I'd like to propose to the PDGA board adding the division name 'Superior' for those 'semi-pros' (many people feel like 'Expert' was a bit strong) in order to shift divisional names to make better sense and drop the term 'Novice' altogether which is often confused/interchangeable with Recreational.

Apologies if this has been posted before, and this is posted in the simplest manner (not intentionally ignoring ladies, etc) :

<u>Proposal for 2009 (or later) ratings division names</u>

Pro/Open (Gold) &gt;970
Superior (Blue) 935+
Advanced (White) 900-934
Intermediate (Red) 850-899
Recreational (Green) &lt;850

Note that none of the breaks actually change, just a naming tweak &amp; shift. I think the feelings of divisional 'demotion' which happened to most players in 2008 could immediately be rectified with this very minor change and everything makes sense once again.

Thanks,
Jebb Long #31342
http://www.discgolfbirmingham.com

So if someone wins a tourney playing as 'champion' they are the &lt;insert tourney name here&gt; Champion Champion and 2nd place is the Champion Runner-Up? George Carlin would have a field day with this one :)

Sounds like you are saying the issue is more at the lower end where 2007 Intermediates might not like that they are now considered Recreation... is this correct? Is there a reason why you wouldn't rename one of the lower divisions?

Maybe the divisions could be ;)
Open = Star
Advanced = Champion
Intermediate = Pro-line
Recreational = DX
Novice = ???

Better yet... lets rename Advanced w/ 'Z' instead... that way someone could be named 'Z Champion' (said with a french accent)

I'd like to propose to the PDGA board adding the division name 'Champion' for those 'semi-pros' (many people feel like 'Expert' was a bit strong) in order to adjust divisional names to make better sense and drop the term 'Novice' which is often confused/interchangeable with Recreational.

Apologies if this has been posted before, and this is posted in the simplest manner (not intentionally ignoring ladies, etc) :

<u>Proposal for 2009 ratings division names</u>

Pro/Open (Gold) &gt;970
Champion (Blue) 935+
Advanced (White) 900-934
Intermediate (Red) 850-899
Recreational (Green) &lt;850

Note that none of the breaks actually change, just a naming tweak. I think the feelings of divisional 'demotion' which happened to most players in 2008 could immediately be rectified with this very minor change.

Thanks,
Jebb Long #31342
http://www.discgolfbirmingham.com



Actually, I would prefer the coor names ONLY.

I'd like to propose to the PDGA board adding the division name 'Champion' for those 'semi-pros' (many people feel like 'Expert' was a bit strong) in order to adjust divisional names to make better sense and drop the term 'Novice' which is often confused/interchangeable with Recreational.

Apologies if this has been posted before, and this is posted in the simplest manner (not intentionally ignoring ladies, etc) :

<u>Proposal for 2009 ratings division names</u>

Pro/Open (Gold) &gt;970
Champion (Blue) 935+
Advanced (White) 900-934
Intermediate (Red) 850-899
Recreational (Green) &lt;850

Note that none of the breaks actually change, just a naming tweak. I think the feelings of divisional 'demotion' which happened to most players in 2008 could immediately be rectified with this very minor change.

Thanks,
Jebb Long #31342
http://www.discgolfbirmingham.com



Actually, I would prefer the coor names ONLY.



I'd be fine with color names only. "A rose by any other name..."

nanook

Just use numbers, Open, Am1, Am2, Am3, Am4

much less degrading than rec/novice

Color names are better than numbers because they don't necessarily imply any heirarchy where one is better than another except within our sport's definitions. Am1, Am2, etc is still less desireable than Blue, White, especially for women an older pros who cross over into a color division when they have none to one in their regular division. The colors also match the accepted sequence for assigning tee colors for new and upgraded courses. Unfortunately, I believe the Competition Committee has decided not to address this naming issue for the 2009 season.

Stack, certainly the name 'Champion' is debatable and since you make perfect sense I edited it to 'Superior'. I would almost say substitute 'Expert' back in, although I heard a lot of strong opinions on that one meaning 'Pro'. 'Superior' sounds best for the 935+ division.

The main reasoning behind this proposal is to have THE most descriptive division titles if we must keep using names (colors-only would be REALLY confusing), remove the ambiguity between Rec/Novice (most newbies around here think they mean the same exact thing) and also to drop the 'Novice' designation as that title tends to rub some people the wrong way.

Perhaps this could be perfected in 2010?

Perhaps changed but perfected will be in the eye of the beholder... ;)

Color names are better than numbers because they don't necessarily imply any heirarchy where one is better than another except within our sport's definitions.



god forbid we actually display a hierarchy of talent to the viewing public. oh wait. there is no viewing public. colors are just fine i suppose. so after we get done explaining what the metal baskets are for and why we carry different discs, we can explain that we color code our divisional structure. it'd be a half rate attempt to not hurt a few peoples feelings. just pick something and stick to it. "pro" disc golfer is just as laughable so i guess it makes no difference.

you have to admit Chuck, it isnt yet perfect. simply ask around (but I assume you already know this)

You're preaching to the choir on this but enough in the positions of authority swayed the decison not to change names for this year. But I understand the vote was maybe 4-3, so many are conflicted on this issue.

Here's a possible sequence of names roughly in descending order in honor of our "EX" step. Pick your fave four:

Exalted
Extraordinary
Expert
Excellent
Exemplar
Explorer
Existent
Exiguous

why would it need to be ex-something?

Just a lot of "excellent" words that seem to make sense as possible division names that start that way. No particular reason. Maybe an "ample" list to choose from could be made starting with "AM".

'Superior' does actually make most targeted sense from the plethora of thesaurus-seeking in the past 24 hours.

I initially pulled 'Champion' out of nowhere really. Seems a bad choice in comparison to Superior.

We could have the Superior, Michigan, Huron, Erie and Ontario divisions based on elevation. You don't land in the Ontario division unless your rating really
F
A
L
L
S
:eek:

I don't think I'm 'Huron' you man! :D

Just trying to Gitchya-gummi.

OK,

Professional
Elite Bagger
Middling Bagger
Newbie Bagger
Future Bagger

All in fun, folks, all in fun. :)

:D

Reading downward, the proposal I posted spells:

P.S. AIR

heh

Well since we dont want to degrade and hurt peoples feelings why dont we just add divisions called "All That Matters Is That You Tried" and "You're Still A Winner In Mommy's Eyes" or "Winnings Not As Important Just So Long As I'm Having Fun."

The call is to drop the Novice name, so your post contributes little to the discussion and is merely a troll JD.

If you were actually paying attention, feelings are secondary to what actually makes sense when you call a division by the assigned name (IF you want names, colors and ratings to co-exist). The 2008 division names are sorely lacking in descriptive value.

Seems like the final fix to make it all sync up.

So if someone wins a tourney playing as 'champion' they are the &lt;insert tourney name here&gt; Champion Champion and 2nd place is the Champion Runner-Up? George Carlin would have a field day with this one :)



R.I.P. George Carlin... the world lost a funny man today!

Well since we dont want to degrade and hurt peoples feelings why dont we just add divisions called "All That Matters Is That You Tried" and "You're Still A Winner In Mommy's Eyes" or "Winnings Not As Important Just So Long As I'm Having Fun."


So you're saying that you're fine with the fact that regardless of what division you play... the fact is that when people talk about you going by your rating, you JD are a recreational disc golfer, and nothing more.

I believe that colors are a much better way to go. In terms of the system we have in place for defining teepads it makes sense. I fully agree with the color system of Open/Gold, Blue, White, Red, etc. Some people might only be 890s level golfers but they compete and therefore aren't just recreational golfers. Some people are sub 850, but it doesn't make them automatically new to the sport, they aren't novices. I really do think we need to simply go by color.

I believe that colors are a much better way to go. In terms of the system we have in place for defining teepads it makes sense. I fully agree with the color system of Open/Gold, Blue, White, Red, etc. Some people might only be 890s level golfers but they compete and therefore aren't just recreational golfers. Some people are sub 850, but it doesn't make them automatically new to the sport, they aren't novices. I really do think we need to simply go by color.



I agree with the color logic. The current naming scheme appears to have been designed around a mistaken logic that people continue to improve over the course of time they play -- ie, that as they gain more experience (move from rec to novice to intermediate, etc...) their scores improve as well. This isn't always the case.

People's ability to shoot at a given rating is subject to a lot of factors independent of their degree of experience. We have a lot of players now who have been playing this sport for decades -- people who may once have been rated 50, 100 or more points higher than they are now. However, they've gotten older, have less time to play, and aren't in the same physical shape they used to be. The labels of "novice, rec, intermediate, etc..." don't accurately portray their level of experience. Someday Climo will by 80 and shooting only 960 golf at that point, but he certainly won't be merely an "advanced" player. (except maybe Advanced in Age).

The colors may not immediately make sense to people outside our sport, but as the sport grows, and course design becomes more consistent, I think the colors will aid people in understanding the sports, rather than confuse them. I know the newer John Houck course designs have tees and signage that uses the gold/blue/white/red/green color system and gives different tees and different pars for a couple of different skill levels.

I am thinking specifically of the course in Rockwall TX, which has two teeboxes on most holes -- a white tee and a red tee. On the couple of holes that have only one teebox, the white and red pars are listed separately. I think color coding the pdga rating categorizations to match the tee colors we use in our course design will make it much easier for people to understand course design and to understand par.

Of course, for simplicity's sake, I've always wanted SSA total pars to be posted at the beginning of every course. A sign that says "The average total score for a Gold player is 62, a Blue player 68, a White player 75, a Red player 81, a Green player 90" -- or whatever it works out to be. That is a lot easier than trying to put par signs on every hole for all the different colors. But it would help people understand skill level.

I also think that a good color system would help eliminate some of the bagger mentality. We have a VA player -- Brandon Bailey -- whom I've often heard accused of being a bagger since I've moved up here. I looked up his scores, and yes, he typically wins about two advanced events a year. But those are generally on shorter, more technical courses. I've played with him and he is a very nice guy. He is involved locally, hosts/TDs several tournaments a year, gives back to the disc golf community, etc... and is is the best example I know of of a true Blue disc golfer. In the 10 years he's had ratings, he's fluctuated from a low of 920 to a high of 960 (currently a 937). Having played with him I don't think he would ever be truly competitive in pro, and I don't think he should have to be. I think he should be able to play Blue forever, and if he plays a dozen tournaments a year and wins one or two, more power to him.

Point being: not everyone is cut out to move up to the top divisions. People should be encouraged to play where they have the most fun and are the most balanced in their skill level. And the current division titles don't reflect the ability and long-time dedication to the sport of many players who will always be "Ams" (or who will get old and rejoin the ranks of "Ams").

I think colors makes sense simply because they are abstract. People of any amount of experience can play at any skill level, and once you start assigning labels (novice, rec, etc...) to divisions, you pigeonhole experience instead of skill and it fails to describe the wealth of players that fall within that range.

I also think that colors would encourage less divisions. Because let's be honest: a 915 golfer is a 915 golfer whether that is a new player, a grandmaster, a woman, a junior, etc... having a tournament with a dozen different protected divisions when we have a good rating system that gives a fairly objective measure of ability is just silly in a lot of respects. but that's a whole different discussion. But again, colors would help make it easier for different currently protected divisions to play with one another, which I think would be more fun for everyone involved. I always feel bad for women/juniors/grandmasters when they are playing in 2 or 3 person divisions, where oftentimes the skill disparity is huge and the challenge just isn't there. Two women rated 50 points apart are going to get stuck playings Women's Advanced together, despite the huge points disparity -- both would likely be happier and have a more fun/competitive tournament if they jumped over and played in the White/Red divisions, respectively.

Anyway, enough of a long rant. But yes: Committee should change the system.

I still think that colors-only would be entirely too ambiguous and would compound problems and confusion. With only a minor tweak to the existing division names, all ways of looking at divisions, whether it be color, explanatory name or by number will all gel.

My problem with colors is that they have no relation to any heirarchy. It seems so random that you could never really remember which is which. An order helps recall the divisions. "Hey man, what day are you playing?" "Well, I'm not so sure. Gold, Red and Blue are on Saturday and Green, Pink and Brown are on Sunday." I do not really care about the names. However, without an order, 1,2,3,4 or Experrt.... or whatever, how do we really differentiate gold from magenta or whatever. Hey, Dave, what division are you playing in?" " @#$% if I know, the bottom one whatever that's called." If we have our feelings hurt by expert, novice etc, how about an order that is easy to remember but doesn't sound so perjorative such as Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars, Jupiter or Every Good Boy Does Fine or P D G A or Groucho Chico Harpo Zeppo or Moe Larry Curly Shemp. Remember swim classes? Shark Dolphin etc. If you really want colors I guess you could have the spectrum. I know I will screw this up. ..I think Purple, Red, blah blah....blue.

As a Novice player, I really have no issue being so labled. If anybody has a problem I think it has to be the former Intermediates who are now labled as Recreational. Oh, how regressive. "My rating went up from 880 to 895 and I went from Intermediate to Recreational." That's kind of humbling. Its hard to have an Am division above Advanced. A new name is needed for 900-935 sandwiched between Advanced and Intermediate. How about Pro, Advanced , Lake Woebegon (where everybody is above average), Intermediate, Recrecational?

The hierarchy is actually there with Gold as in gold medals. Plus all of the longest courses being installed are typically using Gold in the name or their longest tees. Then Blue, White, Red is the most common sequence for ball golf tees. You may not know them but every sport has its special lingo such as hyzer that you learn as you get into it.

What color division am I now in? My rating went up. So I'm no longer green just a nice shade of burnt orange... or was it red from embarrassment for my second round on Sunday.

i think the thing that makes the most sense is

open
am1
am2
am3
am4

why cant we see the numbers 1-4 as positional instead of hierarchical? am1 is higher rated and the level of play is higher, that doesnt mean that am1 is the best division in the world for ams.

the problem is when we add words to describe these. perhaps colors if you NEED a word to go with it, but why even that.

why cant the division be called am1? why do we need any other description.

should we call it am1/advanced/blue/medium rare/ racehorse/ frankincense?

you add more than one name to a division it gets not only confusing, but useless. give it a categorical name that also positions it within the other divisions without needing any other referential information to understand it. numbers do this, nothing else does.

Why add the additional conversion to what tees are designed for a particular level when they are already defined? It's much easier to say that the red tees are designed to provide the best challenge for red level players rather than for Am3 or Am 4. Why make it more complicated when we can make it easy and do it right now?

because it will NEVER be the case that the 'blue' division will ONLY play the 'blue' tees, and it will NEVER be the case that there will be tees at every course that coincide with every division, therefore the colors will only eliminate all confusion when a course has 5 sets of tees AND that course decides to color code them the same way that you do.

i have never had the privilege to play a course with more than 'long' and 'short' tees. (but i will at the pfdo) every course around me has one or two sets of tees. they are longs and shorts.

i can imagine the players meeting. gold will play gold first round and blue second round, blue will play gold first and blue second. white will play blue first and white second, red will play white first and white second.

perhaps if every course were set up with 4 sets of tees, and everyone was happy playing only those tees during a tournament then this would work smoothly, but in my experience smoothly would not be the case.

No one is saying that divisions would be limited to only their tee color and that every course would need four sets of tees. However, the designers who care about designing courses appropriately for skill levels do address those issues in their design process And more and more of them are following those guidelines including Ken Rollins for Am Worlds coming soon to your backyard.

If the blue division is playing the gold tees, they know they'll need to step it up. If they play the reds, they should be able to shred the course. Perhaps you haven't seen it yet but when a course with blue and red sets of tees are put in, the designer determines whether the long or short tee is better for white level and marks that tee with white in addition to either red or blue. Then, they might even determine which holes might work better with temporary gold tees or pins for big tourneys.

Well since we dont want to degrade and hurt peoples feelings why dont we just add divisions called "All That Matters Is That You Tried" and "You're Still A Winner In Mommy's Eyes" or "Winnings Not As Important Just So Long As I'm Having Fun."


So you're saying that you're fine with the fact that regardless of what division you play... the fact is that when people talk about you going by your rating, you JD are a recreational disc golfer, and nothing more.

I believe that colors are a much better way to go. In terms of the system we have in place for defining teepads it makes sense. I fully agree with the color system of Open/Gold, Blue, White, Red, etc. Some people might only be 890s level golfers but they compete and therefore aren't just recreational golfers. Some people are sub 850, but it doesn't make them automatically new to the sport, they aren't novices. I really do think we need to simply go by color.



I'm perfectly fine with the color coding of divisions. All I'm saying is if you're going to change the division names then change them for legit reasons, and not because someone is upset over being called a Novice or Rec. It would be PC at its finest!

i dont want you to think i dont understand these things, i do. but what im saying is that colors have just as many problems as numbers, the two things that i think numbers have going for them are..
first, they are already in place and people have at least some sense of what they mean, and second, they reference each other. if i dont know a thing about this sport and see a list of am1-am4 i can understand some sort of relationship between them. if i see colors, (i personally dont know a thing about golf) i cant make relationships.

i know ideally that a system set up with the pdga as well as in place on all the courses could be beneficial. but i think more than the good that would do, the names that accompany the numbers are bad.

The problem you're overlooking with numbers is that you make women and older players second class citizens which doesn't happen with colors. Since we allow them to cross over to the younger men divisions, Advanced women and GMs would primarily be playing Am3 or Am4 instead of Red or Green. Yes, women could have their own FW1, FW2, etc. but that defeats the purpose of one main track of steps when you have FW1 with the same ratings breaks as Am3.

so are you proposing that gender and age protected divisions be dissolved?

Not at all. I just believe an Advanced Woman or FW1 woman or Advanced GM might prefer crossing over to the Red division versus Am3, especially if he event is run as ratings based. Not a huge thing but currently their choice is Rec or Novice. And as we've noted, many times these divisions are vacant partly because some players aren't liking the name.

after seeing you advocating color based ratings all this time, i think i finally understand.

what youre saying is that if a woman is playing advanced woman
and wanted to play in a division that wasnt gender protected, they would perhaps not be competitive in AM1 or 'advanced' they may have to drop to a division called 'intermediate' or even 'recreational', which could be perceptually a cut in skill level.

i think i got that straight.

what then is your proposal for a color system with masters grandmasters and women?

or perhaps the color system is only for events that are ratings based, so now we have two independent systems?

All I'm saying is if you're going to change the division names then change them for legit reasons


From this statement you must totally agree with this proposal.

As things stand, all new players will continue to say 'huh?' when presented with the options of Novice and Recreational when to them it sounds like the same exact thing. Present new players with only the option of Recreational division and let them aspire to become an Intermediate player and beyond in the future.

Also addressing the 'feelings' side of things JD, do you not think your just-released 896 rating says you know enough about the game to define you've at least reached an Intermediate level of understanding and skill?

what then is your proposal for a color system with masters grandmasters and women?

or perhaps the color system is only for events that are ratings based, so now we have two independent systems?



The colors would only be for our main backbone of the Am skill levels with Blue, White, Red, Green where everyone is allowed to play based on rating in regular events and would be required to play in ratings events with the addition of gold for pros and ams over 969 rating. All of the women and older am divisions would continue with their gender and age divisions as they are now. Although a case could be made to not have Int and Rec women division names and use Green and Purple for those levels since most players in that ratings range are women anyway with a few juniors and ams over 50.

All I'm saying is if you're going to change the division names then change them for legit reasons


From this statement you must totally agree with this proposal.

As things stand, all new players will continue to say 'huh?' when presented with the options of Novice and Recreational when to them it sounds like the same exact thing. Present new players with only the option of Recreational division and let them aspire to become an Intermediate player and beyond in the future.

Also addressing the 'feelings' side of things JD, do you not think your just-released 896 rating says you know enough about the game to define you've at least reached an Intermediate level of understanding and skill?



I'm perfectly fine with any proposal made by the PDGA to change the names of the divisions, so long as the reasons are to help better the understanding of where players feel they should play. Division names dont bother me at all, whether they're color based or not. But if the reasoning to change the names is because the PDGA doesnt want to make Little Jonny feel inadequate because he's rated a novice then I have an issue. Ratings IMO dont mean anything about where a person should belong, but merely a suggestion. The message I'm getting from you is that the PDGA should force members to play where their ratings are which will motivate them to play better to achiece the higher rating and thus move up. But, IMO, if L.J. doesnt want to be called a Novice then move up to Rec, and if the Rec. doesnt want to be called that then go to Int, and so forth.

