This is a fun one. I remember it being discussed but cannot find it.

Player A throws into the shule, 20 feet to the right of the basket. He is about 28 feet from the basket and has to extend a supporting point under a willow and places his other knee to his left. He has to make an anhyzer putt, he falls forward and misses his putt. Or was it that he missed his putt and fell forward??? I didn't think any of it and did not check to make sure his fall did not extend past the mark. It could have. I simply was not looking closely enough. I was watching though. Any way he calls a falling putt on himself and then gets mad at us for not seconding it. One of the players asks me if we should have and I said that if we believed it was a falling putt, we should enforce the rule. Rules are to be enforced. The problem is guys and gals, foot faults are the least enforced rule we have.

So he then proceeded to pi$$ and moan. Sorry, but that is the best description about us not enforcing the rules. I apologized to him later, saying he was probably right, I should have seconded it. In between that time, I had to issue a courtesy warning for distraction during a drive.

Any comments?

I believe the rule should be changed so that players can't initiate foot fault calls on themeself but could second them.

So can you call a foot fault on your self because say he can and calls it and gets to reshoot the shot and makes it the second time without faulting. Then basically he gets to shoot the first shot as a measurement throw so that he can judge how far to throw the second one.

I think you should be able to 2nd but absoluetly not initiate the self fault call.

I am outraged at the language used in this thread. Can one put oneself on the MB disciplinary list? If so, who seconds?

:cool:

seriously though... I am with chuck on this. Any time a rules violation results in a re-throw without penalty, there is the chance that it will be used to gain unfair advantage. Players should not be able to initiate that call on themselves.

I agree, no player should be able to call a falling putt or a foot fault on themselves. I am not even sure if they should be able to 2nd it. What if there buddy is playing on the same card and he makes the call and the offending player 2nd's it.

I'd call Shenanigans! Which of course means they have to slap each other in the face and go back to playing golf.

I would never 2nd anyone trying to call a falling putt or foot fault on themselves.

I agree with Chuck as well and was kind of upset with the temper tantrum the player threw. One of the players I was with even said he didn't second it because it gave the player an unfair advantage, however the way the rule reads, we should call an infraction, or second it if we see it. Let me clarify this, I was watching the player, I feel he may have committed a foot fault, but it was too close to call, so I opted not too.

I would, especially if they did it more than once. Remember, every time after the warning is a stroke. I'd be watching them like a hawk.

First time is just a warning anyway. Was he planning on doing it again???

F. A stance violation must be clearly called within three seconds after the infraction to be valid. The call may be made by any member of the group or an official. When the call is made by a member of the group, it must subsequently be confirmed by another member of the group. A player shall receive a warning for the first violation of a stance rule in the round. Subsequent violations of a stance rule in the same round shall incur a one-throw penalty.

Agreed, it's no penalty the first time, but he does get to make another putt after his "practice putt".

So after he doinks his first putt, he calls falling putt on himself, someone 2nd's it and cans the second putt.

I might recommend increasing the time for a call to 5 seconds since the 3-second call is awful fast for a person to see it, recognize it was a foot fault, then call it... unless it's on yourself...

Agreed, it's no penalty the first time, but he does get to make another putt after his "practice putt".

So after he doinks his first putt, he calls falling putt on himself, someone 2nd's it and cans the second putt.



Who would second it two times (besides someone in colusion with them)??? :confused: It would be obvious that he was trying to circumvent the rules.

Unless, you are taking about the first time. Yeah, he can throw another one. He can then also add the penalty onto his card for a practice throw.

On the con side 5 seconds would give the caller more time to decide if they wished to make the call or not after observing the result of the shot. Three seconds seems sufficient time to observe the throw and make a call and less time for "reflection" is a good thing IMO.

Yes, I was talking about when it happens the first time.

No penalty and he gets a free second shot. Thats why I say no one should be able to call this rule on themselves.

No doubt the 3 seconds given to make the call makes it very difficult to ever call this rule infraction on anyone.

I am guessing it's because if you had 10 seconds the disc may have landed by then and the person may or may not want to make the call depending..... Hence 3 seconds-make the call before the disc hits the ground.

Just a guess at why only 3 seconds.

I call myself on falling putts sometimes. But I don't do it to try and get a second chance. Sometimes I miss and sometimes I don't. It usually happens when paying on very steep terrain. I realize I fell, and say something like:

That was a falling putt... oops!

I do it to give myself a warning as sort of a reminder to not do it again.

