One thing I have noticed with a lot of events is that people have a tendency to play down a division just to "cash out" and make themselves feel good. For instance these 2 guys I know would probably be rated about 940 or so but due to their lack of membership in the PDGA that continue to be allowed to play in tournaments for a higher price although they usually blow away all others in the tournaments by 5 or more throws per round. I am more into promoting the game and players like this along with people who let this happen are a reason a lot of people I know do not compete in tournaments as it would be a waste of money. some TDs see these guys do this multiple times in a year and still either do nothing or can do nothing about it I am not sure which.

Also if a TD sees a 15 on any hole and the hole was not 700+ feet long and played by a junior under the age of 10 it should send up a red flag.

Anyone have suggestions as to stopping these people from playing down/sandbagging? If so I would love to see your ideas posted.

The solution is the TDs. If players are not members, they can allow them to play only in Advanced or even Open. The PDGA rule is there to support the TDs making this call. But if they don't do it, only local pressure might change their behavior. That's not to say the PDGA can't encourage them to improve their non-member division assignments. But our TDs offer their services mostly free to run events for members. We appreciate what they do and they are already asked to do much in terms of PDGA admin work compared with non-sanctioned events.

If you look at actual stats, there are probably 10 times as many players playing above their division than the handful of non-member sandbaggers TDs allow to possibly play in a division below their skill. There are usually many paid places in a division. Not sure why players would consider it a "waste of money" to enter if one or two sandbaggers entered? Are tournaments a "waste" if you are playing with a few better players in your division?

I'm not sure what you base a lot of events on as you are a new member, but congratulations on being part of the solution by joining the PDGA and hopefully establish a rating for yourself soon.

If you come up to Lombard this coming weekend for the IOS, you will not find much sandbagging (if at all). Find me at the tournament I can explain what additional steps we take to limit the problem.

Leonardi, which events have you seen this happen? As Krupicka said, the TDs in your area seem to do a pretty good job getting players in the proper divisions.

Sandbagging was a huge problem here in BG last year among several non PDGA members. Some were clearly at an Adv. level or higher Int. level. They would go play tourneys with us, and compete in the lowest divisions they could because they knew they would win or at least place in the Top 3 and win some good prizes. Lately though, they've finally started playing in the right divisions, and are having just as much success. Even though some of us still play separate divisions, most of us enjoy competing with each other, and trying to always best one another, and IMO, this has caused alot of people here to move up.

But as for TD's allowing sandbagging, even I am guilty of it. I am friends with pretty much all the disc golfers here in BG, and we all play together on a daily basis, and when I ran an event, I knew for many it was their first tourney. They certainly didnt understand the pressure tournies can cause, and while I knew I would be allowing them to bag, I also knew they would be [censored] off as hell if I forced them to move up. It was more of not wanting to get into a conflict, because if you [censored] of one person, they'll start telling their friends what you've done, and they'll be [censored], and get others [censored] at you. People, and TD's just dont want to anger the masses, even if you know you're robbing someone of their potential first win by allowing someone to bag, esp. if its a friend.

If someone has not played in a sanctioned tourney yet there is no way to say how they'll do. Let the player decide what division they're comfortable with. Worst that happens is that an ADV player wins intermediate. After that the player will have a rating and have to move up. I think that the system works really well with respect to this and there are many more people that whine about sandbagging because they want a better shot in their division than there are true sandbaggers.

I think that a lot of this sandbagging talk comes out of the fact that the sport is growing and the demographics of it are changing. Here in Florida you can look at statistics as recent as 5 years ago and notice a huge difference in where people played based on their rating. Intermediate used to be almost all sub-900 players, basically people who just began competing. Advanced players were mostly in the 925-945 range and were either people who had won intermediate or new players that showed talent. Anyone who showed any capacity to score low was then considered a pro. It had been that way for a while.

Now things have changed vastly. Most intermediate players in Florida have been playing the tour for at least a year, most much longer. This is the largest division and it contains very few true beginners. Most have ratings above 900. One local guy named Karl Pinturich takes loads of crap because he has been playing forever and still plays intermediate, winning a couple times this year. He doesn't dominate, but his position angers many people who still feel intermediate is a learner division. I don't have a problem with him b/c his rating allows him to play intermediate. He probably sees that the intermediate division in FL is becoming more competetive and he is not necessarily.

Five years ago the Adv division looked like today's intermediate division with a player or two that were better than everyone else. Today the advanced division is so skilled and competitive that the top 50% would have been pressured into moving up to pro 5 years ago. That top 50% all have the ability to shoot 1000 rated rounds and do so on occasion. Most the top players lack the consistency to break even in OPEN though.