But after reading this thread I'm also getting the impression that we're putting too much emphasis on labeling players based on their rating and subsequent division. The division for younger and newer players shouldnt matter. All that matters is where the player wants to be, and where he's most comfortable.

I may have a Rec rating (shame because all my practice isnt paying off), which shows I have high Rec skills, low Int. skills, but that doesnt define me as a golfer. Ratings and divisions do not define anyone.

The irony of me posting in this thread is that I was accused of sandbagging over the wknd. even though I finished near the bottom.

if the reasoning to change the names is because the PDGA doesnt want to make Little Jonny feel inadequate because he's rated a novice then I have an issue.


seems you probably don't have an issue.

Bottom line, the 2008 division names do not currently define skill levels properly from a descriptive standpoint - but they very well could with this simple fix.

Lake Woebegon (where everybody is above average)



AWESOME! 2 thumbs up for the reference!

and I personally dont think the names need changed again... stick it out with what we've got for a little while and see how it works... what I dont like/agree with is that we can have so many protected divisions within our protected division... advanced masters &amp; grandmasters, etc seems silly to me.

and this one is for Chuck...

why not name the divisions...

Pro
Co-Pro
Co-Co-Pro
.... you get the idea! ;)

Int Masters is not a PDGA division.

(This was in reference to a post that has since been edited but not marked as such)

I'd like to propose to the PDGA board adding the division name 'Superior' for those 'semi-pros' (many people feel like 'Expert' was a bit strong) in order to shift divisional names to make better sense and drop the term 'Novice' altogether which is often confused/interchangeable with Recreational.



No disrespect intended, but have you researched the definitions of 'superior', 'recreational' and 'novice'? Superior would be a better fit for the Open division, not the advanced division....and both recreational and novice appear to be appropriately labeled in regard to their respective definitions. There is a distinct difference between the novice and recreational player. I know when I began playing nearly 17 years ago, I wasn't ashamed to play in the novice division (and yes, it was called the "novice" division back then). I've got a trophy or two to prove it! :D

Int Masters is not a PDGA division.



lol... yeah... i meant Advanced Masters, grandmasters, etc.

i know that would 'get a lot of peoples goats' but if you feel the need to be protected from the Advanced field then move down to intermediate if your rating allows as such. If your rating is hight enough then duke it out with the Advanced boys.

i think the thing that makes the most sense is

open
am1
am2
am3
am4

why cant we see the numbers 1-4 as positional instead of hierarchical? am1 is higher rated and the level of play is higher, that doesnt mean that am1 is the best division in the world for ams.




The issue is that it makes too much sense to do it that way..

AND it was already done that way.....It seems that the "powers" COULDN'T backtrack.. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
Even though it works..........

Personally I doint think there is much of a need for AM4.

By the time a "player" is ready to play competitive DiscGolf, they are PAST that cutoff anyway....


:D

Having 4 AM tiers is ridiculous IMO. Some of the largest tournaments in the world are held up here in Oregon and every single time we just get people signing up for MA1 and MA2 (no MA3, let alone MA4!). Allowing AMs playing pro to receive payout in script has done a lot to encourage players to move up and compete in pro at the local level.

man you people can kick a dead horse :D

yes, 4 am divisions is silly in some regions, but it works in others. offering the MA4 division isn't mandatory. The system is fine the way it is structured.

Naming is another thing... but IMO the color names should be reserved for ratings-based events. If we're going to have age- and sex-protected divisions, the colors don't work as well. I do agree that the "descriptive" names we have now are inaccurate and in need of address, but... meh. Folks can always just refer to them as the division code (and no, there is no "am1". it's MA1") if they don't like the descriptive name. I think we'd be better off just dropping the name altogether in favor of the code. it would eliminate so many complaints.

I think the existence of protected divisions is a far bigger threat to the sport's future than the names of the divisions we have. I'm not saying that they'll prevent growth, I just mean that if the competition is going to address the divisional structure, they might want to start there.

Having 4 AM tiers is ridiculous IMO. Some of the largest tournaments in the world are held up here in Oregon and every single time we just get people signing up for MA1 and MA2 (no MA3, let alone MA4!). Allowing AMs playing pro to receive payout in script has done a lot to encourage players to move up and compete in pro at the local level.

Offer good tournaments for the Under 900 and Under 850 level players and they will play them. Over there in Illinois three days ago they had 56 players in the Under 900 division and 14 players in the Under 850 division. The PDGA made $500 on these two divisions in $3 and $10 fees. These players were 35% to 40% of field. What's to ridicule in that?

What is ridiculous is offering graduated entry fees, as if new players want a cheap tournament where all their entry fee gets eaten up by overhead whereas Advanced players want an expense tournament that can afford to pay for amenities. The idea that new players want a cheap, crappy tournament just is not true. If you establish a reputation for giving the Am3s and Am4s the same entry fee and the same quality tournament as the players in your most popular division, you'll have more Am3s and 4s simply because there's more of them.

I know from experience. We've tried it. It works.

I'm fine if you all copy us in Oregon, but please ignore our success in Wisconsin and Indiana. Slowly, but more and more each tournament, your smarter players are coming to us.

No disrespect intended, but have you researched the definitions of 'superior', 'recreational' and 'novice'? Superior would be a better fit for the Open division, not the advanced division....and both recreational and novice appear to be appropriately labeled in regard to their respective definitions. There is a distinct difference between the novice and recreational player. I know when I began playing nearly 17 years ago, I wasn't ashamed to play in the novice division (and yes, it was called the "novice" division back then). I've got a trophy or two to prove it! :D


Superior seems a better fit for high-level Advanced players than Expert (Expert says 'Pro' SO much more than Superior does but either term works for me). Also, Recreational could define both a player who has been playing for years and a brand new player, whereas Novice cannot. The term Novice indeed encompasses many players who have been playing for years but may not have the physical requirements or skillset to obtain a player rating above 850, therefore it is not the best descriptor.

look at the pga........you are either a pro, or amateur........why not just let all ams play together, all age groups and genders, then use a flight system for the field after the first 2 rounds? the lower the flights, the lower the payouts.

2 divisions with flights after first 2 rounds.

kiss.......keep it simple silly!

if this won't work, I like Jebs idea.....

JD....wow.....find an outlet for your anger, disc golf is just making you bitter.

There are no amateurs in the PGA dude.

If we go with colors... Gold is not a color, it's a metal.

My suggestion would be to go with "World Championship" colors.

Blue (Open Pro)
Red (Cat 2)
Black (Cat 3)
Yellow (Cat 4)
Green (Recreational)

Cat stands for Category. It's just a way of shuffling people of different experience levels into the right division.

Because really, if you are competitive with a player regardless of age, you are well matched.

Because really, if you are competitive with a player regardless of age, you are well matched.



Amen to that... i know it might offend some people but i think its ridiculous to have age protected divisions in the am ranks... there are already so many ratings break points that you are going to be able to find the division you are competitive in and belong in without needing another division.

something could also be said about the pro age protected divisions as well... something like if you are over 1000 or 1005 no matter what your age/situation you have to 'move up' to the Open division (except maybe Masters only events)... either that or jack the masters payout down enough so that they will either go to Open for the $ or stay in masters/gm/etc and hang with friends.

and for the record... im not personally faulting any master or older player that currently plays in any protected division... if its there... use it. you aren't breaking any rules just using the system the way it is currently designed.

Current membership shows that players over age 39 are 1/3 of members with Advanced Master men alone coming close to 2000 members by the end of this year (almost 1800 end of 2006). That's one of our largest divisions looked at from that perspective regardless that it's age based.

but also one of the most varied in terms of ratings... since there's no Intermediate Masters, you are lumping it in as all AM Masters, Basically, that's all Ams over 40 and under 50.

So while it's a big division, many do not consider themselves Advanced Masters, some consider themselves Advanced, some play Pro Masters, some play Intermediate, and some play Advanced Masters.

It all depends on who they are competitive with.... think about it....

I don't disagree. But their voice is louder than many other groups and the pressure has been there for a long time to retain the division and actually add a ratings break to it for the very reason you mentioned regarding the ratings range. Having better names for the main Am divisions can help reduce that pressure because they do have places to cross over to at the same rating level should they not wish to play against the top Adv Masters.

Current membership shows that players over age 39 are 1/3 of members with Advanced Master men alone coming close to 2000 members by the end of this year (almost 1800 end of 2006). That's one of our largest divisions looked at from that perspective regardless that it's age based.



'im no english major' but that should mean that 2/3 are under 39 making them the majority or are you saying that the masters are a vocal minority when you look at who serves on the board and the pdga and throw in the apathy of the youth?

That's true that 2/3 are under 39 but their primary battle is when should someone turn pro. Those over 39 have typically been more vocal. We have two Board members in MM1, Brenner and Andrews, with Bellinger close and Decker in MG1. Then, Dodge and Convers in MPO although both could play MPM, then Shive in MPS. Juliana may be the youngest in the next Board depending on who gets elected.

First, a caveat: I'm not masters eligible until 2013, but I've had a number of conversations with guys who play Adv. Masters about the division.

A number of guys who are 880-920 type golfers like playing Adv Masters. Why not play INT?

In Adv. Masters they're playing with guys who generally know the rules, who don't act like they just learned how to swear and want to try it after every throw. I heard the comment of "its relaxed, yet competitive golf." They can't hang with the MA1 players, but don't want to hang out with the MA2 players.

Some are out there to get away from their teenagers for a tournament and don't want to be reminded of their teens by playing with other teens.

So don't begrudge the folks their "Advanced Age" division... before you know it, you'll be there too...

and i dont think a lot of the youngin's want to have grandpa hanging out with them telling them how things used to be and complaining about how their doctor cut them off their prescription of viagra ;)

but on the positive side... thats one of the cool things about the sport... having such an eclectic mix out on the course together. i've never agreed with the need for the division based on 'common interests' and such personally.
I'm married and I play in advanced... i've decided I only want to play with other married guys so I dont have to hear about all the young single guys talk about all the girls they are/arent dating, etc, etc. ;)

protected divisions should only be based on skill and not protecting people from conversations they dont want to have or situations they dont want to be in.

Bottom line: Offering masters divisions sells more entry fees at local tournaments. Until I'm filling 22 holes both days with fivesomes I'm going to offer masters divisions. Doesn't matter whether it makes competitive sense. So shut up before I start talking about how things used to be.

So shut up before I start talking about how things used to be.



whats that?... sorry I couldnt hear you... I was listening to my ipod! ;)

In one sense I agree that there is no reason to have age protected divisions when we have ratings based divisions. However, being 50, I like playing with kids my own age. I play Novice when I am free on the day Novice is offered. At Bruce's tournaments Recreational is offered the same day as Advanced Grandmasters. If I play really well I can come in the middle of the pack in Rec. No matter what I do I will be at or near the bottom in GM based on the players who usually show up. However, I like their company and prefer to play with them. I think it can be more of a social thing. Most of the GM's who play in Bruce's tournaments would be very competitive in Rec. and some in Intermediate as they all hover around 900 ( 8-9 strokes better than me). Yet, they often sign up to play GM where they will win less swag and get less points since its a smaller division.

I tottaly agree, as you can see. Advance players whom are elgible are starting to filter down to Intermediate. Fix it back PDGA ;)

There are no amateurs in the PGA dude.


There is the USGA and the PGA ... 2 seperate groups that work together. One promoting the tour, the other responsible for the rules.

There are no amateurs in the PGA dude.


There is the USGA and the PGA ... 2 seperate groups that work together. One promoting the tour, the other responsible for the rules.



Actually 3 groups...

There's the USGA - They make the rules - They run the US Open too, along with the US Amateur, and a bunch of other big am tourneys like Juniors...
There's the PGA - They are the group that oversees the teaching pros and the course pros... the golfers who work at golf courses... They run the PGA championship.
Then there's the PGA Tour... they run the Tour and include just the tour golfers.

3 organizations.... not just two...

FYI, the advanced masters division is not only a very big division, it is only getting bigger. We are starting to compete with other divisions at certain events. Also, many of the players who are starting to play MM1 are seasoned advanced players who have played for years. The guy who just recently won the masters cup in De La, placed 5th in advanced the year prior at the same event. I saw that he was registered for MM1, and was not the least bit surprised that he won it.

So the level of play in MM1 is more like advanced than MA2. Most of the guys who play in MM1 would be bagging for the most part in MA2 and would cash.

I'm not seeing the Advanced Masters division getting bigger at our tournaments. I'm seeing a lot of the over 40 players competing in ratings based divisions instead of age based divisions. Maybe it is a regional thing.

I'm not seeing the Advanced Masters division getting bigger at our tournaments. I'm seeing a lot of the over 40 players competing in ratings based divisions instead of age based divisions. Maybe it is a regional thing.


agreed. many around here are starting to play Intermediate or Advanced. (which with the name tweak could be Adv and Sup) ;)

Doubtless is a regional thing....Advanced Masters is growing around here, and would grow faster if not for the growing Advanced Grandmasters taking some of players at the other end.

I'm 49 and until the last 2 years bounced between Advanced Masters and Advanced, depending on my whims (though with my rating, should have chosen Intermediate). The general atmosphere is quite different. It can be fun playing among diverse ages---we do this weekly in local play, anyway---but you younger folks may have to wait another 20 years to find why it's more pleasant to play among other old folks. Just as there are over-40 basketball leagues, tennis, etc.

That said....it wouldn't bother me to curtail the age-protected divisions. I like playing in as large a division as possible, and we've split up into so many little groups that we end up playing with the same people, all tournament, all year. (I'm sure some of my fellow Advanced Masters are tired of playing with me by now).

And I should mention that one of the tournaments I TD, March Madness, has no age divisions.....or any other, for that matter, than Pro &amp; Amateur. It fills or nearly fills and seems to suit those who play.

I would really like to see the PDGA fix this division back to the way it was, or make an Intermediate Masters. Kill the Rec division, make Intermediate back to 915 and down. Take the non-rated players. Allow them to play in PDGA events, but, have them play against the Advance players. Most of the Advance players can compete with most non-rated players. Instead of making them pay an extra $5:00, have them play Advance. That is kinda middle ground. This would prevent non - rated from killing the Intermediates simplay because they are local, and play only 1 tnmt a year. IMO :D

Well, if the PDGA is going to consider the name change again perhaps just get rid of Novice and Rec. and start with Intermediate being the bottom.

Intermediate and Int. Masters
Advanced and Adv. Masters
Semi-Pro (the new Advanced)
Open Professional
Professional Masters
Professional Grandmasters
Professional Senior Grandmasters
Professional Legends

Unless the PDGA decides to do the Color thing which is fine IMO.

Names are fine, just correct the numbers 000-935 is a long way for an Intermediate. A 934, is almost able to compete with the Pro's ;).

Dude, your names would be great

Starting with Intermediate is exclusionary.

Semi-Pro? Starring Will Ferrell?

Anyhow, the point of this proposal is to once-and-for-all allow division names to be accurately descriptive and still co-exist with existing colors, classifications, and numerical values.

Open
Under 970
Under 935
Under 900
Under 850

These names would work.

Open
Under 970
Under 935
Under 900
Under 850

These names would work.




This man is a genius

but
Under 970 Senior Grand Master is cumbersome.

We could just call them Under 970, Over 59. :D

but
Under 970 Senior Grand Master is cumbersome.



Just change the name to Under 970 Over 60...

60+ Under 970

but
Under 970 Senior Grand Master is cumbersome.



Just change the name to Under 970 Over 60...



Of course you can play Advanced Grand Master if you're a pro only if you're under 900... and the table of divisions doesn't include advanced senior grandmaster...

bump up.

As someone stated this weekend, this proposed change would end up supporting the moniker 'Super-Am' which many people have already been calling the 935+ players.

Could we use something as simple as letters? Everyone has grown up with an alphabet, with grades, etc... and know that A is above B is above C, etc...

Split out the pros, since there are definite differences in payout, fees, membership dues, etc... between pro and am, but just give letters to the am divisions:

Pro division = 970+
A league = 935-969
B league = 900-934
C league = 850-899
D league = 849 or less.

It also might encourage more people to move up, since we have a societal pressure from gradeschool to aspire for those A's. It also mirrors the system used for a lot of intramural sports in colleges/universities, etc... where the higher the letter, the more competitive you are trying to be. It eliminates any confusion over what the different names mean, since we would be using a system that already exists in people's minds and is universally understood.

Players trapped below C level for a long time might drown...

These are way better.......

CPRG = can play really great 970+

CPG = can play good 935-969


CPOK = can ply o kay 900-934


CWOAOC = can walk on and off course 850-899


MFR = might finish round 849 or less.

No matter if there are colors, numbers, or abbreviated classifications (AM1, AM2, etc) there will ALWAYS be a need for a <u>common-sense descriptive name</u> to support all these pre-existing methods of divisional classification. Here's a pretty good real-world example of similar potential for confusion:

http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/6751/200hsaschartnv9.jpg

Just using the terror-alert scale as an example, would much of anyone who hasnt committed the color scale to memory know what you meant if you stated that on Saturday the terror alert went from Blue to Orange then back to Green but on Sunday it jumped to Yellow and then leveled off at Blue? (using the descriptive names, it makes MUCH more sense universally when you say the terror level on Sat went from Guarded to High, then leveled off at Low, but on Sunday it jumped to Elevated and leveled off at Guarded). Descriptive names WITH colors removes all ambiguity that colors-only introduce.

The same potential for mass-confusion applies to colors-only with PDGA divisions - take for instance a B-Tier (this point was already made earlier in the thread):

*using proposed divisional names and no age protection:

Hard Way:
Saturday at course A - White, Red, Green, Green ladies
Saturday at course B - Gold, Blue, White ladies, Juniors

Easy Way:
Saturday at course A - Adv, Int, Rec, Rec Ladies
Saturday at course B - Open, Super-Am, Adv Ladies, Jrs.


Again, the way the names are assigned right now the confusion level is still higher than it need be from a descriptive standpoint, which seems the final step to perfect how colors, abbreviations, numbers and names ALL interact.

Players trapped below C level for a long time might drown...



Chuck:
I like puns probably quite a bit more than the next guy, but that one even made me groan.
We may have to start fining you for the especially egregious ones, however clever they may be ...
;)

Sometimes though it's the point not the pun that matters... ;)

how about just open, am, and am 2

why do we have so many am divisions anyway?

if these ams in the lower divs like novice would move up and
actually watch some good golf...maybe "donate" a few times
they would actually get a better at a faster rate!!!! i also think the ratings break should take the best of the ams(910-960) into am 1 and the worst of the ams (910-799)and just have two ams divs!!! i just dont see the point in having so many am divs!!!!! does anyone agree with this or am i the only one that thinks this way????

i am rated 930 or so and i dont think its fair that i have the opportunity to play against intermediate!!! although i have...and i didnt do so well....but i also believe it was b/c i played at a course i had never seen and i was playing against people who didnt push my game to be better i actually played down to there level!!!!! im not saying im a pro by any means but anyone who knows me knows i shouldnt play int.!!!!! so i just dont understand why they made that div bigger!!!! chuck can you shed some light on this for me????

The division rating breaks are based on a spread that statistically allows the lowest rated in each range to have a chance to cash every so often if they play well and that's also balanced with the numbers of PDGA members in those ranges. Some places have adjusted to the breaks and more of their players play within their ratangs range and others have more players that play up. Players having a choice and opportunities for a fair chance at cashing are two of the fundamental underpinnings of the divisional structure.

Many who lobby for fewer divisions seem to be looking for bigger payouts, not necessarily facing better competition which thay can already do by playing up. They also neglect how many members we actually have with ratings below 875 who get hurt the most with those consolidation ideas and it's also where most of our new members come from.

if these ams in the lower divs like novice would move up and actually watch some good golf...maybe "donate" a few times they would actually get a better at a faster rate!!!!



Not necessarily....some of us are as good as we're ever going to get, no matter who we watch or compete against.

On the other hand....I live in a place where about 90% of Ams play in a division above their rating. "Moving up" is an epidemic around here.

The division rating breaks are based on a spread that statistically allows the lowest rated in each range to have a chance to cash every so often if they play well and that's also balanced with the numbers of PDGA members in those ranges. Some places have adjusted to the breaks and more of their players play within their ratangs range and others have more players that play up. Players having a choice and opportunities for a fair chance at cashing are two of the fundamental underpinnings of the divisional structure.