If someone penalizes me for doing it a second time based on my own call without the benifit of a re-putt, I would not argue.

As for adding a couple of seconds, I agree it would not make enough of a difference. I have been called on a foot fault once and it was done immediately. So if someone is playing by the rules, which includes staying back, and observing the players in your group in order of play, the call can be made and seconded as stated by the rule.

Yes, I was talking about when it happens the first time.

No penalty and he gets a free second shot. Thats why I say no one should be able to call this rule on themselves.



Explain to me, using all the rules that are in the 2008 rulebook that you could do that without a penalty stroke.

Without looking into my rule book.

I am pretty sure that only two things can get you a stroke with no warning.
1. Touching another players disc.
2. Breaking tree branches or bushes (purposely)

All other rules require a warning first.

Not playing the stipulated course. Carrying an illegal disc.

I'm not looking either, on the assumption that that is the rules of this message board game.

Showing up late to the tee...

Well there are a few more than that, but you may touch another player's disc to identify it is not yours.


Without looking into my rule book.

I am pretty sure that only two things can get you a stroke with no warning.
1. Touching another players disc.
2. Breaking tree branches or bushes (purposely)

All other rules require a warning first.

practice throw

I'm not sure, but I don't think that was the question.

CORRECT! All of those things have nothing to do with the conversation.

Let's go back to the point.


"Yes, I was talking about when it happens the first time.

No penalty and he gets a free second shot. Thats why I say no one should be able to call this rule on themselves."



Show me in the 2008 rulebook where you can achieve this.

IE, call a foot-fault on yourself, have someone second it, it is the first stance violtion this round, and you can throw two shots without a penalty.

There is nothing to worry about because you can't do that!

Only a fool or a cheater would second 2 foot faults called by the thrower.

You know the picture that starts with three round columns at the top and ends with two square columns at the bottom? I think that's what we have here.

You certainly get two throws throws from the same location without penalty on the first instance of a properly called and seconded foot fault per 803.04 F & G.

I'll second self-called foot faults. Towards the end of the round I'll even call them on your bad throw to give you a chance to take your one free throw, if you want to. Most players are too ignorant of the rules to understand what I'm doing for them.

I think what he is saying is the player putts, immediatly calls a foot fault after falling forward and he receives a warning and a "second" shot if seconded. Technically it is a first shot since the players intial throw is now invalid. But I think the point is being missed, do you second the foot fault or not and if not, how do you justify not seconding it? Granted this could be used for cheating, but that is a whole 'nuther thang.

On a different (same) subject, most of us know if a putt is astray the instant it leaves the hand. What is to stop a player from releasing, realize he is off and falling forward for that extra throw? As I think about it now, I think I should have seconded him and then had another player and myself watch every foot placement he made after that. The second call is a stroke.




Show me in the 2008 rulebook where you can achieve this.

IE, call a foot-fault on yourself, have someone second it, it is the first stance violtion this round, and you can throw two shots without a penalty.

There is nothing to worry about because you can't do that!

Only a fool or a cheater would second 2 foot faults called by the thrower.

You know the picture that starts with three round columns at the top and ends with two square columns at the bottom? I think that's what we have here.

You certainly get two throws throws from the same location without penalty on the first instance of a properly called and seconded foot fault per 803.04 F & G.



Did you read the bottom of F?


F. A stance violation must be clearly
called within three seconds after the
infraction to be valid. The call may
be made by any member of the group
or an offi cial. When the call is made
by a member of the group, it must
subsequently be confi rmed by another
member of the group. A player shall
receive a warning for the first violation
of a stance rule in the round.

In the senerio I outlined I said that they did NOT have a previous stance violation.

Like I said earlier, I call myself from time to time, but with no intention of getting second shot out of the deal. Now if I had made the putt, and called myself and a person seconds it, makes me re-putt, I have no argument. I opened the door so I will go thru it. I could miss and end up with a stroke.

But if I missed and someone seconds it, I would argue to not take a re-putt on my own call.

Especially because I only do to make sure I don't make a habit of off-balance putts, and if no one calls me on the falling putt, I feel compelled to own up to it even if the 3 seconds has transpired.....

In my playing experience, I have never seen or heard of anyone calling a foot fault on a missed putt. They are only going to call it (or second it) on a made putt that also included a foot fault. Why would you ever want to give somone a second chance at a putt they missed?

