Is this America????? [Archive] - PDGA Discussion Board

Pizza God

Sep 02 2008, 12:51 PM

Your attitude about the police is becoming more and more common.

Many protesters believe that there are "provocateurs" planted in protests to start riots so the police can arrest everyone. There are many videos of them being pointed out. It has come to the point that any one who tries to start something is singled out as a "provocateur".

there is an excellent video from the SSP protest in Canada. The older generation of protesters were blocking the police from getting to the protesters. they also pointed out 2 or 3 guys with weapons (as classified by the police in Riot cases) where older protesters confronted these guys because they were trying to get to the protest. The police did nothing about it and one of the videos even caught an audio of one of these "provocateurs" talking to the police like he knows them. (I can't remember exactly what he said)

If I come across this video again, I will post it.

What am I trying to point out with these video's??????

I am trying to point out the extent of what free speech is being curtailed. Even if I don't agree with you, you still have a 1st Amendment right to protest and state your opinion.

What the policemen in these video's are doing is keeping these people from doing that.

Now if the protest is about rioting, yes those people should be arrested. BUT if you really watch these videos, you will see the police tend to intimidate the protesters to the point the protesters want to fight back.

A good protester will resist NON VIOLENTLY, in other words, SIT or stand with your hands in the air where they can be seen. What you will see the riot police to in these cases is slam them down on the ground and arrest them. Most of the time there charges are dropped.

I am sure I will be posting more videos today. The policemen are only doing what they are ordered to do. You never know what they are being told. For all they know these people are terrorists. Why else would they come in with guns pointed at people who pose no threats.

I will let the video's speek for themselves. If you are OK with the way these people are being treated, you truely do not understand what The Constitution is suppose to be about.

Pizza God

Sep 03 2008, 04:27 AM

Classic example of the police going too far

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ul8dPhjGPBQ

Sorry, no embedding this one. All she was trying to do was give a policeman a flower (very hippie like) then ONE cop decides he does not like it and sprays her when all the others were doing the correct thing and ignoring her.

Now for the disclaimer, this video is not close enough to hear if the police warned her first. Either way, even if they did, this type of thing makes me sick to my stomach. the one that really gets me is that last shot, she was bend over with her back to him and the policeman sprays her again. (lawsuit if you ask me)

I spend all my free time listening/watching the Rally for the Republic today, I have not spent much time on YouTube, this video was emailed to me by a fellow RP supporter in Phoenix that was just attacked and arrested for videoing a demonstration in front of a "Photo Enforcement" van. (I should post that video when he posts it, it was caught on tape but due to legal reasons, he has not posted it yet)

For those of you who don't know, an AUSTRALIAN COMPANY owns those vans and sends in the tickets. The police were protecting the scam. In other words, the city of Scottsdale contracts out there speed traps to non police officers.

Pizza God

Sep 03 2008, 04:36 AM

Sorry, that was Scottsdale. Here is a video of what they were doing with the police showed up.

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/nGPt-AzyTcg&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/nGPt-AzyTcg&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

According to there web site, RP4409 was videoing 2 guys doing what they did in this video. the two guys actually blocking the camera did not get arrested, only RP4409 who was video taping them and not taking part.

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/ggyVNTHRSwU&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/ggyVNTHRSwU&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

Pizza God

Sep 03 2008, 04:43 AM

What they have been doing

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/PmJQzMEnokw&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/PmJQzMEnokw&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>
(I don't necessarily agree with that very last shot)

People took notice

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/whFO8tbKpzo&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/whFO8tbKpzo&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

Pizza God

Sep 03 2008, 02:48 PM

ANHYZER

Sep 03 2008, 02:49 PM

Please change your screen name to YouTube_God...

Pizza God

Sep 03 2008, 03:19 PM

:D

Yes, I tend to run Youtube video's as I do paperwork.

the Quicklist is great, select all your subscribed videos, then one click and they all play back to back.

However right now, I am just going though my emails.

Another one sent to me, this is mostly about impeachment, but he spells out the same things I just mentioned in the videos above.

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/iCB10JmKHLA&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/iCB10JmKHLA&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

And Yes, I think Bush should be impeached for lying to the American public and over stepping the Constitution with Executive Orders. (one of them is mentioned in this video, one that we were worried about too)

Pizza God

Sep 04 2008, 05:09 PM

Pizza God

Sep 04 2008, 05:41 PM

Journalist Amy Goodman confronts police chief over her arrest (http://www.twincities.com/news/ci_10364066?source=rncWidget)

Pizza God

Sep 04 2008, 05:51 PM

10 arrested on second day of downtown protest marches (http://www.twincities.com/ci_10364496?source=most_viewed)

tbender

Sep 04 2008, 05:54 PM

Any info about the lady ushered out of the XCel Center last night?

Pizza God

Sep 04 2008, 05:59 PM

It is not as if more people are in St. Paul, Just as many people were protesting in Denver. There are plenty of videos of those protesters being attacked by the police.

I did not understand why you are suppose to video take all your encounters with the police until recently. The Police act differently when they know they are being videoed and can't make stuff up. Just ask Rodney King how important it is to have your arrest videoed.
DNC Final Tally: DPD Makes 152 Arrests (http://cbs4denver.com/denver2008/denver.Convention.Arrests.2.805435.html)

ANHYZER

Sep 04 2008, 06:01 PM

Pizza God

Sep 04 2008, 06:05 PM

This is an email I just got from a friend of mine who went to St. Paul this week (for the Rally for the Republic)

This is the letter to that is sent through the Free Press organization in response to the Amy Goodman arrest.

I hope all of you will join me in stepping up today to take back our country.

I don't know about you but I don't want part of it back, I want it all back.

I want to hand it over to my children and their children in better shape then my parents gave it to me.

Not just as free as our fore-fathers intended, but fiscally and morally sound. It would be immoral not to do otherwise.

I will be calling on all of you within the next two weeks to rally again.

Not just for a Presidency, but for something far beyond that.

The restoration of our Freedom and right to determine our destiny.

Please make the time and effort to save our country, if not for yourself, then for your children.

Here is the letter I sent to the Minneapolis police with a title added.

Terrorist are within our Borders

I strongly condemn the arrests and harassment of journalists covering the Republican National Convention. We call upon St. Paul officials to free all detained journalists and drop all charges against them.

These include arrests made during police raids in the days prior to the convention and, on Sept 1, of Associated Press photographer Matt Rourke, Democracy Now! anchor Amy Goodman and her two colleagues Sharif Abdel Kouddous and Nicole Salazar.

Independent journalists have been targeted, pepper-sprayed and held at gunpoint during these raids. We call on the mayor and local authorities to rein in these aggressive and violent tactics.

Arresting and detaining journalists for doing their jobs is a gross violation of free speech and freedom of the press. Journalists must be free to do their jobs without intimidation.

I was in Minneapolis for the Ron Paul ?Rally for the Republic? and stayed at a hostel with other members of the press. One of them was also harassed and the police treated his camera case like a bomb.

After threat of tear gas and wondering if the Police would confiscate his camera, he was allowed to go on his way as a benign citizen. All the other reporters were in fear of retribution and knew the Press Badge was no barrier from Police harassment.

Now the people of this country do not fear terrorism as much as they fear the climate of living in a police state. We now fear the subtle terrorism creeping into our lives, that is the loss of our freedom.

The freedom to speak unhindered against our Government and the freedom to pass our ideas or complaints on to others in any form is the core component of freedom itself.

You took an oath to uphold the law, this includes the Constitution. It is not a quaint piece of paper on display in Washington. It is a revered ideology that has guided America to be the strongest and most envied country in the world.

Now in recent history this ideal is being torn apart, piece by piece and desecrated by an immoral government.

There is a grass roots movement to take back the Freedom and REAL security we had as citizens. In the name of Homeland Security the officers we trusted in the past are now becoming the terrorist within our borders.

You may say you have a job to do but so did the police in "brown and black" shirts in Germany under Hitler. Most were patriotic Germans with good intentions, but they were systematically whipped into a force that controlled the country with terror. In the end, many were ashamed and regret their actions.

I am sure you wish to practice your abilities at crowd control that our Government has aggressively offered training for, but ask yourself why.

Terrorist attacks are not deterred by massive force against protestors.

Terrorist attacks are not deterred by whipping down any member of the press exercising "free speech".

Terrorist Attacks are now coming in the form of jackboots, pepper-spray and guns with badges on their chest and American flags on their shoulders.

Tim Hillery
Freedom Activist
Lewisville, TX

zzgolfer

Sep 04 2008, 06:16 PM

When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.
When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.
When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.
When they came for the Jews,
I remained silent;
I wasn't a Jew.
When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out

"First they came�" is a poem attributed to Pastor Martin Niem�ller (1892�1984) about the inactivity of German intellectuals following the Nazi rise to power and the purging of their chosen targets, group after group.

zzgolfer

Sep 04 2008, 06:24 PM

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3111/2828254133_ea32e1b23c_o.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/2828254133/)

Pizza God

Sep 04 2008, 06:25 PM

U.S. Constitution - Amendment I: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

this is one of the reasons I am posting this stuff here. If just one person watches this stuff and sees what I see, then it was worth my time.

I am not out looking for this stuff, most of it shows up in my "subscriptions" on YouTube from others who post them. Some come from email lists I am on.

Actually, I don't think I have researched any of this other than reading these articles.

Pizza God

Sep 04 2008, 06:29 PM

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/2828254133/" title="t1wide_palin_thur_cnn by john_zz_hansen, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3111/2828254133_ea32e1b23c_o.jpg" width="585" height="253" alt="t1wide_palin_thur_cnn" /></a>

Ok, even I will admit that is pretty good

Pizza God

Sep 04 2008, 08:07 PM

This is not America, but is what may happen someday if the police keep up there strong arm tactics.

Watch as this guy get rightfully tackled and what they do once 4 of them have him pinned down.

It seems there treatment of the guy was a little over the line (specially from a security guard)

Well that didn't sit well with several of the people in the stands and a small riot ensues.

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Ws-mn3M23dc&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Ws-mn3M23dc&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

Pizza God

Sep 06 2008, 01:53 AM

the video starts at where Rage Against the Machine leaves when the Police would not let them play.

This is actually several shot showing the peaceful protest and the Riot Police herding them like cattle.

Just after the 5 min mark, the camera guy films the Riot Policeman pull the pin and actually throw the tear gas into the peaceful crowd.

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/_dH9dfuePiw&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/_dH9dfuePiw&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

JHBlader86

Sep 06 2008, 02:10 AM

This is good stuff for my McCarthyism in Post 9/11 paper!

Pizza God

Sep 06 2008, 04:36 AM

I have hope for America.

Those Media outlets that were "Ruffed Up" by the FBI and Police were the New Media popping up all over the Internet.

I don't agree with there point of view all the time, but they do have a right of Freedom of the Press and Freedom of Speech. I mean those are in our Constitution aren't they????

It gives me hope that everything is recorded. Did you notice in that last video I posted, the Riot Police officer videoing the vidioer?

Even though I will agree video can be abused and made to look different that what actually occurred, at least it may help shed the light on what is going on in America.

It is all fueled by the internet. I was able to watch a lot of the Rally for the Republic because of streeming video from C-Span, I am able to go back and watch the Republican (and yes I watched a lot of the Democratic) conventions on YouTube (and other video sites)

anyways, it is late and time for bed.

Pizza God

Sep 06 2008, 06:44 PM

I don't think I posted this one yet, I don't agree with "Code Pink" but the treatment of this girl is unacceptable.

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/f1NupZxRCEg&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/f1NupZxRCEg&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

Pizza God

Sep 06 2008, 06:47 PM

Democracy Now reporting briefly on that last video, funny thing, she was arrested herself in those videos I already posted days later.
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/bWLcLB-KzOU&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/bWLcLB-KzOU&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

Pizza God

Sep 06 2008, 06:55 PM

Now I know nothing about this video, but you can see why the police act the way they do sometimes. We don't know who he is dragging, but some idiot attacking the police officer is just flat out wrong.

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Rn4z5Gs6bPk&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Rn4z5Gs6bPk&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

Pizza God

Sep 20 2008, 12:25 PM

This one starts off slow, but check out the mass arrest of park goers at the end. 298 people arrested for being in a park NOT demonstrating.

<embed src="http://blip.tv/play/8HTOkzuMlgs" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="852" height="510" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true"></embed>

Now tell me we are not living in a fascist state.

frolfdisc

Sep 21 2008, 10:14 AM

Thanks, Bryan.
I'm awake now.
I had no idea things had gotten this bad.
As Amy said, THIS IS UNACCEPTABLE!
:mad:
- JPB

JHBlader86

Sep 21 2008, 12:28 PM

As a journalist (photo to be specific) how my fellow journalists were treated at the RNC sickens me to my stomach. All those police officers specifically targeted journalists 1st hoping they wouldnt get proof of what they did to those protesting, and those simply standing around.

Every single one of those police officers violated the constitution, and are traitors to America and deserve to be shot.

frolfdisc

Sep 22 2008, 08:29 PM

deserve to be shot.

May be taking things just a bit too far, but I hear ya.

Pizza God

Sep 28 2008, 12:47 PM

Interesting

<object width="425" height="349"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/jYxTzDFofZQ&hl=en&fs=1&color1=0x006699&color2=0x54abd6&border=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/jYxTzDFofZQ&hl=en&fs=1&color1=0x006699&color2=0x54abd6&border=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="349"></embed></object>

Pizza God

Oct 12 2008, 02:44 PM

Cheye Calvo, the Mayor of Berwyn Heights, Maryland, found himself on the receiving end of a botched no-knock police raid.

He was cleared of any wrongdoing, but police never apologized for killing his dogs and posing a threat to his family.

<object width="425" height="349"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/hQdwM-HEyIU&hl=en&fs=1&color1=0x006699&color2=0x54abd6&border=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/hQdwM-HEyIU&hl=en&fs=1&color1=0x006699&color2=0x54abd6&border=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="349"></embed></object>

More local news on the subject web page (http://www.nbc4.com/topic/Cheye+Calvo/index.html)

zzgolfer

Oct 13 2008, 12:01 PM

Patriot Act,policy of preemptive war, U.S. troops on our streets for crowd control, Citizen I.D. cards, locator chips, survelience cameras, illegal wire tapping, waterboarding, electric shock,secret prisons, blackwater, corporate bail out,detention camps,threat of Marshall Law,illegal arrest of reporters,no fly lists,V.P.not part of the Executive branch,Treasury Secretary now above the law, Geneva Conventions ignored = Fascism is HERE.

bravo

Oct 13 2008, 12:05 PM

start cancelling all your contracts with big brother beginning with your birth cetificate, social security tracking number, national id or drivers license etc

Pizza God

Oct 19 2008, 07:29 PM

zzgolfer

Oct 23 2008, 05:32 PM

best of craigslist > SF bay area > "Dear Red States..." A Letter From The Blue!
Originally Posted: Fri, 24 Jun 11:54 PDT
"Dear Red States..." A Letter From The Blue!

Dear Red States...

We've decided we're leaving. We intend to form our own country, and
we're taking the other Blue States with us.

In case you aren't aware, that includes Hawaii, Oregon,Washington,
Minnesota, Wisconsin, Michigan, Illinois and all the Northeast. We
believe this split will be beneficial to the nation, and especially
to the people of the new country of New California.

To sum up briefly: You get Texas, Oklahoma and all the slave states.
We get stem cell research and the best beaches. We get Elliot
Spitzer. You get Ken Lay.

We get the Statue of Liberty. You get Dollywood.
We get Intel and Microsoft. You get WorldCom.
We get Harvard. You get Ole' Miss.
We get 85 percent of America's venture capital and entrepreneurs. You
get Alabama.
We get two-thirds of the tax revenue, you get to make the red states
pay their fair share.

Since our aggregate divorce rate is 22 percent lower than the
Christian Coalition's, we get a bunch of happy families. You get a
bunch of single moms.

Please be aware that Nuevo California will be pro-choice and
anti-war, and we're going to want all our citizens back from Iraq at
once. If you need people to fight, ask your evangelicals. They have
kids they're apparently willing to send to their deaths for no
purpose, and they don't care if you don't show pictures of their
children's caskets coming home. We do wish you success in Iraq, and
hope that the WMDs turn up, but we're not willing to spend our
resources in Bush's Quagmire.

With the Blue States in hand, we will have firm control of 80 percent
of the country's fresh water, more than 90 percent of the pineapple
and lettuce, 92 percent of the nation's fresh fruit, 95 percent of
America's quality wines (you can serve French wines at state dinners)
90 percent of all cheese, 90 percent of the high tech industry, most
of the U.S. low-sulfur coal, all living redwoods, sequoias and
condors, all the Ivy and Seven Sister schools, plus Harvard, Yale,
Stanford, Cal Tech and MIT.

With the Red States, on the other hand, you will have to cope with 88
percent of all obese Americans (and their projected health care
costs), 92 percent of all U.S. mosquitoes, nearly 100 percent of the
tornadoes, 90 percent of the hurricanes, 99 percent of all Southern
Baptists, virtually 100 percent of all televangelists, Rush Limbaugh,
Bob Jones University, Clemson and the University of Georgia.

We get Hollywood and Yosemite, thank you.

Additionally, 38 percent of those in the Red states believe Jonah was
actually swallowed by a whale, 62 percent believe life is sacred
unless we're discussing the death penalty or gun laws, 44 percent say
that evolution is only a theory, 53 percent that Saddam was involved
in 9/11 and 61 percent of you crazy b*****ds believe you are people
with higher morals then we lefties.

Peace out,
Blue States
/msgboard/images/graemlins/ooo.gif ;) :D:D

james_mccaine

Oct 23 2008, 05:39 PM

90% of the pineapples!!!!!!!! That is an odd boast. :D

Alacrity

Oct 23 2008, 06:04 PM

Dear Blue States:

Well, imagine our relief that you�ve decided to secede and form some sort of bathing-optional commune headquartered in California. The money we'll save in aspirin, now that we won�t have headaches from listening to your interminable whining, will be worth it to us alone.

We'll finally be rid of you lazy, moping, latte-sucking Streisand fans now that you're actually going to follow through--for once--on your promise to finally get off your butts and leave, as so many of you claimed you would every election cycle and then chickened out of actually doing. (Yeah, we�re looking at you, Alec Baldwin.)

But not so fast. You don�t get to take all the Blue States with you--just the Blue parts.

We hate to break it to you, but your Blue States aren�t actually "blue." Mostly, they�re states full of Red counties with pockets of Blue urban blight in them, who vote Democratic in such numbers that if the same results came out of a Third World country�which, come to think of it, many of the "Blue" counties pretty much are�we�d think it was fraud and send some election observers from the UN.

Even California is pretty much a Red State: Bush won 35 out of 58 counties, while Kerry won LA and San Francisco. You want 'em? we certainly won�t fight you for them but you're going to have to found New California without 35 of your most beautiful counties and your second-largest city. Sorry about that.

