Yesterday at the ADGA Fahrenheit Fling we were faced with an issue we hadn't dealt with before. This was the first time we had to deal with the new rule that all lost tee shots must be re-teed and on one hole in particular, Champ. #8, the tee shot is thrown from the highest point in the park down to one of the lowest with a carry of about 300 ft. over tree tops you are looking out over from the tee. We had spotters on the bottom hooked up to me on the tee with walkie talkies as usual but that still doesn't mean we always find our disc. For this reason we made a decision that since we didn't want anyone reclimbing that mountain in that heat that we would rule that any lost disc would result with the player taking a two stroke penalty and re-teeing from the regular tee box on the hole. The reason for two strokes was because if two players messed up and were in the trees some 50 ft short of the clearing and one was found and one lost, it would benefit the lost disc to take one throw penalty and go to the reg. box since the guy that found his could very easily take two strokes to get out of the trees. The only problem we had was we had no clear rule in the book that allowed us to assess a two stroke penalty that we knew of, so the question is: 1. was the decision within the boundries of the TD to expedite play and 2. was the two strokes proper?

P.S.
We were perfect in our performance, though, and never lost a disc so the ruling was never used.

I believe lost disc drop zones require special exemption from the PDGA.

Lost disc is only a 1 point stroke. That is very clear.

I believe lost disc drop zones require special exemption from the PDGA.



That is correct. All you have to do is contact the Tour Manager... :)

Lost disc is only a 1 point stroke. That is very clear.



This is also correct. :)

Over simplification and literal translation are what led some Baptists to believe that the devil put dinosaur bones on the planet to make us think that the Earth is more than six thousand years old. :cool:
There is also a rule that allows a player to call an unplayable lie and take a penalty to get relief. Our decision is a combination of both rules.
If we need to address this situation specifically in the book to end any questions then so be it, but we were not going to make a slow hole twice as slow by making people climb a very steep incline in that heat only to possibly get into more trouble and slow down things even further. I feel our seeing the need for a decision and making the ruling before play started showed a desire to be responsible and fair. There were two officials and a PDGA officer giving input to make sure we were doing the best thing. Again I'll point out that there were no discs lost so it was not implimented, but we will face the same situation in Nov. at the VPO, which is an A tier event and I want to make sure we're on the up and up.

You could make it a "clear the trees or go to the drop zone with penalty" hole by using the special conditions rule.

It does not specify that the penalty be only one stroke if applied either, so the two stroke rule would still apply and all players caught in the trees would proceed to the regular tee.

This would also speed up play a little since no one would be throwing multiple shots in the woods.

Shouldn't this still be an option...you may not clear the trees but be near the edge giving you a decent through out & avoid the penalty.
Maybe the creek should be the dividing line.
Knowing the hole, it seems like an O.K. rule but perhaps the mandatory goto the drop zone area needs to be roped off. You could clear the trees but then end up in the trees on the R or L of the main fairway.
Don't forget, we are golfing. Every throw counts & sometimes ya just have to throw a few extra shots to get back to the fairway.

A 2-shot penalty is too punitive. The way the rule has been applied for this situation at Worlds and I believe Sugarbush A-tier last year is the usual 1-shot penalty for lost disc and specify a drop zone which could be the shorter tee on the hole or a marked drop zone. Players can also take an unplayable even if disc is found and go to the drop zone with a 1-shot penalty (only available on the tee shot). Remember that the original tee shot is counted so the player is shooting their third shot from the drop zone. This rule exception will likely be considered by the Rules Committee to become part of the rules in the next update.

On the hole they are talking about, a one shot penalty is way too generous. No one in the woods would look for their disc very hard if they proceeded to the regular tee with one stroke penalty.

If you are in the woods off the tee, there is about a 70% chance you will be taking more than one shot to get out to the fairway. There is no fairway between the champion tee to the regular tee, only thick woods. When you stand at the champion tee, you are standing above the trees looking down on the hole.

I run an event at a ski resort course that has a very long downhill hole with considerable elevation change. Players could easily lose discs on this hole even with attentive spotters and provisional throws. Rather than forcing players to hike back up the mountain to re-tee or making up my own rules, I simply request a waiver from the PDGA Tour Manager for a drop zone on this one hole. Players that are unable to locate their tee shots can take their next shot from designated drop zone with a one stroke penalty. Dave Gentry has granted this waiver each year for my tournament since the "NEW" lost disc rule went into effect nearly THREE YEARS AGO!!


Gary -

Would you recommend a waiver for the event and allow the drop zone with a two stroke penalty for the hole?

What PDGA rule would you cite as precedence for allowing a two stroke penalty for a lost disc instead of one?

On the hole they are talking about, a one shot penalty is way too generous. No one in the woods would look for their disc very hard if they proceeded to the regular tee with one stroke penalty.


No different from OB. We don't expect players to throw from underwater and still only assess a 1-throw penalty and sometimes a distance penalty. If rope was placed along the woods line like we did for the 800-ft ski hill shot at 2003 Worlds to define OB, it would result in the same thing. Spotters indicated where the shots went OB in that case. But using the lost disc/ unplayable lie & drop zone option would not require spotters to help. Consider this, why should a player who loses their disc get a 2-shot penalty and go to the drop zone when a player who finds their disc in the woods can call an unplayable and return to the tee with only a one shot penalty?

discette.....

identical in every respect to what we did at sugarbush last year and will do again this year. ski hills need this kind of special relief.

we even have a few holes where second or third shots may need special lost disc relief.

dan doyle

Just because you did it in the past means that it is within the rules to do so.

how much distance does it take to clear the woods? sounds like the hole may be inherently unfair.

Just because you did it in the past means that it is within the rules to do so.



