card, and even the good ones can get old and get arthritis and decline.

If you don't have the cahones to play against other players rated 900 to 935 I guess you have to take up something non-competitive.

Your division is intermediate. I don't see any pros winning in Intermediate in any of the tournaments in your stats. Are you talking about something too recent to be in your stats or some fantasy?

It's like Chuck said: it's not about pro and am in PDGA competition. It's about how good you are. Any [censored] can go buy himself a pro card, and even the good ones can get old and get arthritis and decline.

If you don't have the cahones to play against other players rated 900 to 935 I guess you have to take up something non-competitive.



Or play Age-Protected and win more cash.

Your division is intermediate. I don't see any pros winning in Intermediate in any of the tournaments in your stats. Are you talking about something too recent to be in your stats or some fantasy?

It's like Chuck said: it's not about pro and am in PDGA competition. It's about how good you are. Any [censored] can go buy himself a pro card, and even the good ones can get old and get arthritis and decline.

If you don't have the cahones to play against other players rated 900 to 935 I guess you have to take up something non-competitive.



Or play Age-Protected and win more cash.



Hey matt is was actually your adv2 player i was playing against! lol! mark mccoin

Your division is intermediate. I don't see any pros winning in Intermediate in any of the tournaments in your stats. Are you talking about something too recent to be in your stats or some fantasy?

It's like Chuck said: it's not about pro and am in PDGA competition. It's about how good you are. Any [censored] can go buy himself a pro card, and even the good ones can get old and get arthritis and decline.

If you don't have the cahones to play against other players rated 900 to 935 I guess you have to take up something non-competitive.



Or play Age-Protected and win more cash.



Hey matt is was actually your adv2 player i was playing against! lol! mark mccoin




Yeah and he is an old man. :D

All of this Pro vs. AM sandbagging BS could and should be put to rest by a very simple tweak to the tournament format:

Don't give a payout to AMs. Give them a sweet players pack so the TD and club can still raise money.

Keep pro divisions pretty much the same..

Before you totally denounce this, take a look at The Memorial AM tournament. They do this. Watch it fill well in advance..

It's kind of like stopping off at a disc golf store, giving them $75 to pick out whatever they want for you while you go play free with your buddies. I wouldn't think that model could be repeated more once or twice a year.

It's kind of like stopping off at a disc golf store, giving them $75 to pick out whatever they want for you while you go play free with your buddies. I wouldn't think that model could be repeated more once or twice a year.



I strongly disagree with this analogy.

Your choice of dollar amount ($75) is unrealistic but you use it to support your strawman and draw doubts on my proposal.

I'll give this as a more typical example:

Amateur entry fee: $30
This is divided up accordingly:
PDGA Fee: $3
Tournament Expenses: $2
Players Pack Retail: $25

So the tournament adds value over your local disc golf store by offering:
1. Competitive rounds against a large field
2. Round Ratings
3. Trophies and Recognition
4. Limited Edition -tournament only- custom stamped discs and apparel.
5. Chance to see and interact with local professional players.

Once everyone gets used to this format I believe it will be the best in the long term for the health of the sport. It offers a clear separation between Pro and Am. I applaud The Memorial for following through on this format and making it a huge success. I urge Bowling Green to just go for it and adapt this. You are very close to it anyways..

The Pro/Am lines are blurred when you're talking about an AM winning hundreds of dollars in plastic which can be sold for cash vs. a Pro that just cuts out that annoying step of selling plastic to take cash. System is broke, sandbagging is rampant and accusations are constantly flying. Don't you think there is something wrong when every time an AM wins a tournament they get heckled to move up? You can mess with ratings all you want but until you end payouts for AMs then there is no real amateur in the PDGA model.

The $75 was simply close to the entry fee for the Memorial from your example and is not related to regular weekend play. If the system were to be changed, perhaps a better way to do it would be to have only the top 8 rated players play for cash and have everyone else play amateur which is what most of us really are. That way the top players who are the closest to pros who make a living in other sports could split up the added cash and have a chance to survive as pros. With most players as Ams, the differential would be in there to not only cover event expenses and something for the TD and volunteers but also maybe add more cash to the purse that wasn't used for other expenses.

While this solution works at the Memorial, it's unlikely to attract weekend players on any kind of consistent basis. There is no cookie cutter format that will work for all tournaments. The TD chooses to offer one format or another and the customers choose to play or not. Give the TD more choices for the product they can offer (how to run the tournament) and they can offer what they think their customers are willing to buy.

This option works at the Memorial because it's a destination tournament. People don't flock to the Memorial because of the payout or the players' pack. They flock to it becuase it's March, it's spring break, it's Arizona and it's a big, well run, fun (AFAIK) tournament, etc. How they reward their AMs is, as they have proven, irrelevant.

