Last year I was in this tournament, and playing this one hole that was 1000 ft., the fairway was shaped like a double S, and OB, on a slant, with OB to the left. I ended that hole in one round with a Triple Circle 10. The par on the hole was 3. My question is, when you miss a hole, or dont play it, you get Par +4, so next time I'm facing something like Trip. Circle 10, or anything above 7, can a player just pick up his disc, go to the next hole and take the 7 instead of risking further harm to his score?

Last year I was in this tournament, and playing this one hole that was 1000 ft., the fairway was shaped like a double S, and OB, on a slant, with OB to the left. I ended that hole in one round with a Triple Circle 10. The par on the hole was 3. My question is, when you miss a hole, or dont play it, you get Par +4, so next time I'm facing something like Trip. Circle 10, or anything above 7, can a player just pick up his disc, go to the next hole and take the 7 instead of risking further harm to his score?



Where do you see in the rules or who told you that if you don't complete a hole you get par + 4? Thats another one of those non-rules rules that gets passed around until it seems true, but never is.

Except for being late at the beginning of the round, and getting a 4 throw penalty added to par for each hole that your group has started and you aren't at the tee to play in order, you MUST complete every hole. No picking up to save face or throws or anything else.

If you pick up without holing out and recording your true score...your round is over. And your tournament is over.

Did I say I read it in the rules? No. I am asking this question based on the rule of receiving Par +4, and am wondering if it applies to all holes you can play during a round, or ones you just miss prior to a round.

803.13 Holing Out
A. A player who fails to play any hole or fails to hole out on any hole during the round may be disqualified, at the discretion of the director, using the following guidelines:
(1) Holes missed due to late arrival may be scored and penalized according to section 804.02.
(2) Inadvertently failing to hole out (as determined by a majority of the group or an official) shall result in 2 penalty throws being added to the number of throws plus penalty throws already taken on the hole. The hole shall then be considered completed.
(3) Intentionally failing to hole out (emergency, injury, plane flight, etc.) constitutes withdrawal from competition. The player shall be withdrawn from competition and officially listed as �Did Not Finish� on the scorecard and in the event results.

:D

803.13 Holing Out
A. A player who fails to play any hole or fails to hole out on any hole during the round may be disqualified, at the discretion of the director, using the following guidelines:
(1) Holes missed due to late arrival may be scored and penalized according to section 804.02.
(2) Inadvertently failing to hole out (as determined by a majority of the group or an official) shall result in 2 penalty throws being added to the number of throws plus penalty throws already taken on the hole. The hole shall then be considered completed.
(3) Intentionally failing to hole out (emergency, injury, plane flight, etc.) constitutes withdrawal from competition. The player shall be withdrawn from competition and officially listed as �Did Not Finish� on the scorecard and in the event results.

:D



Thank you. That's all I needed to know. And thank you for not being rude about it either.

And the TD should be penalized for not listing this hole with a par higher than 3.

And the TD should be penalized for not listing this hole with a par higher than 3.



Shocked me too! If it was a Par 5 I wouldnt have felt so bad, but a Par 3? Needless to say, but I was like WTF!?!

If this was listed as a par 3, and I was a rec player starting my round on this hole I simply would wait at the next teepad and act perplexed when my group arrived five minutes later.

If this was listed as a par 3, and I was a rec player starting my round on this hole I simply would wait at the next teepad and act perplexed when my group arrived five minutes later.



This was the 2nd hole I played during the round, and there was an official there to spot where discs landed OB, and I asked him if this was a Par 4 or 5, and when he said 3 I was like "Why is this a Par 3? This is ridiculous!" and he was like "It doesnt matter what the par is. It's about total score." Obviously he wasnt thinking about round ratings.

"It doesnt matter what the par is. It's about total score." Obviously he wasnt thinking about round ratings.



Ummmm.... Par has nothing to do with round ratings, or SSA, or anything. It is a frame of reference; that's it. The ONLY thing it is useful for is if someone is late to start a round...And maybe to mess with you. :o

Krupicka has it right. Par Schmar. Par is just a convention that makes it easy to total scores at the end of the round for the math challenged.

...when you miss a hole, or dont play it, you get Par +4...