There could definitely be a precedence, but that does not make it in within the rules. Just because a waiver is approved for one event does not mean a waiver is automatically approved for all events.

On the hole they are talking about, a one shot penalty is way too generous. No one in the woods would look for their disc very hard if they proceeded to the regular tee with one stroke penalty.


No different from OB. We don't expect players to throw from underwater and still only assess a 1-throw penalty and sometimes a distance penalty. If rope was placed along the woods line like we did for the 800-ft ski hill shot at 2003 Worlds to define OB, it would result in the same thing. Spotters indicated where the shots went OB in that case. But using the lost disc/ unplayable lie & drop zone option would not require spotters to help. Consider this, why should a player who loses their disc get a 2-shot penalty and go to the drop zone when a player who finds their disc in the woods can call an unplayable and return to the tee with only a one shot penalty?



Hole 15 at Willits KOA Jam plays across a saddle with the hill sloping off 45 deg's on the left and right. A bad shot can fly over a 1000 feet with wind, altitude etc...

While playing hole 15 one the players in our group shanked his drive and we all watched it fly off to the right down the hill possibly 700 feet away into a large bushy area(extreme schule). It was still in-bounds, and we allowed him to call it a lost disc/unplayable due the fact that there was no way off knowing he would actually find the disc once he made it down there. He was also a grand master with walking issues, and was sure it would be unsafe to attempt retrieving the disc as well.

He did a re-tee, shooting for his par and this time landed safely to top of the saddle and ended up with a five. One player in the group tried to argue that disc was not actually lost. But I had the rule book with me and showed hime the rule for an unplayable lie.

Just because you did it in the past means that it is within the rules to do so.



There could definitely be a precedence, but that does not make it in within the rules. Just because a waiver is approved for one event does not mean a waiver is automatically approved for all events.



I was not that clear maybe... I was not referring to you. I was referring to the post directly above mine.

You could make it a "clear the trees or go to the drop zone with penalty" hole by using the special conditions rule.

It does not specify that the penalty be only one stroke if applied either, so the two stroke rule would still apply and all players caught in the trees would proceed to the regular tee.

This would also speed up play a little since no one would be throwing multiple shots in the woods.



Good points on your posts Gary, and Frisbeeguy makes another good one about someone just 5-10 ft from the edge with clear play out. I think any lost disc or any disc declared unplayable by the player should be taken to the drop zone (the reg. tee) with the two strokes. There would be no option to take one stroke and go back up to the champ. tee.
One of the posts suggested that the hole may have too much carry to be fair and he's onto something there because in the beginning some 18 yrs ago the trees were significantly lower and you would need only a shot that would carry 270 on flat ground, but the trees are higher now and I would say you need about 300-310 to clear the trees. This is why we don't have everyone throw the mountain. Only Pros and Adv. make that throw.
Chuck, I thought the rule to re-tee was made official this year, if not it's not important, but I do want to have a good idea of how to handle the decision at the VPO in Nov. Should I bother Carlton with it or anyone else?

I was not that clear maybe... I was not referring to you. I was referring to the post directly above mine.



Yes, I understood that.

Again, just because an event gets a waiver (as Dan did) does not mean it is automatic for any other event (or even for Dan's event again next year).

the hole is very fair. the forced 300-325' carry is over thick trees and underbrush. it is also downhill. too much height and you will hyzer back into the trees, but overall it is not too difficult to get over safely. not all divisions are allowed to play this hole.

the forest ends just before the regular teepad. if you are more than a meter into the forest you will likely not have an outshot. as Skip described, that leaves us with a dropzone at the regular teepad for lost discs, but found discs wold need to fight their way through the forest just to advance to the dropzone at the regular teepad. therefore "losing" your disc deep in the trees is advantageous to finding it there. adding the extra stroke helps solve this. think of it as 1 stroke for losing the disc and 1 for advancing forward.

the other way to go would be simply to say "if you dont clear, advance to the drop zone. you'll be laying two shooting three". that way whether the disc is found or not wont matter.

You need approval from Gentry (althoug Duke is co-chair of CompCom) and a 1-shot penalty is the best I suspect will be approved. There's no justification for 2-shots. You especially wouldn't likely get a 2-shot penalty approved if you also ask for the exception that disallows a player from returning to the tee on an unplayable which is allowed by rule. The retee for lost or unplayable is in the rules but the drop zone option is not. That's the exception that was requested and allowed for Worlds and Sugarbush and possibly other events like Suzette mentioned.

the other way to go would be simply to say "if you dont clear, advance to the drop zone. you'll be laying two shooting three". that way whether the disc is found or not wont matter.


This is the rule for OB on some of the water holes at the IDGC. If you don't wish to throw and risk losing a disc from the long blue tee, you may take two and proceed to the other side of the water and play from the red tee shooting your third shot. This is just like the hole you're talking about as if the woods were a big lake being thrown across.

yes, Chuck. the overall concept is identical.

I thought the rule to re-tee was made official this year...



The Lost Disc Rule was changed in January, 2006.

This information was found on page 24 of the written rule book. Also available in PDF format here: http://www.pdga.com/documents/2007/PDGA2007rulebook.pdf

double post!!

I was not that clear maybe... I was not referring to you. I was referring to the post directly above mine.



Yes, I understood that.

Again, just because an event gets a waiver (as Dan did) does not mean it is automatic for any other event (or even for Dan's event again next year).

If you turn in your money right away and turn in your Td report on time, the PDGA is not going to sliver your almonds over the unauthorized use of a lost disc drop zone.

Whenever you have a drop zone for any reason, just be sure to make it clear whether the use of the drop zone is an option, or whether the other options under the rules have been precluded.

I thought the rule to re-tee was made official this year...



The Lost Disc Rule was changed in January, 2006.