In my playing experience, I have never seen or heard of anyone calling a foot fault on a missed putt. They are only going to call it (or second it) on a made putt that also included a foot fault. Why would you ever want to give somone a second chance at a putt they missed?



Come to think of it, me too.....
:eek:

If I call myself for a foot fault after a miss and nobody in my group, who all saw it, will 2nd it, can I call them on a courtesy violation for not enforcing 801.01.C? :p

I'll second self-called foot faults. Towards the end of the round I'll even call them on your bad throw to give you a chance to take your one free throw, if you want to. Most players are too ignorant of the rules to understand what I'm doing for them.



I tried to do this last weekend in a non-sanctioned tourney. Another person playing pro and I were on a card with an Am the first round. He was playing in a leg-brace from surgery and having trouble with his planting. On a long hole with uneven footing, he stepped on his disc on his second shot, slipped to the ground, shanked the disc into the creek into a place that would have no look at the basket. I immediately called a foot fault. The pro with me seconded it -- it's a pretty obvious foot fault when the guy admits he slipped because he stepped on his own disc. At that point, he was already 6-7 OB strokes into the round. Unfortunately for him, he went ahead and picked up his disc before we finished explaining the rule. So he ended up playing the disc from the creek. But we tried to help him out.

Related question: is it unethical to choose to NOT call a person on a foot fault when they have a bad shot? I ask, because I can think of one instance in a tournament where a competitor in a close round stepped past the end of the teebox on his drive, took a bad-bounce off a tree and shanked into the woods. I then took more than three seconds, trying to think through whether I should make a call. These were natural tees marked by two rocks, so stepping off the end didn't adversely affect planting his foot on his throw -- it was just a bad shot -- and I didn't immediately want to give him another attempt at it since he was ahead. If he had stepped off the end of a teepad and it affected his stance, or even if he had slipped on mud, I think I would have called it -- it sucks to have a bad shot because of a bad teebox. But since it was simply poor execution on his part -- not a bad teebox -- I consciously chose not to make the call. Was that wrong? Should I have called the infraction? (It really is hard to process all these thoughts in less than 3 seconds during competitive play).

Look at it this way... If you had been playing strictly by the rules watching far all players on every shot to hit their mark, who is to say this player in question would have not already been called? In that case your senario would have been, do I call him and get him a stroke penalty? Or do I keep quiet. So, in my point of view, calling foot faults can make you a hero, then a zero.... You only get one free-bee

Unfortunately for him, he went ahead and picked up his disc before we finished explaining the rule. So he ended up playing the disc from the creek. But we tried to help him out.



He should play from an approximate lie. By playing from the thrown disc after a validly called foot fault, he misplayed the hole.

You know the picture that starts with three round columns at the top and ends with two square columns at the bottom? I think that's what we have here.

You certainly get two throws from the same lie without penalty on the first instance of a properly called and seconded foot fault per 803.04 F & G.



Did you read the bottom of F?


F. A stance violation must be clearly
called within three seconds after the
infraction to be valid. The call may
be made by any member of the group
or an offi cial. When the call is made
by a member of the group, it must
subsequently be confi rmed by another
member of the group. A player shall
receive a warning for the first violation
of a stance rule in the round.

In the senerio I outlined I said that they did NOT have a previous stance violation.



So did I :confused:

Like I said earlier, I call myself from time to time, but with no intention of getting second shot out of the deal. Now if I had made the putt, and called myself and a person seconds it, makes me re-putt, I have no argument. I opened the door so I will go thru it. I could miss and end up with a stroke.

But if I missed and someone seconds it, I would argue to not take a re-putt on my own call.

Especially because I only do to make sure I don't make a habit of off-balance putts, and if no one calls me on the falling putt, I feel compelled to own up to it even if the 3 seconds has transpired.....



If you call yourself on a foot fault and it is seconded, you have no choice but to re-putt. You do not have the option of playing from the location of the missed putt. 803.04.G

Unfortunately for him, he went ahead and picked up his disc before we finished explaining the rule. So he ended up playing the disc from the creek. But we tried to help him out.



He should play from an approximate lie. By playing from the thrown disc after a validly called foot fault, he misplayed the hole.



I agree that he misplayed the hole at that point, but in this case, since it was non-sanctioned and we were just trying to help him out within the rules, we didn't worry about it and just played on. Had it been a sanctioned tourney, I would have made him rethrow and save himself the couple of strokes that the really bad OB cost him. Since it was non-sanctioned and he only hurt himself by moving on, I didn't figure it was worth worrying about.