So I think that a lot of the people who cry "sandbagger" are using old standards that do not take into account the growth and development of the sport.

I base my "lot of events" on about 2 years of just watching tournaments, playing with people that compete in those tournaments both PDGA members and non members. watching the non-members brag about their wins and how they are allowed to play down a division for a slight extra fee.

I moved to this area from michigan recently to this area back in october. So I cannot say much for the same around this area except for hearsay. I will be unable to play IOS @ Lombard although I do want to because I will be in Michigan this coming week for my younger bros graduation. However, I will either be playing kirkland or firefighters on the weekend of the 7-8 of June and will try to be getting out to more IOS events this year. However, I hear this may be the last year for the IOS so I hope if it is another culb or group of people step up to run some sanctioned events in the area in 09.

This will be the first year I compete in tournaments so we will see how close I am to where Ithink I am. earlier this year I would have said novice because the lack of putting performance however I am probably more rec/intermediate at this point after some major changes in my game over the last 2 months. Again we will see.

Non-Member Baggers??
At our last one-day C-Tier, we had 29 non-members (charity endowment tourney). Many were confused and concerned over choosing the correct division. The TD staff guided them as best we could. Got most placed well. Missed maybe 3.

The Intermediate winner was an unrated non-member. As should be expected, we all celebrated his win. He shot well.

But, as a semi-responsible TD, I am sending a note about our non-member players to area TD's. Hopefully our data will help them continue to choose the right division. The long and short of it is -- TD's call. Buds get over it.

Member bagging?? Pretty hard to do with the upper rated divisions; Intermediate and Advanced. IMHO, The recent ratings breaks are wonderful.

The 935+ break for Advanced seems to be working well. Great place for the up and comers. And the tighter packed Intermediate 900-934 division shows to be a large and most competitive bunch.

And since nobody asked --- while the new division numbers seem to be on target, the names are near about stoopid.
Got no idea why we held on to the name of Intermediate. As others have mentioned, long-time players fall in this division and tend to HATE the name.

And good luck trying to explain to a new player (or non-golfer) the difference between the words, Recreational and Novice.

I despised the names so much -- that on our last tourney, we used our own names; Gold, Blue, White, Red, Green, etc. Not very creative, but at least I felt better !!

Thanks
Ron Pittman


BTW, I hope someone smarter than me is working on some new division names.

This is not a problem where you live. If you look at tournament stats for the last half dozen PDGA tournaments in northern Illinois, the lower divisions are consistantly being won by PDGA members with ratings.

I doubt that it is much of a problem anywhere else. There are so many players playing up a division, players winning in the lower divisions only create an illusion of bagging.

If you are talking about Josh Schiro, where you used to live, he seems to have overstayed his time in Rec. last year, but now he's playing Intermediate. He would have been moved up at the IOSeries after his wins in the spring of 2007. The Flying Saucer series used to have a series season rule allowing players to play the entire season in a division even if they improved.

Other than him, the other non-members in the lower divisions in SE Michigan tournaments last year were throwing scores similar to the best members in those divisions. So that seems to be the definition of not bagging.

where the bagging really comes in is allowing masters players to flip flop between masters and open depending on their presumption of how they will play relative to the open competition. for instance check the results from the masters cup in santa cruz in the grandmasters division. a 1000+ rated player in grandmasters?!?!?!?

There are 50+ year olds in the ball golf Champions Tour that still play and cash on the PGA Tour for big events. Are they so good that they shouldn't be allowed to play on the Champions Tour?

a 1000-rated disc golfer is a 1000-rated disc golfer, no matter how old or of what sex.

This is a good example of why our sport can't consistently be compared with ball golf. We have a different classification system. While I like the ratings system, I don't think that age-based protection should be allowed in the same competition structure as skill-based. Too many things are different between the two sports to just say "well, ball golf does it and so should we".

we have ratings. let's use them. regardless of age. if you are good enough, per your rating, to compete on a certain level there should be no protection offered. i am just tired of seeing two tiny divisions, open and masters, at local tournaments when they can be combined according to skill.

this isn't isn't just for masters, it includes the grocery boy division of advanced masters, the double-baggers.

Not sure who you are complaining to? The TDs and clubs can run ratings based events.

i'm not complaining to anyone. this is a thread about sandbagging right? just pointing out where i see it.
sure, local clubs can run ratings based events, but most are more worried about putting on a well run event than trying to be overly innovative. and the pdga norm is not ratings based events.
this is the "competitive" enviornment that we have created by allowing such things to happen.

