Here is a cool, informative clip from an awesome video production of the 2007 and 2008 St Louis Open.
Jay Lewis is doing some really great work, please subscribe to his You tube account and check out all his videos.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3CMMSBUvXk

Right about the 1:50 mark Nikko Throws a bad shot and scrapes the ground immediately afterwards:

Would you consider this a courtesy violation?

Feel free to comment or explain your vote.

I am used to this kind of tantrum. It goes hand in hand with young competitive players, and fades to a more vocal style over time, until it finally hits a big smile. I don't think it is a violation of any kind. Now, if Nikko broke a branch or something, that's a different story. Normally when someone is having a tantrum, it's because they're giving away strokes, not playing to their ability. Calling them on a violation for being frustrated doesn't seem helpful in any way. If they're just loud and destructive, I'll be the first to call them out.

I had a guy flip out on my card once. First he parked a tough shot and had a 7 foot putt for bird. He picked up his disc, jumped up, and tried to putt from between his legs. He missed. Lame. So he's humble again. Next hole......he throws a decent drive and ends up 25 feet from basket:

Putt #1: missed
Putt #2: missed
Putt #3: missed

He then grabs his bag and empties it all over the green. He then picks up every disc and begins throwing them all over the course, while constantly blurting out profanities. Guess what, he's 19, but this is ridiculous. Technically he probably took something like a 30 on that hole, considering all the violations, and penalty strokes from discs everywhere. But instead I asked him for the card, which was still in his bag, then me and 3 others moved on without him. He ended up walking off to his car, coming to his senses, and came and found us an hour later and apologized.

On a side note, that tournament ended up being my first win. yay.

I first noticed Nikko's unsportsmanlike attitude after he had a bad round at Worlds this last weekend. I'm sure those that play with him often could tell some stories.

Nikkos girlfriend when asked do you ever play? "I don't like playing with him, actually I don't know anyone who likes playing with him"


OUCH!!!!!!! You got to have FUN. It's about playing golf with great people, not being the greatest ever.

Would I consider it a courtesy violation, Yes.
Would I call the courtesy violation, depends.

If this was the first outburst of the round/tournament, No.
If this happened every time the player failed to reach perfection, Yes.

The deciding factor would really be whether the player seemed to have a problem with frustration or self control. Almost every player will have momentary lapses of etiquette when a shot they have placed a lot of internal emphasis on fails to deliver. It is when that reaction occurs more than a couple shots per round, or gets loud and distracting that it needs to be called.

The call is as much for the player involved as it is for the group. The player needs to know that their behavior is not acceptable, is causing comments beyond the round, and is likely damaging their reputation. If it is not called, they may not realize the severity of the problem.

Would I consider it a courtesy violation, Yes.
Would I call the courtesy violation, depends.

If this was the first outburst of the round/tournament, No.
If this happened every time the player failed to reach perfection, Yes.

The deciding factor would really be whether the player seemed to have a problem with frustration or self control. Almost every player will have momentary lapses of etiquette when a shot they have placed a lot of internal emphasis on fails to deliver. It is when that reaction occurs more than a couple shots per round, or gets loud and distracting that it needs to be called.

The call is as much for the player involved as it is for the group. The player needs to know that their behavior is not acceptable, is causing comments beyond the round, and is likely damaging their reputation. If it is not called, they may not realize the severity of the problem.



i actually agree with pretty much everything you said... i think its out of line and grounds for a courtesy violation (warning) but might not call it depending on the circumstances you mentioned.

I probably should've gotten a courtesy violation for throwing my mouse and breaking my keyboard on my way to this thread! ;)

Its a tough call... :p

Was he "scraping" the ground in front of his lie.. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Then it WOULD be a violation for altering the course... :p

First time......I might let it slide and have a "discussion"

After that...Warnings & Strokes...... :(

Its SAD to see TOP players react in this manner....regardless of AGE
:D

brief displays of temper and frustration are a small thing to worry about. while it looks bad to be beating up the grass, that outburst was nothing foreign to enthusiasts of almost any sport. even the girl indy racers do it. a little passion is great for any sport, including disc golf.

along these lines... has anyone ever heard of giving someone a warning at the start of the round before anything happens? i've never experienced it but have heard of some people warning guys that have reputations of slow play, outburts, etc.

what say ye great message board gurus on that one?