Nationally, Bush won over 2.5 million square miles of U.S. counties (and an extra three and a half million votes, but we won't rub that in.) Kerry won less than 600,000 square miles--meaning that in most states he was popular downtown and pretty much nowhere else. In other words, your guy won the places that people like him would get shot if he walked through them at night. Our guy won every place else.

So, the bottom line is that you don't get the Blue States. Those states have lots of towns and counties that would rather blow their dams and flood themselves out of existence rather than go with you. No, instead, you get the Blue Cities.

But wait�we really feel we owe you full disclosure on this exchange. This might come as an unpleasant surprise, but you don�t actually get the lower divorce and single-motherhood rates and all that other good stuff you think you're going to snag. Those are the conditions that are actually found out in the Red counties�not in the Blue cities, and you can't have them.

Instead you get the urban single moms, not the soccer moms; the drug addicts, not the doctors; the waiters, not the chefs. You get the fine service you've come to expect from the brutal and corrupt inner-city police departments. You get the abysmal literacy rates and schools that are more dangerous than most prisons. All in all, you get to take with you a public sector in most cities so unmanageable they make Mogadishu seem like a tidily run little municipality by comparison.

You get the labor union shakedown artists, "teachers" who can�t pass tests in their own subject, and city government leaders for whom graft, racial spoils systems, and outright theft are a way of life. They�re all very enthusiastic Blue voters, as you know, and we�re sure they�ll stampede their way to New California to start draining your wallets, wrecking your schools, and in general making a mess of your lives.

(And don't come complaining back to us when socialist central planning does for New California what it did for garden spots like East Berlin and Pyongyang. We're putting a strict visa system into place once you all go.)

We, on the other hand, get those Red city suburbs and rural districts. You know, the ones with the good schools, the high property values, the quiet streets and the sheriffs and cops who don�t need to walk around armored up like they�re about to storm the Sunni Triangle.

Oh and don�t concern yourself with our agricultural capacity after all, they don't call it "the breadbasket" for nothin'. We�ll keep right on producing the vast majority of wheat, corn, oats, rye, potatoes, soybeans, beef, chicken and pork.

We�ve always preferred a nice, unpretentious, frosty mug of brew anyway and hey, maybe you can make a salad with those pineapples, stem cells, and lettuce.

And don't even think about keeping the National Parks, the wide open spaces, all those water resources, and all the rest of America's natural splendor, since those are all pretty much located in Red counties.

Hell, we even get most of Oregon and Washington ...ain�t it ironic? You get the urban liberals in Portland and Seattle and their friends in important social organizations (like, say, drug-running street gangs) and we get the rest of the Northwest.

Ok by us; we�d be fools not to take you up on it.

Here�s how it will work; all of you Blue whiners, please feel free to look at a map of the electoral results county by county in each state, and take the people with you who�ve made it clear they�d like to go.

That means you get places like downtown Pittsburgh and Philadelphia, and we get to keep the rest of beautiful Pennsylvania, thanks.

You get to administer bloated public services to the violent, drug-addled, gunslinging populations of delightful inner-city sinkholes of poverty and corruption such as Miami, St. Louis,Atlanta and the ever-popular District of Columbia--which has been governed by liberals (and the occasional crackhead) for so long and so incompetently that any semblance of order has broken down (beyond the carefully guarded borders of your Georgetown bistros, natch) to the point where even the mayor once asked the President to have the city patrolled by National Guardsmen.

Lucky you, it's all yours--enjoy it in good health, and don�t forget to wear your Kevlar...Blue "voters" up there in Northeast DC tend to be jumpy on the ol' trigger finger.

In fact, all around our great nation, you get to keep all the Blue voters who�ve made urban war zones like downtown Detroit--a Blue bastion, of course--the proud showplaces they are today.

We get the rest of Blue states like Michigan and Wisconsin and Illinois and...well, frankly, just about every state in the Union with the exception of Hawaii and New England--and even there, we�ll just hang on to a couple of chunks of New Hampshire and Connecticut.

You�re especially more than welcome to Rhode Island, which will immediately set up some sort of money-laundering scheme and bilk the rest of you once it has been incorporated into whatever sort of muddle-headed utopia you�re trying to create.

The former mayor of Providence should be out of Federal prison in time to join your Politburo and help you get things set up--for a small consulting fee, of course

If you would please, take another look at the list of best beaches and notice what color states they are in. We'll miss the Hawaiian beaches, but since long stretches of coastline from New Jersey down to Florida and yes, even in Southern California (including San Diego, thanks) are actually in Red counties, we'll be fine.

Sure, we get the rednecks and holy rollers. But since you're apparently willing to trade them for the gangs and psychopaths terrorizing your Blue cities, what can we say? You want the Crips and the Bloods in low riders raking your streets with automatic gunfire, and you're offering us Bubba heading off to church in his pickup?

Hey, a deal's a deal. Done.

True, you also get Manhattan, but darn the luck, you have to take the rest of the city, including the Bronx, Queens, and Brooklyn too, as well as Long Island, which is enough to almost make us feel sorry for you all out there in New California. (Almost.)

For our part, we�ll take most of the rest of gorgeous New York State, although you get the scam artists who infest the legislature in Albany.

And since for some unfathomable reason you actually want Elliot Spitzer, we�ll buy his plane ticket as a gesture of goodwill.

So that�s the deal. You get the cities, with all the crime, crack mommies, and corruption you can stand.

And sure, you get many of the elite colleges too, with the professors who think that terrorists in Fallujah are freedom fighters and that the people who worked in the Twin Towers on 9/11 were no better than Nazis�forgive us for not lamenting over this loss.

We get the suburbs, the countryside, and all the other beautiful places that remain unspoiled by liberal hypocrisy and addle-brained social experimentation.

And we'd like a favor, too: please keep your sky-high tax and crime rates, since we're happy to have the corporations and jobs that continue to flee your Blue cities into our Red counties. It's much appreciated, since our unemployment rates, to say nothing of our crime, single-parenting, and illiteracy rates, are far lower than yours.

Oh, and one last thing. We get the U.S. military, too. Did we mention that part? (You may have forgotten that they're volunteers, and most are happy Red state voters.)

Not to worry, though, since we�re sure that Islamic fundamentalist terrorists will be more than happy to reach an accommodation with a society that embraces radical feminism, [censored] marriage, gun control, hostility to organized religion of any kind, and Salman Rushdie. Good luck with that.

But one day when some misogynist Saudi freak--who no doubt will sneak into your country by strolling over the northern border after a few years sucking on the Canadian welfare system you all admire so much--blows up a couple kilos of plutonium on Sunset Boulevard, go send Sean Penn to ask the French for help. We�ll be busy that day.

Sincerely,

The Red States

PS: You can keep the marijuana. You're going to need it, since selling it is one of the last stable industries left in Blue counties.

Alacrity

Oct 23 2008, 06:05 PM

Just equal posting......

sschumacher

Oct 23 2008, 06:21 PM

Wow!!!....Truely a country divided. :(

What is your problem with pot?....Eighty percent of my DG friends both red and blue swear it makes them play better? /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

qdbailey2

Oct 23 2008, 09:42 PM

Hey ZZ. Texas, Oklahoma & Louisiana also control all oil & gas. So laugh it up while you walk to Starbucks

gnduke

Oct 24 2008, 02:12 AM

Wow!!!....Truely a country divided.

That's the biggest problem.

No matter who wins, America losses.

Fossil

Oct 24 2008, 07:42 AM

Wow!!!....Truely a country divided.

That's the biggest problem.

No matter who wins, America losses.

Hit the nail right on the head there!

All those other people better get with the program.

bravo

Oct 24 2008, 10:24 AM

a d ivided people are easy to govern wether justly or not.

Alacrity

Oct 24 2008, 10:26 AM

Pizza God

Oct 24 2008, 12:03 PM

Wow!!!....Truely a country divided. :(

What is your problem with pot?....Eighty percent of my DG friends both red and blue swear it makes them play better? /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

My biggest problem is that your "80%" friends that are both red and blue, that swear it makes them play better, smoke it around my kids that already have a enough peer pressure to join them in using drugs. I don't care if you smoke pot or not, once you are at the age where you can make that decision and suffer the consequences. I do care when you decide to smoke it around my kids and start to influence them at an age it would be best they decide to wait. More power to the smoker. My biggest problem is the smokers that make it "cool" to be high.

My biggest problem is the your idiot friends who insist on smoking at the course.

We have lost disc golf courses because of these guys.

Now if your friends are the smokers who keep it in the privacy of there own home, then I have ZERO problem with them.

One more thing, I was 4 strokes back from the lead at the Arkansas State Championship back in the early 90's. The guy in the lead proceeds to light up on one of the back holes. I was [censored]........ at least until he proceeded to loose a stroke a hole for the next 6 holes. I won :D

Now that was poetic justice.

Now before we turn this thread into another smoker vs non-smoker thread, lets get back to realizing what our government is doing to us.

sschumacher

Oct 24 2008, 12:53 PM

Well I did it when I was in high school but when I got older I gave it up. It didn�t make sense to risk my job over it.

What your kids choose to do will probably depend on the values they learn from you. Good luck. Even then you can�t protect them all the time though and I agree the peer pressure is out there but it�s not just pot. Don�t forget about the legal drug alcohol.

Kids already seems to know more about what�s out there than I do and I�m glad that I grew up in a time where I could go to school and not worry about who�s packing a gun or whether the color of my shirt was going to get me shot.

I thought life was bad in the sixties when Johnson was president. When Martin Luther got shot I remember my mother fearing that north side Tulsa was going to riot and burn down our home. Then Robert Kennedy gets shot and little by little America�s innocence I felt as a kid just seemed to peel away, but as a kid I still had hope and when I compare today to back then, it seems like it was a lot easier back then.

I�ve gone red all my life but this year after watching my 401K lose 27%, I�m thinking �Ok, the Red guys had their chance. Let the blue guys run things for a while.�

And BTW, if I�m going to have to continue to listen to bad news about the war, the economy, and how the whole world hates us, I rather hear it from Harrison Ford or Bill Pullman. Both of those guys seem to have more experience at �acting Presidential� then our choices this year.

Living in Oklahoma a �blue� vote really doesn�t count for anything though because this state always seems to go �red� in presidential races. The blue guys never campaign here and it�s probably due to Oklahoma�s proximity to you Texans. You guys are killing it for everybody up here. ;)

I�m tired of hearing about �Joe the Plumber�. What about �Furdog the Okie�s� needs. If I could have talked to Obama on national TV in my neighborhood then maybe you all would be sending me a dollar to pay off my back taxes. :confused:....Ok sorry. That comment was sour grapes. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Joe should give up buying the plumber�s business and buy a soup kitchen like me. Business is picking up and I don�t think I have to worry about earning more than $250,000. :)

zzgolfer

Oct 24 2008, 01:40 PM

Antiwar vets attacked by police outside debate
Lucy Herschel and Hannah Wolfe report on how police met antiwar dissent with batons and horses at the last presidential debate in New York.

October 17, 2008

Nassau County police injured several people in their assault on antiwar protests outside the presidential debate

WHILE BARACK Obama and John McCain were getting makeup touch-ups for their Wednesday night debate at Hofstra University, in Hempstead, N.Y., police outside made sure that the voices of antiwar veterans wouldn't be heard.

Officers of the Nassau County Police Department reacted with reckless violence to a protest organized by Iraq Veterans Against the War (IVAW) outside the debate site. Among several people injured in the assault, former Army Sgt. Nick Morgan was knocked unconscious and his cheekbone broken when he was trampled by a police horse.

"We were there to force the issue that the leaders of this nation are not listening to or are not caring about veterans," said IVAW member Matthis Chiroux, who was among several veterans and activists arrested. "And they couldn't have done a better job of proving us right. They stomped my friend Nick's face into Jell-o. I put this on both candidates, on the major press and on the Nassau County police."

The IVAW had sent a request to the debate moderator that they be allowed to ask their own questions of the candidates at the Hofstra event, but this was ignored--and so the third and final presidential debate passed without an antiwar voice being represented.

That night, IVAW organized a nonviolent demonstration to request entry into the debate. Marching in uniform and in formation, IVAW members led several hundred activists to an intersection in front of the Hofstra campus gates--where they were confronted by an army of mounted police and riot cops.

Ten IVAW members were arrested, apparently for no more than insisting on their right to be heard. Mounted police then pushed the crowd back onto the sidewalk, recklessly pulling their horses around and at times backing them into the crowd. The police continued to drive protesters back, pinning the crowd up against a fence.

Riot cops reached past the IVAW members at the front of the crowd, grabbing protesters behind them and dragging them into the street. A mounted cop leapt with his horse onto the sidewalk and trampled protesters, including Morgan.

Chiroux said the police took Morgan aside and bandaged him, but then placed him in a truck with other arrestees to go to processing and detention.

"He was incoherent, he couldn't even say his name," Chiroux said. "He had blood running down his face. We kept telling the police he needed immediate medical attention. One officer said, with a smirk, 'Get him to say it. He has to say it.' I said, 'He can't even talk!' The officer said, 'Tough luck.' Finally, we said, 'Nick, you have to say I need to go to the hospital.' We got him to say it, and they took him in."

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

CHIROUX SAID that while they were detained, he and his fellow IVAW members were verbally harassed by police. "They called us traitors, cowards, idiots," he said.

Three women IVAW members who had been arrested were handcuffed to a bench, and "the male officers kept coming closer to them, verbally sexually harassing them," Chiroux said. "One kept holding up Marlisa's ID to her face and saying, 'Wow, you look like you came out of a Barbie magazine.'"

Morgan was brought back from the hospital, still incoherent and in great pain. He was left chained to a bench for five hours without further medical attention, Chiroux said. IVAW members repeatedly asked officers for their names (they weren't wearing badges) or to contact lawyers--they were refused on all counts.

When most of the IVAW members were finally released at 2:30 a.m. (according to reports, one vet remained in custody as this report was written), they went, still in uniform, to a nearby diner--where the same group of cops who had detained them were eating.

Chiroux went up to them and asked again for their names. One officer "got up in my face," he said, "screaming and waving his finger at me and saying, 'I'm gonna kick your [censored] if you keep asking that.'"

The IVAW members say they wanted to ask Barak Obama if he would support soldiers who refuse to serve in Iraq, since in the past, he had called the Iraq war illegal. They also wanted to question John McCain about his votes to cut veterans benefits.

"Neither of the candidates have shown real support for soldiers and veterans," said Jason Lemieux, a former sergeant in the Marine Corps and a member of IVAW who served three tours in Iraq.

"We came here to try and get serious questions answered--questions that we, as veterans of the Iraq war, have a right to ask--but instead we were arrested. We believe that the time has come to end this war and bring our troops home, and we will be pushing for that no matter what happens in this election."

IVAW members thanked activists for coming to support the march and for enduring the police violence.

"For many of our members, this was their first protest," said Hannah Fleury of the Campus Antiwar Network, which mobilized chapters from as far away as Boston for this protest. "Now that we see what we're up against, we're going to fight even harder on our campuses to end the war, and to support the veterans."

The New York Civil Liberties Union is asking for an immediate investigation into the use of horses at the demonstration. "It is shocking that someone who served his country would be treated so disgracefully by the Nassau County Police Department," Tara Keenan-Thomson, director of the group's Nassau County chapter, said in a press release.

As Chiroux said, "Both candidates claim they support veterans. And this is how we got supported last night: by being pushed back, trampled and arrested.

"We demonstrated to the country and the world that democracy is not dead in the United States--that the people in the U.S. still ultimately hold the power. They can try to force our voices to be silent, to block us out of the media, but we won't let these people shut us down."

Pizza God

Oct 24 2008, 05:24 PM

Thanks for that article, that goes with the video I posted a few days ago.

bravo

Oct 25 2008, 09:22 AM

I had a dream the other night I didn't understand,
A figure walking through the mist with a flintlock in hand.
His clothes were torn and dirty as he stood there by my bed.
He took off his 3 cornered hat, and speaking low, he said:

"We fought a Revolution to secure our liberty,
We wrote the Constitution as a shield from tyranny.
For future generations this legacy we gave,
In this land of the free and home of the brave.

The freedom we secured for you, we hoped you'd always keep,
But tyrants labored endlessly while your parents were asleep.
Your freedom gone, your courage lost, you're no more than a slave,
In this land of the free and home of the brave.

You buy permits to travel and permits to own a gun,
Permits to start a business, or to build yourself a home.
On land that you believe you own, you pay a yearly rent.
Although you have no voice in choosing how the money's spent.

Your children must attend a school that doesn't educate.
Your Christian values can't be taught, according to the State.
You read about the current news, in a regulated press.
You pay a tax you do not owe, to please the IRS.

Your money is no longer made of silver or of gold.
You trade your wealth for paper, so your life can be controlled.
You pay for crimes that make our Nation turn from God in shame
You've taken Satan's number, as you've traded in your name.

You've given government control to those who do you harm,
So they can padlock churches, and steal the family farm,
And keep our country deep in debt, put men of God in jail,
Harass your fellow countrymen, while corrupted courts prevail.

Your public servants don't uphold the solemn oath they've sworn.
Your daughters visit doctors, so their children won't be born.
Your leaders ship artillery, and guns to foreign shores,
And send your sons to slaughter, fighting other people's wars.

Can you regain the freedom for which we fought and died?
Or don't you have the courage, or the faith to stand with pride?
Are there no more values for which you'll fight to save?
Or do you wish your children to fear and be a slave?

People of the Republic, arise and take a stand!
Defend the Constitution, the Supreme Law of the Land!
Preserve our Great Republic, and God Given Right!
And pray to God to keep the torch of Freedom burning bright!

As I awoke he vanished in the mist from whence he came.
His words were true, we are not free, we have ourselves to blame.
For even now as tyrants, trample each God given right,
We only watch and tremble, too afraid to stand and fight.

If he stood by your bedside, in a dream, while you're asleep,
And wonders what remains of our Rights he fought to keep,
What would be your answer, if he called out from the grave,
Is this still the land of the free and home of the brave?"

Author unknown

Alacrity

Oct 27 2008, 12:06 PM

Scott,

You are correct, it depends on what your kids are taught and how they are raised, however I enjoy playing disc golf and I enjoy it when my boys play disc golf. So I talk disc golf up and at the same time tell them not to drink or smoke (cigs or otherwise) and still, if they opt to play Rec or Int instead of junior there are people either drunk or stoned, who are drinking or smoking before, after and sometimes during the round. Heck the last tournament I took my 16 year old to he had over 4 or 5 people ask him if he knew where to get some bud from. So I talk up disc golf and he associates pot with it as well. Therefore disc golf and dope must mix.

As for your 401K loosing money, we can blame both parties for that. President Carter insituted sub-prime mortgage lending, President Clinton has admitted that Congress and the Senate worked bills through to force banks to make loans to people who could not afford them. On the otherside President Bush has reacted poorly to the problems that have occurred. I believe greed from both Reds and Blues propagated the problems. Truely both sides have blood on their hands, and for each party to continue to blame the other is ridiculous.