Many who lobby for fewer divisions seem to be looking for bigger payouts, not necessarily facing better competition which thay can already do by playing up. They also neglect how many members we actually have with ratings below 875 who get hurt the most with those consolidation ideas and it's also where most of our new members come from.



do you actually think that some one rated 875 or 850 cant be competitve with a 909 rated golfer?

im a 933 rated golfer and i often can be competitive with golfers 40-50pts higher than me!!! and i think this is especially true with golfers that are newer to the game, since they are always playing behind there rating!!! now if someone has been playing for 10 years and are rated 875 then they are a true 875 but if someone has been playing less than a yr and a half and they are rated 875 they are probably still fighting off those horrible tournament rounds from early on in there pdga tenure!
if you continue to make divisions for the weaker players you will eventually lose more players due to the lower payouts!!!!! i know first hand that people in the dfw area are tired of the weak payouts run by TD'S that have there own interests in mind and not the spirit of the competitor!!! thats why when DD comes to town(jeremy rusco and crowd) they always have the biggest turnouts and the biggest payouts!!!! and all he is doing is what players have been asking him to do!!! all i know is if you continue to weaken the weaker players then this sport will go no where!!!! why not have an ADGA (AM DG ASSOC) still run by the pdga but pdga should be for pros and those intending on going pro! might i add is prob not me....atleast not a traveling pro!!! i play to have fun and win $ or disc's when i can but when td's are charging $50 to play a tourney and you win in adv and you only get $100 in merch... which only costs the td prob $40 it just sours my feelings for the sport as a whole!!!! ive played a lot of different sports in tournament form(golf, softball, pool, poker, darts, etc) and the winners always take 25-35% of the prize pool!!! its kind of like a mini, if you have 40 open players, top 25% will cash and after ace pot and course fund the rest is payed out! whats wrong with that system...besides the pdga's piece of the action???? i thought thats what we pay you for each year!!!

Here we go again...

Here we go again...



Phillip sounds like Matt, hmmmmm. :D

No, I don't think someone rated 850 will be competitive with a 910 rated player. That's 6 strokes per round. Such a player might fluke one spectacular round and beat a 910 rated player but over three rounds he's going to get shellacked, even if he's up and coming.

I personally am rootin' for

Super Men &gt; 970
Sort of Super Men &gt; 935 (but think they should be Super Men)
Allowed to wear tights 900 - 934 (fantasize about being Super Men)
Can wear underwear with super hero theme 850 - 899 (play Super Men when no one else is watching)
Can wear pajamas with super hero theme &lt; 850 (play supermen only at home and when their wives/girlfriends aren't looking)

No, I don't think someone rated 850 will be competitive with a 910 rated player. That's 6 strokes per round. Such a player might fluke one spectacular round and beat a 910 rated player but over three rounds he's going to get shellacked, even if he's up and coming.



Well lyle o ross.....explain to me how anyone ever gets beat by someone with a lower rating!!!!!

ie: lyle ross (878) beat louis hall (916) by ten strokes at gulf coast champ finale

phillip hall (933) beat chad smith (982) by 6 strokes at the '07 farenheit fling
phillip hall (933) beat mike sayre(988) by 1 stroke and rob knight(971) and tied chris albert (989) at the paul giles memorial '07

so lyle im not really understanding what you are talking about!!!!! you have been playing dg for a long time and honestly i can tell you prob wont get much better....you might hit 900....one day!!!!!! and im not saying im the best player out there b/c im not even close but i will say this.....ever since i tested out the open field....i got 4 strokes better....but with the ratings system in place now....it will take me a year to see the results on my rating...but its the weak minded people like yourself that dont think that you can beat someone better than you....i for one dont think like that!!!! i go into every tourney to win!!!! and the 2 tourneys that i have won....it seems like the benifit isnt what it should be!!! if there were less divs the payouts would be higher!!!! and that would attract more people!!!

Here we go again...



Phillip sounds like Matt, hmmmmm. :D



matt who?

Do you know your punctuation is really annoying?????I can't even read stuff punctuated like this.......I'm so offended by your punctuation, I'm tempted to notify the moderators!!!!!

Do you know your punctuation is really annoying?????I can't even read stuff punctuated like this.......I'm so offended by your punctuation, I'm tempted to notify the moderators!!!!!



I find I never agree with anyone who can only use the shift key when reaching for the punctuation!!!!!!!!!!!???????????? ;)

if there were less divs the payouts would be higher!!!! and that would attract more people!!!



I believe we've attracted more people since going to more divisions. Regardless of the doomsday predictions expressed by some with each change over the years.

While fewer, larger divisions will result in higher payouts, not everyone thinks this is a good idea below the Open division. Some think huge Am payouts reward sandbagging, and smaller Am divisions and smaller Am payouts encourage players to "move up" if they want material rewards.

(Personally, as a lifetime Am, I'd prefer fewer, larger divisions---but for other reasons).

No, I don't think someone rated 850 will be competitive with a 910 rated player. That's 6 strokes per round. Such a player might fluke one spectacular round and beat a 910 rated player but over three rounds he's going to get shellacked, even if he's up and coming.



Well lyle o ross.....explain to me how anyone ever gets beat by someone with a lower rating!!!!!

ie: lyle ross (878) beat louis hall (916) by ten strokes at gulf coast champ finale

phillip hall (933) beat chad smith (982) by 6 strokes at the '07 farenheit fling
phillip hall (933) beat mike sayre(988) by 1 stroke and rob knight(971) and tied chris albert (989) at the paul giles memorial '07

so lyle im not really understanding what you are talking about!!!!! you have been playing dg for a long time and honestly i can tell you prob wont get much better....you might hit 900....one day!!!!!! and im not saying im the best player out there b/c im not even close but i will say this.....ever since i tested out the open field....i got 4 strokes better....but with the ratings system in place now....it will take me a year to see the results on my rating...but its the weak minded people like yourself that dont think that you can beat someone better than you....i for one dont think like that!!!! i go into every tourney to win!!!! and the 2 tourneys that i have won....it seems like the benifit isnt what it should be!!! if there were less divs the payouts would be higher!!!! and that would attract more people!!!



Yawn,

Go back and look at the numbers and you'll realize that prior to Gulf Coast I hadn't played in a tourney for some time, the leap in beating Louis wasn't a long one, rather one based on building a skill set by practicing away from tournaments.

BTW - Currently, I play about 950 to 970 depending on the course, but if you'll look, you'll see I haven't played a tourney in some time, which is why my rating is low (even with the inevitable reduction in rating due to playing under the pressure of a tournament, I'm pretty confident that it would still be higher than 870). However, one's rating isn't an indication of intelligence or an ability to analyze a situation. Nor is hyperbole or open prejudgment of another person.

I will concede the point that flukes happen, but on average they don't and thus, you're missing the point. What you're suggesting is building a system based on fluke events or up and coming players. That isn't the wisest thing to do IMO. I'll concede that you've beaten some players who are better than you and that such events are inevitable, but in the greater scheme of things it's an overall blip. Ratings serve a general purpose and should not be taken as the end all of information. BTW - let's up the anti, do you think that a player rated six strokes under a better player will consistently beat that player? Do you think they will beat that player two tourneys in a row. How about through an entire season?

Also, don't assume that I support the current system or that I think change isn't good. You also shouldn't assume that I can't recognize self interest either...

Here we go again...



Phillip sounds like Matt, hmmmmm. :D



matt who?



It's another Hall, the same name caught my attention, and the overall approach is very similar. If you don't know Matt,you should play with him. Nice guy, ballistic at times, but a darn good player, and smart for his age.

Playing in divisions isn't match play against one other person but many in the same ratings range. Statistically, there will always be some players with lower ratings beating those with higher ratings in every event. However, it's one thing to beat one higher rated player, but to beat the field is a rare occurrence. The higher those other ratings are above yours the less likely you beat them all, especially in four rounds. Anyone can beat anyone within 100 rating points in a single round league. Unlikely ever in four rounds if both players have established ratings.

if there were less divs the payouts would be higher!!!! and that would attract more people!!!



I believe we've attracted more people since going to more divisions. Regardless of the doomsday predictions expressed by some with each change over the years.

While fewer, larger divisions will result in higher payouts, not everyone thinks this is a good idea below the Open division. Some think huge Am payouts reward sandbagging, and smaller Am divisions and smaller Am payouts encourage players to "move up" if they want material rewards.

(Personally, as a lifetime Am, I'd prefer fewer, larger divisions---but for other reasons).



Phillip,

What David is saying here is true. The reason for the larger number of divisions, is that is what has attracted more players. People who've been playing this sport for some time (guys who work with the PDGA) noticed that a lot of players ended being donators (sp?)! And after some time, they quit. The larger divisional structure has kept those players involved and active, and was structured to do that.

Matt Hall is a Pro player and he, along with some others, has argued vociferously for fewer divisions (I think that's the approach they take) and a structure that would push more players into the Pro division (see James McCain). Now, I believe James will state clearly that this isn't his intent, but it plays out the same.

The reason Tony wrote "here we go again" is because this argument happens about one to two times a year with great heat and enjoyment by all. James, Matt, KMack, are you there?

The evidence is clear. Fewer divisions chases players away. The people who don't like it, in general, appear to be those, who by all appearances, would gain by having more donators in their pool. I can't state it any better than David did.

This is why many people argue for a trophy only structure for Ams. No "incentive" to stay there and the cost to play is minimal so you don't care if you don't win. That pushes those who want to play for rewards into Pro or Semi-Pro divisions.

No one wants this, people value the plastic they win and that allows some to argue they are all getting rich reselling plastic. Did you know that's how Donald Trump got rich, reselling his one merchandise from DG tourneys...

I heard he won his rare albino hairpiece at the Beaver State Fling...

Do you know your punctuation is really annoying?????I can't even read stuff punctuated like this.......I'm so offended by your punctuation, I'm tempted to notify the moderators!!!!!



Do you know that i dont give a {edit}?????????????????????
do you know that youre a [censored] bag????????????????????
do you know that youre just an old man with senility problems?????????????????????????????????????????
do you know youre wife keeps calling me b/c of your E.D.???
SHE LOVES MY PUNCTUALITY, THIS WAY SHE DOESNT HAVE TO WAIT THE HOUR AND A HALF FOR YOUR CIALIS TO WORK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

HOW DO YOU LIKE MY PUNCTUATION NOW????????????

learn to speak when spoken to bruce.......it was a hard lesson for your wife to learn too!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :eek: :D:o

but atleast she finally got it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

but my original point was to have fewer am divisions! not for my benifit, but for the pdga's benifit. i will eventually go pro and stay pro, but in the mean time, it honestly seems that anyone who wins an am event is getting shafted! its not like they are adding more cash to the open field! if the were, i would understand, but they arent! the only way most TD'S
add cash is only if it was donated or they went out and fund raised! in my opinion, if they are going to screw the ams, then beef up the pro payout! lets show the ams a real reason to move up! if you look at a lot of the pro payouts in the D/FW AREA you would understand! ive never seen so many a/b tiers win under $350! i just feel bad for the traveling pros that come here and see our payouts, i honestly feel ashamed!

rob peter to pay paul if you have to, but dont rob the ams to pay yourself is what i am saying!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!

ams are how the td's make money anyway so less ams less money made! all im asking is to make the payouts fair! they can charge what they want for their plastic, but atleast give us the correct payout %! i think this is stemmed from the PDGA'S weak payout calculator! if there are 50 in advanced, $60 entry, pay the top 15 people! thats a prize pool of $3000
minus the pdga fees and park fees so lets just say that only $50 goes to the actual prize pool. thats $2500 to prize pool.

1.$500 (20%)
2.$375 (15%)
3.$250 (10%)
4.$200 (8%)
5.$175 (7%)
6.$150 (6%)
7.$125 (5%)
8.$100 (4%)
9.$87 (3.5%)
10.$75 (3%)
11.$62 (2.5%)
12.$50 (2%)
13.$38 (1.5%)
14.$25 (1%)
15.$13 (.5%)

thats a total of $2225 with $275 left to add to the open winner.
and PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE DONT FORGET that the actual prizes won are 40%cheaper for the TD'S . so in all actuality if you take the $2225 minus the actual cost of the discs sold or payed out $1335 this leaves the TD $940 LEFT OVER FOR HIM.....AND THIS IS ONLY FROM THE ADVANCED DIVISION!

so i just need help with this.....why are the tds so stingy????

The mistake in your assumption is that 50 Ams would pay $60 where only 15 get paid. The payout structure we have is as much a part of the growth in participation as any other factor. If you look at the TD reports for the events you say aren't paying out well enough overall, you would discover that most and likely all meet the PDGA minimums and several of them much more than that. Player packs, trophies and CTPs are all part of the Am payouts.

if there were less divs the payouts would be higher!!!! and that would attract more people!!!



I believe we've attracted more people since going to more divisions. Regardless of the doomsday predictions expressed by some with each change over the years.

While fewer, larger divisions will result in higher payouts, not everyone thinks this is a good idea below the Open division. Some think huge Am payouts reward sandbagging, and smaller Am divisions and smaller Am payouts encourage players to "move up" if they want material rewards.

(Personally, as a lifetime Am, I'd prefer fewer, larger divisions---but for other reasons).



Phillip,

What David is saying here is true. The reason for the larger number of divisions, is that is what has attracted more players. People who've been playing this sport for some time (guys who work with the PDGA) noticed that a lot of players ended being donators (sp?)! And after some time, they quit. The larger divisional structure has kept those players involved and active, and was structured to do that.

Matt Hall is a Pro player and he, along with some others, has argued vociferously for fewer divisions (I think that's the approach they take) and a structure that would push more players into the Pro division (see James McCain). Now, I believe James will state clearly that this isn't his intent, but it plays out the same.

The reason Tony wrote "here we go again" is because this argument happens about one to two times a year with great heat and enjoyment by all. James, Matt, KMack, are you there?

The evidence is clear. Fewer divisions chases players away. The people who don't like it, in general, appear to be those, who by all appearances, would gain by having more donators in their pool. I can't state it any better than David did.

This is why many people argue for a trophy only structure for Ams. No "incentive" to stay there and the cost to play is minimal so you don't care if you don't win. That pushes those who want to play for rewards into Pro or Semi-Pro divisions.

No one wants this, people value the plastic they win and that allows some to argue they are all getting rich reselling plastic. Did you know that's how Donald Trump got rich, reselling his one merchandise from DG tourneys...



im not trying to chase off the weaker people but it seems to me that the only ones really benifiting from more divisions is the PDGA and TD'S!!!! i just totally disagree with this!

if the pdga wants to get rid of those "SANDBAGGERS" they should lower the rating scale for pros! and make it mandatory for ams with high ratings play pro! i wouldn't mind playing for cash in a PRO2 type division! i dont think innova or discraft would like that but oh well! or instead of pro 2 why not make 940-970 advanced and they play for cash! i dont think its fair that people sandbag either, but the pdga is the ones allowing it with their weak guidelines! if a player is rated over 970 why would he win am nats? how is this possible? you are the ones allowing it!

Playing in divisions isn't match play against one other person but many in the same ratings range. Statistically, there will always be some players with lower ratings beating those with higher ratings in every event. However, it's one thing to beat one higher rated player, but to beat the field is a rare occurrence. The higher those other ratings are above yours the less likely you beat them all, especially in four rounds. Anyone can beat anyone within 100 rating points in a single round league. Unlikely ever in four rounds if both players have established ratings.



This is why we keep Chuck around, he actually knows what he's saying...

Now Phillip,

Let's get to the meat of it. I'm a strong proponent of the AMs should be Ams model. Trophy only! The divisional structure matters less to me than this. I don't buy the notion that guys stay am to get rich. I just don't think the structure is necessary, and I strongly believe you will motivate more people to begin to play and to keep playing by lowering their cost to play.

im not trying to chase off the weaker people but it seems to me that the only ones really benifiting from more divisions is the PDGA and TD'S!!!! i just totally disagree with this!


The players are the ones you need to convince. Tournaments are market driven based on player choices not the PDGA or TDs. The PDGA and TDs have reacted with policies based on what players want because they can't force players do what they don't want to do.

The mistake in your assumption is that 50 Ams would pay $60 where only 15 get paid. The payout structure we have is as much a part of the growth in participation as any other factor. If you look at the TD reports for the events you say aren't paying out well enough overall, you would discover that most and likely all meet the PDGA minimums and several of them much more than that. Player packs, trophies and CTPs are all part of the Am payouts.



ok for one, ctp are 99% of the time donated by the club, players packs are a joke! ive seen a td tell me that my players pack was a $30 value, it was a t-shirt and a $10 coupon for a disc! where in the heck do you buy a $20 t-shirt?
and this man told me this with conviction!!!! i laughed in his face and handed him his t-shirt back! i understand what the pdga is trying to do by paying out more, i simply made the comment that disc golf is the only type of tournament that i have ever played that pays out 50% of the people if not more! most tournaments in any form pay top 25%-30%! thats any sport ive ever played in tournament form!!!!!!! why is it ok for the tds to want us to pay $50 for an entry for the possible payback of maybe $110 or $120? i played in a tournament last weekend which was a c tier and the entry was $40 and the first place in advanced was $190!!!!! thats a payout!!!! this was also a fundraiser for the VPO ! so if one td can do it why cant this be the standard? if a td can raise funds for one tourney and still pay out 20% of the purse to 1st place and 15% to second why cant they all???? oh yeah tooooo many TDS tryin to get rich off of a game that isnt going to make in the real world if we have cheap stingy scoundrels running our tourneys!!!!!!!!!!

A piece of advice,

Don't refer to those guys as weaker players. Some of them are very good and have been playing for years. They just don't play tournaments any more. What a player is and what their rating is are very different. Some of the best advice and learning I've received have been from players rated under 930, and I've received help from guys rated all over the place. None of them were weak, just different.

The reality is that human nature makes people do what best interests them. If that is finding a division that serves them, they will. If that means quitting if there is nothing that suits them, they will. The PDGA needs to find something that motivates them. Right now that is more divisions, I feel there are other better alternatives, but, I do know that pushing people to play where they don't want to will not work. It never has.

BTW - I'm still opting for the Superman division! :D

The mistake in your assumption is that 50 Ams would pay $60 where only 15 get paid. The payout structure we have is as much a part of the growth in participation as any other factor. If you look at the TD reports for the events you say aren't paying out well enough overall, you would discover that most and likely all meet the PDGA minimums and several of them much more than that. Player packs, trophies and CTPs are all part of the Am payouts.



ok for one, ctp are 99% of the time donated by the club, players packs are a joke! ive seen a td tell me that my players pack was a $30 value, it was a t-shirt and a $10 coupon for a disc! where in the heck do you buy a $20 t-shirt?
and this man told me this with conviction!!!! i laughed in his face and handed him his t-shirt back! i understand what the pdga is trying to do by paying out more, i simply made the comment that disc golf is the only type of tournament that i have ever played that pays out 50% of the people if not more! most tournaments in any form pay top 25%-30%! thats any sport ive ever played in tournament form!!!!!!! why is it ok for the tds to want us to pay $50 for an entry for the possible payback of maybe $110 or $120? i played in a tournament last weekend which was a c tier and the entry was $40 and the first place in advanced was $190!!!!! thats a payout!!!! this was also a fundraiser for the VPO ! so if one td can do it why cant this be the standard? if a td can raise funds for one tourney and still pay out 20% of the purse to 1st place and 15% to second why cant they all???? oh yeah tooooo many TDS tryin to get rich off of a game that isnt going to make in the real world if we have cheap stingy scoundrels running our tourneys!!!!!!!!!!



All of this is true, but what Chuck says is correct, TDs control this and they do it because it works or at least they perceive it as working.

IMO, the overall structure is rotten. The plain and simple fact is that we are playing for our own money and that means people want something back. You're not going to get sponsorship dollars (don't fool yourself) so you either need a completely different model or you stick with something like the one we have.

i just hate td's that try to make a living off of my entry!

im still down for the pro2 div! paying cash!!!!!!!

Do you know your punctuation is really annoying?????I can't even read stuff punctuated like this.......I'm so offended by your punctuation, I'm tempted to notify the moderators!!!!!