I would personally disregard it as a warning and take it as advice. If I actually got a second warning I would consider it the first official warning. I have never given a warning but have given advice during a round.

what say ye great message board gurus on that one?



I would say that there is no courtesy violation that has occurred as of yet, and I would do EVERYTHING in my power to screw with that person the rest of the round. 30 second calls, foot faults, falling putts, EVERYTHING is getting pointed out.

If you are going to "warn" me before we even play one throw then I'm gonna make you think about everything you do from there on out.

garbage.

btw, this DID happen to me, and I DIDNT do as above. That is why I promised myself if it ever did happen again that the above action would occur. FYI.

The ones who might to do an early warning would be a TD or PDGA marshal. In which case, it might be hard to mess with them during the round.

So would you have called his leaping, flying putt on the very next throw?

altering the rules like that would require an exemption from the tour manager. those are currently in the rules of play.

if someone tried to make a warning before the round, i'd simply say "ok, your point is made and heard, but a warning before the round means nothing and doesnt count as a warning."

I believe the Competition Director has actually issued an official warning before a round either to an individual or group, possibly at PW2006. But I wasn't talking about an official warning, just the fact that a TD or marshal might say something that sounds like a warning before a group starts without having it be an official warning.

The ones who might to do an early warning would be a TD or PDGA marshal. In which case, it might be hard to mess with them during the round.



clearly Chuck. thats a completely different argument. You know he meant a player on your card.

and I wouldn't "mess" with anyone. Rules are rules, right? ;)

last I heard you do have 30 seconds to throw. better believe the clock is started the second you step foot behind your lie.
last I heard you arent allowed falling putts.
last I heard foot faults are still punishable.

:cool::eek: :D:D:D

As regards the video clip and Dave's question - I am really quite surprised that anyone allows this sort of thing to go unchecked.

Please reference 804.05.A.2

If that is not willful destruction or abuse of plant life I don't know what is.

The ones who might to do an early warning would be a TD or PDGA marshal. In which case, it might be hard to mess with them during the round.



clearly Chuck. thats a completely different argument. You know he meant a player on your card.

and I wouldn't "mess" with anyone. Rules are rules, right? ;)

last I heard you do have 30 seconds to throw. better believe the clock is started the second you step foot behind your lie.
last I heard you arent allowed falling putts.
last I heard foot faults are still punishable by death

:cool::eek: :D:D:D

This is one of those ambiguous rules because "courtesy" is different to everyone. I know some people who hate cursing on the course, but I'm perfectly fine with it. Some need to smoke, and me I'm allergic to cigaretter smoke so I hate it. I dont believe Nikko's little tantrum would be considered a courtesy violation because IMO, a courtesy violation must be directed at a person or intentionally causes group frustration such as the one dude emptying out his entire bag and walking off. Just IMO I believe a courtesy violation only applies when it's intentionally or unintentionally directed towards an individual or group causing physical, mental, or emotional harm.

Nikko's outburst IMO was not directed intentionally or unintentionally towards the goup but merely to himself for not achiecing the desired shot. He would not have shown any intent of physically, emotionally, or mentally harming the group as a whole.

was playing in a group earlier this year and after the card leader in our group threw the guy who was 2 strokes behind blurted out 'hit a tree, hit a tree' - how would you guys interpret that? would you throw a warning his way?

later on he would cough just about the time the guy would take his first step in his run up...

needless to say this cat fell apart and did not win the event...karma had it's way with him i suppose

Even though talking doesn't affect the flight of the disc, if it messes with you, you can ask the player not to talk about your shot if you wish and warn them, even more so for the throat clearing during run-up.

was playing in a group earlier this year and after the card leader in our group threw the guy who was 2 strokes behind blurted out 'hit a tree, hit a tree' - how would you guys interpret that? would you throw a warning his way?

later on he would cough just about the time the guy would take his first step in his run up...

needless to say this cat fell apart and did not win the event...karma had it's way with him i suppose