I would say ratings based is not the norm in most sports. The competition structure we have is more typical with age and gender divisions while at least trying to overlay skill levels on that at least for the players under 40.

but you have to see the problem inheirent in the system when, at a NT event, someone wins a protected division by 15 strokes.
http://pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=7284#Grandmasters
this score would have won him the division he was seeking protection from and placed him very well in the division they were seeking protection from.

If big added money was there, all of the top older players would be playing Open. But with no spectators resulting in minimal sponsorship $$, pros are mostly swapping each other's money. So, why not increase your payout chances and play in your age bracket?

You are giving someone grief for playing in an age protected division at a tournament where that's half the point? Get real.

but you have to see the problem inheirent in the system when, at a NT event, someone wins a protected division by 15 strokes.
http://pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=7284#Grandmasters
this score would have won him the division he was seeking protection from and placed him very well in the division they were seeking protection from.



Sorry, but I still don't see the problem. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the division is there to find out who the best player over 50 is right? Well he was. How many shots he was better by is pretty irrelevant...

One of the assumptions with recruiting older or for that manner any player to enter Open is that the payout will be better. That's only true if there's no added cash. However with added cash, the first place payout will be better with fewer players not more. If anything, placing a restriction on who can enter Open will actually help the top players in the B tiers and higher that have to add cash.

Of course if you're an Open pro and not at the top, increasing the number of donators will increase the payout to lower places. So recruiting older top players should be seen for what it is which is a thinly disguised attempt to increase a lower rated pro's chances for cashing.

In the case of C-tiers where there's no requirement for added cash, it seems most top older players do actually play Open. If there were a place to force these older players to play up, it would be when there's no added cash. C-tiers would be good candidates for ratings based events. In fact, since there's no added cash, it would seem there's little justification for pro fields at all in C-tiers and they should be Am divisions only.

Joshua,

Have to disagree (with what you've written). Bernhard Langer is ranked 118th in ball golf. There are about 116 1000-rated dg'ers. BH is over 50. He sometimes plays the senior tour and sometimes the regular tour. So what's wrong with competing "in both"? God bless him if he's good enough at 50 to compete with everyone. He should be able to reap the benefits of his "anomalous-ness" (...a just coined word). And then there are the really good AM-for-life ball golfers who are always in contention for the US Amateur (Dick Sideroff comes to mind) - and thus the Pro vs Am thing. Your "We have a different classification system." is not really an accurate statement. Seems pretty similar to me!

Karl

if the open division is the "showcase" division and we are trying to draw in sponsorship, and with their name their cash, then shouldn't ALL added cash go to that division. that would surely draw competitors from many divisions.

to answer the question of why someone should move up if there is no incentive...because this is a COMPETITIVE sport. shouldn't we seek to be challenging ourselves at every possible turn. accepting protection, when one is good enough to compete at higher levels just seems to go against the nature of sport.

Five years ago the Adv division looked like today's intermediate division with a player or two that were better than everyone else. Today the advanced division is so skilled and competitive that the top 50% would have been pressured into moving up to pro 5 years ago. That top 50% all have the ability to shoot 1000 rated rounds and do so on occasion. Most the top players lack the consistency to break even in OPEN though.


Five years ago? I think its more like three years ago. I played for the first time in the early spring of 2005 and by my perceptions during the timespan between two and three years ago I would have been forced up to Open long before I reached my present rating. Things have evolved incredibly fast. Two-plus years ago 955 meant you were overdue to move up around here. Now? If you're in Open at 955 you're going to be donating.


-Chris.

if the open division is the "showcase" division and we are trying to draw in sponsorship, and with their name their cash, then shouldn't ALL added cash go to that division.



That's the fallacy. We need to draw spectators and the sponsorship will follow with much less effort. And yet, some pros think the sponsors should be putting out money just because they are good. Strangely, you don't see hardly anyone truly making efforts to get spectators. Those who have done so like Harold at the USDGC have still had limited success even with concentrated efforts over the years.

if the open division is the "showcase" division and we are trying to draw in sponsorship, and with their name their cash, then shouldn't ALL added cash go to that division.



That's the fallacy. We need to draw spectators and the sponsorship will follow with much less effort. And yet, some pros think the sponsors should be putting out money just because they are good. Strangely, you don't see hardly anyone truly making efforts to get spectators. Those who have done so like Harold at the USDGC have still had limited success even with concentrated efforts over the years.



