Brought up on another forum, but thought it interesting to bring up here for national discussion.

We all see it, some have done it etc. A guy/gal makes a bad putt, bad throw etc, they pick up there mini and chuck it down field or at the basket.

What rules does it violate if any, and what penalties would you issue?

1) extra throw (1 stroke)
2) courtesy violation (1 warning)

Actually it isn't an extra throw because the mini isn't considered a disc legal for play.

Secondly the first courtesy violation is a warning not an automatic stroke

Practice Throw: During a round, the projection of a disc of a distance greater than two meters, or of any distance toward a target, intentional or not, which does not change the player�s lie...

The definition of a practice throw doesn't exclude a mini simply because such a disc isn't approved for play, rather it includes any disc shaped object (at least from the way I interpret it). There is no definition of the term disc in the definition section that would change the meaning to exclude non-approved discs.

I think that seeing as the player threw the mini disc, then it would clearly fit the definition of disc as used in the definition of practice throws.

While we're discussing this scenario though, how about this one. Seeing as a mini marker is an illegal disc, if thrown, would a person who did this more than once be subject to disqualification under 802.01 E? (I decided that the 2 stroke penalty embedded in this rule could not apply since it is for carrying an illegal disc, and the act of carrying a mini isn't illegal)

Wrong, as a mini IS NOT a disc.

I'll bring 100 crappy cd's to a tournament and throw them one by one, and all you could do would be to call me for a courtesy violation, because even though they are discs(and disc shaped), they are NOT discs legal for play and there is no way you could interpret it as such to call it a practice throw. (Note to self - find out which event he's the TD of, and pack cd's in suitcase :D)

804.05 Disqualification and Suspension
A. A player shall be disqualified by the director for meeting any of the necessary conditions of disqualification as set forth in the rules, or for any of the following:
(1) Unsportsmanlike conduct, such as; loud cursing, throwing things in anger (other than discs in play), or overt rudeness to anyone present

804.05 Disqualification and Suspension
A. A player shall be disqualified by the director for meeting any of the necessary conditions of disqualification as set forth in the rules, or for any of the following:
(1) Unsportsmanlike conduct, such as; loud cursing, throwing things in anger (other than discs in play), or overt rudeness to anyone present



You made bold the part that matters, as I will be laughing when I throw the cd's, which is not in anger. :D

NEXT!

Keith, you'd be littering. :)

804.05 Disqualification and Suspension
A. A player shall be disqualified by the director for meeting any of the necessary conditions of disqualification as set forth in the rules, or for any of the following:
(1) Unsportsmanlike conduct, such as; loud cursing, throwing things in anger (other than discs in play), or overt rudeness to anyone present



glad you pointed this part out... a buddy of mine threw his putt... made it... turned around and tossed his mini back towards his bag (~10') and someone tried calling him for practice throws. What it came down to was this portion of the rule and since it was done w/o anger he was fine

this is an interesting rule though... whats to keep someone from sitting near the tee (if theres a backup or something) and taking his mini and throwing it towards a tree in a putting motion?

I am sure tongue was firmly in cheek as it is pretty clear that the CD situation would apply to the phrase "overt rudeness". I think the courtesy warning on the first such throw would make sense and all but the most bullheaded would avoid the penalty.

804.05 Disqualification and Suspension
A. A player shall be disqualified by the director for meeting any of the necessary conditions of disqualification as set forth in the rules, or for any of the following:
(1) Unsportsmanlike conduct, such as; loud cursing, throwing things in anger (other than discs in play), or overt rudeness to anyone present



glad you pointed this part out... a buddy of mine threw his putt... made it... turned around and tossed his mini back towards his bag (~10') and someone tried calling him for practice throws. What it came down to was this portion of the rule and since it was done w/o anger he was fine

this is an interesting rule though... whats to keep someone from sitting near the tee (if theres a backup or something) and taking his mini and throwing it towards a tree in a putting motion?