This information was found on page 24 of the written rule book. Also available in PDF format here: http://www.pdga.com/documents/2007/PDGA2007rulebook.pdf



I was remembering that we did have two lost discs at the VPO last year and they climbed the mountain and re-teed which made for a 3-4 group wait up there and added at least a half an hour to the round. Two strokes is generous and one makes the legend of the hole history.
I need a solution that keeps things fair yet doesn't make the tiger of a hole into a pussycat. It seems I'm being given a choice of a. not playing the champ. tee, b. turning it into the pussycat, or c. a 4-5 hour round.

Players do a good enough job as it is messing up their own scores without much assistance from the designers or courses. Perhaps you can find a location for the drop zone that is not as "easy" as the usual tee to play from? Seems like there might be other places than the lower tee that might work where you would be satisfied the 1-shot penalty and playing from there wouldn't dumb down the hole too much?

But another part is trying to not create too much of a delay as well. The special conditions allow for the hole to be played much like an island hole. You have to clear the trees or immediately retee. After the the second attempt move to the drop zone. That puts the players spending more time searching for more discs in the trees.

If the regular tee is used for the drop zone, one shot is too lenient. Two shots is about what you would expect to need to get out of the woods.

The other option is to move the drop zone to the far left (or right) of the regular tee where there is no direct shot to the basket. The far left adds a shot to the hole. The far right may allow for a heroic shot and a long putt.

I understand what you're saying, Chuck, but there really isn't a spot. The main reason we stay in contact with radios is that this park is in the middle of the city and gets lots of use by pedestrians on the sidewalk at the bottom. Whenever a walker rounds the bend through the trees on the right side of the fairway we have to stop all tee shots on top. This sidewalk would prevent us from going to the only place available to accomplish the goal you've suggested. I promise there is no place to do it. As a matter of fact, when we use the regular tee we still have to be aware of walkers and hold up our tee shots from time to time.

Sounds like the hole is better for safari final 9s rather than tournament play despite its legendary status when you consider the resources and issues involved to play it safely and in a timely manner.

On the hole they are talking about, a one shot penalty is way too generous. No one in the woods would look for their disc very hard if they proceeded to the regular tee with one stroke penalty.


No different from OB. We don't expect players to throw from underwater and still only assess a 1-throw penalty and sometimes a distance penalty. If rope was placed along the woods line like we did for the 800-ft ski hill shot at 2003 Worlds to define OB, it would result in the same thing. Spotters indicated where the shots went OB in that case. But using the lost disc/ unplayable lie & drop zone option would not require spotters to help. Consider this, why should a player who loses their disc get a 2-shot penalty and go to the drop zone when a player who finds their disc in the woods can call an unplayable and return to the tee with only a one shot penalty?



but if you saw this hole you would probably understand!!!!!
skip i think at vpo this should be a mandatory re-tee! if you think about it, even if they have to re-tee, they could still get to the fairway! i believe the way it was run this weekend was probably ok! (since no one was given the 2 stroke penalty)
but if most of these people saw the hole they would understand that A- THERES NO FAIRWAY!!! not a little bit not a small fairway.....NO FAIRWAY! YOU ARE THROWING INTO A JUNGLE OF MESQUITE AND OTHER BUSHY TYPE TREES AND ALOT OF TALL OAKS!!!!!!! and B- IF YOU GO INTO THE CRAP....YOU ARE AT BEST TAKING 7 UNLESS YOU GO RIGHT THEN YOU MIGHT GET AN 8 IF YOURE LUCKY!!!!!!!!! and i also think you are being deceiving when you say a 300ft shot!!! its more like 350-375 to clear the trees!

so i do agree with the way it was done saturday....but also theres no way to rope it off unless you make every shot off of the tee into the trees OB!!! and i agree with the previous poster who said maybe just ob in front of the creek!!! because if you hit that 5ft X 5ft square right behind the tee-pad you could actually save a 4!!!!

Sounds like the hole is better for safari final 9s rather than tournament play despite its legendary status when you consider the resources and issues involved to play it safely and in a timely manner.



no the safari hole 8 actually goes to hole 10 which is 250ft further than 8 straight behind 8's bucket!!!!!!

I'm pretty sure I've played the hole at VPO maybe 10-12 years ago but maybe not from the same elevated tee position if that's moved longer since then. The design guideline for maximum carry over water for gold level is around 265 feet. Of course elevation can be taken into account. It's too bad when a hole essentially almost gives a free pass to those with the power and brutally penalizes those who either don't have it or slip up on release.

the champ tees are only for advanced and open!!!! and im sorry but if you cant carry 350 downhill then you might need to move down a division

It's not what you can throw under ideal conditions but design guidelines are based on what is reasonable under average conditions, so that when you have abnormal conditions like 30mph headwinds, a hole is still playable, especially when crossing water, or the trees in this case, is required without a bailout area. Sounds like you have to throw more than 300 feet level to clear the trees with the benefit of elevation helping make the fianl 50-75 feet at the end?

The Traverse City solution is to require that after you throw your drives you go to your drives, turn around, and spot for the group behind you. Then they do the same thing. They do the same thing. They do the same thing. The holes does not get backed up. Nobody loses a disc.

There's nothing in the rules that allows a TD to do this. They pay their money and turn in their TD reports on time, generally.

I think I had the worst shot on it. Ended up by 17, I could see 17s basket about 30ft thru the woods. I almost got out of the woods just 5ft short, but still didn't have a shot. My third came up short of the sidewalk. Missed my putt for five and got a 6. Found out on the next tee that someone took a 7, I couldn't believe it after what I had just gone thru.