Do you know that i dont give a {edit}?????????????????????
do you know that youre a [censored] bag????????????????????
do you know that youre just an old man with senility problems?????????????????????????????????????????
do you know youre wife keeps calling me b/c of your E.D.???
SHE LOVES MY PUNCTUALITY, THIS WAY SHE DOESNT HAVE TO WAIT THE HOUR AND A HALF FOR YOUR CIALIS TO WORK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

HOW DO YOU LIKE MY PUNCTUATION NOW????????????

learn to speak when spoken to bruce.......it was a hard lesson for your wife to learn too!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :eek: :D:o

but atleast she finally got it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

but my original point was to have fewer am divisions! not for my benifit, but for the pdga's benifit. i will eventually go pro and stay pro, but in the mean time, it honestly seems that anyone who wins an am event is getting shafted! its not like they are adding more cash to the open field! if the were, i would understand, but they arent! the only way most TD'S
add cash is only if it was donated or they went out and fund raised! in my opinion, if they are going to screw the ams, then beef up the pro payout! lets show the ams a real reason to move up! if you look at a lot of the pro payouts in the D/FW AREA you would understand! ive never seen so many a/b tiers win under $350! i just feel bad for the traveling pros that come here and see our payouts, i honestly feel ashamed!

rob peter to pay paul if you have to, but dont rob the ams to pay yourself is what i am saying!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!

ams are how the td's make money anyway so less ams less money made! all im asking is to make the payouts fair! they can charge what they want for their plastic, but atleast give us the correct payout %! i think this is stemmed from the PDGA'S weak payout calculator! if there are 50 in advanced, $60 entry, pay the top 15 people! thats a prize pool of $3000
minus the pdga fees and park fees so lets just say that only $50 goes to the actual prize pool. thats $2500 to prize pool.

1.$500 (20%)
2.$375 (15%)
3.$250 (10%)
4.$200 (8%)
5.$175 (7%)
6.$150 (6%)
7.$125 (5%)
8.$100 (4%)
9.$87 (3.5%)
10.$75 (3%)
11.$62 (2.5%)
12.$50 (2%)
13.$38 (1.5%)
14.$25 (1%)
15.$13 (.5%)

thats a total of $2225 with $275 left to add to the open winner.
and PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE DONT FORGET that the actual prizes won are 40%cheaper for the TD'S . so in all actuality if you take the $2225 minus the actual cost of the discs sold or payed out $1335 this leaves the TD $940 LEFT OVER FOR HIM.....AND THIS IS ONLY FROM THE ADVANCED DIVISION!

so i just need help with this.....why are the tds so stingy????




Any merit your original arguments may have had were just completely wiped out with your totally uncalled for personal attack and wild assumptions.

The most laughable assumptions being:
1 - TD's make money off the Ams.
2 - Thinking you know the actual event expenses.
3 - Stating TD's can get all the Am payout merchandise for 40% off retail prices.

You are apparently not familiar with DG tournament finances. The PDGA monitors the finances and very few TDs even keep a little let alone a lot of any net income from events. All have spent more time and most have spent more money out of pocket than they've ever made back.

Regarding percentage payouts, have you considered that this is why membership and the sport in general even for non-sanctioned events is growing faster than most other sports? Traditionalists who support conventional pro and "no payout" am structures hate to acknowledge this when it comes up. But frankly, I think other sports envy our growth and might grow faster at the recreational level if they could emulate our payout structure.

&lt;&lt;&lt; Oh my! Laughing at Phillip's Cialis post. Not b/c it was funny, not b/c it was a personal attack, but b/c if you knew Phillip you would say that he would NEVER compose or say something like that. He's such a quiet guy normally. Phillip, more advice from your friendly Hero, step away from the keyboard.

Do you know your punctuation is really annoying?????I can't even read stuff punctuated like this.......I'm so offended by your punctuation, I'm tempted to notify the moderators!!!!!





Do you know that i dont give a {edit}?????????????????????
do you know that youre a [censored] bag????????????????????
do you know that youre just an old man with senility problems?????????????????????????????????????????
do you know youre wife keeps calling me b/c of your E.D.???
SHE LOVES MY PUNCTUALITY, THIS WAY SHE DOESNT HAVE TO WAIT THE HOUR AND A HALF FOR YOUR CIALIS TO WORK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

HOW DO YOU LIKE MY PUNCTUATION NOW????????????

learn to speak when spoken to bruce.......it was a hard lesson for your wife to learn too!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :eek: :D:o

but atleast she finally got it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

but my original point was to have fewer am divisions! not for my benifit, but for the pdga's benifit. i will eventually go pro and stay pro, but in the mean time, it honestly seems that anyone who wins an am event is getting shafted! its not like they are adding more cash to the open field! if the were, i would understand, but they arent! the only way most TD'S
add cash is only if it was donated or they went out and fund raised! in my opinion, if they are going to screw the ams, then beef up the pro payout! lets show the ams a real reason to move up! if you look at a lot of the pro payouts in the D/FW AREA you would understand! ive never seen so many a/b tiers win under $350! i just feel bad for the traveling pros that come here and see our payouts, i honestly feel ashamed!

rob peter to pay paul if you have to, but dont rob the ams to pay yourself is what i am saying!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!

ams are how the td's make money anyway so less ams less money made! all im asking is to make the payouts fair! they can charge what they want for their plastic, but atleast give us the correct payout %! i think this is stemmed from the PDGA'S weak payout calculator! if there are 50 in advanced, $60 entry, pay the top 15 people! thats a prize pool of $3000
minus the pdga fees and park fees so lets just say that only $50 goes to the actual prize pool. thats $2500 to prize pool.

1.$500 (20%)
2.$375 (15%)
3.$250 (10%)
4.$200 (8%)
5.$175 (7%)
6.$150 (6%)
7.$125 (5%)
8.$100 (4%)
9.$87 (3.5%)
10.$75 (3%)
11.$62 (2.5%)
12.$50 (2%)
13.$38 (1.5%)
14.$25 (1%)
15.$13 (.5%)

thats a total of $2225 with $275 left to add to the open winner.
and PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE DONT FORGET that the actual prizes won are 40%cheaper for the TD'S . so in all actuality if you take the $2225 minus the actual cost of the discs sold or payed out $1335 this leaves the TD $940 LEFT OVER FOR HIM.....AND THIS IS ONLY FROM THE ADVANCED DIVISION!

so i just need help with this.....why are the tds so stingy????




Any merit your original arguments may have had were just completely wiped out with your totally uncalled for personal attack and wild assumptions.

The most laughable assumptions being:
1 - TD's make money off the Ams.
2 - Thinking you know the actual event expenses.
3 - Stating TD's can get all the Am payout merchandise for 40% off retail prices.



YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
1. TD'S DO MAKE MONEY OFF OF AMS!!!!!!!!!
WHY DO YOU THINK THEY PUT BS PRICES ON PLAYERS PACKS AND UP THEIR PRICES OF PLASTIC TO REDICULOUS PRICES????????

2. TO RUN AN A TIER ITS $5 A MAN AND $100 FOR SANCTIONING (THIS IS PER JASON AT PDGA 706 261 6342)

3. I DIDNT MEAN RETAIL PRICES I MEANT THE ACTUAL PRICE THEY CHARGE . THE TD'S IM TALKING ABOUT CHARGE $19 FOR STAR PLASTIC!!! AND THEY GET THEM FOR $11 A PIECE!!! (THIS IVE HEARD OUT OF THEIR MOUTHS)

SO DISCETTE IF MY MATH IS CORRECT IF YOU TAKE $2225 OF STAR PLASTIC AT $19 A PC. THATS 117 DISCS
WHICH 117 X $11 IS $1287 IN COST FOR THE DISCS! SO $2225 MINUS $1287 IS A PROFIT OF $938 AND THIS IS JUST USING MY PREVIOUS MATH OF 50 PLAYERS WITH $5O GOING TO THE PRIZE POOL AND THE OTHER $10 TO THE PDGA A COURSE FEES! $5 TO THE PDGA AND NORMALLY $2 TO THE CITY AND HEY $3 MORE DOLLARS A PERSON THE STINGY PUNKS CAN PUT IN THEIR POCKETS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! SO LISTEN LITTLE LADY PLEASE DONT SPEAK OUT OF TURN!!! BE A GOOD LITTLE GIRL AND BE SEEN AND NOT HEARD!!!!! SO WHATS $936 PROFIT OFF OF $2225 B/S COST??? THE ANSWER IS 42% SO DO YOUR MATH BEFORE YOU GET IN A DISCUSSION WITH ME!!!!

&lt;&lt;&lt; Oh my! Laughing at Phillip's Cialis post. Not b/c it was funny, not b/c it was a personal attack, but b/c if you knew Phillip you would say that he would NEVER compose or say something like that. He's such a quiet guy normally. Phillip, more advice from your friendly Hero, step away from the keyboard.



john, these people have got to be blind!!!! i am totally disgusted by the ignorance of some people! i am truely a nice guy but for people to tell me that this isnt an issue is rediculous! i know i am not going to be an am forever but wow, i just feel bad for the people who travel to go to disc golf tourneys and to see the payouts is a shock! i just wish we had more td's like jeremy rusco and greg browning around so we wouldnt have to put up with bs td's around here! and john you probably already know who im talking about!

Dude...chill out with the caps. No ones yelling at you...so stop yelling at them.

You assume that disc golf markets are the same and every club/group of locals has access to the same sponsorship opportunities as everyone else. The VPO fundraiser was a good prize payout...100%+. Not sure if there was a players pack...that would make the event payout even better. They obviously had some good sponsorship to payout that much AND raise money....kudos for them. I struggle to raise enough money to hopefully only take a few dollars out of everyones entry fee for our annual event. I have worked for 3 years on some sponsors that are just now starting to give back. Some markets just do not generate as much as other markets.

Its also proportional to the number of people activly seeking sponsorships. Bigger clubs, more contacts, more potential sponsorship. I can count on one hand how many of our locals helped with sponsorships for our annual event...and my first 2 fingers dont count. Not being bitter, just stating a fact.

To your point about greedy TD's...you talk like these guys are putting these mounds of profits in their pockets. Thats just not true. The profits go right back into disc golf...wheather its course improvements, buying more plastic to sell, etc. You think other clubs members would stand for it if they saw hundreds of dollars that should be in the club funds just not be there?

And your right....disc golf is the only sport that pays out so much. It has drawn many Am's too the sport as a result. Right or wrong, agree or disagree...its not going anywhere anytime soon. If some events prize payout is less then what you like, dont attend them. I encourage you to help behind the scenes with a local event...talk to the TD about the tournament finances. It may open your eyes to the truth.

Why not just TD yourself, and join us on the gravy boat?

Dude...chill out with the caps. No ones yelling at you...so stop yelling at them.

You assume that disc golf markets are the same and every club/group of locals has access to the same sponsorship opportunities as everyone else. The VPO fundraiser was a good prize payout...100%+. Not sure if there was a players pack...that would make the event payout even better. They obviously had some good sponsorship to payout that much AND raise money....kudos for them. I struggle to raise enough money to hopefully only take a few dollars out of everyones entry fee for our annual event. I have worked for 3 years on some sponsors that are just now starting to give back. Some markets just do not generate as much as other markets.

Its also proportional to the number of people activly seeking sponsorships. Bigger clubs, more contacts, more potential sponsorship. I can count on one hand how many of our locals helped with sponsorships for our annual event...and my first 2 fingers dont count. Not being bitter, just stating a fact.

To your point about greedy TD's...you talk like these guys are putting these mounds of profits in their pockets. Thats just not true. The profits go right back into disc golf...wheather its course improvements, buying more plastic to sell, etc. You think other clubs members would stand for it if they saw hundreds of dollars that should be in the club funds just not be there?

And your right....disc golf is the only sport that pays out so much. It has drawn many Am's too the sport as a result. Right or wrong, agree or disagree...its not going anywhere anytime soon. If some events prize payout is less then what you like, dont attend them. I encourage you to help behind the scenes with a local event...talk to the TD about the tournament finances. It may open your eyes to the truth.



sorry for the caps but, i am heated b/c the people that i am talking about, dont put the money back into any type of course fund! they are putting it in their pockets, or buying more discs at a discounted rate and re-selling them at the rediculous rate! (to put that in their pocket)

as far as the market goes i am talking about td's in the same area! so yes i understand if you live in west texas and have limited resources for sponsorship but this is d/fw im talking about!

i understand if the td wants to make money for their club or even course fund for improvements or baskets or whatever but thats just not the case! i wish it was, if that were the case i would be all for it! i honestly wouldn't mind if a td even made a little bit of $ for themselves but when the numbers add up the way they do....its just unfair to the players! i do want to run my own series of events but i dont have the time! so i guess what youre saying is right....if i was that mad, i should do something about it! but going back to the original issue!!

less divs equal higher payouts!!! i know i dont agree with a lot that the pdga is doing about this and i guess i understand their reasons but it just gets on my nerves that i have to win the basically get my money back!

In what other sport to Ams have the expectation of playing for free ("get my money back"), and having someone else foot the expenses and do all the work?

i just hate td's that try to make a living off of my entry!



Heaven forbid a TD has a financial incentive to continue providing a service.

Especially when many players have an <s>entitlement issue</s> similar, sweet demeanor like you.

I've been watching Tournaments for about 8 years now. I'll make you a little bet. You find me more than a couple of TDs makin' a "real" living at this and I'll send you a brand new Monarch. Real = more than $30,000 a year. I know of one or two that actually make a living TDing and running events here in Texas, and they live a pretty meager life.

What ever margin that guy can make, good on him/her.

In what other sport to Ams have the expectation of playing for free ("get my money back"), and having someone else foot the expenses and do all the work?



first off a $50 entry isnt free!!!!!

and when its a competition...ie tournament, ams can and will make $. hello...golf

i just hate td's that try to make a living off of my entry!



Heaven forbid a TD has a financial incentive to continue providing a service.

Especially when many players have an &lt;s&gt;entitlement issue&lt;/s&gt; similar, sweet demeanor like you.



you must be one of the dirty cheap scoundrels im talking about!!!!!

I've been watching Tournaments for about 8 years now. I'll make you a little bet. You find me more than a couple of TDs makin' a "real" living at this and I'll send you a brand new Monarch. Real = more than $30,000 a year. I know of one or two that actually make a living TDing and running events here in Texas, and they live a pretty meager life.

What ever margin that guy can make, good on him/her.



i know of a few in tx and these are the guys im talking about!
im not saying every tourney ive played in is this way, b/c thats not the case! i do enjoy playing in club sponsored events, they normally do very well for the clubs they represent. TAKE TOM LOWRY, JEREMY RUSCO, AND GREG BROWNING....these guys will make a little bit of money or they will make a lot....but the payouts never suffer!

SO LISTEN LITTLE LADY PLEASE DONT SPEAK OUT OF TURN!!! BE A GOOD LITTLE GIRL AND BE SEEN AND NOT HEARD!!!!!...DO YOUR MATH BEFORE YOU GET IN A DISCUSSION WITH ME!!!!




FYI, I have been the TD of more PDGA events than you have even played. I also know how to use the PDGA payout tables. You appear to be using false information to prop up a flawed argument.

Please answer the following:
If you paid out 20 players as recommended by the PDGA payout tables, do you still get the same "profit"?
What was the cost of the trophies &amp; did you deduct this from the available payout?
What was the cost of the event insurance &amp; did you deduct this from the available payout?
What was the actual cost of the player packs &amp; did you deduct the VALUE of the player packs from the payout?
Did the TD provide any meals or player packs to any of the volunteers who gave up their valuable personal time so you could play?
What was the actual cost of the park permits or shelter rental and did you deduct this from the payout or TD profit?



Just because a TD in DFW "might" be making a few dollars from an event(which you haven't actually proven), does not logically bolster your argument that the PDGA needs to stop offering divisions to players rated less than 900.

Discette, you might add to your list:

How many hours involved, and what is the value of the TD's time. (Hint: It's far more than what you see at registration and awards).

What is the minimum value the disc manufacturers require the TD to place on the merchandise?

A quote from Phillip Hall:


Do you know that i dont give a {edit}?????????????????????
do you know that youre a [censored] bag????????????????????
do you know that youre just an old man with senility problems?????????????????????????????????????????
do you know youre wife keeps calling me b/c of your E.D.???
SHE LOVES MY PUNCTUALITY, THIS WAY SHE DOESNT HAVE TO WAIT THE HOUR AND A HALF FOR YOUR CIALIS TO WORK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

HOW DO YOU LIKE MY PUNCTUATION NOW????????????

learn to speak when spoken to bruce.......it was a hard lesson for your wife to learn too!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

but atleast she finally got it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!






Another quote from Phillip Hall:

you must be one of the dirty cheap scoundrels im talking about!!!!!





Wow, two personal attacks on one thread!! Are you winning your argument yet?

In what other sport to Ams have the expectation of playing for free ("get my money back"), and having someone else foot the expenses and do all the work?



first off a $50 entry isnt free!!!!!

and when its a competition...ie tournament, ams can and will make $. hello...golf



If you say you should win your entry fee back---THAT's "free".

All of the amateur sports I've been involved with, from little league to adult leagues and tournaments, players and/or teams pay an entry fee just to have the event or league made available and to cover the expenses. Just a cost of participating. Maybe win a trophy, maybe not. Baseball, basketball, softball, tennis, running, etc.

I'm not a purist---I'm not offended when Ams win merchandise, even piles of merchandise. I don't even care if they win cash. But I wish we didn't have the entitlement mentality that they should win back as much or more than they pay in entry fees, or they're getting ripped off. It's a strange path along which our sport has evolved.

i know i dont agree with a lot that the pdga is doing about this


The PDGA has little to do with "this" (payouts &amp; number of divisions) at the local level. If TDs actually kept what they are allowed to at PDGA events, the payouts would be even lower than what you're already getting. Also, TDs have full control over how many and what divisions they offer. They could offer just one, two, or three divisions if they wish. However, TDs typically offer more divisions because players want them. If the PDGA put its foot down to reduce divisions, all that would happen is TDs would either not sanction or run the additional divisions as unsanctioned. Your fight is neither with the PDGA nor the TDs but the culture of the players themselves. Good luck with that.

i agree with david 100%. ams winning stuff does not offend me at all- i actually prefer it philosophically to giving everyone some blown up player's pack of stuff they may or may not want. i myself love to gamble so i'd rather play with something on the line.

i have td'ed hundreds of events from mini's to supertours and the only thing that makes me even think about going trophy only is whining punk-[censored] ams moaning about their supposed entitlement, even moreso if they don't have the nads to name names. going trophy only would save me a hell of a lot of work and wouldn't cost me a thing other than those massive profits i've been pocketing off of the ams. now that the condo in bimini is paid for i don't really need that anymore.

Did I just read back on this thread that Lyle is shooting 970 golf? Any credibility you had has ran away from you

SO LISTEN LITTLE LADY PLEASE DONT SPEAK OUT OF TURN!!! BE A GOOD LITTLE GIRL AND BE SEEN AND NOT HEARD!!!!!...DO YOUR MATH BEFORE YOU GET IN A DISCUSSION WITH ME!!!!




FYI, I have been the TD of more PDGA events than you have even played. I also know how to use the PDGA payout tables. You appear to be using false information to prop up a flawed argument.

Please answer the following:
If you paid out 20 players as recommended by the PDGA payout tables, do you still get the same "profit"?
What was the cost of the trophies &amp; did you deduct this from the available payout?
What was the cost of the event insurance &amp; did you deduct this from the available payout?
What was the actual cost of the player packs &amp; did you deduct the VALUE of the player packs from the payout?
Did the TD provide any meals or player packs to any of the volunteers who gave up their valuable personal time so you could play?
What was the actual cost of the park permits or shelter rental and did you deduct this from the payout or TD profit?



Just because a TD in DFW "might" be making a few dollars from an event(which you haven't actually proven), does not logically bolster your argument that the PDGA needs to stop offering divisions to players rated less than 900.




Discette, go and look at any of Mace's events. This year at Z boaz they canceled the $1000 skins and that money is supposedly going into this years, :DOh and that $1000 is supposed to be the added money for the Pro divisions in which only 4 out of 40 guys and 4 out of 4 women get to have a shot at.


I would ASSume that is who he is talking about.

Just because a TD in DFW "might" be making a few dollars from an event(which you haven't actually proven), does not logically bolster your argument that the PDGA needs to stop offering divisions to players rated less than 900.

