Roosta
Jun 13 2008, 09:16 PM
can caddies call rules violations on the course or only players?

cgkdisc
Jun 13 2008, 09:24 PM
Yes, if the caddy is a certified official AND is not making calls for the division of the player he's caddying for.

bruce_brakel
Jun 13 2008, 10:31 PM
My take -- In the secret rule book it says:

"A player�s caddie is subject to all items with in the PDGA Rules of Play and the PDGA Competition Manual including all applicable dress codes."

Hence, a caddy has the same obligation to call rule violations as the player he is caddying for.

I was told yesterday that last year my daughter, while fore caddying for me on a hole gave an official warning to two players who were having a loud, vulgar argument. Apparently they took it as an official warning too.

Mark_Stephens
Jun 13 2008, 11:02 PM
Feeling obligated and having standing to do so are two different matters... ;)

prairie_dawg
Jun 14 2008, 01:08 AM
Yes, if the caddy is a certified official AND is not making calls for the division of the player he's caddying for.


Chuck,

Are you trying to say caddies can't call foot faults on the card they are caddying? I'm making the assumption that all players on the card are in the same division.

cgkdisc
Jun 14 2008, 01:15 AM
I think only the players would have to make this particular call for fairness. The caddy could advise their player on making the call but it would seem inappropriate for caddies to have an independent vote since not everyone has a caddy.

Where I think caddies that are officials could make rulings would be when a group from another division asks someone outside their division to make a call on maybe whether a disc is OB.

gang4010
Jun 14 2008, 12:51 PM
So you think a certified official who is caddying can't make foot fault, or time violation calls? Or any other kind of call besides whether or not a disc is OB? I believe that to be patently wrong on all counts. A non playing, certified official can make a call at anytime on the course for any group. The only caveat to that would be that he "should" have to be recognized by the TD as being a certified official for the event.

Now as a caddy - ettiquette might suggest that he not initiate calls - but for calls that require a second - I see nothing wrong with essentially "being a witness" to a rules infraction. Especially with our current environment of people failing to make calls due to not paying attention in the first place.

krupicka
Jun 14 2008, 01:23 PM
I think the cause for concern would be seconding for the player he is caddying for. IMO since the caddy's infractions are docked against the one he is serving, the caddy should be treated simply as an extension of the player.

Thus if a player calls foot fault, his caddy cannot second it. He can second any other call. The caddy can also call a foot fault, but his player cannot second it.

gnduke
Jun 14 2008, 03:32 PM
I go along with that concept, The player/caddy should in effect be a single player as far as calling and seconding rule violations.

It's only fair since they are already being treated as a single player when if comes to being called for rules violations.

Mark_Stephens
Jun 14 2008, 07:36 PM
So you think a certified official who is caddying can't make foot fault, or time violation calls? Or any other kind of call besides whether or not a disc is OB? I believe that to be patently wrong on all counts. A non playing, certified official can make a call at anytime on the course for any group. The only caveat to that would be that he "should" have to be recognized by the TD as being a certified official for the event.

Now as a caddy - ettiquette might suggest that he not initiate calls - but for calls that require a second - I see nothing wrong with essentially "being a witness" to a rules infraction. Especially with our current environment of people failing to make calls due to not paying attention in the first place.



That is a VERY slippery slope to climb with the caddy "working" for one of the players on that card. Be it a favor, for discs, or for cash; some agreement has been made between the caddy and the player therefore the caddy/certified official should not be involved in any calls that pertain to that division as they have a vested interest in the outcome.

cgkdisc
Jun 14 2008, 09:43 PM
Speaking of caddies and calling "fools" violations:
http://sports.aol.com/fanhouse/2008/06/1...ce-to-fan-on-9/ (http://sports.aol.com/fanhouse/2008/06/14/adam-scotts-caddie-dispenses-some-vigilante-justice-to-fan-on-9/)

gang4010
Jun 15 2008, 10:23 AM
That is a VERY slippery slope to climb with the caddy "working" for one of the players on that card. Be it a favor, for discs, or for cash; some agreement has been made between the caddy and the player therefore the caddy/certified official should not be involved in any calls that pertain to that division as they have a vested interest in the outcome.