I wish that I could of reteed and not shanked my drive so I could of got a 5 or 6 the risky way.

the champ tees are only for advanced and open!!!! and im sorry but if you cant carry 350 downhill then you might need to move down a division


Phillip, I have a bad hand and can't throw more than 280' on average, but this hole plays downhill and usually downwind and I used to clear it all the time. Now, though, the trees are a good 20' taller than they were in '92 and it takes a bit of a stronger throw to make it. The last few times I've thrown it I've come up about 10'-40' short and was usually able to play out in one throw ( I'm the king of scrambling since I don't have the distance to be competitive :o). It was well within guidelines in the beginning, Chuck, and it is considered our signature hole at the VPO. I would hate to lose it. As far as a final 9 goes, I got some feed back from some respected traveling pros after we did a final 9 two years ago and they said that one thing they like about the VPO is playing 48 holes on Sat. and only 24 on Sun. then taking their time to relax and finish up the weekend unhurried and not as tired. The safari 9 was one of the best things I've ever watched but the players were tired and didn't enjoy it.

Help me save Champ 8 without a 5 hour round and a 4 group wait on top. "" NO RE-TEE ''''

I was thinking the trees must have grown from when I played it which I'm pretty sure I cleared with something like a Cobra in 1998-9. I've had a few holes over the years that have had to be sacrificed or changed due to growth of trees that couldn't be removed (oaks, etc.). Long run, maybe it would be worthwhile to find a way to reroute holes to still have a cliff shot if at all possible. Maybe it can't be done. But since that type of throw is important to the character of the course, the effort could be worth it.

You need approval from Gentry (althoug Duke is co-chair of CompCom) and a 1-shot penalty is the best I suspect will be approved. There's no justification for 2-shots. You especially wouldn't likely get a 2-shot penalty approved if you also ask for the exception that disallows a player from returning to the tee on an unplayable which is allowed by rule. The retee for lost or unplayable is in the rules but the drop zone option is not. That's the exception that was requested and allowed for Worlds and Sugarbush and possibly other events like Suzette mentioned.



This was my first time to play the Champ 8 and I'm by no means a long arm but I did manage to clear the trees short of the lower tee. However, my disc sailed off to the right in the trees across the sidewalk a good 25' deep. Just to get to my lie I had to almost crawl through the brush and undergrowth. Heck, I couldn't even stand upright when I took my stance it was so thick.

I would have loved to of had the unplayable lie go to the drop zone option with a one shot penalty. That would have been a no brainier. And if that option existed I can guarantee that anyone in the kind of lie I was would be taking that without any second thoughts or hesitation.

As it was trying to play my way back to the fairway was the most logical option. The challenge with that was that there was only a 2' area of safe ground to land a disc, throwing through all the crap I just crawled or duck walked through so I would avoid a OB stroke. Which I managed to do and actually felt like that was one of the best 25' shots I ever hit.

However, from there my work was just beginning because then I had to throw a strong left to right shot just to land in front of the lower tee. Which I again managed to do. So I'm laying 3 about 30' in front and to the left of the lower tee. And I felt like that was 2 great recovery shots to just get there. I ended up with a 6 which really wasn't that bad considering where I started my 2nd stroke from.

So I said all that to say that a one stroke penalty is really too lenient as others have indicated. It's more of a stroke and distance penalty that needs to be assessed without the requirement to re-tee. And I have seen the re-tee option result in a 8 group backup on the hole the first year I went and watched the VPO.

has it been addressed/thought of that since there are spotters at the bottom w/ walkie talkies communicating w/ the tee pad that if they aren't sure of a discs location they could radio up that the disc might be lost and the person should throw a provisional before coming down.

wouldn't this work in this situation? and as far as a backup... it was said that nobody even lost one this year... how often do people lose a disc during a tourney w/ spotters on that hole? i'd think that the 1 time it might happen the person should hoof it back up the hill... the guy @ the top of the hill would have him drive 1st but then let the group waiting throw with him and walk down together and let the 1st group putt out. That should save a little bit of time and help w/ some of the backup. (not sure if that is technically allowed in tourney play though... if it is it seems like a viable option and the closest thing to still playing the hole the way it was designed and by the rules as you could get)

has it been addressed/thought of that since there are spotters at the bottom w/ walkie talkies communicating w/ the tee pad that if they aren't sure of a discs location they could radio up that the disc might be lost and the person should throw a provisional before coming down.

wouldn't this work in this situation? and as far as a backup... it was said that nobody even lost one this year... how often do people lose a disc during a tourney w/ spotters on that hole? i'd think that the 1 time it might happen the person should hoof it back up the hill... the guy @ the top of the hill would have him drive 1st but then let the group waiting throw with him and walk down together and let the 1st group putt out. That should save a little bit of time and help w/ some of the backup. (not sure if that is technically allowed in tourney play though... if it is it seems like a viable option and the closest thing to still playing the hole the way it was designed and by the rules as you could get)



Stack, you are onto the only solution I can come up with. Problem is that we do good to get three spotters to work the bottom and it is very common to have two or three shots go short, or left, or right into trees so the practice is to send one person as soon as there is a shot that will be deep and have as many as possible watch all the tee shots to get a basic idea of where to go. For this reason we don't know which ones will be found (but it's usually all) so to have all doubtful shots take a provisional will mean on average two extra discs per group will be thrown and found in addition to all the spotting already being done.
Rules state that a disc is declared lost once all the players in the group have searched, asked for a three minute clock to start and it is seconded, and all players have looked for the disc for that three minutes. So I can't have the player wait on top for the spotters to declare it lost and I don't see provisionals on every doubtful shot as working either. If the question is not solvable I see us just hoping we don't lose any and if so making them re-tee and slow things down. I don't see this as an intelligent responsible approach, but such a thing is hard to find it seems and lots of hot heads that know what's best will be glad to let you know you're not up to par (pardon the pun).

Skip, your rule works out perfectly for this hole. Don't second guess yourself.

