Something interesting came to my attention , and I wanted some feedback from the masses.

Would a religious influence in a disc golf club affect your willingness to participate in it's activities sanctioned or not .

We are not talking about hell-fire and brimstone. Basically the affiliation would involve sponsorship money and local promotion. You would essentially dictate your affiliation with the curch and their message .

Keep in mind , there would be no preaching ...


whadda u think ?

I personally wouldn't join a club that had a church affiliation but I have, and will again support a tournament that the profits go to a church (Shane's Java Classic). I thought the prayer (or whatever it was?) a bit out of place and I was thinking, is this a charity disc golf event or church outreach but I got over it (or over myself) quick. It was the first but not the last event I've played that had a prayer.

To put this answer in perspective. I do not like organized religion. If a church wants to do something positive with/for disc golfers I have no problem making it worth their effort by showing up.

I personally wouldn't join a club that had a church affiliation but I have, and will again support a tournament that the profits go to a church (Shane's Java Classic). I thought the prayer (or whatever it was?) a bit out of place and I was thinking, is this a charity disc golf event or church outreach but I got over it (or over myself) quick. It was the first but not the last event I've played that had a prayer.

To put this answer in perspective. I do not like organized religion. If a church wants to do something positive with/for disc golfers I have no problem making it worth their effort by showing up.



Allow me to clarify, the proceed's would not go to the church. It would go to the club the church is supporting .
The curch in topic wishes to see nothing in return but growth of the sport we love, and an interest from the community.

Thoughts ?

I think its a bad idea. If the course was on Church property: no problem, god knows they have enough land!

disc golf ain't the government, i would have no problem with it.

Take the money Lee!

I think its a bad idea. If the course was on Church property: no problem, god knows they have enough land!



Elaborate please. Keep in mind , the support is for the metro area courses, as administered by the club...

disc golf ain't the government, i would have no problem with it.



Funny

Take the money Lee!



Tempting , but the last thing anybody wants to see is a tournament headquarters fully stocked and ready to host an event , with no players due to conflicting religious ( or lack there of ) beliefs ....

I like disc golf more than I dislike religion... I would say take care what you get for a tourney stap but god (and my game) may not let me win any so...

I like disc golf more than I dislike religion...



Prolly the general consensus.....
I see more people at the course on Sunday morning than I should . Including myself.

Something interesting came to my attention , and I wanted some feedback from the masses.

Would a religious influence in a disc golf club affect your willingness to participate in it's activities sanctioned or not .

We are not talking about hell-fire and brimstone. Basically the affiliation would involve sponsorship money and local promotion. You would essentially dictate your affiliation with the curch and their message .

Keep in mind , there would be no preaching ...

whadda u think ?

Funny you should ask. Pastor Lyall keeps wanting me to start a church sponsored disc golf club. I keep thinking I've got enough on my schedule. And Lyall does not have enough money to be throwing it at peripheral things. And what does a disc golf club need sponsorship for? If a disc golf club needs some cash it can run an amateur-only tournament and resist the urge to throw the profits at the pros the following weekend. Unless that is what it needed the cash for! :D

This subject is definitely a good one and is one that i beleive will come up often as our sport grows. Respect for individuality and personal choice is what attracted me to the disc golf community and the exclusion of a group no matter what the affiliation, religious, political etc. would hinder the progress disc golf is realizing. I myself am not religious but can't deny the presence of a higher power and the positive changes I have experienced in my life having faith in this power or "GOD" if you will. Also I can't see anything bad coming from prayer, and if someone wants to express their concern for others safety and well being through "prayer" I say amen to that!!! Now shut up and throw :cool:

Something interesting came to my attention , and I wanted some feedback from the masses.

Would a religious influence in a disc golf club affect your willingness to participate in it's activities sanctioned or not .

We are not talking about hell-fire and brimstone. Basically the affiliation would involve sponsorship money and local promotion. You would essentially dictate your affiliation with the curch and their message .

Keep in mind , there would be no preaching ...

whadda u think ?