This looked to me like you stated this as fact. I was asking where you got this information. Not rudely, just simply.


Did I say I read it in the rules? No. I am asking this question based on the rule of receiving Par +4, and am wondering if it applies to all holes you can play during a round, or ones you just miss prior to a round.



You said, "Based on the rule of receiving Par +4"...Let's look at what that rule says, then:

"804.02 Beginning Play

"A. Shotgun Starts (rounds where several groups start simultaneously): At a scheduled time, scorecard(s) shall be distributed to the player listed first on each hole. After the cards have been distributed, groups shall be given adequate time to reach their assigned teeing areas. A loud noisemaker, such as an air horn, shall be used to indicate that there are two minutes remaining until tee off. This signal shall be a series of short blasts. At this time, players are to end practice and all practice shots and move promptly to their teeing areas. A throw by a player between the two minute signal and the start of the round shall receive a warning if observed by two or more players or an official. After being warned, subsequent throws by the player during this period, if observed by two or more players or an official, shall result in one penalty throw added to the player�s score, regardless of the number of throws. An extended blast of the noisemaker begins the round and signals the scorekeepers to call the throwing orders. If a player is not present to throw when it is his or her turn, the scorekeeper shall allow 30 seconds. If the player has not thrown after the 30 seconds has elapsed, a score of par plus four is to be entered for that hole. This procedure continues on any subsequent holes for which the player is absent. No holes shall be replayed. If a complete round is missed, or if a player does not finish a round, the player may, at the discretion of the director, be disqualified.

"B. Staggered Starts (rounds where groups start one after another on a certain hole): The player shall start at the time announced by the director. Players may practice until their group prepares to tee off provided their practice does not distract players on the course. If a player is not present to throw when it is his or her turn, the scorekeeper shall allow 30 seconds. If the player has not thrown by then, a score of par plus four is to be entered for that hole. This procedure continues on any subsequent tee offs for which a player is absent. No holes shall be replayed. If a complete round is missed, or if a player does not finish a round, the player may, at the discretion of the director, be disqualified."

So, the answer to part of your question is that only missed holes at the beginning of the round are penalized with the Par + 4 penalty. (And note that it is the missed TEE shot that determines if the hole is played, in other words, a player can't arrive as his playing companions are preparing to throw their fairway shots and say, "let me tee off real quick and catch up.")

The other part of your question was answered by Magilla, earlier in the thread. Pick up to avoid a poor score on a hole, and you get to go home. My apologies if you thought I was 'rude' in my earlier reply, but those are two pretty basic principles of play that a Certified Official should know.

Very few Certified Officials can quote the rulebook chapter and verse. It's always prudent to get the book out and read the pertinent sections when you have a question. There are some basic overriding principles that are well known, though, and its a good idea to get those straight in your mind.

Best wishes.

"804.02 Beginning Play

"A. Shotgun Starts ...If a complete round is missed, or if a player does not finish a round, the player may, at the discretion of the director, be disqualified."



So what options does a TD have other than DQ? What have TDs actually done if a player does not finish a round?

"804.02 Beginning Play

"A. Shotgun Starts ...If a complete round is missed, or if a player does not finish a round, the player may, at the discretion of the director, be disqualified."



So what options does a TD have other than DQ? What have TDs actually done if a player does not finish a round?



Good question, Mike.

My thought on this is that a player that does not finish a round or misses a complete round may be recorded in the tournament report as having withdrawn from the competition voluntarily.

A player that does not complete a round by not finishing a hole, under the mistaken concept that he/she would get a 'par + 4' penalty, would be viewed as trying to circumvent the rules and thus be disqualified, and the tournament report would reflect this.

The recording of a score of 999 in a tournament report does not reflect anything other than that the round was not completed.

So what options does a TD have other than DQ? What have TDs actually done if a player does not finish a round?



One related aspect of this rule is when a player qualifies for a final 9 but might miss their flight if they played it because the event is going longer than expected (5-somes, weather delay, etc). I have seen where the TD has given him 4th place and let him go and not play. I've also seen it where the TD gave him 5th and let the person who just missed qualifying for the Final 9 the 4th spot in the finals.

I'd like to see a better way of handling it when players have to withdraw with holes remaining in the final round rather than DNF as the primary option. The problem would be distinguishing between legit reasons for having to go such as medical emergencies or flights versus stopping play to preserve their rating.