Those that have played the course long enough know that even with spotters, discs have been lost. I even remember Ron Russell hitting the top of the first tree (40' in front of the champ tee) and seeing him throw back up to the champ pad so that he then could try again. It would have been too punishing for him to try to advance from where he was without the elevation.

From what i gathered there was only five birdie 3's on the hole all day, and 3 of the 5 came from my card! Now, if you saw where my drive landed you would automatically think there's no way he's 3ing it from there. Well, i read my superhero cliff notes and threw the most dynamic, heroic, creative roller i had. It was a thing of beauty watching it FINALLY stand up from it's original accute angle. I still had to hit a 35er to get the three. Booooooom! Ah, and for the record, the longest drive of the day(middle of the fairway too) set by Nolan Grider didn't yield a birdie 3! Tough hole!

no prob skip... just posting other ideas

I'm familiar with the hole -- and I agree that you need a way to two-stroke penalize lost discs and that you need to keep the hole.

Is there a way to make a drop zone in a place that forces a player to make a really, really short throw to an opening?

Perhaps place the drop zone 30' to the side of the short teebox with a net just in front of and above the "drop zone", so the only choice players have is to waste a shot tossing a putter out onto the fairway by the short tee?

There may be trees that would serve the same purpose as a net, but I don't remember for sure on that hole. As it stands, it seems like you could pretty easily set up a man-made obstacle that would force a player to waste a throw, essentially creating the two-stroke penalty, while still following the letter of the law for the PDGA rulebook, giving only a one-stroke penalty for the lost disc, but in effect, guaranteeing that the lost-disc will add two strokes to the players score.

Admittedly, this feels more gimicky than just adding two-strokes to the score, but since it very seldom will come into play -- probably only a few players per tourney will be affected by this -- it seems superior to neutering the hole or allowing players to take an easy-one stroke lost-disc penalty and throwing from the short teepad. It also avoids the hassle of having to obtain a PDGA special permission for the hole.

Sometimes a hole is just not a well designed hole, or becomes that way, similar to top of the world, in its case, with the safety hazard of hitting cars in the parking lot. Common problem with big elevated holes everywhere.

I would go for the 'drop in the pocket' that Haynes is suggesting and eventually get a tree or two out of there if possible to make the drop spot more punitive but fair. If it's true that players usually take two to get out of there, it's likely there's a distance from the woods line where many are playing their second shot that would be suitable for a marked drop zone and a tough throw to pop out of there.

It is a beautifully designed hole that only 950+ golfers should be playing. It is so beautiful that all 900+ golfers complain loudly if they don't get a chance to play it.

I complain if I don't get a chance to throw it. I used to have the distance needed to clear the trees easily, but I'm not sure about it now. I can say that 8 times out of 10 I would take the 2 strokes and the regular tee over playing from in the woods.

Sometimes a hole is just not a well designed hole, or becomes that way, similar to top of the world, in its case, with the safety hazard of hitting cars in the parking lot. Common problem with big elevated holes everywhere.



I would go for the 'drop in the pocket' that Haynes is suggesting and eventually get a tree or two out of there if possible to make the drop spot more punitive but fair. If it's true that players usually take two to get out of there, it's likely there's a distance from the woods line where many are playing their second shot that would be suitable for a marked drop zone and a tough throw to pop out of there.



Are you saying that top of the world is not a good hole?

No way! That hole gives you every option. Hyzer, straight at it, lay up, roller, side arm over the trees. You park your car in the front row at your own risk.

And champing 8 is a great hole. You can 3 it with two great shots, get an easy 4 with a good drive, or 6 it with a shank. The only problem with that hole is the wait.

Sometimes a hole is just not a well designed hole, or becomes that way, similar to top of the world, in its case, with the safety hazard of hitting cars in the parking lot. Common problem with big elevated holes everywhere.



I would go for the 'drop in the pocket' that Haynes is suggesting and eventually get a tree or two out of there if possible to make the drop spot more punitive but fair. If it's true that players usually take two to get out of there, it's likely there's a distance from the woods line where many are playing their second shot that would be suitable for a marked drop zone and a tough throw to pop out of there.



Are you saying that top of the world is not a good hole?

No way! That hole gives you every option. Hyzer, straight at it, lay up, roller, side arm over the trees. You park your car in the front row at your own risk.

And champing 8 is a great hole. You can 3 it with two great shots, get an easy 4 with a good drive, or 6 it with a shank. The only problem with that hole is the wait.



Uh-huh. From my own personal experience, one of the best holes in DG (Hole #5 USDGC) comes with a long wait. I have played the hole in 8 competitive rounds, and everytime there was at least 2 cards (and sometimes up to 4 cards) waiting in front of my group. Both hole #5 at the USDGC and The Mountain #8 at The Vet are great holes with long waits.

I agree with MyHero...don't overanalyze - your 2 stroke solution for a lost disc or an unplayable lie in the woods is fair.
The other option is to blow off the sanctioning, play it your way and add the extra cash to the payout. Hmmmmm
There will always be a long wait at this hole unless you are one of the first groups through.

As I remember the hole, why don't you pull the tee box way to the left of the lower tee box so that the only option is to throw back to the lower tee box or only slightly a head of it. This would still cost most lost discs the equivalent of two strokes except for either a few talented or lucky players.

Sorry, I'm sure many will find this opinion irritating, but I just had to get it off my chest. Are y'all talking about the hole at the Vet, where you can wait 45 minutes, just to throw a basic shot, and hope it lands somewhere decent.

It drives me nuts, waiting 45 minutes for what amounts to a very pedestrian hole, imo. Hold a distance competition from there, after the round, but don't confuse a great view with a great hole.

Are you saying that top of the world is not a good hole?