Gary,

You are a scholar and a gentleman. I stand corrected. I know what you mean now. ;)

You know the picture that starts with three round columns at the top and ends with two square columns at the bottom? I think that's what we have here.

You certainly get two throws from the same lie without penalty on the first instance of a properly called and seconded foot fault per 803.04 F & G.



Did you read the bottom of F?


F. A stance violation must be clearly
called within three seconds after the
infraction to be valid. The call may
be made by any member of the group
or an offi cial. When the call is made
by a member of the group, it must
subsequently be confi rmed by another
member of the group. A player shall
receive a warning for the first violation
of a stance rule in the round.

In the senerio I outlined I said that they did NOT have a previous stance violation.



So did I :confused:



Yeah, Mark. You're really not making sense.

The rule is right there saying that in the first instance of a stance violation during a round, it's just a warning.

Are you not understanding that no penalty stroke is assessed when a warning is given?

That, after all, is the whole crux of this thread.

To answer Haynes about whether or not it's wrong to choose to not call a foot fault based on whether or not you want to give a player another chance whose currently leading you, the obvious answer is "yes, it's wrong".

Calling infractions should not, imho, have anything to do with a player's current standing. The infraction was made; it should be called. There's nothing in the rules that allows for rules to be selectively enforced, and there is far too much selective enforcing of rules happening.

I also agree that the rule should be changed to not allow a player to call a foot fault on themself because of the potential for abuse mentioned above by several posters.

While I would think [hope] that most of us fall into the same category as Senior in that we have high levels of integrity, it cannot be counted on when writing rules.

[warning: thread drift]This fact was made painfully obvious to me when I was debating with the rules committee to try to get free relief from poison oak, ivy and sumac added to the rules. A lot of the arguments used to deny the addition centered around the inability to write the rule in a way that did not leave the door open for abuse. While I still firmly believe that rule as written creates an unfair discrepancy between players who are allergic and those who are not, I eventually gave up, as I saw that my campaign was futile.

- JPB

I am all to blame. I did not read G. G is of course where it states about the throws. I was at work and quickly read the rule over & did not read the whole thing. I will take a 2 stroke penalty for that... :eek:

I choose not to enforce that rule and will waive the two strokes.
/msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Thank you sir. :)

And, after reading all of the posts here I understand there is a grey area in the rule. People can use this rule to get a free shot.

What I am pointing out is that I myself call myself on falling putts from time to time, but not for the hope of a re-putt. If it so happens by rule of the group so be it. But the reason behind it is a self policing attitude along the lines of a Homer Simpson DOH! You realize you lost your balance and made a putt... Sometimes you miss. Either way it feels the same. Sort of a knee jerk reation and you spout out: That was a nice falling putt!

I know that once you are called and seconded, you have to re-puttt. But in the few cases where I called myself on a falling putt, no one usually seconds my own call unless it was a putt I made, and clearly a distinct unfair advantage for the outcome of the round/event.

So the crux of my point is this:

People will usually not call the infraction when you miss even when they could. Why, I do not know. But I think it is because they would rather just keep playing and not get too picky. But for me, once I call myself on a falling putt seconded or not, it constiutues a warning that from then on, and in my mind players could use to penalize me if it were to happen again....

So maybe what we need is rule that states this:

If a player calls hiself/herself on a falling putt seconded or not it constitutes a warning, if the group decides it is warranted.

This is a fun one. I remember it being discussed but cannot find it.

Player A throws into the shule, 20 feet to the right of the basket. He is about 28 feet from the basket and has to extend a supporting point under a willow and places his other knee to his left. He has to make an anhyzer putt, he falls forward and misses his putt. Or was it that he missed his putt and fell forward??? I didn't think any of it and did not check to make sure his fall did not extend past the mark. It could have. I simply was not looking closely enough. I was watching though. Any way he calls a falling putt on himself and then gets mad at us for not seconding it. One of the players asks me if we should have and I said that if we believed it was a falling putt, we should enforce the rule. Rules are to be enforced. The problem is guys and gals, foot faults are the least enforced rule we have.

So he then proceeded to pi$$ and moan. Sorry, but that is the best description about us not enforcing the rules. I apologized to him later, saying he was probably right, I should have seconded it. In between that time, I had to issue a courtesy warning for distraction during a drive.

Any comments?



So to enforce my point, back to the original post....