I would encourage people to tell my disc to hit a tree. My discs don't mind, so it would be a good thing. :D:D:D

was playing in a group earlier this year and after the card leader in our group threw the guy who was 2 strokes behind blurted out 'hit a tree, hit a tree' - how would you guys interpret that? would you throw a warning his way?

later on he would cough just about the time the guy would take his first step in his run up...

needless to say this cat fell apart and did not win the event...karma had it's way with him i suppose



I would encourage people to tell my disc to hit a tree. My discs don't mind, so it would be a good thing. :D:D:D



2nd! as a matter of fact after hearing how much people liked Yeti's getting the crowd going during the putting comp. @ worlds I'm thinking we should have all events be like that. Encourage cheering/whistling/clapping ... more white noise would make the small things like cards honking in the distance or players across the course talking/yelling unnoticeable. And the fans dig it (wait... we need fans)

We need to find the 'get in the hole' guy from PGA events and get him to come to USDGC ;)

As regards the video clip and Dave's question - I am really quite surprised that anyone allows this sort of thing to go unchecked.

Please reference 804.05.A.2

If that is not willful destruction or abuse of plant life I don't know what is.



I agree this could be a DQable offense as per 804.05.A(2) or A(1), but I doubt anyone will ever call it.

Years ago, there was an up and coming player in Minnesota that would throw immature tantrums. At one event he threw a huge temper tantrum that would put a two year old to shame. The Women's group was ready to issue a courtesy warning, but we knew the rest of his group would not follow through. The top pros he was playing with were all rolling on the ground laughing at his emotional meltdown.

Even if the behavior is a courtesy violation or unsportsmanlike, I doubt players will call it (unless it somehow affects them). They will likely sit back and watch him self destruct with a smile on their face.

along these lines... has anyone ever heard of giving someone a warning at the start of the round before anything happens? i've never experienced it but have heard of some people warning guys that have reputations of slow play, outburts, etc.



there was a girl playing in advanced women at the 2007 pittsburgh open that warned the rest of the card (and field) before the first round that she had a long night coming into town and would be stroking people for taking too long to throw. she didn't follow through on the threat; but don't think she made too many friends that way either.

As regards the video clip and Dave's question - I am really quite surprised that anyone allows this sort of thing to go unchecked.

Please reference 804.05.A.2

If that is not willful destruction or abuse of plant life I don't know what is.



I agree this could be a DQable offense as per 804.05.A(2) or A(1), but I doubt anyone will ever call it.

Years ago, there was an up and coming player in Minnesota that would throw immature tantrums. At one event he threw a huge temper tantrum that would put a two year old to shame. The Women's group was ready to issue a courtesy warning, but we knew the rest of his group would not follow through. The top pros he was playing with were all rolling on the ground laughing at his emotional meltdown.

Even if the behavior is a courtesy violation or unsportsmanlike, I doubt players will call it (unless it somehow affects them). They will likely sit back and watch him self destruct with a smile on their face.



Good point, why call him on it and take the chance of him getting his head back together? Might as well let him have a total meltdown and bogie the rest of the course. :)

As regards the video clip and Dave's question - I am really quite surprised that anyone allows this sort of thing to go unchecked.

Please reference 804.05.A.2

If that is not willful destruction or abuse of plant life I don't know what is.



I agree this could be a DQable offense as per 804.05.A(2) or A(1), but I doubt anyone will ever call it.


Two things:
1. I agree this is willful destruction of plant life
2. I probably wouldn't call it the first time

My question is what about people that clear the ground with their foot for a putt? The bull stomp, grinding their heel/foot in to clear out debris?
If they tear up the grass, is that willful destruction of plant life?

Even if the behavior is a courtesy violation or unsportsmanlike, I doubt players will call it (unless it somehow affects them). They will likely sit back and watch him self destruct with a smile on their face.



This is the main issue with self-policing. It puts everyone in a dual role as competitor and judge and there is an obvious conflict of interests. People have trouble being assertive and taking on a role of authority gracefully, especially in the heat of competition. I would say something like 75% of the calls I've seen open players make at tournaments came when THE PERSON WHO MADE THE CALL was struggling and negative. Sometimes there is substance to the call, sometimes its very picky, but the bottom line is the person who made the call wouldn't have if they were tearing it up on the course.