Funny you should ask. Pastor Lyall keeps wanting me to start a church sponsored disc golf club. I keep thinking I've got enough on my schedule. And Lyall does not have enough money to be throwing it at peripheral things. And what does a disc golf club need sponsorship for? If a disc golf club needs some cash it can run an amateur-only tournament and resist the urge to throw the profits at the pros the following weekend. Unless that is what it needed the cash for! :D



Well said. Profits , IMO, should go directly back to the community. Imagine if all the monies generated annually went directly back to the players , in the form of somewhere else to play. That is how you grow the sport.

Is the purpose of the club and or event to build relationships and hopefully lure some people to other church programs? If so i think thats a bad Idea. You would be better off incarnating in the already existing club. Your influence would be greater, and I'm sure the "- laborers are few" in that area!

Is the purpose of the club and or event to build relationships and hopefully lure some people to other church programs? If so i think thats a bad Idea. You would be better off incarnating in the already existing club. Your influence would be greater, and I'm sure the "- laborers are few" in that area!



so if a bar sponsors a disc golf club its ok unless they want to lure people to the bar or maybe even have them play on the bar softball team?!

church or bar sponsored DG... i'd be fine with either! ;)

and i do agree that if there already is a club that it may not make sense to start a rival one (if thats the scenerio).

church or bar


these are two totally different things in my mind. i would have to aggree with Clizark on this one. not to mention aren't you a pastor or something clark?

church or bar


these are two totally different things in my mind. i would have to aggree with Clizark on this one. not to mention aren't you a pastor or something clark?




LOL... not a pastor.

I think churches should sponsor clubs! They should just keep there programs out of it. Bars should sponsor clubs as well! I have no problems with bars Bellafesta R.I.P. I just have a problem with "Christian Clubs". They don't communicate the Gospel very well because of there exclusiveness.

church or bar


these are two totally different things in my mind. i would have to aggree with Clizark on this one. not to mention aren't you a pastor or something clark?




LOL... not a pastor.




then what are you? you have some affiliation with the church don't you?

I am a human.......

sorry couldn't resist that one..... he he he


I am on staff with the U.S Navigators, I could never be a Pastor, i like Discgolf on Sundays way to much.

I am a human.......


lol good one!

i like Discgolf on Sundays way to much.




amen brotha!

dont worry... it sounds like we agree Jason... what you're talking about is what I would compare to things that I witnessed (no pun intended) a few times in college (i went to Lynchburg College... near Falwell's Liberty University)... I saw a lot of times when you thought you were @ an event or whatever and it turned out to be ambush evangelism... unfort. it pushed me further away than it did to help. God was in my heart trying to talk but I couldn't hear him over the students preaching in my ears telling me I was going to hell.

long time no see BWD.. hope all is well on the other end of the state

Lynchburg college......hmmm I used to Sk8 there while I was at Liberty. This was before I got kicked out of Liberty University for not complying to the rules.

As far as getting pushed away from God, last time i checked He was "Omni Present" always present, around, with us. If thats true how can you move away from Him?

I here this kind of talk all the time from people. I am not trying to be a smart [censored] or preach I am just interested in where this thinking comes from :P

oh no... liberty kid... RUN! :P LOL

as mentioned... he was in my heart (and omni present) I just wasn't listening or didn't know what to listen for. For me it didnt help having people trying to push the gospel down my throat.

that being said... I can't fault anyone else but myself for my delay in coming to Christ.

There's a Casting Crowns song that serves as a reminder to me that sometimes the best way to evangelize is not to.

"People aren't confused by the gospel,
They're confused by us.
Jesus is the only way to God,
But we are not the only way to Jesus.
This world doesn't need
My tie, my hoodie,
My denomination, or my translation of the Bible,
They just need Jesus.
We can be passionate about what we believe,
But we can't strap ourselves to the gospels.
Because we're slowing it down
Jesus is going to save the world,
But maybe the best thing we can do
Is just get out of the way."

oh no... liberty kid... RUN! :P LOL

as mentioned... he was in my heart (and omni present) I just wasn't listening or didn't know what to listen for. For me it didnt help having people trying to push the gospel down my throat.

that being said... I can't fault anyone else but myself for my delay in coming to Christ.