[/QUOTE]

im not saying that players less than 900 shouldnt have a div!
if you read in my earlier post i said why not have only two am divs. am 1 (970-910) and am 2 (909-under)

and i am truely sorry for the personal attacks, but as you can see, i am upset with the things that are being done around here! not you, or the tourneys you have run! and my performa was based on only 50 advanced players. most tourneys here in dfw have 154 people! if you take the $60 entry and send $50 to prize pool, how can you not pay for insurance and $150 pavillion fees?? players packs i do understand so if you can only send $40 to the prize pool for the am divs it should still be a better payout than what we are seeing!!!

i will say this one more time...IM SORRY FOR THE PERSONAL ATTACKS....but when i see people defending the people who dont even understand the situation that some ams are being put in, it upsets me!

In what other sport to Ams have the expectation of playing for free ("get my money back"), and having someone else foot the expenses and do all the work?



first off a $50 entry isnt free!!!!!

and when its a competition...ie tournament, ams can and will make $. hello...golf



If you say you should win your entry fee back---THAT's "free".

All of the amateur sports I've been involved with, from little league to adult leagues and tournaments, players and/or teams pay an entry fee just to have the event or league made available and to cover the expenses. Just a cost of participating. Maybe win a trophy, maybe not. Baseball, basketball, softball, tennis, running, etc.

I'm not a purist---I'm not offended when Ams win merchandise, even piles of merchandise. I don't even care if they win cash. But I wish we didn't have the entitlement mentality that they should win back as much or more than they pay in entry fees, or they're getting ripped off. It's a strange path along which our sport has evolved.



well if you have ever played a mini, its just a legal form of gambling! thats all im saying. i dont have a sense of entitlement but a sense of dollars and cents! i do play tourneys for the thrill of winning! and yeah i know we could play for trophies only but the entry would be less! if you take what our entry fees are and see what we have the chance at in the end its not worth it!

i have played in softball tourneys for money, pool tourneys for money, golf tourneys for money, dart tourneys for money, and the entries are all relative to the possible outcome!!! disc golf on the other hand....doesnt have that great of a possible outcome!

In what other sport to Ams have the expectation of playing for free ("get my money back"), and having someone else foot the expenses and do all the work?



first off a $50 entry isnt free!!!!!

and when its a competition...ie tournament, ams can and will make $. hello...golf



If you say you should win your entry fee back---THAT's "free".

All of the amateur sports I've been involved with, from little league to adult leagues and tournaments, players and/or teams pay an entry fee just to have the event or league made available and to cover the expenses. Just a cost of participating. Maybe win a trophy, maybe not. Baseball, basketball, softball, tennis, running, etc.

I'm not a purist---I'm not offended when Ams win merchandise, even piles of merchandise. I don't even care if they win cash. But I wish we didn't have the entitlement mentality that they should win back as much or more than they pay in entry fees, or they're getting ripped off. It's a strange path along which our sport has evolved.



well if you have ever played a mini, its just a legal form of gambling! thats all im saying. i dont have a sense of entitlement but a sense of dollars and cents! i do play tourneys for the thrill of winning! and yeah i know we could play for trophies only but the entry would be less! if you take what our entry fees are and see what we have the chance at in the end its not worth it!

i have played in softball tourneys for money, pool tourneys for money, golf tourneys for money, dart tourneys for money, and the entries are all relative to the possible outcome!!! disc golf on the other hand....doesnt have that great of a possible outcome!





What getting $100 in plastic for beating 50mguys isn't enough? :DYour right something needs to happen. I think less divisions would mean more players per and thus better payout as well as deeper payout. The tournaments in Houston are a great example of why a lot of divisions can do more harm then good, 3 MPO, 3 MPM, 1 FPO, 1 FPM, and then there are all the AM divisions of which 3-4 are 1 or two people.


I think they had 17 divisions at an event with 75 players. Looks like almost everyone could have gotten a trophy.


If you are on an 18 hole course keep into MPO, MPG+, FPO, 935+, 900+, &lt;900. That way there will be more people in each division and they will actually have the right to be called divisions.

What getting $100 in plastic for beating 50mguys isn't enough? :DYour right something needs to happen. I think less divisions would mean more players per and thus better payout as well as deeper payout. The tournaments in Houston are a great example of why a lot of divisions can do more harm then good, 3 MPO, 3 MPM, 1 FPO, 1 FPM, and then there are all the AM divisions of which 3-4 are 1 or two people.


I think they had 17 divisions at an event with 75 players. Looks like almost everyone could have gotten a trophy.


If you are on an 18 hole course keep into MPO, MPG+, FPO, 935+, 900+, &lt;900. That way there will be more people in each division and they will actually have the right to be called divisions.

[/QUOTE]

i am just glad someone understands me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

they all said in an earlier thread that i sounded like you with my legitimate questions and concerns(censored)

well it seems like the only ones that are arguing are the td's themselves!!!

What getting $100 in plastic for beating 50mguys isn't enough? :DYour right something needs to happen. I think less divisions would mean more players per and thus better payout as well as deeper payout. The tournaments in Houston are a great example of why a lot of divisions can do more harm then good, 3 MPO, 3 MPM, 1 FPO, 1 FPM, and then there are all the AM divisions of which 3-4 are 1 or two people.


I think they had 17 divisions at an event with 75 players. Looks like almost everyone could have gotten a trophy.


If you are on an 18 hole course keep into MPO, MPG+, FPO, 935+, 900+, &lt;900. That way there will be more people in each division and they will actually have the right to be called divisions.



i am just glad someone understands me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

they all said in an earlier thread that i sounded like you with my legitimate questions and concerns(censored)

well it seems like the only ones that are arguing are the td's themselves!!!

[/QUOTE]

You sound suspiciously like an idiot.

See Phil,

I told you you'd like Matt...

I've been watching Tournaments for about 8 years now. I'll make you a little bet. You find me more than a couple of TDs makin' a "real" living at this and I'll send you a brand new Monarch. Real = more than $30,000 a year. I know of one or two that actually make a living TDing and running events here in Texas, and they live a pretty meager life.

What ever margin that guy can make, good on him/her.



i know of a few in tx and these are the guys im talking about!
im not saying every tourney ive played in is this way, b/c thats not the case! i do enjoy playing in club sponsored events, they normally do very well for the clubs they represent. TAKE TOM LOWRY, JEREMY RUSCO, AND GREG BROWNING....these guys will make a little bit of money or they will make a lot....but the payouts never suffer!



I'm pretty confident you have no idea what they make or if they make anything. Until you've watched someone do this you can't know what a loss maker a tournament is.

You also didn't address my point, are those guys making any real money? You're slashing and burning guys who make little or nothing and playing up guys who are probably taking it in the shorts for the local club. I think Tony stated it best, you've got a nice sense of entitlement....

BTW - trash talking will get you banned here, but frankly, trash talking Discette who knows more about disc golf than most players do when she's sleeping, is just plain - well I'll let others decide what it is.

well it seems like the only ones that are arguing are the td's themselves!!!



More specifically, the TDs who are doing hundreds of hours of volunteer work, not pocketing a dime, and a little resentful when depicted as selfish?

Okay, to be fair---you said you're only talking about certain TDs, not us. And I agree with you in part; I'd prefer fewer division, and I'd prefer the 50% payout, which dilutes the top prizes, be reduced to about the top 30%.

I just want to help you bolster your argument with facts, not conjecture. Among these are:

* Many TDs don't make a dime. Perhaps it's regional, but none of the 30 or so tournaments I've run or assisted made any money for the TD.....they broke even, lost money, or made money for the local club to put into the course.

* There are a lot more expenses than just payouts.

* Disc values aren't grossly inflated. At least in our case, we sign a contract with the manufacturer to value them as MSRP.

* Your statement that fewer divisions and resulting higher payouts would increase the number of players must be balanced against the fact that increasing the divisions and reducing the payouts HAS increased the number of players.

Sorry, but I have a default knee-jerk reaction to ask people to step up and demonstrate---TD yourself, show you're right. You can limit divisions and have huge fields and still be sanctioned. Or you can go non-sanctioned, set the division breaks anywhere you want, limit the payout to the top 25%, and have your Am winners take home a bundle. (Which, by the way, I've done too).

Just keep in mind Chuck's comment that it's the culture you must change. TDs offer all these divisions and flat payouts because, by and large, this is what disc golfers want. Not what I want. Maybe not what the TDs want. But what the disc golfers who vote with their entry fees, seem to want.

Did I just read back on this thread that Lyle is shooting 970 golf? Any credibility you had has ran away from you



Matt you have no idea what I shoot in practice rounds since you don't play with me and haven't seen me play in well over two years. How that would be a testament to my credibility escapes me? On the other hand, Phillip made a judgment of my lack of support of his position based on my rating. He was mistaken in his notion that I took the position I did because it was in my best interest to do so (i.e. because I have a low rating). The point I was making was that he might be wrong in that position. I noticed that you completely missed that...

On the other hand, that your self interest is alive and kicking has never been doubted... Now what was it that Rhett and others said about the length of time you stayed Am before going Pro? Talk about credibility issues...

Did I just read back on this thread that Lyle is shooting 970 golf? Any credibility you had has ran away from you



Matt you have no idea what I shoot in practice rounds since you don't play with me and haven't seen me play in well over two years. How that would be a testament to my credibility escapes me? On the other hand, Phillip made a judgment of my lack of support of his position based on my rating. He was mistaken in his notion that I took the position I did because it was in my best interest to do so (i.e. because I have a low rating). The point I was making was that he might be wrong in that position. I noticed that you completely missed that...

On the other hand, that your self interest is alive and kicking has never been doubted... Now what was it that Rhett and others said about the length of time you stayed Am before going Pro? Talk about credibility issues...




Heck I should still just play Am and sell baskets. I didn't think the system was right then but why wouldn't I take advantage of the system we have if I could?


If anything I am talking from experience of how the current system doesn't encourage players to move up because they can just rack it up in their division which is just one of 25.

i just hate td's that try to make a living off of my entry!

im still down for the pro2 div! paying cash!!!!!!!



Goodness, a TD is actually taking compensation from the players for services provided? Oh dear!!

Good for the TD I say. I think that more TDs, be it clubs or individuals, taking compensation for services provided would be a great step in legitimizing the sport. I also think that in the long run we will get bigger and better tournaments, and better payouts with it, when TDs have incentive beyond feel good well done volunteer effort. Less TD burnout, more club money to help improve or add courses and so on are among the other benefits. These far exceed placing another $50 of merch in an Ams pocket IMO.

Sorry, but I can't find fault in anyone running a tournament who takes the route of expecting payback for all of the hours put in. In fact, I hope more start doing it. We may have a true pro tour one day that has payouts that players can make a living off of. But expect that this tour will also have promoters and other staff who are making a living.

Tiger Woods and the other players aren't the only people getting paid at PGA events. We have a long way to go beyond player purse levels to get to the point of a true pro tour. The notion that everyone should work for free so players can get more stuff isn't healthy in the long run.

i just hate td's that try to make a living off of my entry!

im still down for the pro2 div! paying cash!!!!!!!



Goodness, a TD is actually taking compensation from the players for services provided? Oh dear!!

Good for the TD I say. I think that more TDs, be it clubs or individuals, taking compensation for services provided would be a great step in legitimizing the sport. I also think that in the long run we will get bigger and better tournaments, and better payouts with it, when TDs have incentive beyond feel good well done volunteer effort. Less TD burnout, more club money to help improve or add courses and so on are among the other benefits. These far exceed placing another $50 of merch in an Ams pocket IMO.

Sorry, but I can't find fault in anyone running a tournament who takes the route of expecting payback for all of the hours put in. In fact, I hope more start doing it. We may have a true pro tour one day that has payouts that players can make a living off of. But expect that this tour will also have promoters and other staff who are making a living.

Tiger Woods and the other players aren't the only people getting paid at PGA events. We have a long way to go beyond player purse levels to get to the point of a true pro tour. The notion that everyone should work for free so players can get more stuff isn't healthy in the long run.




If the TD throws a well run fun event with good payout then heck yea they should make something but they shouldn't make the tournament crappy so they can make a buck.

If the TD throws a well run fun event with good payout then heck yea they should make something but they shouldn't make the tournament crappy so they can make a buck.



That seems to illustrate the issue very well. For some reason, if a TD doesn't pay out all of the entry fees in the form of purse and swag, the tournament is considered 'crappy'. No talk of how nice the course looked, how well the tournament was run, the great job of the staff behind the scenes providing player amenities and so on. Instead a direct tie in to the relationship between fees taken in vs. prizes paid out. And if the players with their mental slide rules conclude that the payout isn't equal to or better than their entry fees, then the tournament was 'crappy'.

Small wonder TDs burn out at the rate they do. I can think of no other major sport that operates with this entitlement mentality. Perhaps it would be of benefit if more TDs would take the approach that the reward for their time and efforts in the past has been rather 'crappy'.

Well when you play a B-tier that pays out less than it took in for PRO I won't ever consider that a good event no matter how the course looks.

Well when you play a B-tier that pays out less than it took in for PRO I won't ever consider that a good event no matter how the course looks.


Looks like you wouldn't be too happy playing the regular events in Japan then with total payout at 15%-20% of entry fees.

Well when you play a B-tier that pays out less than it took in for PRO I won't ever consider that a good event no matter how the course looks.


Looks like you wouldn't be too happy playing the regular events in Japan then with total payout at 15%-20% of entry fees.




Your right I wouldn't!

Well when you play a B-tier that pays out less than it took in for PRO I won't ever consider that a good event no matter how the course looks.

You played that one too? :D

Well when you play a B-tier that pays out less than it took in for PRO I won't ever consider that a good event no matter how the course looks.

You played that one too? :D




Yea but not this year and nothing seemed to change,

well it seems like the only ones that are arguing are the td's themselves!!!



More specifically, the TDs who are doing hundreds of hours of volunteer work, not pocketing a dime, and a little resentful when depicted as selfish?

Okay, to be fair---you said you're only talking about certain TDs, not us. And I agree with you in part; I'd prefer fewer division, and I'd prefer the 50% payout, which dilutes the top prizes, be reduced to about the top 30%.

I just want to help you bolster your argument with facts, not conjecture. Among these are:

* Many TDs don't make a dime. Perhaps it's regional, but none of the 30 or so tournaments I've run or assisted made any money for the TD.....they broke even, lost money, or made money for the local club to put into the course.

* There are a lot more expenses than just payouts.

* Disc values aren't grossly inflated. At least in our case, we sign a contract with the manufacturer to value them as MSRP.

* Your statement that fewer divisions and resulting higher payouts would increase the number of players must be balanced against the fact that increasing the divisions and reducing the payouts HAS increased the number of players.

Sorry, but I have a default knee-jerk reaction to ask people to step up and demonstrate---TD yourself, show you're right. You can limit divisions and have huge fields and still be sanctioned. Or you can go non-sanctioned, set the division breaks anywhere you want, limit the payout to the top 25%, and have your Am winners take home a bundle. (Which, by the way, I've done too).

Just keep in mind Chuck's comment that it's the culture you must change. TDs offer all these divisions and flat payouts because, by and large, this is what disc golfers want. Not what I want. Maybe not what the TDs want. But what the disc golfers who vote with their entry fees, seem to want.



and i dont want the GREAT TD'S to think i am talking about them!!!! if you are that kind of guy, then none of this pertains to you! by the sound of it, you are the kind of td that i would love to have around here! i have no problem when money is taken from the tourney to benifit disc golf as a whole! ie. course improvement, course installment, club funds, any of the things that will help disc golf as a whole! but when tds (not you or discette or any other decent td) takes money to better their living situation, it annoys me!

You still don't get it. You're equating a great TD or event with great payouts. A TD who actually earns what they should from an event might produce a great event by objective standards and the payouts would be almost nothing. That's the way it is in several places outside th U.S. such as Japan with great events and poor payouts other than the Japan Open. They have rewards relative to effort more in balance and our TDs are starting to learn from that.

i think that the problem alot of people have is that the local tournaments are still grass roots efforts, what i mean is that the local club and members do all the work voluntarily and get everything done because they want the event to happen. its hard to separate in your mind the money and the event.
and when someone who is part of a club that is already struggling to make things happen, takes money for themselves, its hard for some people to understand. im not taking a stance either way, because i havent been around long enough to make that decision fully.

here is a hypothetical. perhaps it would be easier to swallow smaller payouts and a cut of the money going to the td IF...

say the PDGA sent out a person to run the tournament, this pdga official comes to your course, and runs your tournament. the purpose of this person is to make your event a great one, and he/she is compensated for such action. this person would then have no affiliation to your local club. this person would be then compensated for traveling and taking the time to run your event. then, i think that most wouldnt have a problem with someone taking money. but the truth of the matter is, most to all of the people running events are local members, or club officials, that are trying to grow the sport and are ambassadors for our very young sport that is trying its best to grow.

when someone in this position takes money that would normally make the event seem 'better' (i know that money shouldnt equate a value judgement, but face it.. it does to most) then it seems that this person is no longer someone who wants to volunteer and help and grow the sport and make disc golf known. it looks like they think their time is worth more than simply promoting disc golf, they decide that they also should be paid in money.
and on some levels i agree, some events i have gone to exemplify the type of event that the td should be compensated for his/her work, but i also know that those tds, ( the great ones that i have encountered) are the type that would never take it for themselves, they put it back where they can. and even if they wanted to, they acknowledge that there is no way they could have done it alone, and would have to pay half the club members that did leg work as well.

so, to conclude. perhaps some do earn the right to take money for their time. but in a system and a sport where events are considered based on economics and return value, partially because events are getting more expensive, money and payout will always matter. there are more and more events popping up all the time, and when you have two courses that are just as good, two crowds that are just as good, and two distances that are just the same, some are going to pick the event that has the best payout value to what they pay in. thats the way of the world, especially since we live in america.

You still don't get it. You're equating a great TD or event with great payouts. A TD who actually earns what they should from an event might produce a great event by objective standards and the payouts would be almost nothing. That's the way it is in several places outside th U.S. such as Japan with great events and poor payouts other than the Japan Open. They have rewards relative to effort more in balance and our TDs are starting to learn from that.



i am equating a great td with a great tourney!!!

i am not equating a great tourney to great payouts.

my idea of a great tourney.....

$40-$50 entry
$10 players pack(dx disc, or towel and tshirt)
a decent payout relative to # of players
pick your plastic(i know this isnt always possible)
dont OVER charge your plastic!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
no 30 min players meeting
payout as soon as possible(not 10pm)
ring of fire
ctp contests
and lots of fun!!!

my idea of a bad tourney/td

$55-$65 entry for am/ btier
$30 players pack (tshirt/$10 disc coupon)
horrible payout(beat 30 people and get $110 payout)
$18-$19 star $16 champ plastic
looooong players meetings
no ctps any extra games(even if they cost extra to enter)
wait until the final 9 is done to get payout

sorry if im asking for a lot here and i dont really feel like i have a sense of entitlement....maybe im wrong! maybe what some td's are doing is WAY TOO MUCH FOR THE GAME! but if some td's are able to do it then why cant others is my question!!! i really dont need plastic! at all!!! i have bins full of them at the house, i have 2 baskets and plenty of swag!

i buy a lot of my plastic and i have won my fair share as well but its almost not worth it to play some tourneys! the reason i started playing disc golf was simple....i was raised playing golf and after i got out of school and was no longer allowed to play at my parents c.c. it got expensive!!!! so i came to dg....it was free to play and another thing i could go O.C.D. about! so i joined the pdga and started playing tourneys!!! i wasnt very good and didnt expect to cash but when i started cashing it got old.....REAL QUICK! i have plenty of plastic and im not one of the guys who re-sells it on ebay, i either give it away to friends or donate it to ctp at minis or tourneys, but its not always about my benifit! its about the overall odds of winning vs. the payoff!

$10 players pack(dx disc, or towel and tshirt)




I just purchased custom screened tourney tee-shirts locally for an event for $9.00 (non-white, heavyweight cotton, printed on two sides, XXL cost extra). If I added a custom stamped DX disc to the mix, just the cost alone to me would be over $13.00 - and you expect me to value these items that cost me $13.00 wholesale for $10.00 retail????

No wonder you think payouts suck, you have no idea of the real cost of items.


I would think a reasonable value for these two items would be $23.00 - $15.00 for the shirt and $8.00 for the disc (even though MSRP is $8.99).