What we need is a candidate that follows the constitution and forgets his/her own political desires. I don't think that is Obama and I don't think McCain is strong enough either. I was not a Ron Paul fan, but I am now seriously rethinking that.

james_mccaine

Oct 27 2008, 01:13 PM

When did the hardcore right become such whiney pansies?

Nothing against this person's values, as they are shared by more than he or she obviously thinks, but this guy needs to move on with life, and get over his "grievances."

I can't practice my religion!!!!
I can't own and use my guns!!!!!
I can't develop my land in any way I choose!!!!!
I have to pay taxes!!!!!

He needs to wake up and realize that no one is after his religion, or his guns. The biggest bogus bogeymen in politics today. And there is a need for regulation and taxes. Any honest person recognizes this.

Fact is, this branch of conservatives have become the weakest people amongst us. That used to be the exclusive domain of the left. My, how times have changed.

gnduke

Oct 27 2008, 03:12 PM

The problem is that Obama has the skills to be a great president, but seems to lack the internal compass needed to be a great leader. I would have expected a person of his political lineage to have the far left associations that he has been shown to have and am very uncomfortable that he feels the need to hide them. I am more uncomfortable the he has blatantly lied about his relationships and then disowned anyone that was politically embarrassing.

I would feel much better about someone that was clear on his influences and convictions. There is no politician that I agree with completely. As it is, I have no firm idea where his instincts are likely to lead him. I fear that his basic tendencies are to the extreme left, but the president alone does not have a lot of domestic power. The thing that worries me the most is that he has never stood against the democratic party power brokers. I know do not want to see the policies that Pelosi, Reid and Frank can come up with for him to rubber stamp into law.

james_mccaine

Oct 27 2008, 03:43 PM

Well, I was never sure of his "lineage," so I listened to him and read his books.

All this stuff about hiding "associations" is nonsense imo. A double standard. I no more think Reverend Wright represents Obama than some right wing kook preacher represents McCain. The Ayer's thing is flat out loony. As people have correctly pointed out, why don't people question McCain's association with G Gordon Liddy or some other fringe player McCain was on a Board with? It makes as much sense.

I predict here and now, that if Obama is fortunate enough to win, he will be solidly right of the house and senate: a moderating influence in the government. The right (the responsible right) will have far more say when he is president than the left ever had when W was in charge.

Anyone who reads non-partisan articles about Obama, or listens to non-partisans who have worked with him, or just listens honestly to Obama himself will realize that Obama is hardly some flaming liberal. He's a pragmatist mostly, sometimes left, sometimes not, but mostly he is without strong ideologies.

Alacrity

Oct 27 2008, 04:25 PM

Not an argument, just a question, but didn't Obama announce he was going to run for office from Ayers home? I will admit I could be wrong. I am not an Obama fan (or McCain for that matter), but I have have corrected several of my co-workers on some false rumors against Obama. I had heard he announced from Ayers house and has subsequently said he had nothing to to do Ayers. Just asking.

kkrasinski

Oct 27 2008, 06:33 PM

Ayers hosted a small gathering of about a dozen or so people including Obama and State Senator Alice Palmer in 1995. Palmer intorduced Obama to the group as her successor for the '96 Democratic Primary. Obama's campaign was formally announced and endorsed by Palmer on a later date at a Ramada Inn.

Obama has never denied working with Ayers. He has denied anything resembling a close relationship.

Factcheck.org article on Ayers - Obama relationship (http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/he_lied_about_bill_ayers.html).

Pizza God

Oct 27 2008, 11:41 PM

I was not a Ron Paul fan, but I am now seriously rethinking that.

Welcome to the dark side hahahahahaha :D

Pizza God

Oct 27 2008, 11:52 PM

He needs to wake up and realize that no one is after his religion, or his guns. The biggest bogus bogeymen in politics today. And there is a need for regulation and taxes. Any honest person recognizes this.

Really, do you realize that the ACLU and others are trying to remove "God" from everywhere in public???? From Nativity showing to even a Christmas tree at the department store.

Guns??? You have to be kidding me on this one. Did you not see what happened in the aftermath of Katrina, do I need to repost the video of the National Guard taking people's LEGAL guns away from them leaving them unprotected?? There are several Democrats who also favor removing your right to keep any gun other than a hunting rifle, and even then, they will make you register it so they know who has guns.

As far as regulations and Taxes, we have TOO MANY. I would agree that some regulations may actually be good, but any time the government is involved, the outcome is rarely good.

Taxes, yes we should pay taxes to build roads, pay for local and even national protection.

However, we should not be paying taxes to the Federal government for welfare and other things that should be locally done.

kkrasinski

Oct 28 2008, 12:36 AM

Really, do you realize that the ACLU and others are trying to remove "God" from everywhere in public???? From Nativity showing to even a Christmas tree at the department store.

Please show me where the ACLU is doing these things you claim. Oh, you'll find plenty of examples where the ACLU opposes government sponsored displays, but that's not what you said, is it? Are you aware that in 2001 the ACLU joined Jerry Falwell in a successful lawsuit (http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2002/june10/7.15.html) against Virginia to allow religious organizations to incorporate? Church, State, Religion and the ACLU (http://www.acluva.org/opeds/Feb72002church.html)

Pizza God

Oct 28 2008, 02:59 AM

kkrasinski

Oct 28 2008, 09:30 AM

I see. What groups are those?

Alacrity

Oct 28 2008, 10:06 AM

Obama has never denied working with Ayers. He has denied anything resembling a close relationship.

Factcheck is not necessarily very thorough... see http://www.noquarterusa.net/blog/2008/08...ers-connection/ (http://www.noquarterusa.net/blog/2008/08/12/the-obama-ayers-top-ten-highlights-of-the-20-year-obama-ayers-connection/)

1. Chicago Annenberg Challenge, which Ayers founded and Obama and Ayers co-chaired for five years, raising and spending at least $110 million in an effort to bolster a �radical� (Ayers� word) reform program in the Chicago Public Schools from 1994 to 2001

2. The Woods Fund financed the hiring of Obama in 1985 by the Developing Communities Project.

According to The Nation: �The Woods Fund, in many ways, is responsible for helping start Obama as an organizer and shaping his political identity. In 1985 the foundation gave a $25,000 grant to the Developing Communities Project (aka the �DCP�), which hired Obama, at 24, as an organizer on Chicago�s economically depressed South Side.�

The Woods Fund was founded by the Woods family which owned the Illinois-based Sahara Coal Company, a major supplier of coal from its mines to major Illinois power companies. Commonwealth Edison, the giant Chicago-based electric power company was headed by Thomas Ayers, father of Bill Ayers.
Obama served on the board of the Woods Fund from 1993 until 2002. Bill Ayers joined the board of the Fund in 1999 and continues to serve on the board today. He chaired the board for two years during that time.

and so on ......

The point I was trying to make is that Obama appears to be misrepresenting the truth to distance himself from baggage. Granted it could be circumstantial, but he has done it several times now, his pastor is a good example. Or should I say ex-pastor.

sschumacher

Oct 28 2008, 10:19 AM

The point I was trying to make is that Obama appears to be misrepresenting the truth to distance himself from baggage.

What are the odds he has been associated with Monica? :o:D

james_mccaine

Oct 28 2008, 10:19 AM

Oh, you'll find plenty of examples where the ACLU opposes government sponsored displays,

That is what I am talking about with the ACLU, it is the "other" groups that work to get Christianity removed from society.

"Christianity removed from society." Is this a joke? Christians in America persecuted?????? That is so dishonest, and a great example of feeling offended, and screaming at the top of your lungs over nothing at all.

Christianity dominates American religion. Try to exclusively put some muslim symbols, or jewish displays on the courthouse steps, then you will one angry freaking mob, with their guns of course.

Besides, these displays, or prayers at football games do not impede you from practicing your faith, they prevent you from using government enterprises to promote your faith at the expense of others. When the cops are in front of your chuch, preventing worship, or at your kitchen table preventing prayer, let me know. Until then, quit whining, it is offensive.

As to guns, maybe if you were from somewhere else, I might consider your claim, but you are from Texas. Everyone has guns, and I have never seen any movement to curtail that. Don't give me some isolated person's wish as evidence. You know that there has been no concerted political movement to take guns from people. It is all a bogeyman. It used to be a bogeyman used as a real means to protect rights of gun ownership, now it just another excuse to whine.

james_mccaine

Oct 28 2008, 10:33 AM

Jerry, are you sure about those facts. Wasn't the educational board where Obama and Ayers served, founded by a republican, and they served with Reaganites on the board also. Real radical. I'm doubt they had Huey Newton pictures on the wall.

As to the rest, it is tiring trying to provide truth to those predisposed not to believe it, but his community organizing was simply community organizing. It was not some black power thing, or pinko indocrination, just finding out what folks needed and trying to assist and empower them to that end. Y'all act as if he should be ashamed of that.

kkrasinski

Oct 28 2008, 10:35 AM

You're kidding, right? You quote a conservative blogger (Steve Diamond) as an objective authority? The same Steve Diamond who recently wrote (http://globallabor.blogspot.com/) "Rather than award the Nobel to Obamabot liberal Paul Krugman whose economic theory underpins modern mercantilism (and thus heightens the prospect of global trade wars leading to real wars) the prize should have gone to the brilliant mathematician, Benoit Mandelbrot." (emphasis added)

Did you read the FactCheck article? An exerpt:

"According to an Obama spokesman, the two men first met in 1995, when Obama was tapped to chair the board of the newly formed Chicago Annenberg Challenge. Ayers had been instrumental in creating the organization, which was to dispense grants for projects that would improve Chicago's schools.

The Challenge was one of 18 projects supported by a $500 million grant announced at a White House ceremony Dec. 18, 1993, by the Annenberg Foundation, founded four years earlier by Philadelphia publisher Walter Annenberg. It was the largest single gift ever made to public education in America. The Chicago project received a $49.2 million grant in 1995, and officials administering the grant funds at Brown University announced at the time that the Chicago proposal was developed through discussions among "a broad-based coalition of local school council members, teachers, principals, school reform groups, union representatives and central office staff" convened by three educators - one of whom was Ayers. Mayor Richard M. Daley, a Democrat, and Gov. Jim Edgar, a Republican, took part in a ceremony announcing the grant.

There are other connections between Obama and Ayers: The same year the two men met through the Annenberg Challenge, Ayers hosted a meet-and-greet coffee for Obama, who was running for state Senate and who lived three blocks away from him. Obama and Ayers also were on the board of an antipoverty charity, the Woods Fund of Chicago, where their service overlapped from 2000 to 2002. And Ayers contributed $200 to Obama's campaign for the Illinois state Senate on March 2, 2001."

More to the point, have you found any direct Obama quotes denying any of this?

Alacrity

Oct 28 2008, 10:43 AM

Guys, one of you points out that he did serve with Ayers on the board and the other attacks the source. Obama does know Ayers and there is every indication he knows him well. Instead of then saying that he knew him and had worked with him he downplayed it. Yes the source is a conservative talking head, but the time they spent together is a fact not fiction and Obama appears to be distancing himself. I could care less if he spent time with Ayers. Both of you misunderstand, it is the back pedaling that bothers me.

Now I do not agree with his politics, but that is another matter.

james_mccaine

Oct 28 2008, 11:01 AM

What backpedaling? He doesn't deny that he knows him, he just denies that he "pals around with him" or that the guy advises him or in any way represents his views. I mean he knows the guy. So what? I'm sure McCain has had peripheral relationships with sketchy folks also.

Why do you focus on these associations with Obama and ignore them with McCain?

Who among us hasn't been associated with sketchy characters in our life? Ever been to a disc golf tournament? That guy I saw you talking to or serving in the club with was convicted of a crime, so do you "pal around with criminals"? That is how bogus this is.

jamie

Oct 28 2008, 11:21 AM

nice that's what i was just about to ask---Jerry, do you have anybody you hung around with when you were younger that you're not too proud or have distanced yourself from now---think about it

rollinghedge

Oct 28 2008, 12:00 PM

http://leftwingconspiracy.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/motivator9436376.jpg

tbender

Oct 28 2008, 12:11 PM

I'm still waiting for McCain to return the Annenberg donation to his campaign...

As has been stated, the Annenbergs have connections to Bill Ayers too.

The day liberals try to repeal the 2nd amendment is the day after conservatives get Roe v Wade overturned...and neither will ever happen.

Pizza God

Oct 28 2008, 01:39 PM

The day liberals try to repeal the 2nd amendment is the day after conservatives get Roe v Wade overturned...and neither will ever happen.

At least the Supreme court recent overturned the Washington DC law on handguns.

Next step, admit that Roe vs Wade was legislation from the bench and should be over turned and the mater would be back in the hands of the states where it should be.

Alacrity

Oct 28 2008, 02:03 PM

I still believe you guys do not understand what I am saying. Obama has claimed several things about Ayers including that he did not know of Ayers history as a terrorist and that his relationship was very casual, to the point of just knowing him from his neighborhood, "a guy who lives in my neighborhood," was his response. This is not a true statement. Now is there anything wrong with knowing him, I am not sure there is. As Jamie said, we can all look back and see we had some acquantances that we are not happy about today. We all have known someone we could go back and say that that was not a good person. However, I did not even say Ayers was bad, though I disagree with what he did years ago and what he has said when he said he should have bombed more. Even Hillary said it was a bad association. I think Obama is wrong to say he barely knew him. I would have a bit more respect for him if he said he had worked with him on several commitees and that while he supports a lot of Ayers ideas about education he does not agree with the terrorism he was involved with.

Next consider Rashid Khalidi. In Obama's words:
"You mentioned Rashid Khalidi, who is a professor at Columbia. I do know him because he talked at the University of Chicago and he is Palestinian, and I do know him and I have had conversations." 

The LA Times reported that the Obama-Khalidi friendship was much more than just casual. Once again virtually in Obama's words:

 Speaking to the crowd, Obama reminisced about meals prepared by Khalidi's wife, Mona, and conversations that had challenged his thinking.

His many talks with the Khalidis, Obama said, had been "consistent reminders to me of my own blind spots and my own biases. . . . It's for that reason that I'm hoping that, for many years to come, we continue that conversation -- a conversation that is necessary not just around Mona and Rashid's dinner table," but around "this entire world." 

Obama was involved in raising money for and received money from Rashid as well. The reason Obama is distancing himself from these two individuals would appear to be their involvement in terrorist activities. You see Khalidis, a Palestian was also reportedly a director of the official PLO press agency WAFA in Beirut from 1976 to 1982, while the PLO committed scores of anti-Western attacks and was labeled by the U.S. as a terror group.

Next we have Obama's Pastor, Rev. Jeremiah Wright. Obama denies knowing the church's doctrine, though the Rev Wright has been teaching this for years. Go back and listen to any of the published sermon's and replace his references to African Americans with white Americans and you will be outraged. I have attended several African American churches before and never heard the hate of the white man as Rev. Wright preached.

My issue is not necessarily with the people he hangs out with, it is his denying being involved with them, though from some of their history I can see why he would.

rollinghedge

Oct 28 2008, 02:20 PM

MR. STEPHANOPOULOS: Senator, if you get the nomination, you'll have to -- (applause) -- (inaudible).

I want to give Senator Clinton a chance to respond, but first a follow-up on this issue, the general theme of patriotism in your relationships. A gentleman named William Ayers, he was part of the Weather Underground in the 1970s. They bombed the Pentagon, the Capitol and other buildings. He's never apologized for that. And in fact, on 9/11 he was quoted in The New York Times saying, "I don't regret setting bombs; I feel we didn't do enough."

An early organizing meeting for your state senate campaign was held at his house, and your campaign has said you are friendly. Can you explain that relationship for the voters, and explain to Democrats why it won't be a problem?

SEN. OBAMA: George, but this is an example of what I'm talking about.

This is a guy who lives in my neighborhood, who's a professor of English in Chicago, who I know and who I have not received some official endorsement from. He's not somebody who I exchange ideas from on a regular basis.

And the notion that somehow as a consequence of me knowing somebody who engaged in detestable acts 40 years ago when I was 8 years old, somehow reflects on me and my values, doesn't make much sense, George.

The fact is, is that I'm also friendly with Tom Coburn, one of the most conservative Republicans in the United States Senate, who during his campaign once said that it might be appropriate to apply the death penalty to those who carried out abortions.

Do I need to apologize for Mr. Coburn's statements? Because I certainly don't agree with those either.

So this kind of game, in which anybody who I know, regardless of how flimsy the relationship is, is somehow -- somehow their ideas could be attributed to me -- I think the American people are smarter than that. They're not going to suggest somehow that that is reflective of my views, because it obviously isn't.

source (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/16/us/politics/16text-debate.html?_r=1&pagewanted=print&oref=slogin)

Pizza God

Oct 28 2008, 02:32 PM

Talk about thread drift. :mad:

Take the "next president talk" back to the "Next President" Thread.

Post examples of our government stepping on the Constitution on this thread.

(how ironic of me to jump on thread drifting :D)

zzgolfer

Oct 28 2008, 02:36 PM

www.alternet.org (http://www.alternet.org)
Dear Conservatives, Will You Help Save the Republic from Military Takeover?
By Naomi Wolf, AlterNet. Posted October 18, 2008.