Because of this I usually avoid making calls that aren't game changing. I usually just give "advice", and b/c I teach middle school during the day I usually succeed in getting my point across in a positive manner and avoid clouding my group in negativity. I quietly go to the person in a friendly manner and ask them if they noticed themselves doing ________. Then using non-verbal expressions that communicate it is still friendly and I'm not angry or trying to "get ahead" of them by using the rules, I share my observations. This may seem like a lot of work, but it goes a long way to save a person's dignity and keep the group positive...And I play better (or at least I am less distracted) when my competitors possess good attitudes.

My question is what about people that clear the ground with their foot for a putt? The bull stomp, grinding their heel/foot in to clear out debris?
If they tear up the grass, is that willful destruction of plant life?



The difference I see between the video and the bull stomp (as you call it) is that there was obviously some tall grass that served as an obstacle to Nikko's throwing motion - which is apparently why he lashed out at it (it got in his way). Damaging an obstacle is different (at least to me) than assuming a stance where establishing footing may trample grass - but otherwise is not an obstacle to executing the throw.

Would I consider it a courtesy violation, Yes.
Would I call the courtesy violation, depends.

If this was the first outburst of the round/tournament, No.
If this happened every time the player failed to reach perfection, Yes.

The deciding factor would really be whether the player seemed to have a problem with frustration or self control. Almost every player will have momentary lapses of etiquette when a shot they have placed a lot of internal emphasis on fails to deliver. It is when that reaction occurs more than a couple shots per round, or gets loud and distracting that it needs to be called.

The call is as much for the player involved as it is for the group. The player needs to know that their behavior is not acceptable, is causing comments beyond the round, and is likely damaging their reputation. If it is not called, they may not realize the severity of the problem.



Agreed

I didn't see this video as a courtesy violation. Nikko took out his frustrations on the grass with a few swipes. Did nothing to affect anybody in his group, and then got up and moved on. Did his outburst interfere with someone else's throwing in his group? Didn't seem like it. Didn't seem like it did anything to really mess with the others in his group in general. Just a few angry swipes at grass and then moved on.

Open players and the leader card in the adv. division would call it a voilation. All other divisions would NOT call it. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

I am not that sure about it. I saw a top level Innova pro kick his bag pretty hard at Worlds just last week and nobody said a word.

I would say it's rare for anyone to call a courtesy violation not just because people dont want to seem like the bad guy, but because no one really cares how other players react unless it directly affects them. One of my friends has one of the worse tempers on the course, always cursing and kicking his bag over in a tournament. I dont call it on him because it doesnt affect me, and also it would be hypocritical because even I have some outbursts such as cursing. We all have outbursts from time to time, granted some more than others and I believe harm must be intended towards one player from another before it counts as a "courtesy" violation.

My question is what about people that clear the ground with their foot for a putt? The bull stomp, grinding their heel/foot in to clear out debris?
If they tear up the grass, is that willful destruction of plant life?



The difference I see between the video and the bull stomp (as you call it) is that there was obviously some tall grass that served as an obstacle to Nikko's throwing motion - which is apparently why he lashed out at it (it got in his way). Damaging an obstacle is different (at least to me) than assuming a stance where establishing footing may trample grass - but otherwise is not an obstacle to executing the throw.


I agree, just curious of other opinions. :)

I would say it's rare for anyone to call a courtesy violation not just because people dont want to seem like the bad guy, but because no one really cares how other players react unless it directly affects them. One of my friends has one of the worse tempers on the course, always cursing and kicking his bag over in a tournament. I dont call it on him because it doesnt affect me, and also it would be hypocritical because even I have some outbursts such as cursing. We all have outbursts from time to time, granted some more than others and I believe harm must be intended towards one player from another before it counts as a "courtesy" violation.



