gdstour
Jul 28 2008, 12:41 PM
Here is a link to a video clip from the upcoming 2008 St Louis Open DVD.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9vsnxcTAyk

The split screen slow-motion that shows all 4 players different techniques for the same 350 controlled turnover is pretty slick and comes on in the final minute.

bruce_brakel
Jul 28 2008, 02:52 PM
Looks like the top two in the 4-way split are foot faulting. Hard to see at full speed. Going frame by frame, still hard to tell. Looks like the back foot does not get off the dirt before the disc is released.

krupicka
Jul 28 2008, 02:54 PM
It looks like there are a pair of foot faults (rear foot touching the ground off the tee at the time of release), or am I just seeing things?

JerryChesterson
Jul 28 2008, 03:03 PM
Pretty cool. Did you insert those bird sounds? :D Sounded like the masters.

bravo
Jul 28 2008, 04:34 PM
when the video is paused at release all the throwers appear to have their plant foot secure and their following foot apearst to be releeased from the ground ahead of the disc release.

bruce_brakel
Jul 28 2008, 06:20 PM
Doesn't look that way to me.

To see it frame by frame, pause when they are almost on the tee. Then double click so you play and pause in short intervals.

Kelsey is here. I'll get her opinion.

Kelsey's opinion is the guy on the upper left is definately foot faulting and the guy on the upper right is too close to call. She also says, "They're cheating whether they are foot faulting or not." She thinks its cheating to try to push the rules to the line and hope no one ever calls it.

bravo
Jul 28 2008, 06:30 PM
i see what your seeing also.
the feet on both players are blurred at disc release, arnt they?

krazyeye
Jul 28 2008, 07:05 PM
No way.

bravo
Jul 28 2008, 07:57 PM
barys foot is already creating a dust cloud away from the plant location nikkos appears to still remane stopped at release

JerryChesterson
Jul 28 2008, 08:01 PM
Doesn't look that way to me.

To see it frame by frame, pause when they are almost on the tee. Then double click so you play and pause in short intervals.

Kelsey is here. I'll get her opinion.

Kelsey's opinion is the guy on the upper left is definately foot faulting and the guy on the upper right is too close to call. She also says, "They're cheating whether they are foot faulting or not." She thinks its cheating to try to push the rules to the line and hope no one ever calls it.



Upper left is a definate foot ... although I've never seen that called. Or perhaps the director has specified a modified teeing area for safety reasons.

Jeff_LaG
Jul 28 2008, 08:42 PM
I don't see any foot faults anywhere.

I'm more disappointed to see a hole design at a course used for SuperTour 'A' tier events that encourages players to throw straight at OB and parked cars in the short and middle position, and even to the long pin, JB almost overcooked his drive out of bounds.

MTL21676
Jul 28 2008, 10:22 PM
it looks like Barry is the only one that threw a good shot. Is there a tighter line or something that the gateway threesome threw?

bruce_brakel
Jul 28 2008, 11:08 PM
No, it's just harder to make that throw if you are trying to throw from the tee.

krazyeye
Jul 28 2008, 11:31 PM
Baloney Bruce you are looking for fault where there is none. The only thing wrong is the camera angle lets you lie to yourself and say there is a foot fault.

bazkitcase5
Jul 29 2008, 12:11 AM
yea, has anybody tried to throw a near full power drive while both feet are still on the ground?

its kinda like doing a jump putt for any meaningful distance while both feet are in the air, it just doesn't happen

just like in the video, its almost too close to tell, but I see no foot faults either

krupicka
Jul 29 2008, 08:24 AM
I don't think the camera angle has anything to do with it. It looks like the upper left is a foot fault. Yes it's almost too close to tell. If you look at the thrower in the bottom left, he definitely has both feet on the ground for his full power drive. So I don't see how you can make your statement that when throwing full power that the rear foot is not on the ground.

I find your comparison to jump putting amusing. In one case, for distance you claim the that the foot must be off the ground, but for the other distance effort, the feet must be on the ground.

The only way to clearly say if these are foot faults or not is to look at the raw video which none of us has.

Foot faults aside, I think the split quad screen is a great way to show the difference in techniques. Keep it up Dave.

gotcha
Jul 29 2008, 08:56 AM
I don't think the camera angle has anything to do with it. It looks like the upper left is a foot fault. Yes it's almost too close to tell.



The camera angle has everything to do with it. Think about how many times have we all watched televised sporting events (i.e. football, ice hockey, etc.) and one camera angle is better than another camera's perspective.

krupicka
Jul 29 2008, 09:03 AM
That should make for a great new argument out on the course. If I get called for a foot fault, I'll just claim that the players had a bad viewing angle and if they had stood in a different spot they would see that it wasn't a foot fault.