But.... A mini is not a disc in play

you are allowed to throw discs in anger as long as they are in play... you just cant throw other things in anger.

so if you throw something in anger one time you could be disqualified? and is that only if the TD saw it? and what about kicking a stool or something?

i hear people (including myself) yell "loud obscenities" all the time. so if you yell the F word after a bad shot, you could be DQ'd?

so if you throw something in anger one time you could be disqualified? and is that only if the TD saw it? and what about kicking a stool or something?

Only the TD can disqualify anyone. But he does not have to see it to disqualify you for it.

Is that correct, Bruce? I thought a non-playing official had the power to DQ a player (I've been to an event where that happened).

DQ is *almost* always at the TD's discretion, although I have to say that most TDs are too lax about things like this. Try dropping an overly loud F-Bomb as a spectactor at a PGA event and see what happens. That's not nearly as bad as what would happen to a player.

Sportsmanship is heavily underrated. I don't think I'd have a problem DQ-ing someone for the reasons set forth in that rule. As long as it actually bothers someone or is witnessed by two players (who are then willing to testify in tell-the-TD court) or one official... I think a DQ is appropriate. Even if it doesn't bother anyone... throwing a metal mini against a brick wall or chucking a tripod chair up into a tree after missing a shot is ridiculous. I'm glad there's a rule that provides a way to eliminate that type of behavior during a tournament.

right, because with out rules how would we know how to act :D/msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif ;)

I was using "TD" to mean "the Director." Under the rules, only the Director is granted the authority to DQ anyone. The Director is

"Director: The person in charge of the
tournament or event. The term 'director'
may be used to refer to the tournament
director or the course director in multisite
tournaments. The Director may
designate an official to rule on appeals."

Tournaments don't always go by the rules. And the rules might be superseded by the Competition Manual. You could check that to see if the Marshal has DQ power.

...Tournaments don't always go by the rules. And the rules might be superseded by the Competition Manual. You could check that to see if the Marshal has DQ power.



I've had to DQ people twice at two different events while I was marshal. It matters if the TD has ceded the final rules calls to the marshal, as the definition states, whether the marshal has that authority. In either situation, the TD would of had to DQ the players for their rules violations if I hadn't. :(

Oh, here it is. The Marshal has unspecified powers relating to rules interpretation and rules enforcement in the NT contract between the host club and the PDGA. So the Marshal arguably does have the power to DQ someone.

It is nice to know that as an assistant TD and certified official I don't have the power to DQ anyone at an IOS tournament. I don't really want to DQ anyone. If something DQ-worthy occurs, I'm fine with merely having the power to bring it to Jon's attention.

DQing someone is not something I enjoy doing but was a necessary thing that had to be done. Cash accepting pros couldn't play Am then and don't ask a Marshal "What ya goin' do about it" when you pop a CFO in front of them after asking for a ruling during the finals of a Worlds event :o

It would have been nice to have someone else do it, but you have to stand up for the rules :), not many will!

right, because with out rules how would we know how to act :D/msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif ;)


touche ;)

right, because with out rules how would we know how to act :D/msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif ;)


[censored] ;)



For real.

How about when a missed putt falls next to the basket; then is picked up without being marked and slammed across the chains without ever leaving the hand and stuffed back in the bag? I watched this during a final 9 at a PDGA event. The player was quietly warned by aonther player in the group.

800 Definitions
Holed-Out: A term used to signify completion of a hole. A player has �holed-out� after the removal of the at rest disc from the chains or entrapment area of a disc entrapment device or after striking the marked area of the designated object target.

803.01 General
E. Warnings. A player shall not receive a warning for a rules violation unless the rule specifically provides for a warning. Warnings do not carry over from one round to the next round or to a playoff.

803.13 Holing Out
A. A player who fails to play any hole or fails to hole out on any hole during the round may be disqualified, at the discretion of the director, using the following guidelines:
(1) Holes missed due to late arrival may be scored and penalized according to section 804.02.
(2) Inadvertently failing to hole out (as determined by a majority of the group or an official) shall result in 2 penalty throws being added to the number of throws plus penalty throws already taken on the hole. The hole shall then be considered completed.
(3) Intentionally failing to hole out (emergency, injury, plane flight, etc.) constitutes withdrawal from competition. The player shall be withdrawn from competition and officially listed as �Did Not Finish� on the scorecard and in the event results.

