http://www.pdga.com/tournament/playerstats.php?PDGANum=33705&year=2008

Jeremy has taken Merch everytime he cashed. Now it is showing up as taking cash.

HOWEVER, someone dropped the ball here. I had someone take Merch at an event I ran this year in the pros and I noted this in the TD report - it is showing up as a denied cash on the official results.

The amount of problems this TERRIBLE rule will cause around worlds time is starting to show.

it's stupid because someone screwed up a TD report?

: ) :

Tournament Report was submitted correctly---I think, as it was noted in the proper section that he declined cash and took merchandise---but I'll follow up on it with PDGA to make sure they have it correct in their system.

There's a distinction as to whether the rule itself is bad, or the reporting system incorporating this change has a few bugs to be fixed (perhaps no more than clearer instructions for novice TDs?).

I wasn't calling you out Dave - I'm just saying stuff like this is gonna cause problems.

As this is a new provision, hopefully as it's used more and more, problems will be smoothed out.

Beyond the reporting/publishing error, I'm not sure where the rule caused harm, at least in this case. As I understand, Jeremy has been playing a short time, and is presumably retaining his Am status for a shot at Am Worlds in a few months. He has won and taken merch at 2 of my events---March Madness still shows as unofficial, perhaps due to the odd format. He could have just cleaned up in Advanced.

By playing Pro, he has
* Paid a higher entry fee
* Added to the Pro purse
* Added to the Pro field size
* Added good competition to the Open Pro division
* Gone home with merchandise

He could have
* Saved some of his entry fee by playing Advanced
* Added to the Advanced purse and Advanced field size instead
* Been in a non-competitive situation, for both himself and the rest of the Advanced division
* Gone home with merchandise

Plus---and I certainly applaud this---by playing Pro but taking merch, he helps the tournament's bottom line. (Since we throw a lot of money out of our pocket into March Madness, we're particularly grateful).

I wasn't calling you out Dave - I'm just saying stuff like this is gonna cause problems.



It was PB&Js "....someone screwed up a TD report" to which I referred. I screw up plenty, much of which I never get full credit for, but I want to avoid claiming credit where I don't deserve it.

(If I did screw it up, however, my defense is that I was busy defending course design, or a least a hole that wasn't designed for 30 MPH winds, while I was completing my first TD report for a normal tournament).

By accepting MERCH he is accepting payment!!! He is playing in the open division and cashing! Bottom line! worst rule Ive seen in a while.

By accepting MERCH he is accepting payment!!! He is playing in the open division and cashing! Bottom line! worst rule Ive seen in a while.



Where's the harm?

So he saves $25 on his PDGA fees (but has taken merch over some $500 in cash so far!).

So he plays AmWorlds once---does this make it one of the worst rules we've seen?

Better that he stays in Advanced, as before this rule? He'd still be "accepting MERCH' which is "accepting payment".

I don't know Jeremy but predict he'll have a lot of cashing in the Open Division in his future.

Better that he stays in Advanced, as before this rule? He'd still be "accepting MERCH' which is "accepting payment".



OR play Pro as an Am and receive <font color="red"> NOTHING </font> like the rest of us have ;)

BigJerm is very fortunate to have this rule apply when it did, but don't blame him for such a decision.

no kidding...def thought of you when they passed this rule Tradd... although I dont think Jerm would be able to swing the pay pro and donate deal like you did. he'd probably be forced to play adv and crush the field and get ripped on weekly for still playing Am.

I guess I don't see the problems that this rule is causing or why it is so terrible. Can one of its opposers please expand?

the rule was taken advantage of in the past.

A player went to am worlds like 3 years in a row finishing top 10 everytime and playing open the rest of the time taking merch and even winning some of the tournaments.

the rule was taken advantage of in the past.

A player went to am worlds like 3 years in a row finishing top 10 everytime and playing open the rest of the time taking merch and even winning some of the tournaments.



Wouldn't that be declining cash, not taking merch, as it's a new rule?

Such a player would have boosted both the Open Pro payouts or the tournament bottom lines, or both, while the only downside would have been pushing most of the AmWorld competitors one spot down in the final results. Gee, that's almost an argument for allowing Ams to take merch in lieu of cash in the Pro divisions.

I don't care one way or the other---it'll never apply to me---but I'm still having trouble seeing where this rule has done harm.

the rule was taken advantage of in the past.

A player went to am worlds like 3 years in a row finishing top 10 everytime and playing open the rest of the time taking merch and even winning some of the tournaments.