Dear Conservative America:
I am reaching out with a warning to you that is as heartfelt as the one I have been bringing my fellow citizens for months. But you are the most important audience of all for this, because you hold the key to whether or not we can save our republic in time.
I have been arguing that we are seeing the classic building blocks being laid for a police state: My thesis in The End of America: A Letter of Warning to a Young Patriot is that we are seeing the classic 10 steps being set in place that always underlie a violent police state. My argument in its sequel, Give Me Liberty, is that we must rise up as tactically and effectively as patriots to stop this suppression of freedom.
I hope to persuade you of the profound moral repugnance a true conservative should feel for the plans that are afoot in this nation.
What is the newest news? The Army Times declared that "beginning Oct. 1 for 12 months, the (1st Brigade Combat Team of the 3rd Infantry Division) will be under the day-to-day control of U.S. Army North" ... "the first time an active unit has been given a dedicated assignment to NorthCom, a joint command established in 2002 to provide command and control for federal homeland defense efforts and coordinate defense support of civil authorities."
They are tasked to help with "civil unrest and crowd control or to deal with potentially horrific scenarios such as massive poisoning and chaos in response to a chemical, biological, radiological, nuclear or high-yield explosive, or CBRNE, attack �"
What this means is that U.S. citizens can now be "controlled" by the military on our streets through technologies -- such as Tasers and rubber bullets -- that terrify and torment and stun but do not usually kill citizens the way that citizens in Iraq are terrified, tormented and stunned by U.S. military forces.
Who will be "subdued," according to the blueprint, if and when this military unit takes to our streets? The first group of Americans to be subdued is likely to be protesters; then, going by the blueprint, you will see the military using Tasers to subdue people who ask whether there is a warrant permitting agents to burst into their home, as happened at the RNC. People could be Tasered while protesting when voters are turned away by the wholesale purges of quarter-millions of voters from the rolls that Robert Kennedy Jr. has been documenting; or, there is likely to be Tasering and other kinds of subjugation of people protesting corrupted voting machines.
Why does this undermine American freedom? Federal laws, most notably the Posse Comitatus Act, have prohibited the military from being deployed within the United States for 200 years. Yet the Army Times reports that "expectations are that another, as yet unnamed, active-duty brigade will take over and that the mission will be a permanent one."
The founders sought to keep soldiers off our streets because they knew how easily a standing army could subdue a population. That's why the National Guard is answerable primarily to the governors of states and hence to the people of the United States. But the military is answerable to the commander in chief. These are the president's troops. The president now has a personal army. One definition of a police state is when the leader has seized control of the military to police citizens domestically.
Why listen to me? Not because I am a genius, but because this blueprint is so very predictive. Listen to me because everything that I warned would happen, according to the historical record, has happened, and I have documented the borne-out evidence of the crisis in Give Me Liberty.
I warned that the executive would soon simply start to subvert the rule of law. See what the administration has done in response to congressional subpoenas.
I warned that the torture we saw in U.S.-held prisons was certainly directed from the top -- a fact that Jane Mayer and others have fully documented since.
I warned that within six months we would see the definition of "terrorist" expanded so that the "terrorists" in the news would soon look like heartland, mainstream Americans. We now hear that mere protesters at the RNC in Minnesota have been charged as terrorists.
Another definition of a police state is when the leader seeks to seize control of big chunks of the national economy -- with no oversight or accountability. Sound familiar?
Consider this, conservative business leaders: What matters to a would-be dictator -- look at Latin America -- is that the leader is able to intervene in the economy and essentially use his clout and his cronies to intimidate competitors or manipulate the economic playing field. Dictators do not care if there is no middle class anymore in their countries, or no upper-middle class. Indeed, they are well served by the kinds of economies you see all over Latin America in which the cronies of the regime vacuum up wealth and intimidate their less-connected peers, in which the middle and upper-middle classes sink into misery while the poor simply suffer with little infrastructure to support them.
The coup has already taken place in terms of the laws that have been passed. With wiretapping, the mass arrests of protesters and the directive that allows the executive to seize control of all systems of government in the event of an emergency, the coup is in place, ready only for activation.
Is the Bush team seeking to calm or whip up fear in the face of the economic meltdown? Look at how many times Bush, McCain and Palin use the phrase "We're in crisis mode." Then think of FDR, with nothing to fear but fear itself.
The only way to stop the Rove-Cheney cabal from moving ahead with this coup without the headlines will be a principled and patriotic Republican revolution against this plan. That is why resistance from Republicans to the Paulson "rescue" was so very heartening.
It will take Republicans to understand that criminals have seized control of the White House -- and I don't use that term rhetorically: There are distinct crimes this regime has already committed, and deploying our military to police us is yet one more.
It will take Republicans across America to consider the lessons of history: In a police state, your politics do not protect you.
How will commerce proceed in such an America? How will capital flow? How will elections unfold? How will liberty be anything more than an echo of a fair and valiant recent past? This is not a liberal nightmare. This is the nightmare of any true conservative patriot.
Please speak to one another about this crisis. Please see it for what it is. And please join our transpartisan rebellion against the paper coup which is all too soon to materialize as boots hit the ground in the United States for the first time in a century. Please stand up for true conservatism, and stand up for a free America.

Naomi Wolf is the author of Give Me Liberty (Simon and Schuster, 2008), the sequel to the New York Times best-seller The End of America: A Letter of Warning to a Young Patriot (Chelsea Green, 2007

Pizza God

Oct 28 2008, 03:04 PM

Funny you would post that.

this weekend, I was trying to listen to this speech by Niomi Wolfe.

I don't agree with some of her political believes, but she is pretty much dead on here.

<object width="425" height="349"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/RjALf12PAWc&hl=en&fs=1&color1=0x006699&color2=0x54abd6&border=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/RjALf12PAWc&hl=en&fs=1&color1=0x006699&color2=0x54abd6&border=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="349"></embed></object>

bravo

Oct 28 2008, 03:09 PM

this is definately the commercial for profit american democracy.

this is not the america created by free men for free men.
those folks worked hard and educated their families to bad the education has wained over generations and the end result is a people who has lazily accepted the bull"""" thats been handed to them as benifits while asking for more bull"""

james_mccaine

Oct 28 2008, 03:17 PM

My issue is not necessarily with the people he hangs out with, it is his denying being involved with them, though from some of their history I can see why he would.

"Denying being involved." Just what does this mean? Seriously.

My problem is the double standard and superficiality of your stated position. Like I have asked earlier: Are you concerned with McCain's associations throughout the years? If not, why?

Secondly, just what are these associations supposed to mean: Obama is a domestic terrorist? Obama is an international terrorist? He doesn't actually do thse things, but secretly cheers them on? Just what am I supposed to conclude about him based on these associations? I really don't know, what am I supposed to conclude?

Like I said earlier, would you appreciate me drawing conclusions about you in this manner?

kkrasinski

Oct 28 2008, 03:42 PM

I still believe you guys do not understand what I am saying.

I do understand what you are saying.

Even though Obama HAS publically condemned Ayers actions in the '60s, and even though Obama HAS referenced working with Ayers on the school reform committee you will not feel he has come clean unless he says something along the lines of: "I have know Bill Ayers for over 10 years and have closely worked with him on numerous occaisions. He and I share many radical views and he has played an important role in the development of my political philosophy."

The problem is, however, that you base your opinion not on what the principals have actually said, but on what have heard others say about them. When I questioned your source earlier, I wasn't attacking Diamond, he is what he is. I was attacking YOU for referencing such a clearly biased account.

Take what you said of Ayers:

However, I did not even say Ayers was bad, though I disagree with what he did years ago and what he has said when he said he should have bombed more.

Where did you get the idea Ayers said he should have bombed more? From the media? Did you ever think to check what Ayers himself had to say about that infamous interview published in 2001? I thought not. Well here's your chance: Clarifying the Facts -- a letter to the New York Times, 9-15-2001 (http://billayers.wordpress.com/2008/04/21/clarifying-the-facts-a-letter-to-the-new-york-times-9-15-2001/) by Bill Ayers.

Alacrity

Oct 28 2008, 04:52 PM

I guess you are right in saying that it came from the media, much the same way you have formulated you opinions, however quoting from above

MR. STEPHANOPOULOS: Senator, if you get the nomination, you'll have to -- (applause) -- (inaudible).

I want to give Senator Clinton a chance to respond, but first a follow-up on this issue, the general theme of patriotism in your relationships. A gentleman named William Ayers, he was part of the Weather Underground in the 1970s. They bombed the Pentagon, the Capitol and other buildings. He's never apologized for that. And in fact, on 9/11 he was quoted in The New York Times saying, "I don't regret setting bombs; I feel we didn't do enough."

The statements Ayers is reported to have made, and were referenced above were reported by the New Your Times http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.ht...;pagewanted=all (http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F02E1DE1438F932A2575AC0A9679C8B 63&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all)

he subsequently said he was misquoted in the reference you gave above. Even former members of the Weathermen disagree with his book where he vindicated himself. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Ayers

Regardless of that, you want to overlook the things he has done and say they are not real. To me it is a matter of character. You say that I will not believe any of it until Obama admits to wrong doing and that was not my intent. As I started this discourse I stated that I have corrected many of my co-workers on false statements being made about Obama, such as the fake comments made about what he was purported to say on Meet the Press about the American flag.

I will say this, it appears to me that the very same things you claim I am doing, by following the media, is exactly what you seem to be doing.

James, I am done with the discussion here, maybe we can share a cup of coffee and I can answer your questions elsewhere. I am willing to listen, however I may not agree.

james_mccaine

Oct 28 2008, 05:11 PM

James, I am done with the discussion here, maybe we can share a cup of coffee and I can answer your questions elsewhere. I am willing to listen, however I may not agree.

Sounds good. I hope to see you in Tyler.

Pizza God

Oct 28 2008, 05:36 PM

I want in on that conversation, but I don't drink coffee :o

kkrasinski

Oct 28 2008, 08:53 PM

Next consider Rashid Khalidi. In Obama's words:
"You mentioned Rashid Khalidi, who is a professor at Columbia. I do know him because he talked at the University of Chicago and he is Palestinian, and I do know him and I have had conversations." 

Complete Obama Statement: "You mentioned Rashid Khalidi, who's a professor at Columbia...I do know him because I taught at the University of Chicago. And he is Palestinian. And I do know him and I have had conversations. He is not one of my advisors; he's not one of my foreign policy people. His kids went to the Lab school where my kids go as well. He is a respected scholar, although he vehemently disagrees with a lot of Israel's policy...To pluck out one person who I know and who I've had a conversation with who has very different views than 900 of my friends and then to suggest that somehow that shows that maybe I'm not sufficiently pro-Israel, I think, is a very problematic stand to take...So we gotta be careful about guilt by association."

The LA Times reported that the Obama-Khalidi friendship was much more than just casual. Once again virtually in Obama's words:

 Speaking to the crowd, Obama reminisced about meals prepared by Khalidi's wife, Mona, and conversations that had challenged his thinking.

His many talks with the Khalidis, Obama said, had been "consistent reminders to me of my own blind spots and my own biases. . . . It's for that reason that I'm hoping that, for many years to come, we continue that conversation -- a conversation that is necessary not just around Mona and Rashid's dinner table," but around "this entire world." 

Horrors, he has friends that challenge his thinking.

Obama was involved in raising money for and received money from Rashid as well.

Funding for Khalidi is indeed problematic. I notice McCain is not forthcoming about the nearly $500,000 grant paid under his leadership as chairman of the International Republican Institute to Khalidi's Center for Palestine Research and Studies (page 14, grant 5180) (http://big.assets.huffingtonpost.com/IRIForm9901998.pdf). Is McCain "distancing" himself from Khalidi?

qdbailey2

Oct 28 2008, 11:18 PM

Quote:
The day liberals try to repeal the 2nd amendment is the day after conservatives get Roe v Wade overturned...and neither will ever happen.

At least the Supreme court recent overturned the Washington DC law on handguns.

Next step, admit that Roe vs Wade was legislation from the bench and should be over turned and the mater would be back in the hands of the states where it should be.

--------------------

Yeah but the DC leaders just replaced it with the same thing. They want to delay until friendlier circumstances arise. The threat to our right to bear arms is real. Already ATF is attacking gun dealers & if you can't buy a gun, it becomes real hard to bear arms. And with proposed taxes on ammo as well as weapons, you won't be able to afford to load that weapon. I guess you could still use it as a club.

tbender

Oct 29 2008, 09:53 AM

Yeah but the DC leaders just replaced it with the same thing. They want to delay until friendlier circumstances arise. The threat to our right to bear arms is real. Already ATF is attacking gun dealers & if you can't buy a gun, it becomes real hard to bear arms. And with proposed taxes on ammo as well as weapons, you won't be able to afford to load that weapon. I guess you could still use it as a club.

Wow. You hit all the talking points. Well done.

qdbailey2

Oct 29 2008, 10:47 PM

Quote:
Next consider Rashid Khalidi. In Obama's words:
"You mentioned Rashid Khalidi, who is a professor at Columbia. I do know him because he talked at the University of Chicago and he is Palestinian, and I do know him and I have had conversations."

Complete Obama Statement: "You mentioned Rashid Khalidi, who's a professor at Columbia...I do know him because I taught at the University of Chicago. And he is Palestinian. And I do know him and I have had conversations. He is not one of my advisors; he's not one of my foreign policy people. His kids went to the Lab school where my kids go as well. He is a respected scholar, although he vehemently disagrees with a lot of Israel's policy...To pluck out one person who I know and who I've had a conversation with who has very different views than 900 of my friends and then to suggest that somehow that shows that maybe I'm not sufficiently pro-Israel, I think, is a very problematic stand to take...So we gotta be careful about guilt by association."

That wasn't all that Obama said at that function. That is why the LA Times is sitting on the tape they have. He also called Israel "terrorists who had no right to live in Palestine. " There were a couple more lines equally as bad. Seems there is more than what was in statement.

Quote:
The LA Times reported that the Obama-Khalidi friendship was much more than just casual. Once again virtually in Obama's words:

Speaking to the crowd, Obama reminisced about meals prepared by Khalidi's wife, Mona, and conversations that had challenged his thinking.

His many talks with the Khalidis, Obama said, had been "consistent reminders to me of my own blind spots and my own biases. . . . It's for that reason that I'm hoping that, for many years to come, we continue that conversation -- a conversation that is necessary not just around Mona and Rashid's dinner table," but around "this entire world."
Horrors, he has friends that challenge his thinking.

Quote:
Obama was involved in raising money for and received money from Rashid as well.
Funding for Khalidi is indeed problematic. I notice McCain is not forthcoming about the nearly $500,000 grant paid under his leadership as chairman of the International Republican Institute to Khalidi's Center for Palestine Research and Studies (page 14, grant 5180). Is McCain "distancing" himself from Khalidi?

Check your facts. These are 2 different groups. The one McCain is associated with ( Khalidi was marginally involved) was blasted as being pro Israel by the Arab states as well as PLA.

qdbailey2

Oct 29 2008, 10:48 PM

Like Joe Friday said " Just the facts".

kkrasinski

Oct 30 2008, 08:42 AM

Hey, Darrell the Mailman, did it occur to you that nobody really cares if an organization McCain was involved with granted funding to an organization Khalili was a founder and trustee of? That the only reason the funding was pointed out is to illustrate the absurdity of the guilt by association tactic the McCain crew and right wing pundits are using in desperate attempt to wrest the election away from their opponent? That my "funding is a problem" remark might be just tiniest bit sarcastic? Apparently this not-so-subtle point is lost on you. So sorry ...

sschumacher

Oct 30 2008, 10:20 AM

The threat to our right to bear arms is real. Already ATF is attacking gun dealers & if you can't buy a gun, it becomes real hard to bear arms.

Wow!!!!.....The last thing we want to do as Americans is keep those postal workers from getting their hands on a bunch of guns. :o:D

The right to go "postal" is as American as apple pie!!!! ;)

qdbailey2

Oct 30 2008, 09:30 PM

Don't worry. Us "postal workers" already have our guns. WHOOHAAHAAHAA!!!

qdbailey2

Oct 30 2008, 09:39 PM

"Hey, Darrell the Mailman, did it occur to you that nobody really cares if an organization McCain was involved with granted funding to an organization Khalili was a founder and trustee of? That the only reason the funding was pointed out is to illustrate the absurdity of the guilt by association tactic the McCain crew and right wing pundits are using in desperate attempt to wrest the election away from their opponent? That my "funding is a problem" remark might be just tiniest bit sarcastic? Apparently this not-so-subtle point is lost on you. So sorry ... "

No it didn't occur to me that anyone wouldn't want to make an informed decision when they vote. Then why waste your time voting at all. As for subtlety; sorry I am just same 'ol dumb, racist hick who took you at your word.

qdbailey2

Oct 30 2008, 10:02 PM

I'm so ashamed. People are hurting & we must elect Obama to save them & ourselves. Here's what I mean:

Erica Jong Tells Italians Obama Loss 'Will Spark the Second American Civil War. Blood Will Run in the Streets'
.

"It seems that the final days of the presidential campaign have made Erica Jong and her friends more than a little anxious.

A few days ago, Jong, the author and self-described feminist, gave an interview to the Italian daily Corriere della Sera, Basically, Jong says her fear that Obama might lose the election has developed into an "obsession. A paralyzing terror. An anxious fever that keeps you awake at night." She also says that her friends Jane Fonda and Naomi Wolf are extremely worried that Obama will be sabotaged by Republican dirty tricks, and that if an Obama loss indeed comes to pass, the result will be a second American Civil War.

Here's a translation of Jong's more spirited quotes to the Milan-based Corriere:

"The record shows that voting machines in America are rigged."
"My friends Ken Follett and Susan Cheever are extremely worried. Naomi Wolf calls me every day. Yesterday, Jane Fonda sent me an email to tell me that she cried all night and can't cure her ailing back for all the stress that has reduces her to a bundle of nerves."

"My back is also suffering from spasms, so much so that I had to see an acupuncturist and get prescriptions for Valium."

"If Obama loses it will spark the second American Civil War. Blood will run in the streets, believe me. And it's not a coincidence that President Bush recalled soldiers from Iraq for Dick Cheney to lead against American citizens in the streets."

"Bush has transformed America into a police state, from torture to the imprisonment of reporters, to the Patriot Act."

THE HORROR

Pizza God

Oct 30 2008, 11:02 PM

"Bush has transformed America into a police state, from torture to the imprisonment of reporters, to the Patriot Act."

And the Democrats have done nothing to stop it. :mad:

sschumacher

Oct 31 2008, 09:54 AM

mikeP

Oct 31 2008, 10:14 AM

zzgolfer

Oct 31 2008, 06:29 PM

http://www.photobasement.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/fascism.jpg (http://www.photobasement.com/when-fascism-comes-to-america/)

qdbailey2

Nov 01 2008, 09:13 PM

Don't worry. Us "postal workers" already have our guns. WHOOHAAHAAHAA!!!

Well, don't shoot your eye out.

When are you guys going to do something about all those illegals coming in. I've heard they are just sitting in boats in the Gulf of Mexico waiting for the next hurricane to blow them inland. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Between the tornado's on your northern border and the hurricanes on your southern line, it looks like Texas is starting to suck on both ends. ;)

Problem w/ the illegals, most coming into Texas are coming from within the US; wherever local or state govts. are actually trying to do something about the problem. Texas & Mexico have always just kinda of run together at the border. W/O the Rio Grande, you couldn't tell the difference in some places. Beside who wouldn't want to live here. Like Tanya Tucker said: "When I die, I may not go to Heaven. 'Cause I don't know if they let cowboys in. If they don't; then let me go to Texas. 'Cause Texas is as close as I've been." YEEHAA

OOWWW MY EYE :D

qdbailey2

Nov 01 2008, 09:23 PM

On the Today show this morning they said that because of few regulations in Texas regarding the ownership of exotic animals, that there are actually more tigers in Texas than in India. Tornadoes, Tigers, and Hurricanes, OH MY!

We're like the Garden of Eden. I have a friend that lives in the middle of a game preserve & in the evening; you can sit on his front porch & watch giraffe, zebras & all kinds of deer & such. It's like being in Africa. It's beautiful out there. If its of this world, you can see it somewhere in Texas. Heck we even have things not of this world flying around down here.

Pizza God

Nov 07 2008, 01:04 AM

Adam is a Patriot and one of my current Hero's

He is an Iraq War vet who saw what was going on in Iraq and is now fighting the wrongs.