There's a Casting Crowns song that serves as a reminder to me that sometimes the best way to evangelize is not to.

"People aren't confused by the gospel,
They're confused by us.
Jesus is the only way to God,
But we are not the only way to Jesus.
This world doesn't need
My tie, my hoodie,
My denomination, or my translation of the Bible,
They just need Jesus.
We can be passionate about what we believe,
But we can't strap ourselves to the gospels.
Because we're slowing it down
Jesus is going to save the world,
But maybe the best thing we can do
Is just get out of the way."



good point, even though I don't like casting crowns :) I like the idea behind it. Pushing the Gospel is not the Gospel at all! Its a shame that our "Christian Brothers and Sisters" do that. I see it all of the time here in Jacksonville. Good story though, i like how you said you were not listening or recognizing where God was during that time. This happens to me every day, which in turn makes the grace of God all the more necessary in my life.

I agree, you shouldn't "push" anything on anyone. All we can do is present it to them, we can't make them believe. "I can set the table, but I can't make you eat"

most competitors whether they say they have faith or not are internally saying a prayer with each huck of a disc, if sponsorship comes from an organized religion so be it . we need all the possitive sponsorship we can get. just listen at some of the awards recipiants at the tournys or sporting events many players give credit where credit is due.

most competitors whether they say they have faith or not are internally saying a prayer with each huck of a disc, if sponsorship comes from an organized religion so be it . we need all the possitive sponsorship we can get. just listen at some of the awards recipiants at the tournys or sporting events many players give credit where credit is due.




I couldn't agree more!

Take the money Lee!



Tempting , but the last thing anybody wants to see is a tournament headquarters fully stocked and ready to host an event , with no players due to conflicting religious ( or lack there of ) beliefs ....



Grow the sport, take the money! Just set the right boundaries with the generous church (after all, if they are truly 'giving' they would not expect the right to demand anything in return) and you'll be all set.

As far as keeping players away.....I don't know how many players would be offended by added cash whether it came from a bar or church or probably even the mob: added cash is good for players, good for attendence.

Now, if the objective was to take money away from players and give it to the church.....that might lower attendence and enthusiasm. Because when a club throws an event and snakes money off the top to support its own beliefs - whether the player holds these beliefs or not - especially if the 'donation' is mandatory, then players might have a problem with that, right?

Oh wait, all you have to do is choose a charity to give to and that makes it perfectly okay to give away player money by the fistful. Same concept, but the attitudes are so different - why the hypocrisy?

Take the money, grow the sport, support our players, BE the charity! After all, if you're a dedicated tourney player as an Am, woman, master or sometimes-cashing-pro, then chances are disc golf is a money-losing venture and charity begins at home.

Oh wait, all you have to do is choose a charity to give to and that makes it perfectly okay to give away player money by the fistful. Same concept, but the attitudes are so different - why the hypocrisy?





Since you asked, presumably, a charity, say March of Dimes, is spending money to help children with debilitating diseases with 100% of the money they take in. Churches, don't do that, even the charity they carry out can have the motive of attracting members to their church.

Now, if you're religious and play disc golf, this is fine, but if I'm donating to charity, say through ice bowls, I want to know that money is going to feed the poor, not into a pastor's pocket or to build a new church etc.

Churches that sponsor events aren't doing it just for kicks any more than any other sponsor is. They are doing it for the perceived benefit of spreading the word. That's hunky-dory if you support religion, but not if you're an atheist. My guess is that the observation that most will come for the added benefit of the added cash and will tolerate the proselytizing is right on. Don't be surprised if the more determined wear their get out the hemp shirts...