Again I do not see how this makes the rule stupid and/or terrible. At least the guy is not bagging in advanced anymore, he is adding to the open purse and attendance, and slightly easing the financial burden of the TD. Generally these are viewed as positives not only for the tournament in question but the sport as a whole.

The only possible negative that I see in your scenario is that the bagger in question is still allowed to play in Am Worlds...but who really cares about that? The rule is serving its purpose...ams are moving up.

That is what all of you middle of the road pros have been complaining about for decades.


Why again is the rule SO terrible?

the rule was taken advantage of in the past.

A player went to am worlds like 3 years in a row finishing top 10 everytime and playing open the rest of the time taking merch and even winning some of the tournaments.



Wouldn't that be declining cash, not taking merch, as it's a new rule?

Such a player would have boosted both the Open Pro payouts or the tournament bottom lines, or both, while the only downside would have been pushing most of the AmWorld competitors one spot down in the final results. Gee, that's almost an argument for allowing Ams to take merch in lieu of cash in the Pro divisions.

I don't care one way or the other---it'll never apply to me---but I'm still having trouble seeing where this rule has done harm.



it's not actually a new rule, it had been on hiatus for a few years. i support it, it allows players to maintain their eligibility without continuing to whip up on their local advanced fields, it gives players playing up incentive to play well, it allows tournaments to make a little more scratch from retail/wholesale differential in the payout. sounds like a win-win-win to me.

Isn't this a little unfair to the Pro player that might like to step back a bit?
Many of these "Ams" you write about are higher rated than a lot of Pros.
If any competitor is permitted to play in the Open division at half or reduced entry, then all competitors should be given the same opportunity. With the same choice in prizes.
BOB

Isn't this a little unfair to the Pro player that might like to step back a bit?
Many of these "Ams" you write about are higher rated than a lot of Pros.
If any competitor is permitted to play in the Open division at half or reduced entry, then all competitors should be given the same opportunity. With the same choice in prizes.
BOB



Where do they get reduced entry fees Bob? They should be paying the same entry as anybody else within the division unless they are playing trophy only, then they still get no merch.

I retract my statements and questions.
I was confusing the trophy only option in with this discussion.
Thanks for pointing me clear.
Bob

Where do they get reduced entry fees Bob?

At the Illinois Open Series. Pros who want a reduced entry fee can have one too. It's not trophy-only. It's just the option to spend half as much and play for half as much.

Wow Bruce,

I was unaware of such options. But still has a reduced payout, similar but not exactly the same as trophy only. I'm not aware of anybody running tournies down here with that option :cool:

It's cool to learn about the differing ways TDs try to get good players to play up in the fields they should be playing in or are trying to play in anyway :D:D

the rule was taken advantage of in the past.

A player went to am worlds like 3 years in a row finishing top 10 everytime and playing open the rest of the time taking merch and even winning some of the tournaments.



Who was this person Robert? Don't give me "like" in your answer, give me proof.

Wow Bruce,

I was unaware of such options. But still has a reduced payout, similar but not exactly the same as trophy only. I'm not aware of anybody running tournies down here with that option :cool:

It's cool to learn about the differing ways TDs try to get good players to play up in the fields they should be playing in or are trying to play in anyway :D:D

We're offering "Half-In" in the pro divisions this year instead of trophy-only. You can pay half the entry fee. You count as half a person for determining the number paid. If you cash you get half what it says on the payout formula. The other half generally would go to the highest full-in cashing place as a bonus. At our first tournament doing this two Super Ams playing Open cashed, half-in, they took prizes, first and second got a cash bonus, and everyone was happy. Sometimes for the top players trophy-only feels like it is taking money out of the pool, but this system feels like the top players earn a bonus for having schooled the half-ins who did well. It seemed to work well for encouraging several of the amateur players to play Open on Saturday against the best. I'm not sure whether they came back on Sunday to play Advanced.

The TD report does not support this as an option. Jon will have to calculate the average entry fee and report that as the entry fee paid by everyone for the TD report to handle the cash received section properly.

The payouts will look screwy. If the payout was supposed to be:

200 150 <font color="red">125</font> 100 80 70

But the red was half-in, you're going to get a payout like

262.50 150 62.50 100 80 70

And you have to track who is half-in and then adjust your payout at the very end. So it is a pain in the butt. But Jon and I need to do something to keep pushing the format envelope and this seemed like an interesting experiment. :D

I was wondering how much of a headache that'd be for the TD especially if it's a sanctioned event with the reporting, fees. etc..