<object width="425" height="349"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/_udXNiZcs38&hl=en&fs=1&rel=0&color1=0xe1600f&color2=0xfebd01&border=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/_udXNiZcs38&hl=en&fs=1&rel=0&color1=0xe1600f&color2=0xfebd01&border=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="349"></embed></object>

zzgolfer

Nov 07 2008, 04:44 PM

ACLU wants probe into police-staged DNC protest
By Felisa Cardona
The Denver Post
Article Last Updated: 11/07/2008 10:25:14 AM MST

DNC PROTEST
Read the ACLU's letter to the Office of the Independant Monitor (PDF) .
Watch video from the August, 2008 standoff between DNC protesters and police at 15th & Court in Downtown Denver.
Watch video of protesters getting sprayed with pepper spray, from the August, 2008 standoff .
When a Jefferson County deputy unleashed pepper spray at unruly protesters on the first night of the Democratic National Convention, he did not know that his targets were undercover Denver police officers.

Now the American Civil Liberties Union of Colorado is questioning whether that staged confrontation by police pretending to be violent inflamed other protesters or officers during the most intense night of the four-day event.

The protest occurred Aug. 25 at 15th Street and Court Place near Civic Center. Police ultimately arrested 106 people, the highest number of arrests in a single day during the convention.

According to a use-of-force police report obtained by the ACLU, undercover Denver detectives staged a struggle with a police commander to get pulled out of the crowd without blowing their cover. The commander knew they were working undercover, and the plan was to pull them out of the crowd and pretend they were under arrest so protesters would be none the wiser.

A Jefferson County deputy, unaware of the presence of undercover police, thought that the commander was being attacked and used pepper spray on the undercover officers.

The report says that the commander and an undercover detective were sprayed, but it does not indicate how many others were affected. The report also doesn't say whether the pepper spray used on the undercover police was the first deployment of chemicals that night or whether the riot was already underway.

Denver police have said they were trying to control the crowd moving from Civic Center. The officers testified in court that they had intelligence that anarchists planned to gather in the park, then move toward the 16th Street Mall to wreak havoc at delegate hotels and other businesses. The activists had posted that plan on a publicly available website.

Probe requested

On Thursday, the ACLU of Colorado sent a letter to Denver's Independent Monitor, Richard Rosenthal, asking for the Internal Affairs Bureau to conduct an investigation of the pepper-spraying incident.

"The actions of the undercover detectives on August 25, 2008, may have had the effect of exacerbating an already 'tense situation,' as their feigned struggle led nearby officers and the public to believe that a commanding officer was being attacked by protestors and that the situation necessitated the use of chemical agents," says the letter, written by ACLU staff attorney Taylor Pendergrass.

"Such actions may have escalated the overall situation by causing officers on the scene to fear that the protestors threatened their safety, when in fact the struggle was only between uniformed officers and undercover officers," he wrote.

Denver Police Chief Gerald Whitman did not return a call seeking comment about the pepper-spray incident and whether the officers followed protocol by staging a disturbance with the commander.

Rosenthal said he had received the ACLU's letter about the pepper-spray incident.

He also received a letter from the ACLU last week requesting a probe into possible conflicting or false statements by police about the riot and whether the department withheld evidence in some of the protesters' criminal trials.

The ACLU contends videos show that protesters, as well as otherwise uninvolved onlookers, were never ordered or given a chance to disperse before they were surrounded and detained by police.

"The letters have been received, and I am in the process of reviewing and evaluating them," Rosenthal said Thursday.

As many as 60 protest suspects declined to accept plea deals after their arrests. Some cases have been dismissed and some suspects acquitted after a judge cited a lack of evidence.

Felisa Cardona: 303-954-1219 or [email protected]

Pizza God

Nov 07 2008, 05:35 PM

Wow, I had known that Protesters were claiming instigators were starting riots, now there is flat out proof.

You would think the undercover guys would be there to keep the peace, not help start the problem. All they had to do was keep close to the people they were watching and arrest them if they caused any problem.

But alas no, they wound up making the situation worse.

qdbailey2

Nov 08 2008, 12:14 AM

I'm sorry. This guy is your hero? You don't have a right to be in close proximity taking pics when someone is getting busted.He ain't Dan Rather. And if a policeman tells you to stop; for whatever reason, you can't tell him to F off & walk away. And threatening to ID an undercover agent is just stupid.
I applaud his service, but I can't believe this guy actually made it through Iraq to become a vet. I guess God protects the clueless as well as the helpless.

Pizza God

Nov 08 2008, 01:35 AM

I don't think you watched the whole video.

He was on a public sidewalk taking pictures of an undercover officer yelling at a motorist. He has those pictures in the video, he was not up in the guys face, he was only recording what was going on.

This is such common practice in New Hampshire, the police are actually friendly with the video guys. (check out the Ridley Report (http://www.youtube.com/user/RidleyReport))

I also have a friend in Plano who does this too web page (http://www.youtube.com/user/obscuredtruth) He is in the process of moving to New Hampshire too as part of the Free State Project.

qdbailey2

Nov 10 2008, 01:10 AM

You don't have the right to be in close proximity. Thats what zoom & a parabolic mic is for . If the person being questioned had pulled a gun & started shooting he would have been begging that cop to save him. And when a cop says jump, you better jump. These guys have enough to worry about just dealing with criminals, w/o having to watch the guy will the shiny metal object standing behind him. Its fine to watch for police doing wrong, just stay the "F" out of the way & let them do their job. That's all I'm saying.

zzgolfer

Nov 12 2008, 08:17 PM

Forget Red vs. Blue -- It's the Educated vs. People Easily Fooled by Propaganda

By Chris Hedges, Truthdig. Posted November 12, 2008.

http://www.alternet.org/mediaculture/106..._by_propaganda/ (http://www.alternet.org/mediaculture/106551/forget_red_vs._blue_--_it%27s_the_educated_vs._people_easily_fooled_by_p ropaganda/)

Pizza God

Nov 13 2008, 06:45 PM

If you have never watched this, you should.

This IS America

<object width="425" height="349"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/jYyttEu_NLU&hl=en&fs=1&rel=0&color1=0xe1600f&color2=0xfebd01&border=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/jYyttEu_NLU&hl=en&fs=1&rel=0&color1=0xe1600f&color2=0xfebd01&border=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="349"></embed></object>

bravo

Nov 13 2008, 09:01 PM

how in the world did the entertainment indestry involve themselves with the truth?now how do we push asside this corrupt government and start over?

dryhistory

Nov 13 2008, 10:53 PM

Beware Sacred Cows Using Three-Card Monte

dryhistory

Nov 13 2008, 11:48 PM

man i can't believe i havent got around to seeing this thread till today, but thanks for posting all of this Bryan, i was at a protest against the free trade of americas in miami 5 years ago this month. i was shot with rubber bullets and snotted up more tear gas than i care to remember. we were all peacefuly protesting but the cops were in military mode. police state indeed. im glad for your posts

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/G63FEamhpA0&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/G63FEamhpA0&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

zzgolfer

Nov 14 2008, 01:54 PM

How I Spent Election Night in a Baltimore Jail
By Michael M. Hughes, Baltimore City Paper. Posted November 14, 2008.

On a night of historic celebration, Baltimore city police arrested revelers without cause or provocation.
It was sometime between 2 and 3 a.m., and I was handcuffed and sitting inside a Baltimore police paddy wagon.

"Officer," I yelled.

"What?" a cop brusquely answered from outside the van.

"Officer, I need to use the bathroom. I really have to go." It was the third time I'd asked since my arrest, over an hour earlier. It was no joke -- my bladder felt as if it was going to rupture.

"You'll have to wait 'til we get downtown," he answered.

I grimaced. Behind my back, my wrists chafed against sharp, plastic cuffs. I squeezed my legs together. "I think I'm going to [censored] myself," I said to my only companion, a skinny kid in khakis and a pink oxford with a popped collar. He shook his head but didn't answer. My entire body began shaking, and I doubled over, sliding to my knees on the floor in pain. I remembered reading about a study in which volunteers were paid good money to [censored] their pants, and none could do it -- such is the power of social conditioning.

"[censored]," I said, and felt warmth spreading between my legs.

It struck me, then -- the pathetic and surreal absurdity of my situation. Why was I, a 42-year-old husband and father of two young daughters, a senior employee of Johns Hopkins, a freelance journalist, and a law-abiding, civic-minded guy, sitting in my [censored]-soaked underwear in the back of a paddy wagon outside the Northern District police station?

The day had begun with such promise.

That day I served as a Baltimore City election judge. I didn't do it for the measly paycheck but considered it a chance to connect with my neighbors. A handful of people were lined up when I arrived at 5:45 a.m., and an hour later the line stretched around the inside of the school and out along the sidewalk. The mood was electric. I saw lots of familiar faces and many, many new ones.

Some I'll never forget. A bearded 75-year-old white man holding a Noam Chomsky book said to me, "I didn't think I'd be around for the last election. And I know I won't be around for the next one. But this one � " he smiled.

A visually impaired black woman asked me and another judge to read the ballot for her. We read it all (yes, every last word of the bond issues) and when we finished, she pressed the button and turned to us with tears in her eyes. "That's the first time I ever voted," she said, and hugged us. My eyes welled up, too.

A smiling blonde woman approached the polls and explained to us that she had flown home to vote, in person -- from Sudan.

As soon as the polls closed, I put on a bootleg Obama T-shirt I'd bought on Greenmount Avenue. It was over-the-top -- an enormous image of Barack's face covering most of the shirt.

Later that night, I watched on a friend's television as a wave of blue swept over America. Eight of my friends had gathered, and after Obama's acceptance speech in Chicago, we heard car horns, whooping, and cheers from 33rd Street.

"Let's go," my friend Dan said.

I haven't seen such spontaneous celebration in the streets since the Ravens won the Superbowl. All around us cars honked, while people cheered and chanted "Obama!" and "Yes, we can!" We noticed an enormous gathering in North Charles Village, and as we approached several of the people in the crowd saw my Obama shirt and started cheering.

"This is amazing!" Dan said.

And it was. The crowd was an amalgam of the forces that had swept Obama into power: multiracial, young, old, straight, [censored], with one commonality -- they were all smiling. Students were holding American flags aloft with pride. Students! Ecstatic! About a presidential race! Strangers hugged and danced and high-fived one another. Tears flowed.

I need to write about this, I thought. I need to remember all of it, and document it, because it will never happen again.

Even the police were swept up in the mood, smiling and posing for photos. An occasional handful of students would venture into the streets to high-five enthusiastic, honking motorists, only to be waved back by the police, but otherwise, it was as peaceful and well-behaved as a high school pep rally.

Then I looked up the street, to where the police had blocked off St. Paul Street with almost a dozen cruisers. A phalanx of about a dozen cops had lined up.

They began marching, and I saw one of the cops holding a pile of plastic flexicuffs. No one had a bullhorn or a PA. They just moved into the crowd and started yelling at people. There was no clear officer in charge, just a group of belligerent, angry police.

My brother came running up the sidewalk. "Some guy just got tasered!" he said. I saw some cops walking back toward us, so I crossed the street to stay out of their way. The first arrestees were being led to the paddy wagon. I pulled out my cell phone and started snapping pictures.

A beefy officer saw me taking photos and approached. I held my hands at my side and said, "I'm a journalist. I'm just taking pictures."

He slapped my cell phone out of my hand and grabbed my shirt. "Well, write a nice, long story about this," he said, spinning me around as another officer cuffed me. I was in the paddy wagon before I could even comprehend what was happening. After processing at Northern District I was thrown into a concrete cell, strip-searched, fingerprinted, and subject to the singular degradation of a long night spent in Central Booking.

To the Baltimore City Police: I have met plenty of decent, respectful cops in this city. I could single out those who arrested and cuffed me, but I won't. This isn't about individuals -- throughout the ordeal, I met many who were appalled at the behavior of their comrades. One complimented my Obama T-shirt and loosened my cuffs. Another strip-searched me while shaking his head in disgust. "Welcome to the Baltimore City Police," he said.

To Mayor Dixon: I hold you accountable for the appalling, irresponsible behavior of your police force. They turned a peaceful, orderly, euphoric celebration of democracy into a brutal, embarrassing fiasco. People spontaneously celebrated in cities across our country -- indeed, the world -- without major incidents. Baltimore failed. Shame on you if you don't address this and apologize. And oh, by the way, thanks for not returning any of my calls despite promising to do so.

Most importantly, to the voters of Precinct 12, Ward 8, and the students, professors, teachers, and other citizens who gathered in Charles Village to celebrate the end of eight years of divisiveness and toxic politics and to inaugurate the beginning of an era of new possibilities: thank you. Because of you, I know my country, and my city, is in good hands. You made me proud.

Finally, to the officer who dared me to write about my arrest: Here you go, sir -- as requested. I just hope you read it

Pizza God

Nov 19 2008, 07:01 PM

Start watching at 2:30 mark. Police arrest a man for what he is wearing. Anyone remember the 1st Amendment????

<object width="425" height="349"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/FRKgsdbNguc&hl=en&fs=1&rel=0&color1=0x5d1719&color2=0xcd311b&border=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/FRKgsdbNguc&hl=en&fs=1&rel=0&color1=0x5d1719&color2=0xcd311b&border=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="349"></embed></object>

Sure, he was putting his life in danger, but that is his personal responsibility.

Notice how the police do nothing when his toy is stolen right out of his shirt.

I could link directly to the time, I can't figure out how to get this video to start there.

dryhistory

Nov 19 2008, 07:18 PM

thats messed up, they should have let him go back and catch a beat down and then stood and watched as he pleaded for help :D

Pizza God

Nov 19 2008, 07:23 PM

I understand "why" the police asked him to leave, I am just pointing out the fact they arrested him for not leaving.

(Notice all the taunting going on while he is being arrested)

bravo

Nov 19 2008, 08:53 PM

THE GUY WAS KIND OF AN IDIOT WALKING INTO THAT CROWD THAT WAY. WAS HE ARRESTED OR JUST MOVED FROM THE CONSIDERABLE DANGEROUS CIRCUMSTANCES?
IT IS NOT LAWFUL TO PROTECT SOMEBODY FROM THEIR OWN IDIOCY HOWEVER IT MAY HAVE SAVED HIS STUPID SELF.

dryhistory

Nov 20 2008, 01:55 PM

I understand "why" the police asked him to leave, I am just pointing out the fact they arrested him for not leaving.

(Notice all the taunting going on while he is being arrested)

i know what you meant, and despite my pass posts, i wasnt being sarcastic at all, once he wouldnt leave, they should have let him catch a beating and then smiled at him when he pleaded for there help. they shouldnt have arrested him.

Pizza God

Nov 21 2008, 02:28 PM

One thing you will notice about Ron Paul supporters, we are huge on the "Rule of Law", it is something Ron Paul talks about.

Watch this video about what this Republican official did when the Ron Paul supporters actually showed up, followed their RULES and took over.

(side note: we had 30% support in Texas and a majority in my districts)

<object width="425" height="349"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/5rplrNr8I8s&hl=en&fs=1&rel=0&color1=0x5d1719&color2=0xcd311b&border=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/5rplrNr8I8s&hl=en&fs=1&rel=0&color1=0x5d1719&color2=0xcd311b&border=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="349"></embed></object>

Pizza God

Nov 21 2008, 02:38 PM

On a related note, Nevada was nearly not allowed to be seated at the Republican National Convention because they stopped there convention when Ron Paul Republicans were starting to win all the Delegate seats. The Nevada GOP tried to appoint delegates against it's own rules. On the 15th of August, the RNC denied all the delegates from Nevada, a compromise was done and on August 30th, 30 McCain and 4 Ron Paul Delegates were allowed to be seated.

Check this out in Arizona, this was posted 11/18/08

Apparently having learned nothing from Nevada, Arizona's 4th legislative district GOP meeting was abruptly halted Monday night when Chairman Bob Burges realized he didn't have the votes to elect his delegates to the county convention or re-elect his friends to leadership positions.

The reason? A large group of Constitutional Republican Reformers including many Ron Paul supporters showed up and established a clear majority. The flustered chair, upon realizing his predicament, gaveled the meeting to a close without electing delegates at all, ordered the sheriff's department to clear the hall, and had the lights shut off.

The reformers quickly gathered in the parking lot determined to finish the meeting. When Chairman Burges had the exterior lights cut as well, the group found a janitor and had them turned back on. They established a quorum, elected a slate of delegates, and new leadership.

I understand that Chairman Burges is a genuinely decent man, but these tactics reflect the deep dysfunction that now haunts the GOP at every level. For my part, I hope that former Chairman Burges and the old guard in LD-4, as well as around the country, come to realize that our ideas ARE Republican ideas and begin to smooth the way for a new generation of leaders rather than causing further erosion of the party by standing in the way.

Pizza God

Nov 24 2008, 08:06 PM

Pizza God

Nov 25 2008, 12:03 AM

dryhistory

Nov 25 2008, 11:11 PM

what would Jack Bower do? :D

qdbailey2

Nov 26 2008, 01:01 AM

Car Battery & jumper cables. Oh & don't forget metal washtub with 1" water in bottom. Man, Fun Times. :D

qdbailey2

Nov 26 2008, 01:13 AM

Sorry Pizza I haven't been able to check boards lately, so I don't know how many videos I missed. Don't have internet out in the sticks where I'm setting up my survival shelter. If this is about my comment about the guy getting arrested for videotaping an arrest; hey at least these were pros & up in a chopper out of the way. As for the idiot that got arrested, he should feel lucky to be alive. Did he think that he was gonna get away? Did he think at all. As for the cops punching; you don't see what the guy might have been doing. He could have been resisting. I do like the choke hold. Can be very effective. :)

playtowin

Nov 27 2008, 01:48 PM

Thanksgiving... (the purpose you won't be taught in most public schools)

"Whereas it is the duty of all Nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey his will, to be grateful for his benefits, and humbly to implore his protection and favor -- and whereas both Houses of Congress have by their joint Committee requested me "to recommend to the People of the United States a day of public thanksgiving and prayer to be observed by acknowledging with grateful hearts the many signal favors of Almighty God especially by affording them an opportunity peaceably to establish a form of government for their safety and happiness."

Now therefore I do recommend and assign Thursday the 26th day of November next to be devoted by the People of these States to the service of that great and glorious Being, who is the beneficent Author of all the good that was, that is, or that will be -- That we may then all unite in rendering unto him our sincere and humble thanks -- for his kind care and protection of the People of this Country previous to their becoming a Nation -- for the signal and manifold mercies, and the favorable interpositions of his Providence which we experienced in the tranquility [sic], union, and plenty, which we have since enjoyed -- for the peaceable and rational manner, in which we have been enabled to establish constitutions of government for our safety and happiness, and particularly the national One now lately instituted -- for the civil and religious liberty with which we are blessed; and the means we have of acquiring and diffusing useful knowledge; and in general for all the great and various favors which he hath been pleased to confer upon us.