The player shouldn't have warned them. They should have added 2 strokes or DQ depending on how "inadvertant" or "intentional" it was.

When I get chain slappers in my foursome i just tell them, "This is PDGA sanctioned. You have to actually hole out."

I think you could treat it as a violation of the marking rule and just give them a warning if they have not thrown on the next hole.

[quote(1) Holes missed due to late arrival may be scored and penalized according to section 804.02.
(3) Intentionally failing to hole out (emergency, injury, plane flight, etc.) constitutes withdrawal from competition. The player shall be withdrawn from competition and officially listed as �Did Not Finish� on the scorecard and in the event results.



[/QUOTE]

These are the 2 rules that seem silly to me. You can be late by one+ basket(s) and usually only get a 4 stroke penalty per basket missed but if you leave one basket early you're DQ'd. I've posted it before but it still makes me scratch my head. It doesn't make any sense to me except for the fact that it is the path of least resistance. If the guy gets there late no one wants to DQ him but if he left no one cares because he's gone? Make it one way or the other not both.

The difference has to do with implied intent. If you're late, you wouldn't do it on purpose, even if your starting hole was tough (assuming par was set properly). It was either accidental or not paying attention. If you leave early, it is either a deliberate choice or injury. If your injury is bad enough to quit, the implication is you wouldn't be able to continue the event anyway if there were additional rounds.

Have to agree with Paul...they should (both cases) be treated the same. "Intent" shouldn't be strong enough (in this case) of a factor to determine the difference (and have one scored one way and the other the other way). A missed hole is a missed hole. And beside, can anyone name another sport where "missing part of the competition" is treated in such a "civil" (read: trivial) way? If you're triple-match point up in tennis and slip and break an ankle, guess what, you lose the match! You're up on every judge's card after 11 rounds and don't answer the bell, guess what, you lose. Etc.

Besides - and another related question (I don't know the answer) - what would happen if a player (and his whole group for that matter) unintentionally didn't finish (i.e. play the last hole - maybe on a course no one was really familiar with)?

Karl

Besides - and another related question (I don't know the answer) - what would happen if a player (and his whole group for that matter) unintentionally didn't finish (i.e. play the last hole - maybe on a course no one was really familiar with)?


You would think that when they went to add scores, they would notice that they are one hole short and go play it. If it was the last hole, no foul. If it was one in the middle, it would be +2 for playing the course out of order.

I'm with Karl in that it doesn't make any sense.

A guy parties too much the night before and oversleeps -- wasn't his intention, I know, but he still did it. He's late and misses the first basket. He's given a 7 for that basket. Wins the tournament by one and gets paid.

Another guy -- same tourney. Has to leave before he could play the last basket because of a family medical emergency. He was beating the hungover guy that won by 20 at the time. Gets dnf'd. ??

Seems silly. It's OK to slack and be a little late but you can't be responsible and leave . . . ??

Rules like this are bt far the worst part of disc golf

Mike,

I hear what you're saying, but I was more specifically referring to this scenario: A group plays 18 holes (1-18) of a 19 hole course (1-18, and 18a) - a temp hole specifically set up for that tournament. They all add up their 18 hole scores, agree with everyone's, and turn them in. 35 minutes later, the TD's scoring help finally get through the stack of cards and notice this "total omission of playing 18a by 1 group" (whom have split for lunch to parts unknown).