Thanks for the info Bruce :cool:

the rule was taken advantage of in the past.

A player went to am worlds like 3 years in a row finishing top 10 everytime and playing open the rest of the time taking merch and even winning some of the tournaments.



Who was this person Robert? Don't give me "like" in your answer, give me proof.



And honestly, who cares if it was just 1 person doing that?

Wow Bruce,

I was unaware of such options. But still has a reduced payout, similar but not exactly the same as trophy only. I'm not aware of anybody running tournies down here with that option :cool:

It's cool to learn about the differing ways TDs try to get good players to play up in the fields they should be playing in or are trying to play in anyway :D:D

We're offering "Half-In" in the pro divisions this year instead of trophy-only. You can pay half the entry fee. You count as half a person for determining the number paid. If you cash you get half what it says on the payout formula. The other half generally would go to the highest full-in cashing place as a bonus. At our first tournament doing this two Super Ams playing Open cashed, half-in, they took prizes, first and second got a cash bonus, and everyone was happy. Sometimes for the top players trophy-only feels like it is taking money out of the pool, but this system feels like the top players earn a bonus for having schooled the half-ins who did well. It seemed to work well for encouraging several of the amateur players to play Open on Saturday against the best. I'm not sure whether they came back on Sunday to play Advanced.

The TD report does not support this as an option. Jon will have to calculate the average entry fee and report that as the entry fee paid by everyone for the TD report to handle the cash received section properly.

The payouts will look screwy. If the payout was supposed to be:

200 150 <font color="red">125</font> 100 80 70

But the red was half-in, you're going to get a payout like

262.50 150 62.50 100 80 70

And you have to track who is half-in and then adjust your payout at the very end. So it is a pain in the butt. But Jon and I need to do something to keep pushing the format envelope and this seemed like an interesting experiment. :D



I vote for Bruce to run our competition committee. Like him or not, you have to admit he comes up with some excellent ways to get people involved!

Lyle,

Which Brakel came up with the idea? I give props to both :D

The payouts will look screwy. If the payout was supposed to be:

200 150 <font color="red">125</font> 100 80 70

But the red was half-in, you're going to get a payout like

262.50 150 62.50 100 80 70




i dont know... looks like fuzzy math to me. if that person put 1/2 the $ in then where does the extra 1/2 come from that goes to 1st place?! moreover... if you have more than a few in the field doing the 1/2 in option instead of fully paying then it would change the entire payout structure w/ less money in the pot wouldn't it? (ie. 10 pros paying $50 = $500... 10 pros but 3 are 1/2 in = $425 right? and of course even less since you still have to pay the same players fees/etc for the 1/2 in person as the full person)

of course the 2nd example is based on the assumption that the 1/2'ins would pay full price... i understand the intent is that you are getting people to play pro that wouldn't otherwise.

We used to do this in reverse.
After entry fee, if you chose, you could put in an extra fee to a superpot that would pay out only to those players.
So if 1st was not in the superpot he/she would get paid normally, if 2nd was in, he/she would get paid out normally and get 1st place of the extra monies. Kind of a group side bet.

I think since the PDGA has been fine with the one, they should be fine with the other. I think we did not want to advertise a $25 Open entry fee and have the other $25 in the fine print. It made more sense to advertise the $50 entry fee with $25 Half-in in the next column and explain half-in halfway in the fine print. :D

The subtle difference is how the cash is distributed. With half-in, the top players get the extra. With a superpot sidebet, it's spread out.

I guess I don't see the problems that this rule is causing or why it is so terrible. Can one of its opposers please expand?



??I cant seem to find the "ams playing Pro and taking Merch" rule on the PDGA site??

I know I saw it somewhere...I wish that site had an easier way to find specific docs, etc.

:confused:

The payouts will look screwy. If the payout was supposed to be:

200 150 <font color="red">125</font> 100 80 70

But the red was half-in, you're going to get a payout like

262.50 150 62.50 100 80 70




i dont know... looks like fuzzy math to me. if that person put 1/2 the $ in then where does the extra 1/2 come from that goes to 1st place?! moreover... if you have more than a few in the field doing the 1/2 in option instead of fully paying then it would change the entire payout structure w/ less money in the pot wouldn't it? (ie. 10 pros paying $50 = $500... 10 pros but 3 are 1/2 in = $425 right? and of course even less since you still have to pay the same players fees/etc for the 1/2 in person as the full person)

of course the 2nd example is based on the assumption that the 1/2'ins would pay full price... i understand the intent is that you are getting people to play pro that wouldn't otherwise.