And also that we may then unite in most humbly offering our prayers and supplications to the great Lord and Ruler of Nations and beseech him to pardon our national and other transgressions -- to enable us all, whether in public or private stations, to perform our several and relative duties properly and punctually -- to render our national government a blessing to all the people, by constantly being a Government of wise, just, and constitutional laws, discreetly and faithfully executed and obeyed -- to protect and guide all Sovereigns and Nations (especially such as have shewn [sic] kindness onto us) and to bless them with good government, peace, and concord -- To promote the knowledge and practice of true religion and virtue, and the encrease [sic] of science among them and us -- and generally to grant unto all Mankind such a degree of temporal prosperity as he alone knows to be best."

Given under my hand at the City of New York
the third day of October in the year of our Lord 1789.

George Washington

dryhistory

Nov 27 2008, 03:33 PM

just as life evolves, purposes evolve

AviarX

Nov 27 2008, 05:03 PM

Thanksgiving... (the purpose you won't be taught in most public schools)

"Whereas ... "

George Washington

actually while being thankful for our blessings is a common theme of all religions, ThanksGiving (or rather Giving Thanks) -- like most of this land -- was taken from Indigenous Americans.

Founding Fathers Religion Debate and Poll (http://www.sullivan-county.com/id3/debate.htm)

playtowin

Nov 28 2008, 02:10 AM

[/QUOTE]

actually while being thankful for our blessings is a common theme of all religions, ThanksGiving (or rather Giving Thanks) -- like most of this land -- was taken from Indigenous Americans.

[/QUOTE]

So the concept of "giving thanks" was "taken" from the Indians? European settlers had no idea what "giving thanks" was before Squanto? Are you serious?

playtowin

Nov 28 2008, 02:28 AM

just as life evolves, purposes evolve

Am I suppose to believe that it's intended purpose (thanking God) has "evolved" into something more meaningful? Even if I didn't believe in God, I'd find it very hard to top that stated purpose by the one who "assigned" it!

AviarX

Nov 28 2008, 07:28 PM

playtowin

Nov 29 2008, 03:44 AM

actually while being thankful for our blessings is a common theme of all religions, ThanksGiving (or rather Giving Thanks) -- like most of this land -- was taken from Indigenous Americans.

So the concept of "giving thanks" was "taken" from the Indians? European settlers had no idea what "giving thanks" was before Squanto? Are you serious?

[/QUOTE]

you're missing the point. did you read (and understand) the introductory phrase to the top sentence above?
:confused:

 All you said was that thankfulness is common among religions. But you follow that up by saying "like most of this land, ThanksGiving (or rather Giving Thanks) was taken from Indigenous Americans." I was suppose to decipher "most settlers had a sense of entitlement and some thought they were God's favorites" from that? Yes, I did "miss the point" that you never made until now.

I still don't see how the "favorites of God, most of which had a sense of entitlement," had "taken" the idea of giving thanks to God from the Indians?

Reguardless, what does any of that (your revisionist version or the first one), have to do with my posting of Washingtons words, where he clearly say's that the purpose of the holiday was to "thank God?"

Native Americans, tended to realize the resources which sustain us are something to be thankful for -- not something to be taken for granted. Most of the European "settlers" felt much more of a sense of entitlement... some even thought that they were God's favorites

[/QUOTE]

AviarX

Nov 30 2008, 03:06 AM

Reguardless, what does any of that (your revisionist version or the first one), have to do with my posting of Washingtons words, where he clearly say's that the purpose of the holiday was to "thank God?"

let those who have ears to hear: hear

playtowin

Dec 01 2008, 02:10 AM

"Non se�qui�tur"

Function: noun
Etymology: Latin, it does not follow

1: an inference that does not follow from the premises
2: a statement (as a response) that does not follow logically from or is not clearly related to anything previously said

I'd ask you a simple question but it would be naive to expect an answer. And getting one would just be "ironic" at this point! Thanks for clearing that all up cheif!

AviarX

Dec 01 2008, 11:14 AM

if your general tendency here were less contentious (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/contentious) i might have the patience to show you my 'math' -- but i don't have time to deal with the flurry of contention you'd likely put up at every turn ;)

Main Entry: con�ten�tious
Pronunciation: \k&#601;n-&#712;ten(t)-sh&#601;s\
Function: adjective
Date: 15th century
1 : likely to cause contention <a contentious argument>
2 : exhibiting an often perverse and wearisome tendency to quarrels and disputes <a man of a most contentious nature>
synonyms see belligerent
� con�ten�tious�ly adverb
� con�ten�tious�ness noun

Pizza God

Dec 01 2008, 05:02 PM

Pentagon to Detail Troops to Bolster Domestic Security (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/11/30/AR2008113002217_pf.html)

Ah, this is not allowed under our CURRENT laws.

Here is a quote from an article I read on this subject that explains it better than I can.

The open admission that U.S. troops will be involved in law enforcement operations as well as potentially using non-lethal weapons against American citizens is a complete violation of the Posse Comitatus Act and the Insurrection Act, which substantially limit the powers of the federal government to use the military for law enforcement unless under precise and extreme circumstances.

Section 1385 of the Posse Comitatus Act states, �Whoever, except in cases and under circumstances expressly authorized by the Constitution or Act of Congress, willfully uses any part of the Army or the Air Force as a posse comitatus or otherwise to execute the laws shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than two years, or both.�

Under the John Warner Defense Authorization Act, signed by President Bush on October 17, 2006, the law was changed to state, �The President may employ the armed forces to restore public order in any State of the United States the President determines hinders the execution of laws or deprives people of a right, privilege, immunity, or protection named in the Constitution and secured by law or opposes or obstructs the execution of the laws of the United States or impedes the course of justice under those laws.�

However, these changes were repealed in their entirety by HR 4986: National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2008, reverting back to the original state of the Insurrection Act of 1807. Despite this repeal, President Bush attached a signing statement saying that he did not feel bound by the repeal. It remains to be seen whether President elect Obama will reverse Bush�s signing statement.

The original text of the Insurrection Act severely limits the power of the President to deploy troops within the United States.

For troops to be deployed, a condition has to exist that, �(1) So hinders the execution of the laws of that State, and of the United States within the State, that any part or class of its people is deprived of a right, privilege, immunity, or protection named in the Constitution and secured by law, and the constituted authorities of that State are unable, fail, or refuse to protect that right, privilege, or immunity, or to give that protection; or (2) opposes or obstructs the execution of the laws of the United States or impedes the course of justice under those laws. In any situation covered by clause (1), the State shall be considered to have denied the equal protection of the laws secured by the Constitution.�

dryhistory

Dec 01 2008, 06:05 PM

Posse Comitatus has not been respected or understood by this government since WW1. this is america

tbender

Dec 01 2008, 06:58 PM

Nothing to add, but Posse Comitatus would be a great band name.

playtowin

Dec 01 2008, 07:44 PM

i might have the patience to show you my 'math'

Dang it! I knew I should have said "please" and "sir!" Now I'll never know how 1 +1 = 7!

Thank you for showing us all how to be agreeable, unprevokable, tolerant, and easy-going on a "discussion" board Rob! :D

zzgolfer

Dec 02 2008, 12:35 PM

Cops Get Their Kicks, Tasering
Posted by Digby, Hullabaloo at 10:28 AM on December 1, 2008.

The police have no right to shoot people with electricity for having a "bad attitude."

Torridjoe at Loaded Orygun is following the taser controversy and sees the same problem that I do with this weapon. He recounts this interesting story in the Portland Mercury about the city's use of tasers, which discusses at some length the data that shows the seemingly inevitable "mission creep" that overtakes police departments when they start using the weapon.
Torrid Joe writes:
Now, ordinarily I might not jump so quickly to allow Australia's empirical study to characterize the situation in Portland, especially without more precise data from our bureau on usage patterns. But the new head of the police union, Scott Westerman, does a bang-up job of reflecting exactly the kind of sentiment that would lead to a broader, more aggressive style of use:

"As more and more people mistakenly believe it's socially acceptable to publicly challenge the police, it creates an environment where people think that it is okay to ignore a uniformed police officer giving them commands," Westerman continues. "The environment in Portland allows this more frequently than in other cities."
I had to read that a couple of times to make sure he was saying what I thought he was saying, but he is: Westerman is telling us that Portland tases people because they're disrespectful punks who are insufficiently restrained by the city's social culture.

I frankly don't know what he's referring to when he talks about "social acceptability," other than the idea that Portland residents may actually better understand their legal rights to challenge police activity, and asserting that knowledge is more acceptable here than elsewhere. It is entirely legal to challenge police on their behavior regarding your rights, certainly until one is told they are under detention for some reason (not arrest, but detention--as in, when you ask "am I free to go," they say no.") Cops of course don't like to have their authority challenged, and Westerman is pretty clear that in his view, it's this permissiveness about boldly attempting to assert one's rights that's the problem--not, say, the fact that Portlanders tend to pose a more consistent threat to public safety, which would explain the tasings on a more rational-legal basis.
By giving this response to the question of changing usage patterns at PPB, Westerman not only implicitly admits that the focus has shifted from less-than-lethal to compliance circumstances--but pins that shift on cultural issues in the community, rather than those of the police bureau. In other words, if people would just shut up and do exactly as they're told without being rude or asking questions, they wouldn't be asking for the short sharp shock.

This is exactly right and that attitude is reflected by an awful lot of people, even those who appear in my comment section from time to time.
Yes, it's awful that Tasers can cause death and injury in some people. Clearly, they are much more dangerous than the manufacturers or the police will admit. But that isn't really the point. The fact is that Americans have a legal right not to comply with the police, and the police have no right to shoot them with electricity for having a "bad attitude."
A "little bit" of torture isn't any more legal than a whole lot of it. Pain that doesn't leave marks is still pain. And the police requiring the citizens of this country to comply or risk being tortured until they do is un-American.
It seems that juries (in Seattle) are starting to get the message:
Bonner, his wife, his daughter and 3-year-old granddaughter had been called to the department by Lievero, who was investigating allegations that Bonner's wife had physically abused the couple's grandchild. The allegations stemmed from a bitter custody battle involving Bonner's daughter and her former boyfriend. Bonner and his family came to the department to dispute the allegations, according to court documents.
Lievero took the family into an interview room, where things did not go well. Bonner said he was frustrated, at one point telling Lievero, "We know you are not an idiot, so why are you acting like one?" according to trial briefs.
The detective ended the interview and told Bonner to leave.
Bonner thought he might have better luck with Chief Rick Kieffer, whose office was just a few steps down the hallway from the interview room, but in the opposite direction from where he had come in, according to documents filed by Bonner's attorney, Jeffrey Needle.
Lievero told Bonner he couldn't leave that way. When Bonner said he wanted to talk to the chief, Lievero responded that he had to make an appointment with the receptionist and that he would be arrested if he didn't stop, the documents say.
"By the time Detective Lievero had finished making this statement, (Bonner) had arrived at Chief Rick Kieffer's door and had stopped walking," Needle wrote.
Kieffer was standing in the doorway, but before Bonner could speak, witnesses said Lievero grabbed Bonner's arm and forced it behind his back. Bonner complained to Kieffer that the detective was "out of control and shaking" as another officer joined Lievero, grabbed Bonner's other arm and began walking him back toward the reception area.
Bonner claims he did not resist, although the officers say otherwise. Lievero described Bonner as belligerent, and the city's attorneys said in court documents that he "stormed" the chief's office...
While Bonner was being escorted out of the station, Lievero delivered at least two jolts from his Taser, set on "touch-stun mode." Bonner said the first one knocked him to his knees. The second time, he was on his stomach while being handcuffed.
"Lievero testified that he Tased (Bonner) only after he observed (the other officer's) unsuccessful efforts to place plaintiff in a position to be handcuffed," according to Needle's trial brief.
The other officer, however, said in a deposition that Bonner "was under control."
[...]
The panel, after eight days of testimony, acquitted the detective of assault, but found that Lievero violated Bonner's civil rights by using excessive force during the arrest. It awarded him $35,000 in compensatory damages and, because the panel found Lievero's actions were "malicious ... oppressive, or in reckless disregard" of Bonner's rights, awarded him $25,000 more in punitive damages.
In defense of the police, it has to be said that they are told over and over again by the Taser manufacturers, the politicians and the public that it's no big deal if they inflict horrifying pain on the citizens of this country whenever they want to. We've turned "don't Tase me bro" into a national joke. They have no reason to think it's any worse than wrestling a suspect to the ground or screaming at them in an interrogation room.
But it is far worse. The intent, more often than not, is to incapacitate citizens by inflicting horrible pain and force their compliance with threats of more of that pain. Sometimes it's used as punishment for being disrespectful or uncooperative, as in the case above. Those are the methods of a police state, not a democracy.

james_mccaine

Dec 02 2008, 03:41 PM

Your post got me researching the "don't taze me bro" incident and I eventually came across the interesting terms of "drive stun" where the Taser is held against the target without firing the projectiles, and is intended to cause pain without incapacitating the target. Then I learned that drive stunning is classified as a "pain compliance" technique. :D

zzgolfer

Dec 03 2008, 11:50 AM

'Crash taxes' add hefty fees for aid
It's bad enough to be in a car accident, but getting billed for the police and/or fire department response can make matters worse. And your insurance may not cover that.
By Peter Lewis
Imagine you're cruising down the road when you hit a patch of black ice and slide into a guardrail. A passing motorist calls 911. Soon firetrucks and police arrive.
Weeks later, a $1,400 bill does, too -- for the cost of the police and firefighters who answered the call. What's worse, it's not covered by insurance, and it might scar your credit if you ignore it.
Sound implausible? It's happening in a number of towns, cities and counties in at least 24 states. And given today's cratering economy (and property-tax revenue), more strapped local governments may be tempted to authorize so-called accident response fees.
Private vendors that promote such programs show up at city council meetings and police and fire chief conventions with model ordinances and fee schedules in hand. The vendors typically take a 10% cut of what's recovered.
Though five states (Georgia, Indiana, Missouri, Pennsylvania and Tennessee) have banned "crash taxes" outright, insurers, lawmakers and vendors are squaring off elsewhere, even setting up warring Web sites such as Municipal Fee Facts and AccidentResponseFees.com. Who's caught in the middle? Drivers like you.

Pizza God

Dec 03 2008, 12:21 PM

dryhistory

Dec 03 2008, 07:10 PM

I believe I posted something about this at least a year ago about the Real ID act.

New ID Scanners at Borders Raise Privacy Alarm (http://www.newsmax.com/insidecover/privacy_security_terror/2008/12/01/156958.html?s=al&promo_code=725A-1)

I for one, will be working to keep the RFID chips out of our DL# and will not use a credit card with a RFID chip.

yeah this technology is scary, but i think it is going to be omnipresent without our consent or even knowledge half the time. do you have a toll tag?

but i did have a great idea when i first started in discgolf, what if they put an RFID chip in the plastic of all discs and we could buy a little remote looking thing that would fit on our keychain and would help us find our disc when they are lost.

Pizza God

Dec 03 2008, 11:09 PM

There are those that will not get a toll tag or even go though a toll booth because of the pictures. (those people will not go though red light cameras either)

It is all done to track us when they need to.

AviarX

Dec 04 2008, 10:20 PM

Thank you for showing us all how to be agreeable, unprevokable, tolerant, and easy-going on a "discussion" board Rob! :D

if you're not being disingenuous, thanks for respecting my right not to comply with your preconceptions, ;)

playtowin

Dec 05 2008, 02:28 AM

Now quoting you and asking what the heck you meant is considered a "preconception?" Whatever! Wink all ya want Rob, I simply asked why you'd say American settlers "took" the idea of thanking God from the Indians and all I get is blah blah blah and excuses. You don't wanna answer, I get that now, oh well. I thought it was a pretty valid question.

playtowin

Dec 05 2008, 02:37 AM

"The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not."

Thomas Jefferson

Awesome quote Pizza, the Hilter one was a bit of a "yeah but" kind of a quote! :D

dryhistory

Dec 05 2008, 01:14 PM

"The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not."

Thomas Jefferson

does anyone know where he said this? i cant find that info. i'm just wondering about the context. my guess would be he was talking about taking away from the laborers for the princes and kings who do no work.

dryhistory

Dec 05 2008, 01:37 PM

i found this at the jefferson cyclopedia

From Thomas Jefferson Encyclopedia
The following quotation is often attributed to Thomas Jefferson:

"The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not."

No evidence has been found that Jefferson ever wrote this. The concept of taxing income was not unknown to Jefferson, but his writings on the topic of taxation indicate that he viewed taxation generally as a source of revenue for the government.

Pizza God

Dec 05 2008, 02:13 PM

i found this at the Jefferson cyclopedia

From Thomas Jefferson Encyclopedia
The following quotation is often attributed to Thomas Jefferson:

"The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not."

No evidence has been found that Jefferson ever wrote this. The concept of taxing income was not unknown to Jefferson, but his writings on the topic of taxation indicate that he viewed taxation generally as a source of revenue for the government.

Yea,I did not research that quote, it came from an email of a bunch of quotes, I collect quotes I like, but that computer died a few weeks ago and I was only recently able to open the file off the old hard drive.

There are a lot of quotes out there that are either misquotes or attributed to the wrong person. The statement is correct, but in this case it looks like the wrong person is quoted.

Besides, I think President Jefferson would have said "Republic" and not "Democracy"

the Hitler quote I had for the last month was researched. I was looking for some shocking quotes from some of his speeches, (ones that look like Obama might have said them) however most of Hitlers speeches dealt with bashing Jews and not promoting socialism.

Pizza God

Dec 05 2008, 02:24 PM

The text of the email I got

Thomas Jefferson: in some cases could be called a prophet.

When we get piled upon one another in large cities, as in Europe, we shall become as corrupt as Europe.
Thomas Jefferson

The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not.
Thomas Jefferson has been discredited 

It is incumbent on every generation to pay its own debts as it goes. A principle which if acted on would save one-half the wars of the world.
Thomas Jefferson

I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.
Thomas Jefferson

My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government.
Thomas Jefferson I think I have seen this one before 

No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms.
Thomas Jefferson

The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.
Thomas Jefferson I have seen this one a bunch 

The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.
Thomas Jefferson I have seen this in other forms several times 

To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.
Thomas Jefferson This one is right up there with the one that was disproven. It is saying the same thing, but in a different way. 

Very Interesting Quote In light of the present financial crisis.

It's interesting to read what Thomas Jefferson said in 1802:

"I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around the banks will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered."
 I know for a fact this one is correct, I have researched it before. I would have posted that as my quote, but it is too long.

dryhistory

Dec 05 2008, 02:27 PM

Pizza God

Dec 05 2008, 02:46 PM

why would he have said 'republic' instead of 'democracy', is that one of those libertarian things where they dont realize a republic is a form of representative democracy. i agree the founders feared the rule of the majority but a republic is still a democracy, no?