There's nothing in the rules to prevent a TD from offering the same payout format Ask your local TDs to offer this.


All of this Pro vs. AM sandbagging BS could and should be put to rest by a very simple tweak to the tournament format:

Don't give a payout to AMs. Give them a sweet players pack so the TD and club can still raise money.

Before you totally denounce this, take a look at The Memorial AM tournament. They do this. Watch it fill well in advance..

But it isn't spring break. Its the week BEFORE spring break :( :( :( And I just got the destination guide for my parents new timeshare and one of them is in town. Boo.

I hope my semester is light/dead enough that I can sneak off.

Hey Chuck, or anyone I guess, where do I go or who do I talk to apply for reclassification to amateur, I could find nothing.

Send an email to: [email protected]

Hey Chuck, or anyone I guess, where do I go or who do I talk to apply for reclassification to amateur, I could find nothing.


Dude??? Rating of 967 and cashing in 3 out of 7 events??? Why do you want to go back to AM??

One of those was a hometown tourney, and due to someone elses meltdown - it really makes it 2/7

So, you're currently rated 967... you can still play advanced if you want to until your rating hits 970.

Or are you just trying to save $25 when you renew?

You've still cashed in 3 of the last 4 open tournaments you've played.

more likely he's looking to play worlds as an am seeing as he's from kansas. i believe there was a rash of reclassifications from michigan last year.

i really wish they would simply cut anyone who has EVER been a pro out of am majors.

more likely he's looking to play worlds as an am seeing as he's from kansas. i believe there was a rash of reclassifications from michigan last year.

i really wish they would simply cut anyone who has EVER been a pro out of am majors.




I talked to a Master who did that so he could play at KC.

Maybe us ams should just take note of the P in the PDGA and be glad they let us play at all.

Maybe us ams should just take note of the P in the PDGA and be glad they let us play at all.




That's what I've been saying all along. :p

Ams bring alot of money to the table, most pro-am events have alot more ams. So without other outside money it's essential to have the ams added cash.

I thought the P referred to the professional nature of the organization rather than to professional disc golfers themselves. I wasn't around when the org was formed but maybe someone who was can chime in. Thanks.



Maybe us ams should just take note of the P in the PDGA and be glad they let us play at all.

Ams bring alot of money to the table, most pro-am events have alot more ams. So without other outside money it's essential to have the ams added cash.

This is so funny. When I first started saying this on the message boards in 1998 or 1999 it was scandalous. TDs would deny it. Ams were unaware of it. I'd blackboard the tournament economics and the TDs would call me names and refuse to respond to the issue. [Name calling was a standard message board practice back then.]

Now everyone just accepts it as a given.

The ams are there to be milked. So we milk them. So what? They're like cows in so many ways. Why wouldn't we milk them? Milking cows LIKE being milked. Ask Tracey Glidden; he lives on a dairy farm. Their udders are full and what happened to that calf anyway? No matter. The nice farmer will lighten my load.

talked to a Master who did that so he could play at KC.


what wanker would that be scooter? nesbit? :o

Ams bring alot of money to the table, most pro-am events have alot more ams. So without other outside money it's essential to have the ams added cash.

This is so funny. When I first started saying this on the message boards in 1998 or 1999 it was scandalous. TDs would deny it. Ams were unaware of it. I'd blackboard the tournament economics and the TDs would call me names and refuse to respond to the issue. [Name calling was a standard message board practice back then.]

Now everyone just accepts it as a given.

The ams are there to be milked. So we milk them. So what? They're like cows in so many ways. Why wouldn't we milk them? Milking cows LIKE being milked. Ask Tracey Glidden; he lives on a dairy farm. Their udders are full and what happened to that calf anyway? No matter. The nice farmer will lighten my load.




How are they being Milked????? If they win $100 in merch they get it at retail value right? Should they be getting it at costs so that they are not being milked?

I never remember complaining about payout as an AM but that is probably because I never realized why we could get so much for winning.

I mean its REAl easy to sell a Chainstar for $225 after winning ADV! At least a lot easier than earning that $225 in MPO.

Just because the AMs are paying what they would have to pay anywhere else for the discs doesn't mean they are getting milked.

talked to a Master who did that so he could play at KC.


what wanker would that be scooter? nesbit? :o




I spit up my drink reading that one!

But no it isn't Nez

:D:p

Um ,it looks to me that you indeed played several tournaments as an am yourself.

Moooooooooooooooooooo.

like cows...is that a personal attack to all ams...where are the moderators for that one!!! :D

like cows...is that a personal attack to all ams...where are the moderators for that one!!! :D

No, that was a personal attack on dairy cows. :D

the girls are gonna be [censored]...

Poor dairy cows...where is PETA when you need them!!!