BTW - perhaps you should look up the definition of hypocrisy?

its fine for your to have your views/opinions lyle... but dont think that if i ever see you broken down by the side of the road and need help that i'm doing it to 'spread the word'... or if i'm donating to a dg tourney that its my motive either. my motives are to help try and better this world while we are here and I think thats the main motive of the churches i've been involved with. Sure a motive for one church could be to 'spread the word' (would it really be that bad)... but for another it could be they have a lot in the congregation that play DG and they want to support them. Like having a church softball, bowling team.

there are different sides/facets to just about everything (churches included) and broad sweeping generalizations are how the human mind likes to bunch things together to make it work out in our heads but isnt always the best way to deal with things.

the march of dimes (since you mentioned this one) doesnt have 100% going towards the kids or curing diseases... 82% goes to overhead. In that overhead is ... educating the public and spreading their word. This is actually common for most organizations like the american cancer society... susan g. komen, etc. Actually its kind of funny that they are called the march of dimes since only a couple diimes of every dollar makes it past overhead costs.

if someone doesnt support a cause a dg tourney is being run by/for then dont attend. my guess is most will attend for a few reasons... they like dg and could care less and some they find it a way to feel like they are helping and getting to play dg. An example is we have several ice bowl events... a few go to a local bird sanctuary... the rest to the food bank. I personally could care less about the bird sanctuary and think its a shame that all doesnt go to the food bank but i dont boycott... i play all and have fun.


besides... we are talking about 'curch' not church evidently! :P

Yes Stack,

But you missed the point. Someone commented that it was hypocritical to view a charity as different from a curch. I simply pointed out that they are different, whether or not the MofD is good at managing it's money, or a church is full of people who do nothing but good deeds more efficiently than any other organization, people view the two as different. Like it or not, religious or not, that is reality. More importantly, our government is based on the principal that they are different.

So, it is not hypocritical that they are treated differently, it is logical and based on the rule of law. I'm sorry that bothers you but you do live in a country where the founders felt there should be a separation of church and state. Now if you want to live in a country where the rule of law does not separate church and state there are a number for you to choose from. Iran, Saudi Arabia, and Iraq come to mind.

BTW - how much of the faith based initiative money went to non-Christian organizations? Did Judaism, Islam and other Eastern religions get a fair share? Since we are talking faith based charity... And if you're wondering why I ask this question, it's simple enough, the founding fathers felt there should be a separation of Church and State because they didn't feel the government should force people to observe one religion, say Catholicism, over another. The fact that our government is now giving money to faith based charities in a preferential fashion shows exactly why the founding fathers wanted them out of the game, period.

Most churches are like businesses anyway. They are run like businesses with the Pastor being the CEO and the deacons being the board. The real difference is that most churches lie more then regular businesses to make their money :o ..also, most churches also have a tax ID number-instead of a business license.

Nevermind

Lyle... you also forgot to mention that although separate (church/state) this country was founded on religion and the belief in God. Explaining why God is present in almost everything associated with the government.

The separation of church and state was to guarantee that the government couldnt mandate a particular religion or type of religion... they wanted to avoid the possibility of a theocratic state. They didnt want deacons or pastors picking the presidents of the US (was a real concern of that time). ... it wasn't to take God out of the government, just how we should praise/worship God.

And in case you decide to do some googling... no... God is not mentioned in the constitution anywhere... I also dont believe God was added to our money or the pledge until the 50s during the communism scare. It was always just assumed God was a part.

and dont worry... you're not ruffling any feathers here talking about religion... i personally have a strong distaste for 'religion' ... its just that you are spouting off broad generalizations steeped in very little fact. I would do the same if I was SwitzerDan ;) (sorry I missed you when you were in CLT Dan)

and dont worry... you're not ruffling any feathers here talking about religion... i personally have a strong distaste for 'religion' ... its just that you are spouting off broad generalizations steeped in very little fact.



Outstanding, a strong dis-taste for religion.I am saved, and also have that strong dis-taste. Well Put Stack.
The masses crowd in every Sunday morn and check their heads in at the door. They look like the bobblehead that sits on the dash board, shaking their little heads away...all the while thinking...hmm, I wonder where we're gonna eat lunch today.