Please watch part two at the minimum

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MW6AKVyi6As&feature=PlayList&p=6B7A9446744 911F2&index=1

Pizza God

Dec 05 2008, 03:02 PM

These are quotes by Hitler I have collected. As far as I know, these are all valid.

Terrorism is the best political weapon for nothing drives people harder than a fear of sudden death.

What luck for the rulers that men do not think.

All propaganda must be so popular and on such an intellectual level, that even the most stupid of those toward whom it is directed will understand it... Through clever and constant application of propaganda, people can be made to see paradise as hell, and also the other way around, to consider the most wretched sort of life as paradise.

The efficiency of the truly national leader consists primarily in preventing the division of the attention of a people, and always in concentrating it on a single enemy.

Society's needs come before the individual's needs.

Gold is not neccesary. I have no interest in gold. We will build a solid state, without an ounce of gold behind it. Anyone who sells above the set prices, let him be marched off to a concentration camp. That's the bastion of money.

playtowin

Dec 05 2008, 10:50 PM

[/QUOTE]
the Hitler quote I had for the last month was researched. I was looking for some shocking quotes from some of his speeches, (ones that look like Obama might have said them)...

[/QUOTE]

giggle :D

Pizza God

Dec 06 2008, 11:43 PM

Don't Tase me bro

<object width="445" height="364"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/PkPg-b94Ckc&hl=en&fs=1&rel=0&color1=0x5d1719&color2=0xcd311b&border=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/PkPg-b94Ckc&hl=en&fs=1&rel=0&color1=0x5d1719&color2=0xcd311b&border=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="445" height="364"></embed></object>

Pizza God

Dec 08 2008, 12:55 AM

For some reason, I find this humorous

<object width="445" height="364"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/l1PfxQIRhO4&hl=en&fs=1&rel=0&color1=0x5d1719&color2=0xcd311b&border=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/l1PfxQIRhO4&hl=en&fs=1&rel=0&color1=0x5d1719&color2=0xcd311b&border=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="445" height="364"></embed></object>

zzgolfer

Dec 16 2008, 12:16 PM

Update: Marine �Military Presence� Confirmed in San Bernardino County
Kurt Nimmo
Infowars
December 15, 2008
As we reported yesterday, the Marine Corps Air and Ground Combat Center has dispatched uniformed and presumably armed (we have no confirmation of the latter) soldiers to assist the California Highway Patrol (CHP) in the operation of unconstitutional sobriety checkpoints in San Bernardino County, California, the largest county in California and the country (San Bernardino County is directly east of Los Angeles).
On the Alex Jones Show today, Gary Daigneault, News Director at KCDZ-FM based in Joshua Tree, California, said the California Highway Patrol was less than forthcoming with their plan to team up with the military police, a direct violation of the Posse Comitatus Act preventing the military from performing civilian law enforcement duties.
After running an editorial last week reminding the Marines stationed at the Marine Corps Air and Ground Combat Center of the illegality of such an operation, the California Highway Patrol sent the radio station a fax indicating that the action would not include military police
As a KCDZ-FM news report broadcast today points out, by law � to avoid entrapment � the California Highway Patrol is required to provide the location of its checkpoints to the media at least two hours prior. Although the CHP did provide the radio station with a telephone number to get this information, when the number was called there was no answer.
Moreover, �to add insult to injury,� Marine Corps military police, in uniform and in marked military police cars, were indeed teamed up with CHP outside of a Home Depot in the town of Yucca Valley.
After examining the documents faxed to KCDZ-FM, it becomes obvious that the CHP in Joshua Tree deliberately released disinformation to the media designed to cover its participation with the Marines, as noted a direct violation of Posse Comitatus.
�
The first CHP News release dated December 10 indicated the police planned to work with the Marines, while a second press release dated December 12, after KCDZ-FM aired a critical news editorial, had this reference removed. Both documents include a note indicating the media would be able to contact the Barstow Dispatch Center on December 12 to receive location information required by law. As noted above, calls to the number provided went unanswered.
As Alex mentioned on his show today, the Marines are well aware of Infowars coverage of the story and made reference not only Alex by name but Infowars staff members Aaron Dykes and Kurt Nimmo as well.
It should be obvious the Marines and the California Highway Patrol are engaged in a disinformation campaign against the media in order to cover up their illegal and unconstitutional behavior. Not only do they want to entrap the residents of San Bernardino County in their �sobriety/driver license checkpoint� in violation of the Fourth Amendment protecting the people against unreasonable searches and seizures, they also want to send a message that the military will henceforth be involved in domestic law enforcement in direct violation of Posse Comitatus.

Pizza God

Dec 18 2008, 03:48 PM

While I do not agree with everything this kid says, it is interesting to see what he does say.

notice he has a copy of the 9/11 commission report sitting in the background of one of the pic's of his school's history book. How many teenagers do you know would even look at that book.

<object width="445" height="364"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/DrhQv1tpuX4&hl=en&fs=1&rel=0&color1=0x5d1719&color2=0xcd311b&border=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/DrhQv1tpuX4&hl=en&fs=1&rel=0&color1=0x5d1719&color2=0xcd311b&border=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="445" height="364"></embed></object>

zzgolfer

Dec 19 2008, 04:53 PM

AlterNet
Appalling: The Untold Story of Hurricane Katrina's Violent Race War
By Jill Tubman, Jack & Jill Politics
Posted on December 19, 2008, Printed on December 19, 2008
http://www.alternet.org/bloggers/http://www.jackandjillpolitics.com//114244/

Appalling. The Nation has a video above that describes Katrina's hidden race war with armed whites targeting innocent black victims fleeing from the storm's aftermath. I'm grateful to Color of Change and the Nation for bringing us this important story. I feel we've only scratched the tragic surface of what happened during America's worst humanitarian disaster to date. I smell one of the biggest coverups ever. Here's the action alert below from CoC:

A new report in The Nation documents what many have claimed for years -- for some Black New Orleanians the threat of being killed by White vigilantes in Katrina's aftermath became a bigger threat than the storm itself.

After the storm, White vigilantes roamed Algiers Point shooting and, according to their own accounts, killing Black men at will- with no threat of a police response. For the last three years, the shootings and the police force's role in them have been an open secret to many New Orleanians. To date, no one has been charged with a crime and law enforcement officials have refused to investigate.

The facts are finally seeing the light of day. Now we must demand action. Given Louisiana's horrible record when it comes to criminal justice and Black folks, it's the only path to justice.

You can help. Join us in calling on Louisiana Governor Bobby Jindal, Louisiana's Attorney General Buddy Caldwell, and the U.S. Department of Justice to conduct a full investigation of these crimes and any police cover-up. It takes only a moment to add your voice and to invite your friends and family to do the same:

http://www.colorofchange.org/nation/?id=1496-664550

In the two weeks after Hurricane Katrina made landfall, the media created a climate of fear with trumped-up stories of Black lawlessness. Meanwhile, an armed group of White vigilantes took over the Algiers Point neighborhood in New Orleans and mercilessly hunted down Black people. "It was great!" said one vigilante. "It was like pheasant season in South Dakota. If it moved, you shot it."

The Nation's article tells the story of Donnell Herrington, Marcel Alexander, and Chris Collins -- a group of friends who were attacked by shotgun-wielding White men as they entered Algiers Point on September 1, 2005. As they tried to escape, Herrington recalls, their attackers shouted, "Get him! Get that [censored]!" He managed to get away. Alexander and Collins were told that they would be allowed to live on the condition that they told other Black folks not to come to Algiers Point. Herrington, shot in the neck, barely survived.

And there's the story of Henry Glover, who didn't survive after being shot by an unknown assailant. 2 Glover's brother flagged down a stranger for help, and the two men brought Glover to a police station. But instead of receiving aid, they were beaten by officers while Henry Glover bled to death in the back seat of the stranger's car. A police officer drove off in the car soon afterward. Both Glover's body and the car were found burnt to cinders a week later. It took DNA analysis to identify the body.

Then there's the story of White militiamen who tried to drive their Black neighbors from their homes. Reggie Bell, who lived just two blocks down the street from the vigilantes' ringleader, was told at gunpoint, "We don't want you around here. You loot, we shoot." Later, another group of armed White men confronted him at his home, asking, "Whatcha still doing around here? We don't want you around here. You gotta go."

These are only a few of the stories of Black folks who were accosted in Algiers Point, and you can read more in The Nation. But unless you speak out, we may never learn the full extent of the violence. Journalists have encountered a wall of silence on the part of the authorities. The coroner had to be sued to turn over autopsy records. When he finally complied, the records were incomplete, with files on several suspicious deaths suddenly empty. The New Orleans police and the District Attorney repeatedly refused to talk to journalists about Algiers Point. And according to journalist A.C. Thompson, "the city has in nearly every case refused to investigate or prosecute people for assaults and murders committed in the wake of the storm."

The Nation's article is important, but it's just a start. For more than three years now, these racist criminals have by their own admission gotten away with murder, while officials in New Orleans have systematically evaded any kind of accountability. We have to demand it.

Please join us in calling on state and federal officials to investigate these brutal attacks and the conduct of Orleans Parish law enforcement agencies, and please ask your friends and family to do the same.

� 2008 Jack & Jill Politics All rights reserved.
View this story online at: http://www.alternet.org/bloggers/http://www.jackandjillpolitics.com//114244/

Pizza God

Dec 29 2008, 01:22 AM

This is a Documentary made back in 1999 about Waco

Waco: A New Revelation

I didn't know some of this stuff. I may have to look up and see what ever came of it.

pt 1
<embed id="VideoPlayback" src="http://video.google.com/googleplayer.swf?docid=5510108493532885562&hl=en&fs=true" style="width:400px;height:326px" allowFullScreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" type="application/x-shockwave-flash"> </embed>

pt 2
<embed id="VideoPlayback" src="http://video.google.com/googleplayer.swf?docid=2962656895645965329&hl=en&fs=true" style="width:400px;height:326px" allowFullScreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" type="application/x-shockwave-flash"> </embed>

Pizza God

Feb 06 2009, 03:08 PM

My line was pass 2 years ago, that is why I am so active now

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/TbNIU2KEz4g&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/TbNIU2KEz4g&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

Pizza God

Feb 06 2009, 03:19 PM

The Whole World Is Rioting as the Economic Crisis Worsens -- Why Aren't We? (http://www.alternet.org/workplace/124836?page=entire)

Lyle O Ross

Feb 06 2009, 07:24 PM

Za, that article is a ration of crock. The reason there aren't mass protests in this country is that because, unlike Europe, we think there is a stark difference between our political parties. People think they've solved the problem by electing Obama, that he will right the wrongs and swing us back to a more neutral position. Sadly they are wrong. Give them time, they'll figure it out and then just like in the 60s, the 30s, and before, they'll grab their pitchforks and take the mickey out of our government.

One thing to realize, the protests are happening, they just aren't being covered by the mainstream media. Take a look at some of the war protests that occurred when we went into Iraq. Well over 100,000 protested, and there have been numerous others. None of it has gotten any coverage in the "liberal" media.

Again, right now it has ebbed because Obama is the man. Once we realize that while competent, and more honest, he's still on the side of the rich and powerful (at least in part because they control the information he gets) then you'll see some protesting.

Think about this. The Russians had 150,000 troops in Afghanistan, with an additional 250,000 trained Afghanistan troops and they got whooped on. Obama realizes that the problem is in Afghanistan and thinks he's going to solve the problem by bombing the tribal regions in Pakistan (something he's already done and that is already making them mad) and adding an additional 30,000 troops to the 30,000 we have in Afghanistan now. He's going to get a lesson on war in that country that's already been learned by the Brits and Russians. As you so often pointed out, only one candidate really realized what we needed to do over there, that would be Ron Paul...

rollinghedge

Feb 09 2009, 05:08 PM

http://www.postchronicle.com/news/original/article_212206682.shtml

Pizza God

Feb 09 2009, 05:23 PM

http://www.postchronicle.com/news/original/article_212206682.shtml

He is one of my Heroes. 12K in one year??? that seems a bit high. I bet the article meant 12K sense 1998.

gnduke

Feb 10 2009, 03:33 AM

Do foreign nationals illegally here have more civil rights than Americans?

Would you sue someone that caught you trespassing and detained you while they called the cops?

AviarX

Feb 10 2009, 10:57 AM

Do foreign nationals illegally here have more civil rights than Americans?

there is a precedent for that > European "Settlers" and the First Americans...

Pizza God

Mar 22 2009, 12:34 AM

I guess I am a terrorist:D

<object width="445" height="364"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/OkECBZmSnDM&hl=en&fs=1&rel=0&color1=0xe1600f&color2=0xfebd01&border=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/OkECBZmSnDM&hl=en&fs=1&rel=0&color1=0xe1600f&color2=0xfebd01&border=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="445" height="364"></embed></object>

Pizza God

Mar 31 2009, 12:40 PM

U.S. Ranked 36th Freest Press in the World (http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2009/03/28/U.S.-Ranked-FiftyThird-Freest-Press-in-the-World.aspx)

kkrasinski

Mar 31 2009, 04:34 PM

Up 12 spots from last year!

Pizza God

Mar 31 2009, 09:04 PM

Amazing isn't it.

In the US we are suppose to have Freedom of the press

kkrasinski

Apr 01 2009, 10:08 AM

In the US we are suppose to have Freedom of the press

And you contend we don't? Why? Because some group called Reporters without Borders sends out a questionaire?

Or because some overzealous cops arrest some journalists at the Democratic and Republican National Conventions?

Or because those journalists are released with all charges dropped? Videos of their arrests are spread all around the internet? They and others are free to voice their indignation in print? That they and others are free to call attention to the overzealous cops?

It seems to that in these cases, which in and of themselves were the basis for the Reporters Without Borders ranking, freedom of the press actually worked quite well to prevent any consequence to the reporters and to highlight the inappropriate police action.

It also seems to me that in your self-asserted "patriotism" you are very quick to glom on to every indignant email you receive that is critical of the U.S. without performing due diligence to validate the claim. There is usually more to the story than email blurbs and youtube videos.

Pizza God

Apr 01 2009, 03:22 PM

The fact is, the Press was targeted at the conventions. There was never any intention to "press charges" It is a tool that the police use all the time to assert there authority.

It's like when a policeman pulls you over, tells you how you were breaking the law, and then lets you go without a ticket. In a way, they were only making sure you know they are really in charge. (but I appreciate the fact they didn't give me a ticket when he could have :D)

Texas has gone 15 years without DWI checkpoints because they were ruled Unconstitutional. Well Texas is about to pass a bill (it still has to pass the house) that will allow for DWI checkpoints again. We are calling/emailing our representatives asking for them to kill this bill in the House. MADD is trying to push this though again. (they do it every year and it usually dies)

Trust me, I am already forming a group that will protest any checkpoints that may come up in the DFW area. (just laying the ground work now, in case the bill actually passes)

tbender

Apr 01 2009, 03:31 PM

Only in freaking Texas would people be opposed to fighting drunk drivers.

"DWI, it's our right, goldurnit!"

kkrasinski

Apr 01 2009, 06:19 PM

The fact is, the Press was targeted at the conventions.

The fact is, at the RNC the press was in and amongst groups of demonstrators that were arrested. The press was not singled out. Press credentials don't put journalists above the law. Amy Goodman was arrested when she confronted police, in riot gear, as they were trying to control demonstrators. And again, all this was videotaped and extensively reported with no attempt by any authority to prevent publication.

exczar

Apr 01 2009, 06:37 PM

james_mccaine

Apr 01 2009, 06:38 PM

Bryan, I am curious, how are you going to "protest" a checkpoint? Blow right through?
The liberal artsy route with chants and performance art? How?

Pizza God

Apr 02 2009, 12:16 AM

On the RNC Press arrests, I posted a video on this thread about a web based news group that was arrested where no protesters where anywhere around. The police mostly asked them question of who they were meeting and who the people were. The press crew was making a documentary of the subject. (At least from what I can remember) If you want me to go back into this thread and pull it out I can. Just not tonight.
_______________________________________________

Protesting a DWI checkpoint.

2 methods.

1st, set up down the street and picket, basically warning of the checkpoint. You can do it closer and make sure people stuck in the line know what is going on.

2nd, actually go though the checkpoint over and over. This does two things. Wastes the officers time or if detained a lawsuit would then be filed to put a stop to the checkpoints in Texas. (Not the route I am going, but I know people who are willing to do them)

The bill says that the law enforcement doing the checkpoint has to show that the area has a problem with DWI's. Then they have to advertise the checkpoint, the check point can't be in place for more than 4 hours and there has to be a set method for checking. (as in every 4th car) Also, they can't detain you more than 3 min, well unless they suspect you are drunk. They also can't ask for your ID or Liability Insurance.

Yes, the rules are pretty strict from what I have read. I hope if it passes, the rules are so strict that no police/sheriff department even tries them.

it does make Texas "Show me your paper please" Bill posted the reason they should no be allowed.

Remember, you are innocent until proven guilty, not the other way around. In this country, they need probable cause.

Pizza God

Apr 02 2009, 12:23 AM

interesting, every video I posted in the 1st two pages about the Media people being arrested has been removed by YouTube???

Conspiracy???? Who knows.

However, when I did a quick search on YouTube, there are still several video's posted. (I just don't have the time to look up the ones I am referring too)

tbender

Apr 02 2009, 10:51 AM

The talk here is Texas is not, we don't want to catch drunk drivers by any means necessary, it's more like, we don't think that the police should be able to stop us in our car without a reason (read: probable cause). We want the authorities to catch drunk drivers, of course, but not at the expense of losing some of our constitutional rights.

The fact that driving is a privilege and not a right does muddy the waters somewhat.

From what I've seen down here I will always have my doubts that this state is committed to stopping drunk driving. It's a too common occasion to stop at a gas station and see someone opening a beer while driving away.

The comedian George Wallace once recommended that the roads should be modified for drunk drivers. Give them all one lane walled off from the rest of the road...to be used for both directions.

Lyle O Ross

Apr 02 2009, 01:58 PM

Do foreign nationals illegally here have more civil rights than Americans?

Would you sue someone that caught you trespassing and detained you while they called the cops?

Yes they do, the American Indian, who one could say rightfully owns all the land, and all the resources that exist here, gets very little out of the deal enforced upon them by European foreign nationals.

BTW - them Mexicans, the ones that come here, their ancestors were here long before ours were... Darn natives!

Pizza God

Apr 04 2009, 01:35 AM

Now I got this from a LONG time Republican activist, I have also heard about it on Glenn Beck and knew about it though a few emails lists, but I don't think I posted anything about it until now.

In the constitution, our Armed Forces can not be deployed on American soil for law enforcement. (that is the job of the National Guard)

US Army To Assist Law Enforcement in the U.S.? (http://swfreedomlover.wordpress.com/2008/09/25/us-army-to-assist-law-enforcement-in-the-us/)

In case you didn't notice, the source for this is the Army Times, a publication of the US Army.