JerryChesterson
Jul 29 2008, 10:09 AM
I think some of you are confused about the rule. It isn't required to have 2 supporting points on the ground. It is required that ALL supporting points be in the teeing area . A supporting point is a foot or other point of contact with the ground. Clearly Niko has his left foot on the ground outside the teeing area. There is no debating that. Now if his left foot where off the ground it would not be a foot fault.

Personally I think the rule should be changed so that only 1 supporting point is required in the teeing area with no supporting points in front of the teeing area to allow for more angles of approach.

krupicka
Jul 29 2008, 10:22 AM
Trapezoid tee pads (or circles) would take care of giving more options for approach. I think changing the rules to require only one supporting point would make it more confusing, especially when the "front" of the teeing area is not necessarily facing the hole. The course designer put the tee where he designed it. Least we can do is respect the intentions there. In the video above, two players were able to play the same line, but do it where there would be absolutely no question if all supporting points were in the teeing area at the time of release.

gotcha
Jul 29 2008, 10:24 AM
<font color="blue"> 803.02 Teeing Off
A. Play shall begin on each hole with the player throwing from within the teeing area. When the disc is released, at least one of the player’s supporting points must be in contact with the surface of the teeing area, and all the player’s supporting points must be within the teeing area. If a tee pad is provided, all supporting points must be on the pad at the time of release, unless the director has specified a modified teeing area for safety reasons. If no tee pad is provided, all supporting points at the time of release must be within an area encompassed by the front line of the teeing area and two lines perpendicular to and extending back three meters from each end of the front line. The front line of the teeing area includes the outside edges of the two tee markers. Running up from behind the teeing area before the disc is released is permitted. Following through in front of the teeing area is permitted provided there is no supporting point contact outside the teeing area when the disc is released

B. Any supporting point contact outside the teeing area at the time of release constitutes a stance violation and shall be handled in accordance with sections 803.04 F, G and H.

</font>

JerryChesterson
Jul 29 2008, 10:46 AM
<font color="blue"> 803.02 Teeing Off
A. Play shall begin on each hole with the player throwing from within the teeing area. When the disc is released, at least one of the player’s supporting points must be in contact with the surface of the teeing area, and all the player’s supporting points must be within the teeing area. If a tee pad is provided, all supporting points must be on the pad at the time of release, unless the director has specified a modified teeing area for safety reasons. If no tee pad is provided, all supporting points at the time of release must be within an area encompassed by the front line of the teeing area and two lines perpendicular to and extending back three meters from each end of the front line. The front line of the teeing area includes the outside edges of the two tee markers. Running up from behind the teeing area before the disc is released is permitted. Following through in front of the teeing area is permitted provided there is no supporting point contact outside the teeing area when the disc is released

B. Any supporting point contact outside the teeing area at the time of release constitutes a stance violation and shall be handled in accordance with sections 803.04 F, G and H.

</font>



The key being ...
When the disc is released, at least one of the player’s supporting points must be in contact with the surface of the teeing area, and all the player’s supporting points must be within the teeing area. If a tee pad is provided, all supporting points must be on the pad at the time of release, unless the director has specified a modified teeing area for safety reasons.

JerryChesterson
Jul 29 2008, 10:50 AM
I think changing the rules to require only one supporting point would make it more confusing, especially when the "front" of the teeing area is not necessarily facing the hole.



I disagree ... the front of the teeing area should be required to be a straight line (just like in ball golf) and that line can be extended indefinately. Its just like in ball golf when a player will tee the ball up just inside the teeing area with their setup well outside the teeing area allowing for a better angle for their shot.

krazyeye
Jul 29 2008, 10:51 AM
I still think that Nikko and Barry's left feet come off the ground just priot to release.

krupicka
Jul 29 2008, 11:12 AM
I think changing the rules to require only one supporting point would make it more confusing, especially when the "front" of the teeing area is not necessarily facing the hole.



I disagree ... the front of the teeing area should be required to be a straight line (just like in ball golf) and that line can be extended indefinately. Its just like in ball golf when a player will tee the ball up just inside the teeing area with their setup well outside the teeing area allowing for a better angle for their shot.



Straight verses curved lines have nothing to do with it. Holes like this do.

http://krupicka.org/discgolf/curvedhole.png

bazkitcase5
Jul 29 2008, 11:12 AM
I'm in agreement with krazyeye - you can see them kick up dust as their back foot is coming up just prior to the release, which means that foot is no longer a "supporting point"

therefore, their only supporting point is the plant foot, which is on the tee pad

poisonelf
Jul 29 2008, 03:43 PM
Who cares...its already happened. This is a drive comparison not who did something wrong.

JerryChesterson
Jul 29 2008, 04:08 PM
Who cares...its already happened. This is a drive comparison not who did something wrong.



Right we are comparing drives ... ones that are legal and ones that are not.


Has anyone ever done a super slow motion video of one person but from multiple angles ...
Overhead
Behind
Side Angle

my_hero
Jul 29 2008, 04:20 PM
Who cares...its already happened. This is a drive comparison not who did something wrong.