The example was a hypothetical based on 14 in for full at $50 and one in for half at $27. I didn't get the payout off the charts. I just used some round numbers that added up to $725 from 14.5 players. I also didn't back out the $2 fees. Sometimes we do. Sometimes we don't. Kind of depends on what cash sales and course use fees are and whether I remembered to put it on the cheat sheets.

So, for Stack's benefit, the 1/2-in player hypothetically finished third and the payout would be $125 if he were in for full. Since he was 1/2-in, he gets half, $62.50. The other half gets added to first. The total payout is still $725. there's no fuzzy math there.

We had more than a few doing the half-in thing at IOS 1. It might have been 5 or 6 of 32. And for us, 32 is huge attendance in Open. Last year, same course, same weekend, we only had 19. Half-in not only drew in extra ams, but it also drew in extra pros who wanted that am "added cash."

To not water down payouts we treated each half-in as half a player on the payout chart. We had two 1/2-ins cash so both first and second got a bonus. The players getting the bonus had no problem with getting a bonus. The players just below them seemed to like the idea that the bonus was there if they had played better. The half-ins liked the idea that there was an affordable way for them to play pro.

One way this concepts beats trophy-only or ams-turning-down-cash is that with either of those concepts, the last cashing player usually is long gone by the time we do awards ten minutes after the last card comes in. We were paying X players. He was X+1. See ya. Keeping track of that money and getting it to him is always a pain. With half-in the money goes up, not down, and first place never seems to split before collecting. :D

The Ams taking merch rule is in the Competition manual:

2.3.B.2 An Am player is automatically re-classified as Pro when the player has accepted cash while competing in a Pro division. Accepting prizes in lieu of cash or accepting money for winning an ancillary contest such as an ace pool does not cause a player to relinquish his or her amateur status.

I have responded to this before and I guess like a lot of posters, you get tired of seeing the same thing dredged up year after year......

Quite a few "amateur" events payout in merchandise, including but not limited to, golf, bowling, fishing, some softball leagues, etc. Some, such as ball golf even have rules as to the maximum amount an amateur can receive in cash. I believe it is less than $750, but someone may need to correct me on that. So the argument that amateurs don't win merchandise is not valid. That is unless you are pointing back to collegate sports, such as public and private school athelitic programs. Colleges don't pay for their atheletes (oh except for scholarships, cushy jobs, dinners, free gear, etc.). So really the concept of amateurs receiving merchandise is not unique.

My main concern with the no payout concept is that TD's will not be able to pull off the events if they cannot pay wholesale, payout retail. Making ends meet wihtout this scenerio is nearly impossible. I take that back, we could reduce the sponsorship money going to Open divisions to cover costs, but no, we need to pump up that figure. If Disc Golf had higher payouts to Open players, we would attract more coverage.

You may think that I TD for the money, but since I lost money for the first couple of years as a TD that wouldn't make any sense. I am now breaking even on my events, that is if you assume that working for less than $0.90 per hour is breaking even and if the payout to amateurs was not in place I simply would not be able to afford to run events. Now don't get me wrong, it is a labor of love, but if I don't break even, I will not be doing it again, says the boss (er, uh, wife that is).

The complaint was not that Ams playing in Am divisions are receiving merch.

It is that Ams pay in the Pro divisions, place in the cash, accept merch in lieu of cash, and retain their Am status.

Not MY complaint, mind you, as I have no problem with it. But the theme of this thread wasn't that Ams should be true Amateurs. That topic, as you mention, has been touched on before.

P.S. The posting error that launched this thread---from the Stoney Hill Challenge---as been corrected.

Oh, uh, well, then...... nevermind....

:confused:

But it was well-written. I suggest saving it for re-use....you KNOW the topic of True Amateurism will show up again sometime.

This is the 21st century and with online auctions and such ams accepting merch is the same as cash! If an Am can place in a Pro tourney then he/she plays at a pro level. There should be a rule that if you accept merch in a pro event, you are allowed to play 1 Am worlds, 1 Am Nationals, and 1 World doubles. No two, three, four years of practicing with pros and then competing w/ ams on a national scale.