No way! That hole gives you every option. Hyzer, straight at it, lay up, roller, side arm over the trees. You park your car in the front row at your own risk.



There's no doubt that "Top of the World" - hole#27 at Delaveaga is one of the most famous disc golf holes in the world, and extremely enjoyable to play because of all the options off the tee you mentioned.

However, from a safety standpoint it's possibly the most dangerous in the world - an errant shot can land on six or more other holes on the course. With discs dive-bombing in from above, often at sharp angles, it's some wonder that no one has never been seriously injured here. If I lived locally, on crowded days when the course was filled with novice players I'd probably wear a football helmet when I'm in the general vicinity of the hole.

Yea, you're pretty irritating James. :DSpeaking of great views, there's a great view of the FAIRWAY that you've never hit from the mountain top. :D

Sorry, I know that hole is dear to y'all.

btw, I don't think the hole is unfair, it just doesn't require a cheek squeezing shot that great holes often do. I would bet that two seconds after release, a crowd of experts couldn't tell you whether the shot will be good or not.

Sorry for the drift. Skip's idea is perfect for that hole, and instituting it should be within the powers of a TD.

I'd probably wear a football helmet when I'm in the general vicinity of the hole.


I'd be careful about that. You might confirm what some people believe about you.

I'd probably wear a football helmet when I'm in the general vicinity of the hole.


I'd be careful about that. You might confirm what some people believe about you.



Wow! That one made me choke a little bit.

Sorry, I know that hole is dear to y'all.

btw, I don't think the hole is unfair, it just doesn't require a cheek squeezing shot that great holes often do. I would bet that two seconds after release, a crowd of experts couldn't tell you whether the shot will be good or not.

Sorry for the drift. Skip's idea is perfect for that hole, and instituting it should be within the powers of a TD.




Faceplant antics aside, I agree with James. Champ #8 ain't a good hole. There is only one option off the tee. It's fun, but not good.

I'd probably wear a football helmet when I'm in the general vicinity of the hole.


I'd be careful about that. You might confirm what some people believe about you.



Which is what? That I'm hard-headed? Wow, what a burn. Zing! Ooo, you really got me with that one. http://www.bearclaws.org/forum/images/smilies/icon_rolleyes.gif

Yeah, somethin' like that.
http://www.foroswebgratis.com/imagenes_foros/0/5/8/1/1/532347CartmanRetarded-Resized.jpg

james,

Here, I'd say we have a semantics discussion over what "good" means in terms of a disc golf hole. In Champ 8 the most challenging hole in the world? Does it take a perfect shot to do well? Is there incredibly high risk/reward? Will it provide a perfect bell curve of stroke separation based on perfect execution? Or a million other questions that would be considered as part of "great" hole design? The answer to most of these questions is "no."

However, if it is a hole that is scenic, memorable, and exhillerating to throw, then maybe its a "good" hole for reasons that aren't directly related to its degree of challenge as a disc golf hole.

No -- its not the most challenging hole in the world. It's a hole that most good players will take a four on. There's a chance for a birdie three, and a similar chance for a double-bogey six, but for the most part, 90% of 950+ rated players (for whom the hole was designed) will probably take a 4. So no, it's not a great hole from a disc golf score separation standpoint.

That said, I've never been up there on a casual round and been able to contain myself by throwing only one shot. It's one of those breathtaking, beautiful holes that just begs you to unload all your drivers and forget the consequences because it is just that enticing. And for spectators, a mega-bomb off that hill and across those trees is just poetry in motion. For all those intangibles, I'd say it's a GREAT hole, regardless of its drawbacks from a technical standpoint.

Sounds like it fails even more as a tournament hole due to the piling up time delays versus scoring separation. There are many beautiful fantasy holes that could have been created on courses but aren't because they are non-functional for a variety of design reasons. Players have discovered many of these and play them in recreational safari rounds when the course isn't busy.

Say what you will, but there are players that attend this event just so they can play that hole with spotters. It's proximity to the jogging path make it risky to play without spotters watching out for foot traffic.

If it's that worth it, then perhaps the players in the divisions playing it would be willing to cough up $3-5 a head for the spotters to divvy up for their time? Base the decision to play it on economics to prove it's that valuable of a draw to the event to make the effort worth it.

Thanks Haynes, Gary, and John for your caring. Chuck, any rock on the side of the road can not care. Like I said it is our "Signature" hole and most people love to get up there and let it loose and in turn it is the one hole that gathers the most gallery. I've spotted from the top at least 15 times in the last 17 years (we've used it a few times for events other than the VPO) and seen the best players throw the hole and it has been an absolute treat to do it. I've never seen a disc get so small so fast as when Stokely threw it there one year. This year our own Nolan Grider, having thrown the shot probably more than anyone in competition, went a route I'd not seen done before and if he hadn't caught the last tree in the middle of the fairway he would have had a chance at a 130' "2" on the hole. It's fun to watch and fun to play (except for James I guess :confused:) and I'm convinced that without it the championship course would be ho hum average.I will take a poll at the VPO this year to see what percentage of the players would hate to see it go.

Skip, you're in a no win situation. Simply ask Gentry next week to allow a 3-shot penalty for going immediately to the lower tee or 2-shots after throwing and losing it and see what he says.

The relevance of your remark escapes me, Chuck. I am not losing anything. I just want to find the most acceptable approach to playing the hole efficiently and quickly within the guidelines provided. Alacrity has an acceptable idea that would give me close to what I want. A drop zone on that walking path would work. I want to make it for lost discs and unplayable lies. Any player in the trees would be given a choice of going to the drop zone with a stroke or playing it as it lies if they feel like it would be to their advantage. Taking a stroke and going to that path would only allow a play to the general area of the regular tee box. An expertly played forehand roller could possibly regain the lost stroke if they can follow it with another very good throw. I'm thinking this may be the way to go eh John?