I agree that it is a fallacy. I think that people need to look at who would the "spectators" be? Amateur players that is who! You are not going to have members of the general public interested at all in watching a tournament. How many non-golfers sit down and watch a tournament? Not that many, of course there are some but the majority of them play the sport. So, IMHO you need to develop MASSES of amateur players to develop a true spectator base. Who else is going to care about Feldberg or the new Innova disc that is in his bag? Who would care more: the guy that you work with or your disc golfing buddies?

So we've segued from talking about non-existent baggers to talking about non-existent spectators. Even disc golfers won't watch the top pros at disc golf tournaments, except for when they are the prize-hostage-spectators who have to wait five hours for their payout.

How does any of this help all those courses being overrun by heards of unruly unicorns?

Bruce hit it on the head. How can we expect spectators to come out to a disc golf course to watch a tournament when there is a chance that they could be run through by a unicorn?

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c275/markthehammer/untitled.jpg

Being "run through" by a unicorn isn't actually the issue since much more damage is done by just the big things running into a crowd of people and everyone having to scatter. The corn itself isn't really much of an issue when it comes to the unicorn. Rarely do people get "run through" -- often they do get "run over" though. Just as a heads up remember to fall and lie flat because a hooved animal like a unicorn does not like stepping on you when they're running.

-Paul

Wasn't sandbagging allowed by the Association with the AMnesty act of 2007? Guys that has previously dominated the Advanced AM division that were not happy due to not cashing enough against the pros were allowed to go back to Advanced AM and dominate again, provided the put their intentions in writing to the Association. I've seen plyers rated 970 win in Advanced this year after accepting lots of $$ in their "pro" career.

If the Association will allow paying members to do this, then why try and bully non-members into higher divisions based on what the TD feels is the true level of their game. Isn't that a double standard, or is playing in whatever division you feel like a "benefit" of membership.

Playing in the division of your choice within the confines of the PDGA ratings format is a benefit of PDGA membership at IOSeries tournaments.

If you believe we truly have Pros and Ams in the sport then philosophically it's not sandbagging to be "Am for life." I think the concern initially expressed to start this thread was nonmembers with Advanced skills playing in our ratings capped divisions like Rec or Intermediate, not our Advanced division which is essentially "Open Am."

Wasn't sandbagging allowed by the Association with the AMnesty act of 2007? Guys that has previously dominated the Advanced AM division that were not happy due to not cashing enough against the pros were allowed to go back to Advanced AM and dominate again, provided the put their intentions in writing to the Association. I've seen plyers rated 970 win in Advanced this year after accepting lots of $$ in their "pro" career.

If the Association will allow paying members to do this, then why try and bully non-members into higher divisions based on what the TD feels is the true level of their game. Isn't that a double standard, or is playing in whatever division you feel like a "benefit" of membership.



The PDGA did not allow sandbagging. They recognized a negative growth in participation amoung a key group of players and made policy in an attempt to retain their participation. Less good players competing in tournaments is bad for the sport no matter how you frame it and a lot of good players were quitting. And I don't know if it is drastically different in other parts of the country, but NOBODY DOMINATES in FL in ANY division except for Ken Climo and Harry Bowerman (71 yrs old Pro Legend). Many players have taken amnesty and are golfing and having fun again after getting burned out of playing pro and losing, including friends of mine. None of these guys are dominating...honestly how can you dominate Advanced? You don't win ADV tournaments playing 970 golf, so even 970 players must play above themselves to win. And if any of these players do dominate a tournament or two, their rating will be like 980-990 and then they will be sandbagging...but anyone who plays that well rarely has issue going pro. The players that took amnesty are more often players that are capable of playing at a high level, but due to whatever still play very poorly for stretches as well.

I think that ADV is becoming a division of not only up and coming pros, but experienced players as well who may be "Ams for life". You can't make a living disc golfing, so most of the really good 20 somethings who spend all day everyday playing are going to peak and have to get a real job. This makes it hard to take your game to the next level, which is an ever increasing benchmark.

These 20 somethings that hang out on the disc golf course all day every day playing for money should be considered PROs. Players that have full-time jobs and work 40 - 50 hours a week do not want to play against these guys in the AM or even Adv Am divisions. Most of these young guys are not even rated because they are not PDGA members. I know the group on my home course plays 3 to 5 rounds a day 5 to 7 days a week. I call them sandbaggers.

These 20 somethings that hang out on the disc golf course all day every day playing for money should be considered PROs. Players that have full-time jobs and work 40 - 50 hours a week do not want to play against these guys in the AM or even Adv Am divisions. Most of these young guys are not even rated because they are not PDGA members. I know the group on my home course plays 3 to 5 rounds a day 5 to 7 days a week. I call them sandbaggers.