Here is the deal.
I like this rule reversal for alot of reasons but the main reason is this.
I play in lots of am divisions but at a LOW C tier 1 day event this rule allows me to play in the pro master division . I have a 944 rating and have never shot a 1000 rated round . At low c tier on day events if i play good enough I could get last place cash and get a few prizes.
However playin a C tier as an AM is baggin as I have been told many times over the years .
Different places of the country have different ways of handleing things

Here is the deal.
I like this rule reversal for alot of reasons but the main reason is this.
I play in lots of am divisions but at a LOW C tier 1 day event this rule allows me to play in the pro master division . I have a 944 rating and have never shot a 1000 rated round . At low c tier on day events if i play good enough I could get last place cash and get a few prizes.
However playin a C tier as an AM is baggin as I have been told many times over the years .
Different places of the country have different ways of handleing things

I think having choices is good. It increases participation. I don't think we should worry so much about artificial distinctions between pro and am. If a person's rating says they belong in a division, they should be allowed to play in that division. If their rating says they are donating, and that's what they want to do, so be it. If the PDGA is going to say, "But if you shoot the round of your life and finish in the cash, we'll let you take prizes and stay am for Worlds," so what?

The utility of these rules lies in whether they increase participation. We've figured out how to increase participation in the IOSeries with these rules. They work for us.

Within a calender year, they should be able to accept cash and play am worlds. If not, then NOT! One or the other. I think its silly and unfair to those who never got cash for their achievements. If they want to go to amworlds, then they should sacrifice.

Eat your own dumb vegetables and let other people decide what suffering they need to do.

personally I dont accept cash ( and would take prizes in lieu of ) at C TIER events when ( our I should say if since as of this time I have finished one below payout in both events I play pro masters in ) cause I want to play in am worlds .
I do it cause there is NO cap on advanced and PRO masters divisions . See at one day C tiers in my area we have a bunch of over 40 players with WAY HIGHER player ratings then I and they normally play OPEN at C tiers . THEREFORE when I move up to pro masters I am effectively playing against players of like ability ( 940-975 ish AND WHO ARE OVER 40 YEARS OLD )

Lets assume that I would accept cash at a low level C tier event for last place cash , Then I am stuck as and advanced player where )some 18 year old can out gun my by 300 ft a throw or I am playing pro masters forever and playing against 1000 rated players and I have never shot a 1000 rated round . Point is I want protection due to the fact I am over 40 and not highly rated enough to compete with some others who are . What the PDGA has done is that except they should still put ratings caps on all divisions at alll PDGA events .

One thing you might need to consider is that some people need to keep their am status in order to play sports in college. They would love to step up and play open but, would risk loosing their athletic scholarships. In this case it would be worse for the player to bag the am division.

Not.

One thing you might need to consider is that some people need to keep their am status in order to play sports in college. They would love to step up and play open but, would risk loosing their athletic scholarships. In this case it would be worse for the player to bag the am division.



I dont believe that applies... when I was in college we had someone on the XC team that had 'cashed' in bowling tournaments as a pro bowler and he was fine... I believe he said its ok as long as its not in the same sport

i believe it depends on the scholarship.

: ) :

i'm pretty sure nikki ross, who won a couple of am world championships, could not turn pro as it would've messed up her scholarship to play basketball in college. lafsaledog would likely know as she was from his area.

That's why Jeremy Bloom had to give up playing football for Colorado because of money from skiing and sponsorships

I thought she was on a lacrosse scholarship but this is the story that we have been told . I have not understood what one has to do with the other except some sports have different " am status " then others . However as I have said she could not play OPEN or PRO divisions and accept cash in disc golf or she would loose her " am status " in her college and her scholarship .

That's why Jeremy Bloom had to give up playing football for Colorado because of money from skiing and sponsorships



Actually it was the sponsorships, not the skiing. He could have still played football as a walk-on if he chose to give up his sponsorship money.

Ricky Williams was a walk-on at UT because he played minor league baseball in the Phillies organization during the summers.

http://www1.ncaa.org/membership/enforcement/amateurism/legislation/applicable_legislation

edit: better link

a pertinent quote:

" If a student-athlete has never enrolled full-time in any college, he/she may receive awards for athletics participation. The award(s) needs to conform to the rules of the amateur sports organization that governs the competition and cannot include cash. The awards presented to the student-athlete may include gift certificates and items that are not personalized, provided the awards are permitted by the rules of the amateur sports organization.

You may wish to consult with your high-school athletics director to determine exactly what type of award(s) you may receive. Please contact the NCAA membership services staff at 317/917-6222 should you have further questions. "