The majority of players who call themself on a falling put are not this person IMO. This person is looking for an excuse to shoot again after they messed up. Falling putt calls IMO are designed to keep a player from getting closer to the basket and in effect make the putt easier than it should have been...

They idea that you could call yourself get seconded and then possibly walk away with a birdie instead playing your disc where it lies is absurd.

On the other hand, if you are willing to police yourself, with no intended advantage possible, by calling your own falling putt, and therefore warning yourself and the group, I think the warning should stand. But, with no re-putt. Your call; No re-putt! But still a warning.. Isn't that the whole point of calling and seconding, to prove it happened. And if it happened and you made it, then to give the other players the one chance to bring the game back to an equal playing level. So calling it on yourself is like being judge, jury and executioner! You can't expect to pardon yourself after that!

I belive golf is a game of honor. If you the player throwing your disc, clearly see and call your own infraction, and announce a falling putt, you should be assessed a warning. But out of fairness of play you can't expect to get the group to second it and allow you a free shot. On the other side, if you putt and don't see an infraction, and
a) another player sees it, and
b) another sees it and seconds the call,

it makes perfect sense that you should:

1) reputt and receive your warning
2) get a stroke penalty for each falling putt there after.

Regardless of whether or not you made or missed the falling one, you are now in the posisition to get a penalty if it happens again. The whole point of the rule IMO

Would you second the "self-called-falling-putt" if the player made the shot?

If a player calls a falling putt on themselves (which they really did) and it is not seconded by you, because you want to stop them from cheating, aren't you cheating by not enforcing the rules? ;) :p

I would have to say that the rules are very grey in this instance, and by stating that "any" member can call the infraction, that would not include the player committing the said "infraction". There is a definate distiction between a player, who is throwing/player, and a member/bystander who is observing.

So based on that interpretation, I belive, a person who calls them self on a falling putt is no different than someone who during the round mis-stated thier score and later corrected it before the round was over. It has happened in my group before. Kind of like this:

Two holes back, I said I got a 4, but I really got a 5. I miss counted it...

So in my opinion, a person could be on the next hole, and say, you know, back on the last hole, that putt I made was a falling putt....

In my mind, if you did that you would be admitting that you deserved a warning. In those situations, where a player is calling strokes, penalties, falling putts etc on themself, it is as good as them doing it and they should be accountable for their actions. But you are not going back to the last hole to watch them putt again....

So to me it's how you interpret the rules and I think common sense should prevail in these situations that you realistically cannot be playing, and watching yourself play at the same time, otherwise there would a one member group allowed in our events.

You have to be within 10 meters for it to be a falling putt, so its really a you make it or you don't shot other than extreme wind situations or extremely hilly situations.

I would make the following suggestion for a change to the falling putt rule:

If you are called on a falling putt, and the putt is not made you play from where your disc ends up.

If your putt is made, you have to rethrow.

1st one's a warning, subsequent is a penalty.

That way there's no temptation for watching to see if the guy misses before calling the falling putt, and there's no benefit to the "overly honest" guy who calls his first one.

This follows the way calls in ultimate happen... if I travel on a throw, and the pass is complete, it comes back to me. If I travel, and I still don't complete the pass, its still a turnover.

There's really no reason to change the current rule and make it more complicated. Call it right away and keep the rule consistent and simple.

There's really no reason to change the current rule and make it more complicated. Call it right away and keep the rule consistent and simple.



But why should a player benefit from breaking a rule? They missed the putt. Why do they get to do it again? And it doesn't really make it that much more complicated...

Or simplify it... how about no warning? Why is there a warning?

And if they made the putt ?

I could go for a no warning change, not sure why that was put in there. The first time freeby is what opens the rule for abuse. I bet the rule would get called more often in the real world too. At least it would after a few money spots changed because of called foot faults. Players may pay more attention if the first one wasn't free.

There are putts and there are putt attempts. You call falling putt if it goes in. You don't call a falling throw. I know the rule is worded so that any attempt within 10 meters is a putt, but it's really just an attempt if it misses.

My take, since I started this discussion, rules are to be enforced, if it is a bad rule, it should be changed. This rule seems to work well, except when it is self called there is a question of was it cheating or not. The fact that the player got irate about it not being called, seemed to tell me quite a few things about the player that I will not conjecture on here. I will also state that the only time he has ever called me for a foot stance violation was when I made a putt from an ackward position and fell forward. I did not fall in front of my lie and considered explaining to him that, as the Q&A states, I could have a grand mal seizure as long as I did not fall in front of my lie, but I decided it didn't really matter. As I think back on it now, I should have explained that to him. I am still not sure he fell past his lie on the falling putt he called on himself.