Pizza God

Apr 04 2009, 09:56 PM

This is a part of a new Fox internet show with Judge Napolitano called Freedom Watch. In this segment, he talks about a guy who was stopped at the airport because he had too much money on him. When he asked if he was required by law to answer there questions, they threatening to arrest him.

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/XfYwmXgEE58&color1=0xb1b1b1&color2=0xcfcfcf&feature=player_embedded&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/XfYwmXgEE58&color1=0xb1b1b1&color2=0xcfcfcf&feature=player_embedded&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

I personally have not flown in a while now, and really don't want to because they want you to take your shoes off. I have thought about refusing to, but have not had the guts. Next time I fly, I plan on getting there VERY early and doing just that.

Pizza God

Apr 04 2009, 10:03 PM

Now that I think of it, I don't think I will every fly again if I don't have to.

DEVO

Apr 06 2009, 11:58 AM

Did anyone ever really think that the magnetic strips in our bills were to prevent counterfeiting?

Pizza God

Apr 21 2009, 08:08 PM

Senate Proposal Could Put Heavy Restrictions on Internet Freedoms (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/04/21/proposed-heavy-restrictions-internet-freedoms/)

There are a few things I have problems with in this bill. I really have a problem with any president being able to shut down the internet. (not that he couldn't do it anyways)

Right now the American government does not block web sites as in censorship. Other countries do (specially countries like China)

Again, like many other things the government does, it is all about control.

Pizza God

Apr 27 2009, 03:02 AM

This video speaks for itself. This is a Baptist pastor who was attacked by DPS and Boarder Patrol at a checkpoint.

He explains the rest.
<object width="445" height="364"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/YUzd7G875Hc&hl=en&fs=1&rel=0&color1=0x5d1719&color2=0xcd311b&border=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/YUzd7G875Hc&hl=en&fs=1&rel=0&color1=0x5d1719&color2=0xcd311b&border=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="445" height="364"></embed></object>

There is another video with him I am watching next.

Pizza God

Apr 27 2009, 03:31 AM

This was also recently

<object width="445" height="364"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/WYDw1Za8F-I&hl=en&fs=1&rel=0&color1=0x5d1719&color2=0xcd311b&border=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/WYDw1Za8F-I&hl=en&fs=1&rel=0&color1=0x5d1719&color2=0xcd311b&border=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="445" height="364"></embed></object>

Pizza God

Apr 27 2009, 03:58 AM

Start Watching this video at 8min (or you can watch Ron Paul if you like)
This video is from another time Pastor Steve Anderson drove though one of these checkpoints.

<object width="580" height="360"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/tdk4VtwWoNc&hl=en&fs=1&rel=0&color1=0x5d1719&color2=0xcd311b&border=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/tdk4VtwWoNc&hl=en&fs=1&rel=0&color1=0x5d1719&color2=0xcd311b&border=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="580" height="360"></embed></object>
Pt 2
finished up with the first tape, then cut to him talking about the case from a few weeks ago.
<object width="580" height="360"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/JYTf-Pht3Bc&hl=en&fs=1&rel=0&color1=0x5d1719&color2=0xcd311b&border=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/JYTf-Pht3Bc&hl=en&fs=1&rel=0&color1=0x5d1719&color2=0xcd311b&border=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="580" height="360"></embed></object>
Part 3 of the interview (ends around the 4 min mark, but hey talk about it some more with the next guest till 7:40 mark)
<object width="580" height="360"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/UCx-D1jJm5g&hl=en&fs=1&rel=0&color1=0x5d1719&color2=0xcd311b&border=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/UCx-D1jJm5g&hl=en&fs=1&rel=0&color1=0x5d1719&color2=0xcd311b&border=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="580" height="360"></embed></object>

This is the last part of the show, I included it because the interview with the last guy was pretty good.

<object width="580" height="360"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/EwuHW7Gu6OM&hl=en&fs=1&rel=0&color1=0x5d1719&color2=0xcd311b&border=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/EwuHW7Gu6OM&hl=en&fs=1&rel=0&color1=0x5d1719&color2=0xcd311b&border=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="580" height="360"></embed></object>

The Show is called Freedom Watch from the Fox News Situation Room. The show comes on Every Wednesday at 2pm EST.

I usually watch the replay on YouTube. For more information on the show, here is the link
Freedom Watch (http://freedomwatchonfox.com/about)

Pizza God

May 05 2009, 04:15 PM

Pizza God

May 20 2009, 12:12 AM

Pizza God

May 23 2009, 06:27 PM

Pizza God

Jun 01 2009, 11:43 PM

Pizza God

Jun 20 2009, 10:04 PM

I posted some on this a while back, this is sort of an update on NATIONAL MSM news.

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/UcSSwW4K4AU&color1=0xb1b1b1&color2=0xcfcfcf&feature=player_embedded&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/UcSSwW4K4AU&color1=0xb1b1b1&color2=0xcfcfcf&feature=player_embedded&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

Pizza God

Sep 25 2009, 05:21 PM

Pizza God

Sep 25 2009, 05:28 PM

Pizza God

Sep 25 2009, 05:29 PM

Pizza God

Sep 25 2009, 05:35 PM

I think that last video is part of this group. One thing I notice is how the protesters (I don't know what group they are with) pushed a dumpster towards the police. That was wrong, sometimes in larger protests you have two things that happen, you have the Anarchist who want mayhem, or you have "Agent Provocateurs" that want the same thing.

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/p/709ECDC88D070CD3&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/p/709ECDC88D070CD3&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="480" height="385" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true"></embed></object>

Pizza God

Sep 25 2009, 05:42 PM

I just got this one emailed to me.

I am not sure what I am seeing here. It is against the law for the Military to enforce law inside of the USA.

The reason I question this video is why are there people in fatigues grabbing that dude, and why do they force him into an unmarked car.

<object width="560" height="340"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/vWH8gvSflTc&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/vWH8gvSflTc&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="560" height="340"></embed></object>

bruce_brakel

Sep 25 2009, 08:05 PM

I posted some on this a while back, this is sort of an update on NATIONAL MSM news.

<EMBED src=http://www.youtube.com/v/UcSSwW4K4AU&color1=0xb1b1b1&color2=0xcfcfcf&feature=player_embedded&fs=1 width=425 height=344 type=application/x-shockwave-flash allowScriptAccess="always" allowfullscreen="true"></EMBED>
Normally the ACLU is full of ****. It is nice to see them defending a constitutional right that is in the constitution, for a change.

Pizza God

Sep 26 2009, 08:31 PM

Watch at the 4:00 mark, a girl and a boy are in front of the riot police, the guy is trying to keep the girl in front, they never make any move towards the policemen, but one of the policemen breaks rank and attacks them for no apparent reason.

BTW, this starts off at PITT with the riot police attacking students who were just watching what was going on. (you can even hear them doing a school yell)

<object width="560" height="340"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/2RlVKgIfqsk&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/2RlVKgIfqsk&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="560" height="340"></embed></object>

Pizza God

Sep 26 2009, 08:40 PM

Well apparently that video is real

http://rawstory.com/2009/09/video-appears-to-show-us-troops-kidnapping-protester/

This article explains who those people were in the fatigues.

I just got this one emailed to me.

I am not sure what I am seeing here. It is against the law for the Military to enforce law inside of the USA.

The reason I question this video is why are there people in fatigues grabbing that dude, and why do they force him into an unmarked car.

<object width="560" height="340">

<embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/vWH8gvSflTc&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="560" height="340"></object>

Pizza God

Sep 27 2009, 01:14 AM

Really, a photo opt?

<object width="560" height="340"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/WLBrS6YKHZY&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/WLBrS6YKHZY&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="560" height="340"></embed></object>

Lyle O Ross

Sep 28 2009, 03:22 PM

Don't forget that increasingly our government looks to private police and military companies to handle such things. Go look up Blackwater now known as Xe or some such.

Big E

Sep 30 2009, 04:52 PM

I miss you:)

Lyle O Ross

Oct 01 2009, 11:54 AM

I miss you:)

What, Obama hasn't lied enough for you yet?

Big E

Oct 01 2009, 12:54 PM

What, Obama hasn't lied enough for you yet?

That was the point he talks so much without revealing anything! It is hard to tell if you can trust him because he might be holding something back. Like the way we have to hurry to do everything except the important things at hand like adjusting strategies in the wars we are involved in! “Hey I know the economy is messed up and we are at war but I am to busy for that I need to get the Olympics in my home town”! You still infatuated by Obama? Never mind I already know the answer! For someone who is so quick to check the facts maybe now would be a good time to start with this president! I am sure there is something you disagree about his policies and actions!

james_mccaine

Oct 01 2009, 01:24 PM

wow, the guy lobbies for the olympics. what a scoundrel.

Lyle O Ross

Oct 01 2009, 03:30 PM

That was the point he talks so much without revealing anything! It is hard to tell if you can trust him because he might be holding something back. Like the way we have to hurry to do everything except the important things at hand like adjusting strategies in the wars we are involved in! �Hey I know the economy is messed up and we are at war but I am to busy for that I need to get the Olympics in my home town�! You still infatuated by Obama? Never mind I already know the answer! For someone who is so quick to check the facts maybe now would be a good time to start with this president! I am sure there is something you disagree about his policies and actions!

I suspect he is thinking more globally about his legacy than about any specific issue. I might argue that there are issues that are more important than the two wars we're in, in terms of our long term future. Those wars were a mistake and should be ended sooner rather than later.

Obama has two problems, first, he is too much of a compromiser instead of a position guy, and second, we've given our Presidents, i.e. the Executive branch way too much power. The power that now lies in that branch is much more than the founding fathers intended, and more importantly, more than is good for either this country or the world. The same as it allowed Bush too much leeway, it now allows Obama too much leeway. We are meant to have checks and balances and right now, we have either none, or a stagnant Congress where the rules meant to give adequate checks and balances have been extended to give stagnation. One out of control branch, and one powerless branch. Combine that with the Judicial which has found for big business in every case before over the past few years, and you've got a bad situation...

Obama has reneged on several key campaign promises, support of a public option in health care, a more open, and clearer government, truly getting out of Iraq and others. On the other hand, he is actually a credible President who listens, has clear intelligence, and doesn't think that America walks on water. I may not like some of the things he's done, but at least I can respect the man, sort of.

Lyle O Ross

Oct 01 2009, 03:36 PM

wow, the guy lobbies for the olympics. what a scoundrel.

Not just any Olympics, but an Olympics in Chicago! :) Think we can get 5000 drummers in Soldier Field pounding in unison? China set a pretty high bar.

Big E

Oct 01 2009, 04:12 PM

I suspect he is thinking more globally about his legacy than about any specific issue. I might argue that there are issues that are more important than the two wars we're in, in terms of our long term future. Those wars were a mistake and should be ended sooner rather than later.

Obama has two problems, first, he is too much of a compromiser instead of a position guy, and second, we've given our Presidents, i.e. the Executive branch way too much power. The power that now lies in that branch is much more than the founding fathers intended, and more importantly, more than is good for either this country or the world. The same as it allowed Bush too much leeway, it now allows Obama too much leeway. We are meant to have checks and balances and right now, we have either none, or a stagnant Congress where the rules meant to give adequate checks and balances have been extended to give stagnation. One out of control branch, and one powerless branch. Combine that with the Judicial which has found for big business in every case before over the past few years, and you've got a bad situation...

Obama has reneged on several key campaign promises, support of a public option in health care, a more open, and clearer government, truly getting out of Iraq and others. On the other hand, he is actually a credible President who listens, has clear intelligence, and doesn't think that America walks on water. I may not like some of the things he's done, but at least I can respect the man, sort of.

Not that you would care:) But I respect you more knowing that you actually have a belief that is more in line with the republican party:) Joking! Anyways thanks for the answer. I really do like to hear your opinion (most of the time) because I believe that being informed on both sides point of view is the best way to get a overall perspective!

Lyle O Ross

Oct 02 2009, 12:38 PM

I believe that our government should be accountable to us, not to those with money and power. That was after all, the basis of the formation of this country. I don't like the fact that money controls so much of what we are, regardless of where it comes from. I strongly believe in individual freedom, no matter at what level. If I have the right to be married, atheist, and contrarian, than you have the right to worship, be ***, and shoot squirrels in your back yard. I don't like that we feel the right to tell our fellow citizens how to live their lives or that we use the rest of the world as our labor and resource supply.

Most of all, I like fiscal responsibility. That doesn't mean don't spend money, it means spend money wisely, whether it is on social services, the military, medical etc. We are the kings of spending money unwisely, because what drives us is, the moneyed interests. I don't like that we give more money to the rich, but that good marketing makes us think we give more money to the poor. This makes me an old style republican, an Eisenhower republican. A breed that is dead in this country.

What peeves me the most, is that we ignore facts to go with our gut instinct. Sometimes the facts just don't support what we most want and we have to accept that and do the right thing. Of course we never do.

Lyle O Ross

Oct 02 2009, 12:43 PM

BTW - I am somewhat irritated by the fact that the last generation worked their tails off to put controls on big business meant to control their most raptious behaviors, and we allowed our generation to remove them with out much comment with the resulting mess. How very stupid of us.

No system is wrong or right, be it Capitalism, Socialism, Communism, Democracy, Theocracy, or even Dictatorship. Only the way the system is run is right or wrong. Good people will have a good outcome in any system, and bad or lazy people will have a bad outcome. We see it every day.

tkieffer

Oct 02 2009, 04:42 PM

Pizza God

Oct 03 2009, 09:15 PM

1st, I do not visit "Infowars.com" I do not buy into everything they say. However this video was put together by someone who does.

There are a few things that should unsettle you in this video, several of the shots were some I have not seen yet.

<object width="560" height="340">

<embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/S83klH5ke0w&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="560" height="340"></object>

Lyle O Ross

Oct 05 2009, 03:22 PM

"No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time." - Winston Churchill

IMO, its a good system, the best system. But it works a lot better if the people who should be in control (i.e. the voters) hold up their end of the deal and vote at all levels for people they feel will represent them as opposed to outside money interests. Hold up our end of the deal by learning about those running for election and get beyond judging on the big money funded national media sound bites, talk show quips and campaign ad mud slings. Maybe even taking advantage of the opportunities to ask questions, get clarifications and express views.

It may be us who are guilty of being the lazy people in this system and hold a great deal of responsibility for the outcomes.

Interesting, I've often felt that Democracy only works in a few settings. Let me begin by saying that IMO there is clear evidence that America can only very loosely be called a Democracy. Fundamentally I'd argue that we are a Capitalism. If my memory serves me correctly, in something over 90% of the cases, the person who spends the most wins the election. The conservatives would gain a lot of credibility with me if they'd recognize this in the case of Mr. Obama, Mr. Bush and on and on. There are exceptions, but in general, it's a pretty good measure.

If you look deeper into the American electorate, even on the notions of participation and each person deserving a vote, we've had huge discrepancies from the start with women being denied the vote and blacks only counting as 3/5ths of a person. Even today, there is much manipulation of who gets to vote, who is inclined to vote, and how votes are counted. There was clear manipulation of votes in 2000 and 2004 and there is clear agitation at efforts to make sure that the poor and disenfranchised get to vote by the right - please see the long standing effort to take apart Acorn.

The plain and simple fact is that those who hold the money bag don't care who wins, as long as they can control the outcome, and generally, they do.

Democracy works best in small settings where:

a) cheating is obvious
b) your neighbor knows if you don't participate and holds you accountable
c) everyone knows the candidates and their positions, both stated, and real
d) all people feel compelled to participate

Democracy worked well in the Greek city-states for exactly these reasons.

To me there is a bigger underlying issue with Democracy and that is, there are different flavors. America's flavor of the month is all or nothing. We are committed to the two party system and as a consequence, there is no real way to demonstrate your dissatisfaction with that system. The clear example is that of the Libertarians and the Progressives. Each has valid concerns about how this country spends it's time and money, neither is represented to the true level that they deserve. There are systems that accommodate other parties, see England for example, but they are not present in the U.S. IMO, changing our system so that those other parties could be accurately represented would go a long ways towards changing the nonchalance with which our leadership treats the public.

bruce_brakel

Oct 05 2009, 03:53 PM

Interesting, I've often felt that Democracy only works in a few settings. Let me begin by saying that IMO there is clear evidence that America can only very loosely be called a Democracy. Fundamentally I'd argue that we are a Capitalism. If my memory serves me correctly, in something over 90% of the cases, the person who spends the most wins the election. This may be true. However, you may be making a causal assumption that is unwarranted. In some instances it may be that the person who spends the most does so because he has the most support and therefore collects the most to spend. Some of these candidates may get elected not because they outspent their opponent, but simply because they ran in a gerrymandered district where they were all but guaranteed to win.

james_mccaine

Oct 05 2009, 04:52 PM

Well said Tim. Our politicians suck because we suck.

kkrasinski

Oct 06 2009, 08:58 AM

Some of these candidates may get elected not because they outspent their opponent, but simply because they ran in a gerrymandered district where they were all but guaranteed to win.

Who historically controls the redistricting? The wage earners? The disenfranchised? I think you are looking at Lyle's point too narrowly.

tkieffer

Oct 06 2009, 03:39 PM

Democracy works best in small settings where:

a) cheating is obvious
b) your neighbor knows if you don't participate and holds you accountable
c) everyone knows the candidates and their positions, both stated, and real
d) all people feel compelled to participate

Democracy worked well in the Greek city-states for exactly these reasons.

To me there is a bigger underlying issue with Democracy and that is, there are different flavors. America's flavor of the month is all or nothing. We are committed to the two party system and as a consequence, there is no real way to demonstrate your dissatisfaction with that system. The clear example is that of the Libertarians and the Progressives. Each has valid concerns about how this country spends it's time and money, neither is represented to the true level that they deserve. There are systems that accommodate other parties, see England for example, but they are not present in the U.S. IMO, changing our system so that those other parties could be accurately represented would go a long ways towards changing the nonchalance with which our leadership treats the public.

I think a more involved voting public could result in the views of other parties being presented. But such a voting public would have to reach out beyond what the money is deciding to spoon out.

The money wins because the money can reach so many voters whose opinions of the issues are formed only by what is fed to them. They won't get up (me included) and get out to research, hear opposing views, form their own opinions, call out elected officials who aren't standing up for what they feel is right and so on. We don't hear messages beyond what the two parties dish out because we'd actually have to make an effort to access it. It's too easy form your opinion (or level of apathy) while sitting back and getting fed the slop of 30 second smear ads ("John X once ran over a squirrel. John X, bad for the environment, bad for America"), YouTube clips, blog rants and talk show propaganda.

How many people at least still read editorials? For most of us, doing so would take too long. Points A through D above that you mention is needed, but I'm not sure the voting public is capable anymore.

The fact that presidential hopefuls feel it necessary to make a stop on Leno kind of illustrates the situation. Pass the chips, bring on more orchestrated fluff.