Would you agree or disagree with this value and why?

he said 'or' not 'and'

i think that the problem alot of people have is that the local tournaments are still grass roots efforts, what i mean is that the local club and members do all the work voluntarily and get everything done because they want the event to happen. its hard to separate in your mind the money and the event.
and when someone who is part of a club that is already struggling to make things happen, takes money for themselves, its hard for some people to understand. im not taking a stance either way, because i havent been around long enough to make that decision fully.

here is a hypothetical. perhaps it would be easier to swallow smaller payouts and a cut of the money going to the td IF...

say the PDGA sent out a person to run the tournament, this pdga official comes to your course, and runs your tournament. the purpose of this person is to make your event a great one, and he/she is compensated for such action. this person would then have no affiliation to your local club. this person would be then compensated for traveling and taking the time to run your event. then, i think that most wouldnt have a problem with someone taking money. but the truth of the matter is, most to all of the people running events are local members, or club officials, that are trying to grow the sport and are ambassadors for our very young sport that is trying its best to grow.

when someone in this position takes money that would normally make the event seem 'better' (i know that money shouldnt equate a value judgement, but face it.. it does to most) then it seems that this person is no longer someone who wants to volunteer and help and grow the sport and make disc golf known. it looks like they think their time is worth more than simply promoting disc golf, they decide that they also should be paid in money.
and on some levels i agree, some events i have gone to exemplify the type of event that the td should be compensated for his/her work, but i also know that those tds, ( the great ones that i have encountered) are the type that would never take it for themselves, they put it back where they can. and even if they wanted to, they acknowledge that there is no way they could have done it alone, and would have to pay half the club members that did leg work as well.

so, to conclude. perhaps some do earn the right to take money for their time. but in a system and a sport where events are considered based on economics and return value, partially because events are getting more expensive, money and payout will always matter. there are more and more events popping up all the time, and when you have two courses that are just as good, two crowds that are just as good, and two distances that are just the same, some are going to pick the event that has the best payout value to what they pay in. thats the way of the world, especially since we live in america.



i know i am on the losing end of this argument as many of you have pointed out but when people(players) understand what the legitimate concerns are...why wont you(td's) atleast understand it as a concern and not a sense of entitlement!

i could debate this for hours, days, even weeks, but its not like anything is going to get done about it! as long as the pdga has nothing to do with the people who actually run these tourneys, the sport will continue to suffer(in some areas) ! not all people have to encounter such td's, but some of us do! and if the pdga wont govern such td's then we(the players) are the ones who have to pay the price!

and i know there are certain guidelines for td's, but if these td's are going by the guidelines, something needs to be said about the guidelines!

i know this is a capitalist economy, but when you have to take someone's love of a great game and turn it into profits for yourself(not your club or course) that is not cool. as simple minded as that sounds, this game is based upon a lot of peoples want to share this game!!!!i dont think most people mind(even myself) if a td wants to skim $200-$300 off of the top to compensate for the weekend but anything more than that is rediculous! a national tour or major i would understand more, but wow if you need money that bad you might need to find a new source of income like the rest of us(get a real job)

he said 'or' not 'and'



thanks for pointing that out cuz i was about to go ballistic!!!!

discette im not attacking you!!!! (atleast any longer) i am sorry for being so rude in earlier posts but if you would just read what i wrote and actually think before you reply, then you would understand me a little more! i dont expect both!!!

$10 players pack(dx disc, or towel and tshirt)




I just purchased custom screened tourney tee-shirts locally for an event for $9.00 (non-white, heavyweight cotton, printed on two sides, XXL cost extra). If I added a custom stamped DX disc to the mix, just the cost alone to me would be over $13.00 - and you expect me to value these items that cost me $13.00 wholesale for $10.00 retail????

No wonder you think payouts suck, you have no idea of the real cost of items.


I would think a reasonable value for these two items would be $23.00 - $15.00 for the shirt and $8.00 for the disc (even though MSRP is $8.99).

Would you agree or disagree with this value and why?



if you gave me a t-shirt and a dx disc, that would be worth $16-$20 depending on quality of tshirt but even you agree that a tshirt isnt worth $20 right????

Here are the basic finances from some international events that were included in the most recent ratings update. Both our U.S. ams and pros have it pretty good regarding payouts. Some of the entry fees look strange due to currency conversion.

Dutch Open
$2548= 65 pros x $39.2 entry fee
$700 = Pro Cash Payout
$490 = Pro Player Packs
$255 = 14 Ams x $18.2 entry fee
$175 = Am Payout Value

Maigolfen (Norway)
$1920 = 32 pros x $60 entry fee
$540 = Pro Cash Payout
$700 = Pro Player Packs
$1820 = 37 Ams x $49
$1300 = Am Payout Value

Saga Open (Japan)
$1837 = 33 pros x $56.67 entry fee
$363 = Pro Cash Payout
$139 = 5 Ams x $27.8
$0 = Am Payout Value

I would suspect that in Japan they have high course use fees. I don't know about Holland or Norway.

I would suspect that in Japan they have high course use fees.


That is exactly the case. However, why is it OK to pay people for the property rental and temporary courses setup and yet not pay the people who develop, groom and prep the courses for our events? Even though many courses are on public property, most park departments aren't out there doing weed whipping, brush clearing, marking OB, putting out signs and some don't even do the mowing.

the counter argument is, if in japan they didnt have to pay the high course use fees, should they just keep the money anyway? i think the answer is no, yea if we HAVE to pay fees in order to make the event happen, we will. if we dont have to,... well, you get the picture.

They would, and already do, keep some of that money. Hero Discs who runs many of the events is a well run, profitable business although all indications are that events are still a write-off for promotional benefit. He also lost big bucks on running the Japan Open.

so like you say, even the big dogs are losing money on running events, so its not surprising that people find it hard to take when the little guy takes money for running one.

There's a difference when the U.S. guidelines require over 100% payout. So the "little guy" many times pays cash out of his pocket to meet the minimums whereas you can see that 100% payout overseas would be like hitting the jackpot for the players because the promoters aren't foolish enough to lose money out-of-pocket. They'll maybe just get reimbursed for less time than actually expended.

... but even you agree that a tshirt isnt worth $20 right????


This point is moot because its a relative scale as there are VAST factors to the worth of all t-shirts - is it a multi-color screenprint? how many colors in the process? is it dry-fit? is it polyester blend? is it both? do they charge extra for sizes XL and beyond? To say you handed back a t-shirt to a TD because they valued it at $20 sounds extremely petty on your part.

Since you're talking highly-presumptive and likely erroneous hypotheticals in a thread where the vast majority of posters are experienced TDs, just how many tournies have you run exactly?

If the answer is none, please refrain from further posting until you've walked in the shoes.


Anyhow, could someone with mod rights please split all this petty OT garbage into another thread?

There's a difference when the U.S. guidelines require over 100% payout. So the "little guy" many times pays cash out of his pocket to meet the minimums whereas you can see that 100% payout overseas would be like hitting the jackpot for the players because the promoters aren't foolish enough to lose money out-of-pocket. They'll maybe just get reimbursed for less time than actually expended.



i dont think its fair that you compare us to other countries!
we are the(sense of entitlement inserted) united states of america!!!!!

i am ok with people making a little bit of money! if we had to RENT our facilities i wouldnt be expecting anything! but no, we have whats called a parks and recreation department!

here at my home course (lester lorch park) in cedar hill tx our parks and rec guys are awesome!!! dynamic discs is throwing a tourney here this saturday, so 3 of us went for the work day and a lot of it was already done! all we had to do was a little bit of manicuring and putting 2 more sleeves in for additional basket placements! so yeah we are the most fortunate country in the world! i dont mind....do you chuck??? if it werent for this great nation, we prob could not even be having this conversation!

if you gave me a t-shirt and a dx disc, that would be worth $16-$20 depending on quality of tshirt




Players pack with tee-shirt and DX disc: $20.00 minimum value!! Especially if the disc and shirt carry a custom design.



...but even you agree that a tshirt isnt worth $20 right????







I do not agree. For you to assume a shirt is only worth $15.00 assumes the custom tee-shirt can be purchased locally for that price. Did you know colored t-shirts cost more than white t-shirts? Do you know the wholesale cost of the different fabrics and weights of shirts? Are you aware that silkscreen charges increase when you print on a colored shirt?


I DO read what you post and you continue to post incorrect information about tournament expenses and the value of merchandise. Every event is different. Every TD has access to different pricing from different vendors.



Please answer:

How would forcing TD's to give all "profits" back to event participants (or the club or the park) help the current divisional structure?

Last question: since you apparently do not agree that TD's should be allowed to make a profit using our capitalist economic model, which economic model would you prefer?

... but even you agree that a tshirt isnt worth $20 right????


This point is moot because its a relative scale as there are VAST factors to the worth of all t-shirts - is it a multi-color screenprint? how many colors in the process? is it dry-fit? is it polyester blend? is it both? do they charge extra for sizes XL and beyond? To say you handed back a t-shirt to a TD because they valued it at $20 sounds extremely petty on your part.

Since you're talking highly-presumptive and likely erroneous hypotheticals in a thread where the vast majority of posters are experienced TDs, just how many tournies have you run exactly?

If the answer is none, please refrain from further posting until you've walked in the shoes.


Anyhow, could someone with mod rights please split all this petty OT garbage into another thread?



wow alabama boy!!!!

if you would take the time to read my previous post's you would know that i havent run a tourney, and as a matter of a fact it was a cotton tshirt one color(black) it was a size large!

if it were dryfit i wouldnt disagree!!!!

also if you read any of my original posts, and how we actually got on this topic is i believe there should be less div's !!!!!!

pro(970+)
am1(900-969)
am2(899-under)

gender based divs as well
age based divs as well

not....
pro
adv
int
rec
nov

not to mention the age based and gender based
masters
adv masters
grandmasters
senior grandmasters
etc...

so jebb! please read before speaking!

I've been reading. I was trying to tell you in a rather polite way that you sound ignorant.

if you gave me a t-shirt and a dx disc, that would be worth $16-$20 depending on quality of tshirt




Players pack with tee-shirt and DX disc: $20.00 minimum value!! Especially if the disc and shirt carry a custom design.



...but even you agree that a tshirt isnt worth $20 right????







I do not agree. For you to assume a shirt is only worth $15.00 assumes the custom tee-shirt can be purchased locally for that price. Did you know colored t-shirts cost more than white t-shirts? Do you know the wholesale cost of the different fabrics and weights of shirts? Are you aware that silkscreen charges increase when you print on a colored shirt?


I DO read what you post and you continue to post incorrect information about tournament expenses and the value of merchandise. Every event is different. Every TD has access to different pricing from different vendors.



Please answer:

How would forcing TD's to give all "profits" back to event participants (or the club or the park) help the current divisional structure?

Last question: since you apparently do not agree that TD's should be allowed to make a profit using our capitalist economic model, which economic model would you prefer?



if you think i am talking about your tourneys then you obviously dont read! my best friends dad owns his own t-shirt company! (which i worked at for 3yrs) so i do know what the different prices are! i have never seen a $20 t-shirt! not unless its a name brand that you are paying for! but if you expect me to agree with 1 td wants to charge $20 for a thin cotton 1 color t-shirt, you are crazy!!!!!

answer 1: i dont think the td taking money that has anything to do with the past, current, or future div structure!!!!

but them taking money from our payout is one of the issues on why i think we need less divs! (to increase the $ a winner can win) its like in poker POT ODDS!!!!!

answer 2: please refer to page 17 post # 4 (i do agree that tds should be allowed to make some money, but not a lot!!!)

I've been reading. I was trying to tell you in a rather polite way that you sound ignorant.



well please be more specific! i understand small words only!
i understand that not all people will agree with me!!!! thats ok with me!!!! i just want to speak for ams that wont speak for themselves!

I've been reading. I was trying to tell you in a rather polite way that you sound ignorant.




Give up!

I've been reading. I was trying to tell you in a rather polite way that you sound ignorant.




Give up!

im sure thats what you would want me to do!!!!

NO THANKS!

I've been reading what's being said here and I just had to chime in. Not all amature disc golfers think the way that you do Phillip. I would, and have paid lots of money to go to many tournaments. The majority of which I haven't even played in myself. (I've got an awesome little Jr.that I caddy for) And I will continue to do so. I've been to tourneys where every player was treated like royalty, and I've been to major tourneys that tds treat there players like a paycheck. In my personal opinion, it is not what you receive in the players pack or what you recieve as payout. To me what matters is if it's a well run tourney, did everyone have a good time, was lunch provided, was the course cool, was the td courteous, were the players cool, and more importantly, did we do well? How everyone perceives what they should get in players packs or what they should get as payout is different for everyone. I just think that your views are the views of so few people that is why your one of the only ones ranting on this thread. Chill out man! Go play a round and try to remember that this is supposed to be fun. If you can't do that then I suggest you go back to playing ball golf.
And by the way, I have gone to one of Suzettes tourneys and found it to be one of the best run tourneys I have been to ever!Players packs were awesome, the course was awesome, the players were awesome, the payout was awesome, everything was well worth me driving 13 hours for my son to play, and I will do it again this year. By the way Suzette when will the flyer be out for So. Cal Championships? Looking forward to another great time!!!
p.s. Phillip I do have to agree that you really don't have grounds to speak up until you have run an event of your own. I just started running tourneys and I have to say it is one of the most underappreciated things you can do. You'll on understand when you do!

I've been reading what's being said here and I just had to chime in. Not all amature disc golfers think the way that you do Phillip. I would, and have paid lots of money to go to many tournaments. The majority of which I haven't even played in myself. (I've got an awesome little Jr.that I caddy for) And I will continue to do so. I've been to tourneys where every player was treated like royalty, and I've been to major tourneys that tds treat there players like a paycheck. In my personal opinion, it is not what you receive in the players pack or what you recieve as payout. To me what matters is if it's a well run tourney, did everyone have a good time, was lunch provided, was the course cool, was the td courteous, were the players cool, and more importantly, did we do well? How everyone perceives what they should get in players packs or what they should get as payout is different for everyone. I just think that your views are the views of so few people that is why your one of the only ones ranting on this thread. Chill out man! Go play a round and try to remember that this is supposed to be fun. If you can't do that then I suggest you go back to playing ball golf.
And by the way, I have gone to one of Suzettes tourneys and found it to be one of the best run tourneys I have been to ever!Players packs were awesome, the course was awesome, the players were awesome, the payout was awesome, everything was well worth me driving 13 hours for my son to play, and I will do it again this year. By the way Suzette when will the flyer be out for So. Cal Championships? Looking forward to another great time!!!
p.s. Phillip I do have to agree that you really don't have grounds to speak up until you have run an event of your own. I just started running tourneys and I have to say it is one of the most underappreciated things you can do. You'll on understand when you do!




I think the answer to thise questions may be no. Payout isn't always the deciding factor, in fact I go based just as much on the course and the tournament culture of the event. The fact is there are some TDs around that run less than mediocre events yet charge a pretty penny to enter.

if we had to RENT our facilities i wouldnt be expecting anything! but no, we have whats called a parks and recreation department!





Up here, it often costs us to close the public disc golf course for a private tourrnament. $400 a day is not unheard of. Done through the Park and Rec.

Wonder why the Park and Rec isn't running disc golf leagues or tournaments, unlike what they often do for softball and other sports? Re-read some of your posts for the answer.

answer 1: i dont think the td taking money that has anything to do with the past, current, or future div structure!!!!

but them taking money from our payout is one of the issues on why i think we need less divs! (to increase the $ a winner can win) its like in poker POT ODDS!!!!!

answer 2: please refer to page 17 post # 4 (i do agree that tds should be allowed to make some money, but not a lot!!!)



Your answer #1 seems like a contradiction. Does a TD taking compensation for their efforts have anything to do with division structure or not?

Concerning answer #2, what in your mind is a proper amount that a TD should make? If it is a C Tier or better, figure that the TD has at least 100 hours in, let alone the time of the volunteers. So, is $5 an hour acceptable? $10 an hour? If a TD runs a quick hit tournament and works on it for 20 hours or so, is it out of line for that TD to take $200 for the effort? Minimum wage would demand over $100, and these people obviously are doing a more skilled job than minimum wage.

As for TDs 'taking money from our payout', how about consider that TDs are taking compensation from your entry fees. Fees you freely gave up when you made the consumer choice to purchase your entry. Fees that may partially go to payout, that may partially go to pay the bills, and may partially go to the TD or staff to compensate for the product they provided you.

Why is it so taboo in the disc golf culture to have to pay for a service provided? How long does a TD have to keep working for free under the guise of 'its good for the sport' while they watch people who have done nearly nothing walk off with a load of stuff and grumbling that they didn't get more?

There is one point that comes up often in these discussions and rings true. If enough people are willing to TD tournaments without compensation or at a loss, then why would players pay for what they are currently getting for free?

People here who say that they wouldn't play in Japan aren't being realistic. If they lived there, the tournament payout percentage would be what was expected, and no one would be surprised at awards time. There would be no expectation of 100% payout. Here, we have created this environment by trying to grow the sport and trying to have bigger and bigger events. The TD payback was a job well done and maybe an ego thing of pulling off the largest purse in the area. But that only goes so far. Perhaps only as far as we are today, no further.

At least in Poker, it's understood that the house takes a cut.

if we had to RENT our facilities i wouldnt be expecting anything! but no, we have whats called a parks and recreation department!




Maybe where you live parks are free, but the So Cal Championships pays over $1,000 in fees to LA County Parks.

I've been reading what's being said here and I just had to chime in. Not all amature disc golfers think the way that you do Phillip. I would, and have paid lots of money to go to many tournaments. The majority of which I haven't even played in myself. (I've got an awesome little Jr.that I caddy for) And I will continue to do so. I've been to tourneys where every player was treated like royalty, and I've been to major tourneys that tds treat there players like a paycheck. In my personal opinion, it is not what you receive in the players pack or what you recieve as payout. To me what matters is if it's a well run tourney, did everyone have a good time, was lunch provided, was the course cool, was the td courteous, were the players cool, and more importantly, did we do well? How everyone perceives what they should get in players packs or what they should get as payout is different for everyone. I just think that your views are the views of so few people that is why your one of the only ones ranting on this thread. Chill out man! Go play a round and try to remember that this is supposed to be fun. If you can't do that then I suggest you go back to playing ball golf.
And by the way, I have gone to one of Suzettes tourneys and found it to be one of the best run tourneys I have been to ever!Players packs were awesome, the course was awesome, the players were awesome, the payout was awesome, everything was well worth me driving 13 hours for my son to play, and I will do it again this year. By the way Suzette when will the flyer be out for So. Cal Championships? Looking forward to another great time!!!
p.s. Phillip I do have to agree that you really don't have grounds to speak up until you have run an event of your own. I just started running tourneys and I have to say it is one of the most underappreciated things you can do. You'll on understand when you do!



I will agree with you...i havent run an event! that doesnt mean that i dont know what a good tourney is! i know its not directly reflected by payout and players pack! its the attitude of some tds(few) not all! that we are a paycheck...like you said in your post! i just disagree with that whole mentality! if i ran a tourney, i would get lots of sponsorships and added cash! thats what the big guys like! do you think that any of the great traveling pros are going to go to a tourney with the maximum payout of a b tier is $400? the answer is no! im pretty good friends with 2 touring pros, and when they play an a tier they expect to make some cash if they are in the top 4!

do you see avery jenkins or dave feldberg or eric mccabe or barry schultz playing in a lot of tourneys where the max payout is less than $400??? the answer is no you dont! i remember the first tourney i ever played was an a tier here in dallas and i met barry schultz! i was so freakin excited i got his signature on one of my B.S. BEASTS! the payout on that tourney was $1000, i didnt see him at another tourney for 6 months or so, when the prize pool was over $1000! to attract the bigger players you need big payouts! i went to every tournament expecting to see big name players, and very soon did i learn that they only come around when theres cash to be made! i also know that the way a tourney is run is just as important as payout, but you cant be a prick and not payout!

if we had to RENT our facilities i wouldnt be expecting anything! but no, we have whats called a parks and recreation department!




Maybe where you live parks are free, but the So Cal Championships pays over $1,000 in fees to LA County Parks.



DISCETTE!!!!!!!!!!

PLEASE HEAR ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

IVE NEVER SAID ANYTHING ABOUT YOUR TOURNEYS!!!!!

YOU ACT LIKE I AM TALKING TO YOU OR ABOUT YOUR
TOURNEYS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !

IM NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!

HARD HEADED ARE WE??????????

The Caps Lock key is on the left side of the keyboard. I think you accidentally pressed it.

Do you know how hard it is to raise sponsorship and added cash? Half of the time you could have raised more money by spending the time working and donating your salary than hitting up others for donations. It's the TD that put in time for others to enjoy. They should be getting paid, not some bloke who comes out and plays for a day (or weekend) and provides nothing of value to anyone else.