I would suggest the rule is to stop a player from gaining an advantage while falling forward. It is much easier to say all falling putts must be redone than to say only where an advantage is gained (putt was made). The rule is not intended to allow a player a second chance to make a putt. A player should not call themself for a falling putt if they missed the putt. Just my opinion and maybe the best suggestion would be to change the rule to say the call may be made by any member of the group other than the thrower. However, in this case I believe the player would have still complained, because we did not call him on it.

That is right in line with my reasoning. I don't think we can stop all the knee jerk reactions to your own falling putt. I know that from time to time I do it out of habbit. Not a great habbit, but sometimes I lose my balance and I call myself to remind myself not to do it. So, the point is that in itself should be a warning. No second needed if a player does that IMO. YOU called it, so you did it. If then following that instance a falling putt is observed, you follow the rule for subsequent violations. So to me the easiest way to fix the problem is simply reword the rule like this:


Rule re-worded for this discussion....

F. A stance violation must be clearly
called within three seconds after the
infraction to be valid. The call may
be made by the player or a member of the
group or an official. When the call is made by
the player and not seconded
it shall constitue a warning with no re-throw allowed.
However, if a stance violation is called by a member of the group other than the player, it must
subsequently be confirmed by another
member of the group. A player shall
receive a warning for the first violation
of a stance rule in the round.
Subsequent violations of a stance rule in the
same round shall incur a one-throw penalty.

G. Any throw that involves a validly called
and seconded stance violation by a member
of the group (not the player/thrower), may not
be used by the thrower. Re-throws must
be taken from the original lie, prior to
subsequent play by others in the group.



The idea here is to allow self called warnings, but remove any reward such calls and place the responsibillity of calling the initial stance violation (which are accompanied by a no penalty re-throw) on the other members of the group and not the player.

To me the launguage of the rules already imply this my distiguishing between player and member

803.04 Stance, Subsequent to
Teeing Off
A. When the disc is released, a player must:
(1) Have at least one supporting point that
is in contact with the playing surface on
the line of play and within 30 centimeters
directly behind the marker disc (except as
specifi ed in 803.04 E); and,
(2) have no supporting point contact with the
marker disc or any object closer to the hole
than the rear edge of the marker disc; and,
(3) have all of his or her supporting points
in-bounds.
B. Stepping past the marker disc is
permitted after the disc is released, except
when putting within 10 meters.
C. Any throw from within 10 meters or
less, as measured from the rear of the
marker disc to the base of the hole, is
considered a putt. A follow-through after
a putt that causes the thrower to make
any supporting point contact closer to
the hole than the rear edge of the marker
disc constitutes a falling putt and is
considered a stance violation . The player
must demonstrate full control of balance
before advancing toward the hole.
D. A player must choose the stance that
will result in the least movement of any
part of any obstacle that is a permanent
or integral part of the course.
E. If a large solid obstacle prevents a
player from taking a legal stance within
30 centimeters directly behind the
marker disc, the player shall take his
or her stance immediately behind that
obstacle on the line of play. The player
must comply with all the provisions of
803.04 A other than being within 30
centimeters directly behind the marker disc.
F. A stance violation must be clearly
called within three seconds after the
infraction to be valid. The call may
be made by any member of the group
or an offi cial. When the call is made
by a member of the group, it must
subsequently be confirmed by another
member of the group. A player shall
receive a warning for the fi rst violation
of a stance rule in the round.
Subsequent violations of a stance rule in the
same round shall incur a one-throw penalty.
G. Any throw that involves a validly called
and seconded stance violation may not
be used by the thrower. Re-throws must
be taken from the original lie, prior to
subsequent play by others in the group.
H. The player may not retrieve the
originally thrown disc prior to the
re-throw, except in the case of a putt
from within 10 meters. Where a disc is
retrieved in violation of this rule, a one
throw penalty shall be imposed without
a warning.


[/QUOTE]

This to me shows that there is a definate distinction between player and the members of the group. IMO they would have used the word players to descibe the members of the group if indeed they were intended to be all included.

I see what you are saying, but "any member" is a pretty inclusive remark. I did contact the rules committee and Carlton responded. His take is the player is part of the group and therefore qualifies as any member.