I'm not sure I get what you're saying, but it kind of sounds like since you do not hold yourself to a higher standard that we should just accept tantrums, cursing, etc...This affects something much more important than your performance in a round, it affects the image of the game we all love and wish to promote. I for one cannot stand any of this self-centered, juvenilistic wah wah...This makes our sport look like a joke more than anything else, especially when some of our top athletes engage in this rhetoric. Disappointment is one thing, spurts of rage are outward lashings at something that the sport of GOLF expects you to deal with INTERNALLY. If you are just mad at yourself, then why communicate it to the rest of the group with a crybaby "why me?" tantrum? Psychologically speaking the only purpose of overt verbal and non-verbal behavior of the sort we're talking about it to communicate to others...if not they would keep it to themselves. So everybody, don't let the selfish babies (not calling you this Dude...) communicate their frustrations to you in this manner, they DO NOT have that right. The purpose of this behavior is ABSOLUTELY to bring the other competitors on the card down, whether the individual doing it is conscious of this or not. Everyone in our sport, starting with sponsership entities, TDS, and marshalls need to step up our enforcement of this things as the coverage of our sport goes from still photos to video.

Final thought on the Nikko thing...he is a kid. He would never behave like that if he hadn't learned the standard from the pros he plays with. It is up to us as a sport to hit these top gun babies where it hurts--by strokes and $. When a standard of professionalism is set, young players like Nikko will abide. Advice for when things are not going your way during a tournament: if you are not playing your best golf it is not total failure...you can still be a great sportsman and teach younger players how to handle it maturely in a way that shows your love for this game.

I hold myself up to a very high standard of play, and I try my best to be as courteous as possible, but I do not consider some kids outburst as courtesy violation because "courtesy" is a subjective term. I actually find myself laughing when people have huge tantrums. Maybe I'm a sadist? IMO, they're hurting themselves and if they're beating themselves down I say do it. Now, if the person starts verbally abusing players then I will call courtest violation and possibly ask the TD for said player to be DQ'ed because there is never a situation to attack another player. Since "courtesy" is subjective I only call it when I feel someone is being dis-courteous. Luckily, I've never been in a situation where I felt someone was breaking a "courtesy" violation.

I believe if there is to be a courtesy violation rule then the PDGA must set clear guidlelines as to what courtesy means, and make sure they're not guidelines that are subjective to interpretation by the player. Example...

No cursing
No kicking golf bag

Those are clear cut and cant be argued against.

In that particular situation, I wouldn't call him on it. I agree with one of the previous posters in that it (courtesy violation) is subjective. If a person is getting on my nerves, then it will be called.

What about calling courtesy violations on people who celebrate? This "show of emotion" isn't overlooked in other sports.

The "If I Cant Be Happy You Cant Be Happy" Rule and comes with 1 stroke penalty. Think of using that on someones ace.

I didn't see this video as a courtesy violation. Nikko took out his frustrations on the grass with a few swipes. Did nothing to affect anybody in his group, and then got up and moved on. Did his outburst interfere with someone else's throwing in his group? Didn't seem like it. Didn't seem like it did anything to really mess with the others in his group in general. Just a few angry swipes at grass and then moved on.



It never ceases to amaze me the lengths to which some will go in order to convince themselves that inappropriate behaviour is acceptable. It's much more efficient to simply call the courtesy violation.

In that particular situation, I wouldn't call him on it. I agree with one of the previous posters in that it (courtesy violation) is subjective. If a person is getting on my nerves, then it will be called.

What about calling courtesy violations on people who celebrate? This "show of emotion" isn't overlooked in other sports.



I would say that excessive celebration when others are waiting to throw could certainly be called a courtesy violation. Think NCAA football. Fist pumps or running to get your putter out of the basket would be fine, but backflips or lengthy celebration dances...

I believe if there is to be a courtesy violation rule then the PDGA must set clear guidlelines as to what courtesy means, and make sure they're not guidelines that are subjective to interpretation by the player. Example...

No cursing
No kicking golf bag

Those are clear cut and cant be argued against.



Dude - Maybe I am reading your statement incorrectly, but it appears you want the PDGA rules on courtesy violations to be clear cut. Perhaps you are not reading the same rules I am, because the rules I have already clearly state that your examples ARE violations.


801.01B. Players should take care not to produce any distracting noises or any potential visual distractions for other players who are throwing. Examples of discourteous actions are: shouting, cursing, freestyling, slapping course equipment, throwing out of turn, throwing or kicking golf bags, throwing minis, and advancing on the fairway beyond the away player.