This approach suggests from the outset, that calling someone for a rules infraction has something other to do than following the rules. If you assume that someones motivations are unethical from the start - it's no wonder people don't want to call rules in the first place. This IS the problem with our self policing rules environment - and that attitude has no place in tournament golf. You see it you call it - there is no malice, no forethought, no emotion, only a witnessing of a circumstance.

Mark_Stephens
Jun 15 2008, 11:05 AM
So why stop with your caddy? Why not bring your father, mother, sister, and brother? You can have all of them call rules violations as well? Dad can be looking for stance violations, sister can be listening for foul language, mother can be looking for illegal substances, and brother can be in charge of unmarked discs.

OR

Maybe you as a player or on of the other 3 players in the group can step up to the plate and make the call yourself. If 3 players in a group cannot see or hear a rules violation then it probably should not be called.

gang4010
Jun 15 2008, 12:06 PM
If my entire family were all certified officials and willing to give their time to events I played in - I'd have em out there in a second.

Mark - I understand your thought that a caddy has a vested interest in the outcome - I just don't agree with it. It assumes the worst in people as the baseline interpretation of their motivations.

IF - that person is a certified official - and has been recognized as such for the event by the TD, then he should be welcome to act as such regardless of whether or not he is someone's caddy.

Your last statement reflects the state of ambivalence towards the rules that is so often lamented here on this board, and in practice at many - if not most - of our sanctioned events. It makes the guy trying to follow the rules into the bad guy (which is totally backwards), and keeps people from even being willing to make a call for fear of either backlash - or distraction to their own game. Funny thing is - I do make calls - and more often than not - they go unseconded because people aren't paying attention. A testament to the need for more non playing officials - because we can obviously not be counted upon as a group to police the play within our own groups.

mgaffney
Jun 15 2008, 12:49 PM
It's not fair to the group the official is walking with if that official is watching with a critical eye only that group. They are being held to a higher standard than the other groups who don't have officials.
If I'm on a course in an officials capacity I will walk through the course randomly watching groups. If I have to be with one group to score or pace I will only act if called upon to provide interpretation.
That official who is caddying should not be making calls except to interpret rules for that group.

Gaff

mannyd_928
Jun 15 2008, 09:26 PM
So if a person is caddying someone and IS NOT a PDGA official and sees a blatant rules violation, they have no ground to speak up? I think what it all boils down to is first, people need to learn how to read, then learning how to read the PDGA rule book, and then following the rules they read. No one wants to have to call rules violations, cause no one wants to be a "snitch", but enough is enough! If there is a PDGA official caddying or even walking nearby, rules violations need to be addressed. If everyone keeps allowing the violations to persist, then when the players reach a level when said rules violations really count, it shouldn't come as such a shock. I personally think, when you join the PDGA they should also send you a copy of the rule book..IMHO
Hey Gaff, Tommy did real good this weekend, He and Chris tied for 3rd. Congrats to your brother!

Mark_Stephens
Jun 15 2008, 11:01 PM
Mark - I understand your thought that a caddy has a vested interest in the outcome - I just don't agree with it. It assumes the worst in people as the baseline interpretation of their motivations.



Actually, I am not assuming the worst but, you have your good friend caddying for you. Do you REALLY think that they are going to call an infraction on you? Most likely not and that it the reason why it is not a good idea. Most likely they would just keep quiet about anything they saw. Why? Because they are your friend who is there to help you, not hurt you. I don't think that it is a good idea to put that type of thing in place because foul intentions or not, because in the reality they are <u>not</u> going to call an infraction on you.

A non-playing official is NOT someone carrying YOUR bag. ;)

I will stand by my last statement. If you or the other 2 players in that group cannot see an infraction then it should not be called. Why is that a bad thing? If three sets of eyes did not see it, why would adding more help at all?