TTrue! This drive comparison shows one thing PERFECTLY; nearly identical arm speed between all 4 men. I know all of them well enough to say that they all throw relatively as far as one another. What this video shows is it doesn't matter how slow(George), or fast(Nikko) one's run up is; it all comes down to arm speed.

bravo
Jul 29 2008, 04:28 PM
the timing of the arm movement is near mirror imaged.
what im ammazzed buy is the torque that is being created by the differnt men as they unwind. their twists are definately not at the same rate of speed even though their arms appear to be at the same speed,

dionarlyn
Aug 01 2008, 04:49 PM
I've watched the video several times and I'm under the impression that everyone threw legit drives. Nikko and Barry do have their left foot outside of the teeing area but it is not in contact with the ground by the point of release. I'm actually kind of surprised that people would even notice or fall under the impression that their drives were faulty. Sweet video!

bazkitcase5
Aug 01 2008, 05:02 PM
its the message board haha - where people seem to like to over-analyze everything

bazkitcase5
Aug 01 2008, 05:09 PM
each of these players can easily reach the pin in the video, so wouldn't their arm speed be pretty close anyway, considering none of them are throwing max power? thus, slowing their arm speed down from 100% to get the appropriate speed/power necessary for this shot?

how close would their arm speed be if they were all throwing 100% power?

JerryChesterson
Aug 04 2008, 12:03 PM
each of these players can easily reach the pin in the video, so wouldn't their arm speed be pretty close anyway, considering none of them are throwing max power? thus, slowing their arm speed down from 100% to get the appropriate speed/power necessary for this shot?

how close would their arm speed be if they were all throwing 100% power?



Not always the case. I often times choose a disc or line that allows me to throw at 100% because I am more accurate with a 100% power shot versus one where I throw 75%. It's similar to ball golf where you try have the same swing as much as possible. Thus, choosing a club that allows for a full swing versus one that requires a 75% swing. Of course that's just me and I'm no pro :D

bazkitcase5
Aug 04 2008, 01:15 PM
yea, thats true - I like to disc down also, for the reason you mentioned, but most pros will tell you that almost never throw full 100% power

stack
Aug 04 2008, 03:43 PM
LESS FILLING!!!

what?!... oh... this isnt the thread for the "less filling... tastes great" argument?

sorry... carry on ;)

JerryChesterson
Aug 04 2008, 04:37 PM
yea, thats true - I like to disc down also, for the reason you mentioned, but most pros will tell you that almost never throw full 100% power



True ... I probably don't throw 100% all the time either. By 100% i should have said full throw. Just as in ball golf you rarely swing as hard as you can, but you try to swing with a full swing.

gdstour
Aug 06 2008, 01:22 AM
Who cares...its already happened. This is a drive comparison not who did something wrong.



Right we are comparing drives ... ones that are legal and ones that are not.


Has anyone ever done a super slow motion video of one person but from multiple angles ...
Overhead
Behind
Side Angle



Ask and ye shall receive.!

gdstour
Aug 06 2008, 01:41 AM
I've watched the video several times and I'm under the impression that everyone threw legit drives. Nikko and Barry do have their left foot outside of the teeing area but it is not in contact with the ground by the point of release. I'm actually kind of surprised that people would even notice or fall under the impression that their drives were faulty. Sweet video!



I would have to agree, I don't see any foot faults.


Robert L have you played this hole?

gang4010
Aug 25 2008, 10:52 PM
Looks like two obvious foot faults to me :) Just one of my pet peeves. If there's a teepad, you should have to throw from it. If two of them can do it - the other two have no excuse.

gdstour
Aug 26 2008, 01:32 AM
All 4 throws are within the rules.

Regular guy:
" hey heres a hundred dollar bill for you Mr. Bitchalot pdga # 49679"

Mr bitchalot:
thanks but it seems used

stack
Aug 26 2008, 09:54 AM
All 4 throws are within the rules.

Regular guy:
" hey heres a hundred dollar bill for you Mr. Bitchalot pdga # 49679"

Mr bitchalot:
thanks but it seems used



oh man... you are so going to get in trouble for a personal attack in a few years when someone gets assigned 49679!!!

;)

crotts
Aug 26 2008, 10:58 AM
All 4 throws are within the rules.

Regular guy:
" hey heres a hundred dollar bill for you Mr. Bitchalot pdga # 49679"

Mr bitchalot:
thanks but it seems used



oh man... you are so going to get in trouble for a personal attack in a few years when someone gets assigned 49679!!!

;)



that's okay, he's used to it

: ) :

gang4010
Aug 26 2008, 11:47 AM
All 4 throws are within the rules.



Without better video, I remain unconvinced. Looks pretty obvious that the foot is still touching the ground at the point of release. But - whatever - the rule for this situation is so poorly written - it's unenforceable anyway.