PH: its the attitude of some tds(few) not all! that we are a paycheck...like you said in your post! i just disagree with that whole mentality!
CK: When you go to McDs or Subway during the lunch break, I'm thinking the manager looks at your purchase as helping support the payroll there including his/her paycheck.

PH: if i ran a tourney, i would get lots of sponsorships and added cash! thats what the big guys like!
CK: As if that's easy. What do you tell them is in it for them (with a straight face)?

PH: do you think that any of the great traveling pros are going to go to a tourney with the maximum payout of a b tier is $400? the answer is no!
CK: And why does that matter? If the added money isn't being generated by or due to spectators, then better to keep what amount you raise spread around to those working the event, regional players and/or supporting course improvements.

answer 1: i dont think the td taking money that has anything to do with the past, current, or future div structure!!!!

but them taking money from our payout is one of the issues on why i think we need less divs! (to increase the $ a winner can win) its like in poker POT ODDS!!!!!

answer 2: please refer to page 17 post # 4 (i do agree that tds should be allowed to make some money, but not a lot!!!)



Your answer #1 seems like a contradiction. Does a TD taking compensation for their efforts have anything to do with division structure or not?

Concerning answer #2, what in your mind is a proper amount that a TD should make? If it is a C Tier or better, figure that the TD has at least 100 hours in, let alone the time of the volunteers. So, is $5 an hour acceptable? $10 an hour? If a TD runs a quick hit tournament and works on it for 20 hours or so, is it out of line for that TD to take $200 for the effort? Minimum wage would demand over $100, and these people obviously are doing a more skilled job than minimum wage.

As for TDs 'taking money from our payout', how about consider that TDs are taking compensation from your entry fees. Fees you freely gave up when you made the consumer choice to purchase your entry. Fees that may partially go to payout, that may partially go to pay the bills, and may partially go to the TD or staff to compensate for the product they provided you.

Why is it so taboo in the disc golf culture to have to pay for a service provided? How long does a TD have to keep working for free under the guise of 'its good for the sport' while they watch people who have done nearly nothing walk off with a load of stuff and grumbling that they didn't get more?



so if your philosophy is correct...we should pay the guy who runs our minis too!!!!

i play with a lot of good guys! they have all run tourneys themselves and they all think that SKIMMING shouldnt be done! i guess they did do it for the good of the game! and maybe that seems a little far fetched for you to understand but there are some people that dont NEED the money! i myself make plenty of money to provide for every need i have! i wouldnt dare take from someones great experience to benifit myself! the people in dg to make money suck! plain and simple!

to re answer discettes #1 question which you say i contradict myself! if tds didnt take a lot of money , the payouts would be higher, which in direct reflection, would mean that we wouldnt need to split up the divs! we could have 20 divs! but when tds take $500- $1000 out of a tourneys payout to put in their pocket that just puts a sour taste in my mouth! and maybe im wrong for thinking this way but if you need to make money off of fellow dg'ers then you should find a new job!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

DISCETTE!!!!!!!!!!

PLEASE HEAR ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

IVE NEVER SAID ANYTHING ABOUT YOUR TOURNEYS!!!!!

YOU ACT LIKE I AM TALKING TO YOU OR ABOUT YOUR
TOURNEYS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !

IM NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!

HARD HEADED ARE WE??????????





I am quite aware that you are not speaking to me or about my events. However, please be advised when you make inaccurate statements about events, expenses and payouts, I am going to call you on it. I simply use examples from my tournaments as solid proof to support my statements.

PH: its the attitude of some tds(few) not all! that we are a paycheck...like you said in your post! i just disagree with that whole mentality!
CK: When you go to McDs or Subway during the lunch break, I'm thinking the manager looks at your purchase as helping support the payroll there including his/her paycheck.

PH: if i ran a tourney, i would get lots of sponsorships and added cash! thats what the big guys like!
CK: As if that's easy. What do you tell them is in it for them (with a straight face)?

PH: do you think that any of the great traveling pros are going to go to a tourney with the maximum payout of a b tier is $400? the answer is no!
CK: And why does that matter? If the added money isn't being generated by or due to spectators, then better to keep what amount you raise spread around to those working the event, regional players and/or supporting course improvements.



Chuck...ive never said that my way is the right way!! or the easy way!

i just said thats the way i believe it should be run! ive only been in this game for 2 years! so i dont have the years of experience or knowledge that all of you have! but what i do have is an understanding on what "MOST" players want! i am one of them! i hear what they say when they see the payouts! i hear what is being said behind the td's backs! i hear a lot of negatives....and its normally only at 2 or 3 td's tourneys! i believe that there is a lot of td's who do it for the love of the game! and if some can, why cant others....the answer is GREED!

when i walk into a mcdonalds i understand that my $5 is going so i can eat! but what happens when that same $5 at a different mcdonalds gets you half of what i paid for at the previous mcdonalds then yeah i have a problem with that!!!!!!!

the people in dg to make money suck! plain and simple!





Since Phillip is not talking to me, would anyone else care to take this one?

DISCETTE!!!!!!!!!!

PLEASE HEAR ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

IVE NEVER SAID ANYTHING ABOUT YOUR TOURNEYS!!!!!

YOU ACT LIKE I AM TALKING TO YOU OR ABOUT YOUR
TOURNEYS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !

IM NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!

HARD HEADED ARE WE??????????





I am quite aware that you are not speaking to me or about my events. However, please be advised when you make inaccurate statements about events, expenses and payouts, I am going to call you on it. I simply use examples from my tournaments as solid proof to support my statements.



you are in a different state! you are dealing with people who obviously LOVE your events! it sounds like you run awesome events! but the fact still remains, here in tx most courses you dont have to pay the city or parks and rec for the facilities! they are dg facilities! now yeah they might have $1 per player fee for the city but going back to my previous performa that should be ez to cover! i do alot of work with one of the course designers and city officials so i do understand the d/fw area! not so. cal or wisconsin or iowa or new york or any other place! i am talking about my experiences! i am not talking about tds as a whole, because i dont know what you have to do! i am only talking about the experiences that i have!

the people in dg to make money suck! plain and simple!





Since Phillip is not talking to me, would anyone else care to take this one?



its my opinion...like it or not, its just an opinion!

when i walk into a mcdonalds i understand that my $5 is going so i can eat! but what happens when that same $5 at a different mcdonalds gets you half of what i paid for at the previous mcdonalds then yeah i have a problem with that!!!!!!!


What we're talking about is going to a McDonalds where you get twice what the other one provides for $5. While it's a free market out there, it sucks when people give away free what others have worked years to learn and provide good services to try and make a living or just a decent return on their efforts. Disc golf will not get to where you think it should go without a solid financial foundation. If things are given away free, then the sport will be stuck where it is with players taking turns giving each other money and no new money coming in. Investment only goes where there's a chance for a reasonable return and that investment can include both time and money.

the people in dg to make money suck! plain and simple!





Since Phillip is not talking to me, would anyone else care to take this one?



There are so many things wrong with this statement. Where is Sarah DeMar when you need her? :o

I think Phillip needs to back up his statement by vowing to give away all his winnings from disc golf.

Some of the grief you're getting from TDs is that your posts seem to ignore the economic truths of running tournaments. We'd like you to realize that you can't add up the entry fees, look at the payout for the top finishers, and conclude that the TD is making a living....or making anything at all.

There are many expenses involved of which players may be unaware. Some of these have been pointed out here. (After reading some of them, I'm thankful to be in an area where we use the public courses for free....but then again, I'll never make enough from tournaments on my private course to cover my expenses there).

One factor in the relatively low payouts for top finishers, particularly in Ams, is the PDGA's move towards requiring flatter payouts. Spread the payout over the top 50%, it doesn't leave a whole lot. Like it or not, this is popular with disc golfers; more suprisingly, if I recall correctly, top pros were surveyed and they too favored flatter payouts.

Another factor to keep in mind is that A-tiers can have bigger payouts simply because they charger higher entry fees. If a tournament charges $50 to enter and pays $400 for first, it's equivalent of charging $100 to enter and paying $800 or more. Sponsorship helps, but the bulk of the money is the money the players pay in; it's a higher-stakes poker, so to speak.

Some of the TDs giving you grief may also feel that it's an argument between those who know, and those who don't. I can relate this experience: I ran or helped run 4 tournaments in 10 weeks this spring. One had a high payout, of sorts: $25 entry fee won the Open winner $400, a pretty good return. One was a fundraiser. One was a low payout, with part of the entry fee going to greens fees on a private course, the quality of which we hope made up for the payout. And one was a standard low payout, $400 to the open winner, in a tournament that must have some quality because it filled to 90 players, with a waiting list, 3 days after registration began, and despite the low payout has drawn some highly regarded pros over the years. So I've seen these issues close-up from several different angles.

Just a few things to keep in mind when the day comes that you run your own tournament, even with lots of sponsors.

PH: its the attitude of some tds(few) not all! that we are a paycheck...like you said in your post! i just disagree with that whole mentality!
CK: When you go to McDs or Subway during the lunch break, I'm thinking the manager looks at your purchase as helping support the payroll there including his/her paycheck.

PH: if i ran a tourney, i would get lots of sponsorships and added cash! thats what the big guys like!
CK: As if that's easy. What do you tell them is in it for them (with a straight face)?

PH: do you think that any of the great traveling pros are going to go to a tourney with the maximum payout of a b tier is $400? the answer is no!
CK: And why does that matter? If the added money isn't being generated by or due to spectators, then better to keep what amount you raise spread around to those working the event, regional players and/or supporting course improvements.



Chuck...ive never said that my way is the right way!! or the easy way!

i just said thats the way i believe it should be run! ive only been in this game for 2 years! so i dont have the years of experience or knowledge that all of you have! but what i do have is an understanding on what "MOST" players want! i am one of them! i hear what they say when they see the payouts! i hear what is being said behind the td's backs! i hear a lot of negatives....and its normally only at 2 or 3 td's tourneys! i believe that there is a lot of td's who do it for the love of the game! and if some can, why cant others....the answer is GREED!

when i walk into a mcdonalds i understand that my $5 is going so i can eat! but what happens when that same $5 at a different mcdonalds gets you half of what i paid for at the previous mcdonalds then yeah i have a problem with that!!!!!!!



I will confess to being a little lost that "most" players don't like the way these unnamed TDs are running their tournaments....but they're drawing enough players to pocket $500 or $1,000, above and beyond their payouts &amp; expenses.

Some of the grief you're getting from TDs is that your posts seem to ignore the economic truths of running tournaments. We'd like you to realize that you can't add up the entry fees, look at the payout for the top finishers, and conclude that the TD is making a living....or making anything at all.

There are many expenses involved of which players may be unaware. Some of these have been pointed out here. (After reading some of them, I'm thankful to be in an area where we use the public courses for free....but then again, I'll never make enough from tournaments on my private course to cover my expenses there).

One factor in the relatively low payouts for top finishers, particularly in Ams, is the PDGA's move towards requiring flatter payouts. Spread the payout over the top 50%, it doesn't leave a whole lot. Like it or not, this is popular with disc golfers; more suprisingly, if I recall correctly, top pros were surveyed and they too favored flatter payouts.

Another factor to keep in mind is that A-tiers can have bigger payouts simply because they charger higher entry fees. If a tournament charges $50 to enter and pays $400 for first, it's equivalent of charging $100 to enter and paying $800 or more. Sponsorship helps, but the bulk of the money is the money the players pay in; it's a higher-stakes poker, so to speak.

Some of the TDs giving you grief may also feel that it's an argument between those who know, and those who don't. I can relate this experience: I ran or helped run 4 tournaments in 10 weeks this spring. One had a high payout, of sorts: $25 entry fee won the Open winner $400, a pretty good return. One was a fundraiser. One was a low payout, with part of the entry fee going to greens fees on a private course, the quality of which we hope made up for the payout. And one was a standard low payout, $400 to the open winner, in a tournament that must have some quality because it filled to 90 players, with a waiting list, 3 days after registration began, and despite the low payout has drawn some highly regarded pros over the years. So I've seen these issues close-up from several different angles.

Just a few things to keep in mind when the day comes that you run your own tournament, even with lots of sponsors.



i agree with most of what you are saying! the things that i dont condone for tds to make money is sky rocket the prices of plastic and players packs! (basically falsifying the legitmate price) !

flatter payouts suck! but it is what it is! i know i cant change that, but i do disagree!

i also am not speaking from experience on the td issue! but i will run my own event and see how it goes!

i respect everyones opinions and i will take all of these things to heart, but i hate people who want to skim! sorry thats just my opinion!

I would think after 21 pages of this discussion, Phillip would get the idea. After all, he is arguing points that have been brought up many times before. And, after hearing the truths about running events, from highly experienced people, he still doesn't get it. Until he runs an event of his own, and discovers how truly difficult it is and how much time and effort it requires, he still won't get it. And to believe that it is simple to just run out and get thousands of dollars worth of sponsorship from people who potentially will get nothing in return is simply outrageous. If he were simply asking questions to learn how to run a successful event, then I could understand. But everything sorta just dawned on me, he is simply an amature player that feels that he is entitled to leave a tournament with bags full of plastic, and swag. He does not understand what it really costs to run, even a minor event. He's probably never even run a league. And then for him to turn on one of the people, who has years and years of running succesful tournaments, who is simply trying to answer his questions, and start calling them names is all out rude! I think it was immature and unneccesary for you to say that to Suzette, and think you should apologize. :mad:
When you decide to run a tournament and walk away with absolutely nothing, at the end of the day you'll realize where we were all coming from.

I would think after 21 pages of this discussion, Phillip would get the idea. After all, he is arguing points that have been brought up many times before. And, after hearing the truths about running events, from highly experienced people, he still doesn't get it. Until he runs an event of his own, and discovers how truly difficult it is and how much time and effort it requires, he still won't get it. And to believe that it is simple to just run out and get thousands of dollars worth of sponsorship from people who potentially will get nothing in return is simply outrageous. If he were simply asking questions to learn how to run a successful event, then I could understand. But everything sorta just dawned on me, he is simply an amature player that feels that he is entitled to leave a tournament with bags full of plastic, and swag. He does not understand what it really costs to run, even a minor event. He's probably never even run a league. And then for him to turn on one of the people, who has years and years of running succesful tournaments, who is simply trying to answer his questions, and start calling them names is all out rude! I think it was immature and unneccesary for you to say that to Suzette, and think you should apologize. :mad:
When you decide to run a tournament and walk away with absolutely nothing, at the end of the day you'll realize where we were all coming from.



Ding ding ding!

Phillip they aren't backing Mace they are just backing all TDs. People continue to play the DFW events because there is a huge amount of people waiting for events and when they get the chance they better play. Us MPO guys in TX must play his events in order to have a legit shot at the TX rep USDGC spot even though everyone expects crap payout.

5th in an A-tier should pull more than $250 and that was one of the better paying events. Unlike a $70 entry into a division with 30 players that pays $325 for 1st and $185 for 3rd.

I would think after 21 pages of this discussion, Phillip would get the idea. After all, he is arguing points that have been brought up many times before. And, after hearing the truths about running events, from highly experienced people, he still doesn't get it. Until he runs an event of his own, and discovers how truly difficult it is and how much time and effort it requires, he still won't get it. And to believe that it is simple to just run out and get thousands of dollars worth of sponsorship from people who potentially will get nothing in return is simply outrageous. If he were simply asking questions to learn how to run a successful event, then I could understand. But everything sorta just dawned on me, he is simply an amature player that feels that he is entitled to leave a tournament with bags full of plastic, and swag. He does not understand what it really costs to run, even a minor event. He's probably never even run a league. And then for him to turn on one of the people, who has years and years of running succesful tournaments, who is simply trying to answer his questions, and start calling them names is all out rude! I think it was immature and unneccesary for you to say that to Suzette, and think you should apologize. :mad:
When you decide to run a tournament and walk away with absolutely nothing, at the end of the day you'll realize where we were all coming from.



if you would read all of my posts you would have read the following statements:

im not saying that players less than 900 shouldnt have a div!
if you read in my earlier post i said why not have only two am divs. am 1 (970-910) and am 2 (909-under)

and <font color="red"> i am truely sorry for the personal attacks </font> , but as you can see, i am upset with the things that are being done around here! not you, or the tourneys you have run! and my performa was based on only 50 advanced players. most tourneys here in dfw have 154 people! if you take the $60 entry and send $50 to prize pool, how can you not pay for insurance and $150 pavillion fees?? players packs i do understand so if you can only send $40 to the prize pool for the am divs it should still be a better payout than what we are seeing!!!

i will say this one more time... <font color="red"> </font> IM TRUELY SORRY FOR THE PERSONAL ATTACKS <font color="red"> </font> ....but when i see people defending the people who dont even understand the situation that some ams are being put in, it upsets me!

************************************************** ********************
and i dont want the GREAT TD'S to think i am talking about them!!!! if you are that kind of guy, then none of this pertains to you! by the sound of it, you are the kind of td that i would love to have around here! i have no problem when money is taken from the tourney to benifit disc golf as a whole! ie. course improvement, course installment, club funds, any of the things that will help disc golf as a whole! but when tds (not you or discette or any other decent td) takes money to better their living situation, it annoys me!
************************************************** *********************
DISCETTE!!!!!!!!!!

PLEASE HEAR ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

IVE NEVER SAID ANYTHING ABOUT YOUR TOURNEYS!!!!!

YOU ACT LIKE I AM TALKING TO YOU OR ABOUT YOUR
TOURNEYS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !

IM NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!
************************************************** *********************
i am talking about my experiences! i am not talking about tds as a whole, because i dont know what you have to do! i am only talking about the experiences that i have!
************************************************** **********************
i am not sure what you have read but i have apologized!!!

Again, they are not defending a specific TD, but TDs in general. If you want to make it about one TD, then do so. Your comments so far haven't singled anyone out. Everyone in DFW knows what you are talking about, but most of the people on the board don't.

Yelling while you apologize does not help it sound sincere.

Why is it that you think people shouldn't make any money from running events. It takes countless hours of time and dedication to run a successful event and usually you are lucky to break even. What is wrong with figuring out a way to make money doing something you love? Do you think the guys running PGA events are doing it w/out making money? I would love to see a time when TD's are able to make a "good" profit from running events. It would keep more experienced people around and make for much better events. The way it is now, most new TD's get burnt out after a couple of events because of the work load w/out compensation. You said you haven't run an event because you don't have time. Well, most people don't have time, they make it because they love the game. I am married with two babies and a full time job and I find the time to run events. If you are speaking for "most" of the people you know, then start speaking "to" them and stop going to those events. However, I'm pretty sure those events will still fill because most people, or at least the people good for the game, will still play because they enjoy the game.

When you do run your event, please let me know. I would love to make the trip for a tourney with all that added cash from sponsors willing to get nothing in return, no course fees, donated players packs, donated time and every cent going back to payouts.

I hope you don't have bills to pay. :confused:

!!!!!!!!!!!!!????????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !??????????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!???????? ???????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

.................................................. .........

wow, after hours of reading these threads, there is obviously a difference of opinons:)

common sense would say Clubs, TDs or Disc companies, that run organized, fun tournaments with fair payouts, will stay in business longer....profit is a non issue at that point.

as disc golf grows, so does the responsibility...have you seen the spreadsheets you have to fill out to run a sanctioned event??? not to mention the amount of players we manage has increased over 100% in the last 3-5 years. The accounting for a extra large event is almost a fulltime job in itself, not to mention website manager, etc. I could go on for a while on this, but I won't.

When do we reach the point when we outsource sanctioned events to experienced TD's/Companies committed to finding sponsors full time year round?

I love volunteering my time to disc golf in my community, and on several cases, my own money. This is seperate from running sanctioned Am or Pro events, and the sooner we realize that, the better off we will be.

I love rocs.......a lot

peace

based on only 50 advanced players. most tourneys here in dfw have 154 people! if you take the $60 entry and send $50 to prize pool, how can you not pay for insurance and $150 pavillion fees?? players packs i do understand so if you can only send $40 to the prize pool for the am divs it should still be a better payout than what we are seeing!!!



If $40 from each entry goes to the prize pool, for 50 players in an Am division, that's $2,000. Using the PDGA standards for paying 45% of the division, the winner would get $140 in merchandise, valued at MSRP.

Is this about what you're seeing?