You can find this rule and the rest of 801.01 here!! (http://www.pdga.com/rules/index.php)


Even though the courtesy rules are clear cut (As you have requested!!), it is still up to the players to make the call.

I didn't see this video as a courtesy violation. Nikko took out his frustrations on the grass with a few swipes. Did nothing to affect anybody in his group, and then got up and moved on. Did his outburst interfere with someone else's throwing in his group? Didn't seem like it. Didn't seem like it did anything to really mess with the others in his group in general. Just a few angry swipes at grass and then moved on.



It never ceases to amaze me the lengths to which some will go in order to convince themselves that inappropriate behaviour is acceptable. It's much more efficient to simply call the courtesy violation.



The issue is in the definition of the word "inappropriate". I think that definition must be made contextually. Nikko's behavior on the video seems such that he will see it and say to himself, "That was silly. I shouldn't do that again." but certainly did not seem stoke-ably offensive. He seemed to have a personal mini melt that would have been private but for presence of the camera. It really does not seem like his partners were involved in his very brief escapade. I had the sound off. If the video was accompanied by "@#$&$# etc" there would be a different story.

Here's one. I missed a 20 ft putt for par on a hole at Worlds. The basket was on a hill at Robert Morris (#11 I think). I had been the last to put and the rest of the group was getting ready to walk to the next hole. I sat down and rolled a few feet down the hill. I got up with my head clear, my mind refereshed and my partners amused. The next hole was a new story and all went well. Had I been in your group I would have been stroked. If that occurred I would have reacted with the same humor and would not let it get under my skin.

What I meant was those 2 rules are the ones that cant be argued against and we need more of them. I'm sorry for the confusion. But I see stuff like freestyling and I'm like "WTF is freestyling?"

But I see stuff like freestyling and I'm like "WTF is freestyling?"



You just made a lot of people feel really old with that comment. LOL

I believe if there is to be a courtesy violation rule then the PDGA must set clear guidlelines as to what courtesy means, and make sure they're not guidelines that are subjective to interpretation by the player. Example...

No cursing
No kicking golf bag

Those are clear cut and cant be argued against.



Dude - Maybe I am reading your statement incorrectly, but it appears you want the PDGA rules on courtesy violations to be clear cut. Perhaps you are not reading the same rules I am, because the rules I have already clearly state that your examples ARE violations.


801.01B. Players should take care not to produce any distracting noises or any potential visual distractions for other players who are throwing. Examples of discourteous actions are: shouting, cursing, freestyling, slapping course equipment, throwing out of turn, throwing or kicking golf bags, throwing minis, and advancing on the fairway beyond the away player.

You can find this rule and the rest of 801.01 here!! (http://www.pdga.com/rules/index.php)





Just so we're all clear on the rules you quoted, cursing and kicking your bag only seem to be listed as a clear-cut courtesy violation when another player is throwing .

I don't see anything else related to these actions in the "Courtesy" section of the rules.

A player could get disqualified for these actions:

"804.05 Disqualification and Suspension

A. A player shall be disqualified by the director for meeting any of the necessary conditions of disqualification as set forth in the rules, or for any of the following:
(1) Unsportsmanlike conduct, such as; loud cursing, throwing things in anger (other than discs in play), or overt rudeness to anyone present"

There doesn't seem to be a rule against quiet (or even moderately toned) cursing after their throw.

Had I been in your group I would have been stroked



An incorrect conclusion, unless you were yelling and screaming while rolling down the hill.

I agree that it hinges on what is considered to be inappropriate, and that there are as many definitions for that as there are players in the PDGA. It's a tough call sometimes. For me, I don't want to be around adults acting like children.

But I see stuff like freestyling and I'm like "WTF is freestyling?"



You just made a lot of people feel really old with that comment. LOL



Really REALLY old!

Freestyling is spinning discs on your finger (also known as delaying), juggling discs, rolling a disc from one hand across your chest to the other hand, etc. Back in the dark ages, disc golfers also freestyled, and did things like maximum time aloft (MTA), accuracy, throw run catch (TRC), double disc court (DDC) and several other disc games.

Men never grow up, they are just boys with more expensive toys.


For me, I don't want to be around adults acting like children.