You call them sandbaggers but most Pros would call them scrubs and they wouldn't hang with the big boys. Sorry but they are still AMs.

It isn't about playing everyday either. I know a lot of good players who pretty much just play tournaments.

I thought the playing for cash defined PRO. They play disc golf for a living. however meager the income, its how they pay the electric bill and feed themselves.

I thought the playing for cash defined PRO. They play disc golf for a living. however meager the income, its how they pay the electric bill and feed themselves.



They hustle for a living. I know guys like that...most of them play a lot of poker too. Disc golf is just one of their outlets.

I thought the playing for cash defined PRO. They play disc golf for a living. however meager the income, its how they pay the electric bill and feed themselves.




Yeah but betting while playing doesn't make you a Pro. Heck I played for sidebets when I probably wasn't even rated 900 so did that make me Pro? Nope, I was just an Am playing other AMs for a few bucks.

Your right, they are hustlers and they do play poker.

Okay so, what is with the people with ratings being allowed in lower divisions?

Example this year kiswakee classic a 913 rated player took #1 in Novice. Seems a little fishy to me. By know people should know how he "plays" considering the guy has been around awhile too. Should he have not been playing Intermediate?

Also he was involved in setting the tournament up. I mean come on. If he part of the tournament coordination someone there should have known better.

when was the event? he could've become 913 since then. the ratings on the tournament results page show current rating not rating at time of event.

I find the discussion of sandbaggers fascinating. It seems player are alway hunting for anyone who they can call a sand bagger. I don't play enough to take the time to understand ratings. I don't make many tourneys, although I really enjoy them!

My rating is 822 and that is after I finished 10th and 7th in some local events, as an intermediate player.

the event was June 7th this year

I always enjoyed the term sandbagger... it made me feel good to hear guys [censored] at me to get out of their division.

... not that I'll ever hear it again, all I'll ever get from now on is "donator" lol

I always enjoyed the term sandbagger... it made me feel good to hear guys [censored] at me to get out of their division.

... not that I'll ever hear it again, all I'll ever get from now on is "donator" lol



and the not so sparatic "one eye"

You're not allowed to mock me until you either learn to spell or install spellcheck in your browser, "Rodster."

That bagger was at the IOS on Saturday (playing in his proper division). FWIW He was given a lot of grief by a number of us in the scoring tent. There was no excuse for a TD to allow a 913 rated player (now 897 after the update) to play in the novice division for ANY reason.

Like was said over on the "Reporting a TD for Rules Violations" thread. Send a message to the Tour manager and file a complaint with him.

btw Seeing you are in Naperville, we should do a round together sometime.

the event was June 7th this year

I could explain how it was that he was allowed to play in a division below his rating, but not on this message board. Telling you the truth about the player or the TDs might be regarded as a personal attack. :D

I know that we had the potential for 'baggin' at the Quinvitational this year when the PDGA sent us a Players List from the wrong region.

.

Ok so, what is up people that don't know the rules and come here on this message board and complain?



That's in the SOP for the message boards.

There are 50+ year olds in the ball golf Champions Tour that still play and cash on the PGA Tour for big events. Are they so good that they shouldn't be allowed to play on the Champions Tour?



Fred Funk comes to mind. Do you know last week he hit 92% of the fairways?

The true test is what percentage of holes he hit for less than par? ;)

There are 50+ year olds in the ball golf Champions Tour that still play and cash on the PGA Tour for big events. Are they so good that they shouldn't be allowed to play on the Champions Tour?



Fred Funk comes to mind. Do you know last week he hit 92% of the fairways?



Fred Funk always hits lots of fairways. He was always one of the shortest hitters on the tour as well. The guy was so good at hitting fairways he used to try and hit mowed walkways at the US Open when the carry distance on some of the longer holes was too long for him. And he could hit those walkways.

Chap

You can't fix this, but there's some easy steps to encourage proper entries.

Local Pressure

TD's - if somebody has skills and is entering a lower division, either due to blatant sandbagging or unfamiliarity with the divisions, just tell them that you believe they have the skills necessary to compete at a higher level and "Invite" players to move up to a higher division.

Pay less to lower divisions. Intermediate and Rec player's should not recieve a whole lot of payout. Those are the guys that are competing for fun and are scoping out the competition to move up. If they complain about the lower pay out, all you have to do is say those two magical words... move up!

Clone Krupicka. But don't steal ours.