Of the other $20 from each entry fee, or $1,000 total, $500 would go to minimum player packs (possibly more), $150 to per-player PDGA B-tier fees. That leaves $350 for sanctioning fees, insurance, state or regional fees (if any), and whatever other expenses are incurred. So $40 going to the prize pool might be a fair ballpark guess.

the people in dg to make money suck! plain and simple!




That is such an ignorant statement. That might be true if we lived in a Marxist workd ... but we live a capitalist world. Cash rules everything around us.

boy, i'd say this thread has drifted too far from the shore.

Again, they are not defending a specific TD, but TDs in general. If you want to make it about one TD, then do so. Your comments so far haven't singled anyone out. Everyone in DFW knows what you are talking about, but most of the people on the board don't.

Yelling while you apologize does not help it sound sincere.



lol sorry i wasnt yelling but one of my posts i didnt take caps lock off!

and yeah i have tried to explain that i am not talking about all td's just a few! i know you know who im talking about!

boy, i'd say this thread has drifted too far from the shore.



i agree i just want less divs to increase payout! thats how this all started! sorry for the crap ive been talking! i know weve gotten way off track here but lets get back to the original issue of less divs!

the people in dg to make money suck! plain and simple!




That is such an ignorant statement. That might be true if we lived in a Marxist workd ... but we live a capitalist world. Cash rules everything around us.



i agree this is a capitalist country but when we have td's that do it well and the payouts are good why cant all td's be this way!!!

i am actually trying to defend the GREAT TD'S but at the same time i have never run an event so i guess i am way out of my league by making such vague statements on what i believe to be true!

that still doesnt change what i believe to be RIGHT!

based on only 50 advanced players. most tourneys here in dfw have 154 people! if you take the $60 entry and send $50 to prize pool, how can you not pay for insurance and $150 pavillion fees?? players packs i do understand so if you can only send $40 to the prize pool for the am divs it should still be a better payout than what we are seeing!!!



If $40 from each entry goes to the prize pool, for 50 players in an Am division, that's $2,000. Using the PDGA standards for paying 45% of the division, the winner would get $140 in merchandise, valued at MSRP.

Is this about what you're seeing?

Of the other $20 from each entry fee, or $1,000 total, $500 would go to minimum player packs (possibly more), $150 to per-player PDGA B-tier fees. That leaves $350 for sanctioning fees, insurance, state or regional fees (if any), and whatever other expenses are incurred. So $40 going to the prize pool might be a fair ballpark guess.



I Wish this was true! in most cases no tourney are $40 any more! the only one that i have played that the entry was less than $50 was the fareheit fling this year and it was a fund raiser for the VPO and the adv div only had 25 or so people and the payouts were higher than that! the winner took $190 in plastic! that was run by our club and we still made money for the VPO! so this brings me to this, if we can raise money and still payout well, why cant others?

Sorry for the thread crossing(random paste) but it seemed appropriate. PH, step away from the keyboard. :D

http://www.frontiernet.net/~joe14580/this%20thread%20has%20derailed.jpg

Sorry for the thread crossing(random paste) but it seemed appropriate. PH, step away from the keyboard. :D

http://www.frontiernet.net/~joe14580/this%20thread%20has%20derailed.jpg



lol i am trying to but my fingers have a mind of their own!

are you playing cedar hill this weekend?

you better!!!!

i will make you a deal! if you play this weekend i will never post on this topic again!

I Wish this was true! in most cases no tourney are $40 any more! the only one that i have played that the entry was less than $50 was the fareheit fling this year.



Phillip, a little fact check here.
You played in the New Orleans Pot of Gold 3-15-08.
Entry fee $30, Tshirts and lunch provided to all.
This TD "inflated" the price of lunch and shirt to a $10 value, total.

If you tweak your divisions it will not make all TD's change their payout methods. A crook with limited divisions is still a crook.

steve timm

I Wish this was true! in most cases no tourney are $40 any more! the only one that i have played that the entry was less than $50 was the fareheit fling this year.



Phillip, a little fact check here.
You played in the New Orleans Pot of Gold 3-15-08.
Entry fee $30, Tshirts and lunch provided to all.
This TD "inflated" the price of lunch and shirt to a $10 value, total.

If you tweak your divisions it will not make all TD's change their payout methods. A crook with limited divisions is still a crook.

steve timm



you are right about that! i am sorry! that was an awesome tourney! i know i will be back next year! that is SNDG for you!

i wish SNDG would do more tourneys in tx!

their payouts are fat compared to a reg pdga event!

GO SNDG!!!!!!

Club based events are a little different than a vendor based event. Clubs do it to raise money for the club, club events, or community charities. Vendors run events for the players and themselves. Vendors usually put most of the cash back into the sport in one way or another.

As for being compensated for your efforts: I wouldn't work everyday for no compensation, would you?

Club based events are a little different than a vendor based event. Clubs do it to raise money for the club, club events, or community charities. Vendors run events for the players and themselves. Vendors usually put most of the cash back into the sport in one way or another.

As for being compensated for your efforts: I wouldn't work everyday for no compensation, would you?



my only response is this....the only reason people play his events is there are very few people who run events around here! i know for a fact that if there were other tourneys available we would be more selective!

what about me and you john! im sure we could run one heck of an event

As for being compensated for your efforts: I wouldn't work everyday for no compensation, would you?



Don't try to bring some common sense into this arguement.

my only response is this....the only reason people play his events is <font color="red"> there are very few people who run events around here! </font>




Hmmmmm, do you wonder why this might be?

He has a point. Very few seem to last more than a handful of years at it. Those that do only run one or two a year.

I think TDs should be required to carefully track all the time they spend working on each tournament -- all the hours on preparing the course, working with the parks department, getting PDGA certified, doing paperwork, tracking entry fees, planning payout, raising sponsorships, running the event, filling out PDGA forms on the backend so players get their ratings... etc...

That way, when a TD tracks the 200 hours they spend putting on a great tournament, they can plan to pay themselves a reasonable wage, something extravagant like $1/hour. That way they can justify to all they skeptics why they are totally in the right to take $200 from the entry fees and using it to take their wife/husband/girlfriend/boyfriend out to a five-star restaurant as thanks/apology for being an absentee spouse for the month surrounding a tournament.

TDs should also track the hours for all the other lead volunteers, so they can also justify taking $50/each to buy thank-you gift cards for the handful of volunteers who probably spent at least 50 hours apiece helping get the course together and putting on the tournament.

Add those numbers up, and you quickly get to ~$500 taken out of players fees. And that's to "pay" the people involved $1/hour for their time. Which isn't really a paycheck -- it's a token "THANK YOU" to the people involved -- both on and off the course.

I have helped on a small scale with a couple of tournaments, but I have seen up close on other occasions the work it takes to run them. My job and other commitments in life don't allow me the time to spend many hours on the course -- either as a player, a volunteer or otherwise -- so I am incredibly grateful to TDs who invest their time putting together tournaments, because if not for them, I wouldn't play tournaments. I doubt there is any way I would ever have time to step in and do what they do.

And in most areas of the country I've been in, TDs are also the people doing the most work on the local courses, because they want the courses to be great on tournament day. TDs are often the ones out there clearing fairways, coordinating new teepads and baskets, working with the parks departments to expand the courses, etc...

I look at it this way: I love hosting people for dinner or having guests in to stay from out of town -- my home is always open. And one of the fringe benefits of having people over is that it gives me incentive to keep my house clean. I'm sure everyone on this board is that way: when people are coming over, you clean house to show off the best you can. TDs and tournaments work the same way: you're hosting a tournament so you get your home course in perfect shape for the guests coming to play.

In a perfect world, I don't think TDs should have to take a single penny from player fees -- I think they should be 100 percent volunteer -- but in that same perfect world, I think players should spontaneously give $5-$20 apiece to TDs as a "Thank You" for all their hard work. A system of mutual giving makes everyone feel good.

However, since we don't live in a perfect world, be gracious and let the TDs take something for their efforts. Whatever they take, it's likely to be far, far, far less than they deserve.

the people in dg to make money suck! plain and simple!




That is such an ignorant statement. That might be true if we lived in a Marxist workd ... but we live a capitalist world. <font color="green"> Cash rules everything around me.</font>



C.R.E.A.M get the money... dolla dolla bill ya'll

I think TDs should be required to carefully track all the time they spend working on each tournament -- all the hours on preparing the course, working with the parks department, getting PDGA certified, doing paperwork, tracking entry fees, planning payout, raising sponsorships, running the event, filling out PDGA forms on the backend so players get their ratings... etc...

That way, when a TD tracks the 200 hours they spend putting on a great tournament, they can plan to pay themselves a reasonable wage, something extravagant like $1/hour. That way they can justify to all they skeptics why they are totally in the right to take $200 from the entry fees and using it to take their wife/husband/girlfriend/boyfriend out to a five-star restaurant as thanks/apology for being an absentee spouse for the month surrounding a tournament.

TDs should also track the hours for all the other lead volunteers, so they can also justify taking $50/each to buy thank-you gift cards for the handful of volunteers who probably spent at least 50 hours apiece helping get the course together and putting on the tournament.

Add those numbers up, and you quickly get to ~$500 taken out of players fees. And that's to "pay" the people involved $1/hour for their time. Which isn't really a paycheck -- it's a token "THANK YOU" to the people involved -- both on and off the course.



You propose giving a little money to those who WORK, instead of all to those who PLAY?

In a perfect world, I don't think TDs should have to take a single penny from player fees -- I think they should be 100 percent volunteer -- but in that same perfect world, I think players should spontaneously give $5-$20 apiece to TDs as a "Thank You" for all their hard work. A system of mutual giving makes everyone feel good.

However, since we don't live in a perfect world, be gracious and let the TDs take something for their efforts. Whatever they take, it's likely to be far, far, far less than they deserve.



I think this would be a great idea! why not put a td charge in the equation somewhere! or a TIP JAR lol! i honestly think that would be fair! for a td that ran a good event i would gladly throw him $10-$20 , as long as they werent taking from the payout!

every poker tourney i go to i throw the house $! i think thats only fair!

i agree they need to be compensated but lets do this up front and honest not just taking the $! i think you would get a better response or more $ donated if you did this!

If the Starbucks people can have a Tip Jar then yes, we TD's need a tip jar too! I'm gonna walk around the course like Dr. Cox with a tip jar lol!

every poker tourney i go to i throw the house $! i think thats only fair!



Right but the house still takes their cut of the winnings from each hand. How dare they make money from the payout /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Here is how I see the future rating breaks......
976+ = Pro
951 - 975 = Pro Baggers
926 - 950 = Advanced
901 - 925 = Intermidiate
851 - 900 = Rec
000 - 850 = Novice

There also needs to be a division added for the "True" baggers, you know the guy that never gets a PDGA membership and is the 5 year defending champ in Intermidiate. We need a division, lets call it the "No more bagging for you" division for all NON-PDGA Members. Entry fee for this division is limited to one half the annual PDGA fee for AMS. The top half finishers all get free PDGA memberships. If there is an odd number of entrants then the half due remaining goes to the TD as compensation for having to listen to the complaining that they don't get any plastic.

If you're going to tweak it then keep keep the names familiar to a competetive sport so people will know where they fit. Keep Novice in place as the lowest, get rid of Rec so they wont feel inadequate and change it something such as this...

Pro/Open N/A
Semi-Pro 935+
Advanced 901-934
Intermediate 851-900
Novice 850&gt;

Oops. :o

It is a shame that it only takes one or two self entitled wipes to run their yaps and ruin it for everyone else.


Here is an excerpt from Macemans website. Go there to get the entire announcement: http://www.maceman.com/



...The Future and all that other stuff

At this point in time I have made the decision to discontinue operation of The North Texas Series. I will continue to run some of the events that I have run in the past, but the number will be down significantly from years past.

I will no longer be working in Disc Golf as a means of support effective immediately. I will be doing some stage work again, as well as exploring other business opportunities. I have put myself second for far too long and that will not continue. I will split my time in a manner that is more beneficial to me from now on.

I will continue to run PIO (January), Cedar Hill (post Super Bowl), Z Boaz Open (late April), A to Z Doubles (late Feb or early March, in a similar time frame as other doubles events in TX), and Waco Charity Open (late May or early June). There will not be a Big Show series again any time soon.

In the future I will run these events in very different manner, with a completely different approach. That approach will be based firmly in reality. You want a big event? You want to receive the benefits of a big event? You have to pay for it. I am certianly not going to pay for it any more. Nor will I go out and beg people in the local community to give us money because our sport is so cool and we are even cooler than that. You want to see a big event than buy a fundraiser disc. You want to see an even bigger event than help me sell some fundraisers in your neighborhood or town. You want more? Are you a top player? Than allow me to sell a round, a half day, or a full day with you on and around the course. It only makes sense. You want more than do more. I currently have around 40 CFR Destroyers that I will ship for $25 ea, that money will go to PIO and generate more support for subsequent events. Email me [email protected]

You may not want to hear this, but we are not that cool and we are not going to get there any time soon. We do not have any power in the advertising market, and we are not capable of generating anywhere near the attention necessary to pull down the sponsorship that many of us demand. I am going to let you in on a secret, sponsorship is advertising. Advertising is done to generate business, not to make beggars happy.

Unfortunately we are not that good at supporting our sponsors, and we are seen as a group that receives but rarely gives in return. Besides all of that we are just us, no spectators' just players. We aren't even drawing a crowd that is large enough to pull down the dream sponsor money at the biggest and greatest event in the game why would the XYZ Open suddenly be the one to make it happen?

This sport has a lot of good people that have the bad habit of talking really loud about a topic they have little to no knowledge of. It is amazing how many people there are in this game that know more about running a business and or events than the person that actually does it. Then lets throw in some unrealistic expectations and demands on top of it all. The end result is a person giving it his all, and the reward is a sound beating in one form or fashion from the main beneficiaries. Not to mention the bonus end reward, the reputation that comes from all the kind words of all the winners that hauled home the inadequate payout at the end.

Have you ever heard of the bucket crab mentality? If you take one crab and a bucket, put the crab in the bucket. He can easily reach the top and pull himself up and over the edge to freedom. But if you put a few crabs in the bucket, the one on top can easily reach up and pull himself over the edge to freedom. The problem is that the other crabs see the one "getting ahead of them" and they reach up and grab the crab and try to pull themselves up as well only to pull the first crab back down on top of them again.

Unfortunately disc golfers are a lot like bucket crabs. The local promoter is the first crab, and the players are the other crabs in the bucket. Most bucket crabs don't know or even care what is going on. But there's that one super sleuth crab that has appointed himself as the local watch crab. He's on the job keeping anyone from "getting rich" or gaining freedom, and if there is the hint of progress or something appears slightly out of line he will be on the scene. But not really, he will be out there somewhere talking really loud, but never taking the time to do all of the home work. Preaching in his outside voice about the perceived injustice but never really doing a complete investigation on the situation. Gathering all the facts "I need" as proof, and then pushing through the conviction without a trial and moving straight to the punishment.

If that local promoter isn't entitled to anything for his efforts, why should he do the work? Who among you will work this week for free? I know the answer is a resounding no from all, so why then should this or any local or national promoter do any of this for you with no pay? It is work, it takes up time, and it should be rewarded. The thing that is sad is that it goes on in every town in every state in the game. The names are different but the game is the same.

In case you didn't read the paragraph above I ask again, if you are not willing to work this week for free, why should your local disc golf promoter work for you for free????

Wake up you local promoters. Your merch has a value and in order for the game to move forward and you to succeed you need to realize that value. Otherwise we are just moving the same money around over and over again. All of the basic equipment is so cheap even at full retail compared to other sports equipment. It is so counterproductive to try and work a promoter for a dollar or two on a disc price, when that is the actual growth of the sport.

This is all so simple and so stupid all at the same time. Here are my recommendations as of September 2008.

Players wise up and enjoy what you have. Stop beating on your local promoter unless you are willing to do what they are doing, and if so you must do it better than the person before you or why get rid of them dumb (edit)? You keep throwing stones at that guy or gall doing all the work for you, and they will go away after they get hit enough times. Then who will you have to throw stones at???

Promoters take the time and learn what you are doing. You and the game really need to get the full value from your products; it is the only thing that the economy of the game can count on year after year. You are not Sam Walton, and the sport is not Wal-Mart. We are all the sport has, no sponsor is going to come along anytime soon and take us to the next level. We have to wise up and become real business people or get out. If your not swimming your treading water and you just as well get out of the pool. DO something original, gain an edge and compete with that. Don't hide behind a cut rate price because you aren't really bringing anything to the plate in the first place. Don't exist in this business just to rape the market and the game, do it some good or move on.

You can agree with me or disagree I don't care and I wasn't asking. I am telling you what I think and how I feel. Disc Golf used to be my passion. That was taken away little by little over time, and now I don't know what to say. I feel like I have been robbed in many ways. I can't afford to give my life away for free any more.

You can send me an email or we can discuss any or all of this on the discussion board here on maceman.com when I get around to it. [email protected]

Thanks to all that have supported me, and gone the distance with and for me. I am truly grateful and I can't thank you enough. Anyone who put me up or set me up with a friend to stay with along the way, I wish I had made a list so I could send you a thank you letter. But those of you who really know me know I would not get around to it. So I will thank you here. I could not have done all of the things I have done in the last 14+ years without your help, thank you very much. The countless friendships and good times that have come my way through out all of this are the great reward that I will always cherish. Thank you all so much.

To those of you who have gone out of your way to undermine me and my efforts, you can fill in the blanks _ _ _ _ _ _ _.


Sincerely
Brian Mace



So Philip Hall (ucouldntstopmeanyway) should now be happy to know there will be one less person making money on disc golf!!

What a shame... :(

[censored].

Here is an excerpt from Macemans website. Go there to get the entire announcement: http://www.maceman.com/

"In the future I will run these events in very different manner, with a completely different approach. That approach will be based firmly in reality. You want a big event? You want to receive the benefits of a big event? You have to pay for it. I am certianly not going to pay for it any more. Nor will I go out and beg people in the local community to give us money because our sport is so cool and we are even cooler than that. You want to see a big event than buy a fundraiser disc. You want to see an even bigger event than help me sell some fundraisers in your neighborhood or town. You want more? Are you a top player? Than allow me to sell a round, a half day, or a full day with you on and around the course. It only makes sense. You want more than DO more"

is this how you feel too, Suzette? i sense many TDs are starting to "feel" this phenomenon

is this how you feel too, Suzette? i sense many TDs are starting to "feel" this phenomenon



No. I am fortunate in that the players in So Cal actually seem to appreciate the work the So Cal Series TD's do.

That being said, most So Cal events are run by clubs and individuals, not disc golf vendors. I run the So Cal Championships and our year end awards for the So Cal DGA.If it was not for tournament fund raising sales, there would be little added cash. The outside sponsors and club support help to cover expenses...like the nearly $1,500 we are paying in park permit fees to LA County for this year's So Cal Championships.

I run events and help So Cal mostly because I enjoy volunteering and it was the way I was brought up. However, the warm fuzzy feeling that comes from helping out could quickly turn sour if I had to put up with the self-entitled bunch of whiners that some TD's face on this message board.

So, if players want TD's to keep running events, they should take the time to say thank you. This could hopefully counteract the sometimes unfounded criticism that seems to come their way. Maybe you could even spare some cash and buy a few discs from the vendor or club and help them stay solvent long enough to run the event again next year.

Couldn't agree more, I see first hand the barrage of critism that TD's are receiving. It seems that most of it comes from the TD's so-called friends. At least that's how I have perceived it in my area. Sad thing is, most TD's I know around here can't wait to stop being a TD so they can start criticizing the new TD. I've had personal talks with TD's and some of the critics, but it's like talking to a wall. For now, disc golf survives in this area, but the future is uncertain.

This is how I think the division should split. i know I'm not to the point where i can compete with 1000 rated player but i'm not to far off.

975+ Pro (playing for cash)
950+ Semi-Pro (for those that dont want to accept cash, playing for prizes, limit payouts for this division)
950-925 Advanced (playing for plastic, limit payouts for this division)
925-900 Intermediate (same as advanced, with heavier payouts)
900-875 Recreational (same as intermediate, with heavier payouts)
875-or below Novice (same as Rec, with heavier payouts)

If you are in the top 3 divisions the last thing you need is more plastic. The thrill of the game and trophes should be enough to keep you competing. The lower divisions are the ones in need of the plastic, bags, etc.

Why have SO many divisions?