The money awards in our sport are still too small for players to have to rearrange flights. And many times, it wasn't the player's fault they have to leave because an event is running long. Not sure what's fair but allowing the TD the discretion for using (appropriate) par+4 would seem fair for these situations.

So what options does a TD have other than DQ? What have TDs actually done if a player does not finish a round?



One related aspect of this rule is when a player qualifies for a final 9 but might miss their flight if they played it because the event is going longer than expected (5-somes, weather delay, etc). I have seen where the TD has given him 4th place and let him go and not play. I've also seen it where the TD gave him 5th and let the person who just missed qualifying for the Final 9 the 4th spot in the finals.

I'd like to see a better way of handling it when players have to withdraw with holes remaining in the final round rather than DNF as the primary option. The problem would be distinguishing between legit reasons for having to go such as medical emergencies or flights versus stopping play to preserve their rating.

The money awards in our sport are still too small for players to have to rearrange flights. And many times, it wasn't the player's fault they have to leave because an event is running long. Not sure what's fair but allowing the TD the discretion for using (appropriate) par+4 would seem fair for these situations.



i disagree. medical emergency, flight, or just plain quitting is all dnf and should be treated the same. it is the player's fault if they have a flight booked too early, events can and do run long for any number of reasons and it should be the player's responsibility to take that into account. i can see the rationale for allowing a player to not play a final and take the last spot among those qualified as that is effectively a completely different round.

i can see the rationale for allowing a player to not play a final and take the last spot among those qualified as that is effectively a completely different round.



Except that players who DNF the last round of a regular event do not get paid so this is an exception to the regular rule.

I would think you would be in favor of DNF instead of par+4 for players arriving late then since certainly a player who injures their hand or obviously gets sick during a round (such as my heart attack at league in 2001) has a more legit reason than the player who may have been irresponsible and arrived late yet still gets to play and record a round?

the reason they don't get paid is that they haven't finished in a paying spot- if the whole field were getting paid through some anomaly the situation would then become analogous to a qualified finalist leaving (assuming all finalists getting paid).

actually i would be in favor of eliminating the par +4 thing entirely and treating latecomers as dnf. imo the reason shouldn't really matter. seems to work for golf.

actually i would be in favor of eliminating the par +4 thing entirely and treating latecomers as dnf. imo the reason shouldn't really matter. seems to work for golf.



And thus the reason why our parameters are different. With the large payouts at stake in ball golf, there's significant financial justification for being in attendance. In our sport, the players who are late have made the investment with little likelihood of covering their entry fee PLUS trip expenses so we cut them a break on being late. Likewise, the same option should be available to those who cannot complete the round (with good reason). The financial impact of those reasons is higher than the likely payouts such as paying an extra day's lodging to take a flight the following day to make sure you can complete the round, especially when weather delays or TDs packing the field with 5-somes might be the cause of the problem.

actually i would be in favor of eliminating the par +4 thing entirely


Would certainly remove the main reason we need to discuss par... :D

If this was listed as a par 3, and I was a rec player starting my round on this hole I simply would wait at the next teepad and act perplexed when my group arrived five minutes later.



This techinically would be illegal too, however, just impossible to prove.

I heard this happened a few years ago at the worlds with some women. The lady took a 7 on her first hole and then showed up for the 2nd hole and got the best score on the hole she missed simply b/c they got 8's and 9's.

And the TD should be penalized for not listing this hole with a par higher than 3.



Yup. Clearly they should look at the scoring average of the hole and get the par from that. *sarcasm off*

Since they likely didn't have scoring average info, they could use common sense or the designer's intent and still be closer.

No need to worry about that +4 if the TD hold an A-tier for you.
but, that doesn't happen, does it?

I think that if you leave prior to the end of a tournament, you have voluntarily withdrawn from the event.

I would expect that if you are in a position where a cut has been made, you can do no worse (or better) than the last place of the cut level.

I don't see anything in the rules that specify that winnings are forfeit except in the case of a disqualification.

Section 1.10.C.2 of the competition manual states that players that leave before the distribution of prizes do not relinquish the prizes, and it could be stretched to cover this as well.