I believe that's one of the options I suggested initially was to find a tougher drop zone position but you didn't think back left would necessarily work? If you think it would then great. I think it's also reasonable to ask Dave about your original preference for someone to take a 2-throw penalty to advance to the regular pad whether found or not.

Skip, it is fun to watch, and it is fun to play, it's just not fun to wait 45 minutes to play.

...at least you get to watch while you wait, before you play. :p

... lots of wind dummies...

I believe that's one of the options I suggested initially was to find a tougher drop zone position but you didn't think back left would necessarily work? If you think it would then great. I think it's also reasonable to ask Dave about your original preference for someone to take a 2-throw penalty to advance to the regular pad whether found or not.


Yes, you're right that you made that suggestion, it's just that I was trying to invision a spot that would allow for less of an obvious twist to the hole to accomplish the goal. I will try to get Dave's opinion and if it's not in agreement with our ruling on two strokes then I'll probably go to the odd drop zone. Thnx, Skip #6922 :)

Skip, it is fun to watch, and it is fun to play, it's just not fun to wait 45 minutes to play.


James I'm totally with you on that. When the rule changed to re-teeing it slowed play even more so I'm trying to find a solution to help it along.
You've been a part of our event from the beginning, James, and I look forward to seeing you again at this years tourny.

I was working the Club Championships this weekend and re-reading the rule book to freshen up for the VPO and stumbled on definitions/provisional, and it has occurred to me that there is another option I might want to use. I�ve helped with the spotting crew on this hole for years (same hole that I spoke of at the start of this thread) and I can tell if a throw is going toward a problem area. I�m in contact with the guys on the bottom via walkie-talkie (thanks Vinnie) and if they don�t tell me they saw it come down out of the trees and have a good idea where it is then I�m going to ask for the player to throw a provisional.
My crew will spot all throws and search while the group walks down. Once the group gets there and looks for the allotted 3 minutes, then the disc is declared lost and the provisional will be used.
I have a lot of faith in my guys to find every disc, but each year we have 3-4 that don�t get found in time, but we keep looking after the group plays on and very seldom will we not find them all. Should the provisional be lost too then the player will have to climb the hill again. I only say that because I know some of you will think that to be an issue and I�m sure the spotters will do a very good job as usual so I don�t anticipate that being a problem.
As TD I should have the right to request any player to throw a provisional at any point I see the need during the tournament, right? This isn�t something that only the player can request, right?

IMO a provisional is solely decided by a player. The TD should not have the right to force a player to throw a potentially unnecessary shot.

But in the situation that Skip is describing, the player will be given the benefit of knowing whether the first throw was seen by the spotters or not. I still think it should be up to the player to decide, but I think most would opt for taking the provisional instead of climbing back up the hill. Just knowing which discs the spotters have seen will reduce the potential number of provisionals

I expected to get that responce. I understand that a player wants to be in control of his game. I don't see anywhere in the book that says one way or the other. I believe that I will get a positive responce for the most part from the players when we're up there on the hill. I won't tell them they have to, but I'll strongly reccomend it.

Skip, it is fun to watch, and it is fun to play, it's just not fun to wait 45 minutes to play.



Laughed my arse off that one year the guys had a pizza delivered up there whilst waiting to tee off....

funny!

Skip, it is fun to watch, and it is fun to play, it's just not fun to wait 45 minutes to play.



Laughed my arse off that one year the guys had a pizza delivered up there whilst waiting to tee off....

funny!



He's kidding around with rumors gone wild...it never happened. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Skip, it is fun to watch, and it is fun to play, it's just not fun to wait 45 minutes to play.



Laughed my arse off that one year the guys had a pizza delivered up there whilst waiting to tee off....

funny!



...it never happened. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif



My arse, it never happened ! :D\
I think the reason there was such a hold up that year was the rec, grandmasters , and ladies playing champion 8 .

IMO, that should be a MPO , FPO, and MA1 tee only. Masters too..

last year (or the year before?) we had almost a 3 hour wait on Champion 8. There was no Rec or Intermediate division, do there were 800-900 rated golfers playing Advanced, just so they could play. lots of players threw into the woods because they simply couldn't reach the fairway. Even with all of that backup, I still want to play champ. 8 this year :).

I've played the top of the world hole at DeLaveaga. I've played similar cliff holes in Lubbock, Flagstaff, etc. Champ. 8 at Veterans in Arlington is a memorable shot that shouldn't be taken away. it's a good hole, by any definition. Skip, if there's anything you can do to speed it up, I say go for it. Just please don't take it away :)

Skip, it is fun to watch, and it is fun to play, it's just not fun to wait 45 minutes to play.



Laughed my arse off that one year the guys had a pizza delivered up there whilst waiting to tee off....

funny!



...it never happened. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif



My arse, it never happened ! :D\
I think the reason there was such a hold up that year was the rec, grandmasters , and ladies playing champion 8 .

IMO, that should be a MPO , FPO, and MA1 tee only. Masters too..


Find me the people, hotshot, it never happened and there has never been a 3 hour wait either. I've had 3 groups on the box and one on the fairway when it was at it's worst. It takes about 15-20 minutes to play the hole and with four groups that works out to an hour and twenty minutes at the most. I don't know where you kids get your info, but I resent imbelishment to try to have your fun ridiculing others.

P. S.
You tell Des that she's not good enough to throw the hole, but you are. You'll find yourself laid out on the ground with Jay there ready and waiting for you to stand back up.
The gall of some pompous people.

P. S.
You tell Des that she's not good enough to throw the hole, but you are. You'll find yourself laid out on the ground with Jay there ready and waiting for you to stand back up.
The gall of some pompous people.