Karl

the "course played out of order" rule to me is a bit tough. I've personally been in a B-tier event where there was no course map, no sign pointing to the next teepad, no teesigns at any of the alternate holes, and the progression of alternate holes did not follow the logical progression of the walking path. There was no group in front of us whose example we could follow. My card was stroked 2 strokes for mistakenly playing C before B. This happened through no fault of our own, but the rule requires a penalty. Now, I'm not complaining... especially since it was years ago... but the rule should allow for exceptions, IMO.

the "course played out of order" rule to me is a bit tough. I've personally been in a B-tier event where there was no course map, no sign pointing to the next teepad, no teesigns at any of the alternate holes, and the progression of alternate holes did not follow the logical progression of the walking path. There was no group in front of us whose example we could follow. My card was stroked 2 strokes for mistakenly playing C before B. This happened through no fault of our own, but the rule requires a penalty. Now, I'm not complaining... especially since it was years ago... but the rule should allow for exceptions, IMO.



once we saw a card play from the wrong teebox, the td did not penalize them, he said it was his fault that the teebox wasnt covered or that there was a sign to better guide them to the right pad. i agreed with that, but it seems like he used his judgement instead of automatically stroking them. (ps, they played a harder teepad that wasnt suppossed to be played due to water flowing over the teepad) ;)

Mike,

I hear what you're saying, but I was more specifically referring to this scenario: A group plays 18 holes (1-18) of a 19 hole course (1-18, and 18a) - a temp hole specifically set up for that tournament. They all add up their 18 hole scores, agree with everyone's, and turn them in. 35 minutes later, the TD's scoring help finally get through the stack of cards and notice this "total omission of playing 18a by 1 group" (whom have split for lunch to parts unknown).

Karl



If the TD did not have custom score cards made with 18a clearly denoted on the card, then I think the TD would just have to follow the rules explicitly and give them all a 2 on the hole. (803.13.a.2 and 801.04.b.5.3)
If it wasn't the TDs fault, his option is 2 on the hole or DQ or something else in between (including replay) that seems fair to him. I would do replay+2.

Mike,

Yeah, I know - the TD has a lot to do (to prep for the tourney) and may forget this type of detail. And maybe I'm just grumpy today (pulled a back muscle in the shower this morning) but I think we have to write our rules to fit all scenarios - even to cover the ones in which it may be a little too harsh (for that specific situation), otherwise we'll have WAY too many rules (for all the very specific situations that COULD occur) and we'd never be able to navigate through them all when we need to. It may be cruel but simplicity usually is the best.

Karl

804.05 Disqualification and Suspension
A. A player shall be disqualified by the director for meeting any of the necessary conditions of disqualification as set forth in the rules, or for any of the following:
(1) Unsportsmanlike conduct, such as; loud cursing, throwing things in anger (other than discs in play), or overt rudeness to anyone present



the problem with this rule is the word SHALL, that would mean a td was obliged to, in other words had to, dq someone for cursing loudly, in TX that would be half of the contestants :Dit should be may, or has the right to, or something like that. the rule should be there in case a td needs it for some jerk who is out of control. but it should be up to the TD (because really it all ready is no matter what the rule says)

Just a sidenote, I think in real golf you can be stroked for hitting objects that resemble golf balls, like a pine-cone or something.

DQ is *almost* always at the TD's discretion, although I have to say that most TDs are too lax about things like this. Try dropping an overly loud F-Bomb as a spectactor at a PGA event and see what happens. That's not nearly as bad as what would happen to a player.

Sportsmanship is heavily underrated. I don't think I'd have a problem DQ-ing someone for the reasons set forth in that rule. As long as it actually bothers someone or is witnessed by two players (who are then willing to testify in tell-the-TD court) or one official... I think a DQ is appropriate. Even if it doesn't bother anyone... throwing a metal mini against a brick wall or chucking a tripod chair up into a tree after missing a shot is ridiculous. I'm glad there's a rule that provides a way to eliminate that type of behavior during a tournament.



Do you remember this quote from the current number one golfer in the world during a tournament recently?

"The next time a photographer shoots a f****** picture I'm going to break his f****** neck." - TW

I'm not so sure the PGA is as Nazified as you may believe. My guess is that the superstar players and the wealthy attendees would not have nearly the problems with bad behaviour as you or I would at a PGA event. Although, my guess is that Tiger's agents and sponsors did repremand him (carefully) after that incident.

Tiger got a very hefty fine for that outbreak also. PGA has very specific fines for behavior.