Mark_Stephens
Jun 15 2008, 11:03 PM
So if a person is caddying someone and IS NOT a PDGA official and sees a blatant rules violation, they have no ground to speak up? I think what it all boils down to is first, people need to learn how to read, then learning how to read the PDGA rule book, and then following the rules they read. No one wants to have to call rules violations, cause no one wants to be a "snitch", but enough is enough! If there is a PDGA official caddying or even walking nearby, rules violations need to be addressed. If everyone keeps allowing the violations to persist, then when the players reach a level when said rules violations really count, it shouldn't come as such a shock. I personally think, when you join the PDGA they should also send you a copy of the rule book..IMHO
Hey Gaff, Tommy did real good this weekend, He and Chris tied for 3rd. Congrats to your brother!



They also need the Competition Manual as that has many rule as well...

chainmeister
Jun 16 2008, 11:02 AM
I think there is a legitimate tension between wanting to get the correct rules called and avoiding an appearance of prejudice in making the call. This is why the notion of the caddie and player being one can balance that tension. I like that idea. If a player is foot faulting and the caddie, not a certiified official sees it, he or she should tell their player or everybody in the group, "keep an eye on your run up. I think you are foot faulting." The players in the goup can call it the next time. A tougher question is if the caddie sees an outright dirty act ie moving a marker and nobody else sees it.

The idea of family members calling infractions is often an issue with juniors. A parent may often be walking the course with their youngster. In that case, I would hope the balance would swing towards getting the call rright and that the parent would not overtly be calling to favor their kid. We would all like to assume that the adult walking the course is a fair and impartial authority figure (assuming he or she is a certified official). I used to see Don Loper walk the course with his kids when they were younger. I am not sure if he still does it. Nobody would ever question that he was being fair and that every kid on the card learned a little about golf, a little about etiquette and a little about the rules before the round was over.

cgkdisc
Jun 16 2008, 11:07 AM
Muddying this issue is the problem with the player being allowed to call themself on a foot fault and just be seconded by one other player. The rule should be changed so that the player should not be allowed to call or second their foot fault, OR two other players in the group, not just one, have to agree if the player calls it on themself.

keithjohnson
Jun 18 2008, 02:40 AM
I personally think, when you join the PDGA they should also send you a copy of the rule book..IMHO




They do, and have been for several years now as part of your new member package.

The problem is not many players CARRY their rule book in their bag. So players let others call "non-rules" rules on them, because no one in the 4 or 5 some has a rule book.
I would venture to say judging from the 25-30 events I play or run in a year that only 10% of the players in a tournament have a current rule book on them.

Mark_Stephens
Jun 18 2008, 08:37 AM
I personally think, when you join the PDGA they should also send you a copy of the rule book..IMHO




They do, and have been for several years now as part of your new member package.

The problem is not many players CARRY their rule book in their bag. So players let others call "non-rules" rules on them, because no one in the 4 or 5 some has a rule book.
I would venture to say judging from the 25-30 events I play or run in a year that only 10% of the players in a tournament have a current rule book on them.



That is not quite accurate. NEW members get a rule book. Renewing members do not.

discette
Jun 18 2008, 09:19 AM
That is not quite accurate. NEW members get a rule book. Renewing members do not.



If you look closely at Keith's post he says:


They do, and have been for several years now as part of your NEW member package.

beren
Jun 18 2008, 12:13 PM
Speaking of caddies and calling "fools" violations:
http://sports.aol.com/fanhouse/2008/06/1...ce-to-fan-on-9/ (http://sports.aol.com/fanhouse/2008/06/14/adam-scotts-caddie-dispenses-some-vigilante-justice-to-fan-on-9/)



LOVE your comment to that article, Chuck!

Mark_Stephens
Jun 18 2008, 12:37 PM
That is not quite accurate. NEW members get a rule book. Renewing members do not.



If you look closely at Keith's post he says:


They do, and have been for several years now as part of your NEW member package.





Invisible Ink... It gets you every time! :D:D