Quite generic of you Skip... If memory serves the advanced ladies were the big hold up ... And you naturally ASSume I was referencing the FPO players ...

Confident-vs-Pompous the eternal battle . Issue of prespective if you ask this guy....

The practice has always been all pros and advanced men. You didn't qualify your remark as Adv. Wmn. You just said ladies. I've helped on top of the hill practically every year only missing the ones I played in. The last time I played the GMs didn't throw off the top.
The main problem every year is all those big arms in the Adv. div. that have pro distance and amatuer control ( nothing personal ). These guys and the bottom half of the Open div tend to throw way off and those are the ones we have to spend the most time looking for.
Without a doubt I'm the one who's been there and I'm not sure I remember seeing you up there for any period of time if any at all.

Without a doubt I'm the one who's been there and I'm not sure I remember seeing you up there for any period of time if any at all.



You are absolutely right , the past three years I have been volunteering on the course , shooting video for Disc Golf TV , hosting Gallery Raffle's ( with merch I dontated from my personal stash ) , spotting , caddying , getting media to the event , etc... For a club I was not even a member to..... Perhaps one year I might actually play this event , instead of wasting my time helping out with the event :o :D:eek: :D :cool:

What are you looking for a pat on the back? How about a cookie? Skip we need to find a replacement for someone that feels like they are wasting their time and has a bad attitude to go with it. :eek:

Without a doubt I'm the one who's been there and I'm not sure I remember seeing you up there for any period of time if any at all.



You are absolutely right , the past three years I have been volunteering on the course , shooting video for Disc Golf TV , hosting Gallery Raffle's ( with merch I dontated from my personal stash ) , spotting , caddying , getting media to the event , etc... For a club I was not even a member to..... Perhaps one year I might actually play this event , instead of wasting my time helping out with the event :o :D:eek: :D :cool:


Really? You'd think that as TD I might be aware of some of this. I remember you getting the Star Tele. out there about 4 yrs. ago. That was about their tenth time to give us a little look see.

good lord children, kiss and make up already

CEASE FIRE!!!

http://www.israelshamir.net/English/Cease_fire2.jpg

What are you looking for a pat on the back? How about a cookie? Skip we need to find a replacement for someone that feels like they are wasting their time and has a bad attitude to go with it. :eek:



Wasting time is an understatement !!!

What are you looking for a pat on the back? How about a cookie? Skip we need to find a replacement for someone that feels like they are wasting their time and has a bad attitude to go with it. :eek:



Wasting time is an understatement !!!



I have been a part of some 3 - 4 card backups there but I did not think that it was too aweful horrible. Just gives you time to calm down and get right.
As for the rest of the harsh words - that is something that should be covered in private face to face. If not someone will lose face and that is when bad things happen.

kids, it's time to kiss and make up :)

Skip - you know I've got nothin but love for ya... but I can verify that I personally waited more than an hour and twenty minutes to play Champion 8. I didn't put a stopwatch to it, but I do know that after we had been sitting there for what felt like a very long time, we saw the top Open card (who started on hole 1) finish hole 18. We finished our round at least 2.5 hours after they did, and we weren't the last group to play hole 8.

Also, be it known that Lee has put more than his fair share of volunteer time into the VPO and countless other tournaments. It should never be said that any of it was a waste of time... trust me Lee (And Skip, too of course) - the effort did not go unnoticed. Last year was the first year I ever put any quantifiable time into helping with the VPO, and it wasn't much in comparison to everyone else. I've been a player in that tournament many times, and long before I ever knew Lee or Skip personally, I knew who they were and that I owed them each a big "thank you".

let's not quibble amongst ourselves, fellas. It's VPO time! My favorite tournament of the year :)

You're right. I don't want nor will I accept the challenge to carry this any further.( :p LBJ reference ) I'm sorry but taking on the responsibilities of the VPO has always been alot of pressure and I got a little touchy. Lee has a way of getting people's ire up with some callous statements. I tried to smooth it over the first time he got alot of my cohorts here PO'd because I don't like the back and forth attacks either. I started this post with a genuine concern for fixing the problem not to open the door to ridicule. I'll do my best to ignore the coming retorts and continue my quest to hold a good event. Thanks

Skip, Do it your way.
Anomalies exist in cases like this where "course rules" are perfectly legitimate. Adding an additional stroke penalty is not "contrary" to the PDGA rules - it is "supplemental", based on a unique condition. Don't bother asking permission, just do it - make it part of the course rules in your program, and be very clear about it at the players meeting. DONE!

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc184/gotcherj/ScottStokelyonHole8atVeteransPark15.jpg (http://s214.photobucket.com/albums/cc184/gotcherj/?action=view&current=ScottStokelyonHole8atVeteransPark15.jpg)
Scott Stokely launches his drive off Hole 8's championship tee at Veterans Park, Arlington, Tx;
1998 Veterans Park Open ~ Millenium Skins Challenge

This is definitely one of my favorite holes in disc golf. Back in the mid-90's one of our then local club members, Randy Wimm, surveyed the entire course for distance and elevation. I'm not sure about the distance now that the hole has been shortened somewhat, but prior to 1997 the length from the championship tee to the b-pin was 848'. What I always found interesting in the survey results was the elevation change.....there was a 42' drop in elevation to the lowest point on the hole (the creek inside the trees below the tee), then a 41' rise in elevation to the b-pin. It sure doesn't look like it from the tee, but the laser survey equipment proved there was only a 1' difference in elevation from tee to pin! :)

Skip, as Craig posted above, do it your way. All courses have general ground rules, but there are a few courses which provide "hole specific" rules.

What a great pic, Jerry. I love that spot and will do all I can to include it and help move it along.

skip, people know that champ. 8 takes some time. yet people still show up in droves to play it. I think you should not worry so much ;)