Now, if you're religious and play disc golf, this is fine, but if I'm donating to charity, say through ice bowls, I want to know that money is going to feed the poor, not into a pastor's pocket or to build a new church etc.



BTW - perhaps you should look up the definition of hypocrisy?



Thanks, good suggestion:

HYPOCRISY: (or the state of being a hypocrite) is the act of preaching a certain belief or way of life, but not, in fact, holding these same virtues oneself. For example, a teacher telling students they should not plagiarize, while secretly being a plagiarist himself. Hypocrisy is frequently invoked as an accusation in many contexts.

For example, an organization or club telling people on a message board that no one should be allowed to give player money to a church, while running Ice Bowls or other charity events and making "mandatory donations" a prerequisite to play the event could definitely be considered hypocrisy.

Beliefs are beliefs, whether the belief is that money should be given to a church to a charity. You can't proclaim that one's motives are more noble than another: food banks feed people; churches run programs to feed people. They both buy post-it notes for their employees, they both have expense accounts, they both do some good things, some wasteful things.

Do you really think its a good idea to tell players, "If you don't hold this belief, then don't play this DG event."? I would assume PROMOTING attendence at tournies would always be paramount, not pushing "mandatory donations" (the biggest oxymoron since "jumbo shrimp") to promote your own sanctimony.

Again, why not keep charity at home? If you really want to 'support players and disc golf' then rather than giving out men's cut t-shirts to the players and a fat $5G check to a charity/church, you should help players make up travel costs so disc golf can become more self-sustainable.

I am an atheist. That being said, I think that it is important to reach out to Churches to help support DG. As far as events go, I attended a mini tourney last year that was held at and sponsered by a local church. It was wonderful. They let us use the lobby, got Starbucks and donuts for us, and were just all in all friendly and interested in the sport. The youth pastor competed and had a great time. Not a whisper about Jesus...but they didn't need to. The attitudes and generosity of the church folk achieved their goal--to show outside members of the community that may be looking for social/spiritual support that this church is full of friendly and accepting individuals welcoming you to join them. I was waiting for the "ambush", but it never happened.

This experience taught me to remember to hold myself to the same standards when it comes to pre-judgement that I do for religious organizations.

I am an atheist. That being said, I think that it is important to reach out to Churches to help support DG. As far as events go, I attended a mini tourney last year that was held at and sponsered by a local church. It was wonderful. They let us use the lobby, got Starbucks and donuts for us, and were just all in all friendly and interested in the sport. The youth pastor competed and had a great time. Not a whisper about Jesus...but they didn't need to. The attitudes and generosity of the church folk achieved their goal--to show outside members of the community that may be looking for social/spiritual support that this church is full of friendly and accepting individuals welcoming you to join them. I was waiting for the "ambush", but it never happened.

This experience taught me to remember to hold myself to the same standards when it comes to pre-judgement that I do for religious organizations.



More of this stuff and the world would be a better place!

Lyle... you also forgot to mention that although separate (church/state) this country was founded on religion and the belief in God. Explaining why God is present in almost everything associated with the government.

The separation of church and state was to guarantee that the government couldnt mandate a particular religion or type of religion... they wanted to avoid the possibility of a theocratic state. They didnt want deacons or pastors picking the presidents of the US (was a real concern of that time). ... it wasn't to take God out of the government, just how we should praise/worship God.

And in case you decide to do some googling... no... God is not mentioned in the constitution anywhere... I also dont believe God was added to our money or the pledge until the 50s during the communism scare. It was always just assumed God was a part.

and dont worry... you're not ruffling any feathers here talking about religion... i personally have a strong distaste for 'religion' ... its just that you are spouting off broad generalizations steeped in very little fact. I would do the same if I was SwitzerDan ;) (sorry I missed you when you were in CLT Dan)



I disagree with you Stack. I think that's exactly what they wanted to do. The founding fathers participated in many activities that they then constructed laws to prohibit. It is quiet clear that they were able to step beyond their own needs and desires to do what they considered right.

While many Americans including the founding fathers were religious, they understood that having religion connected with government, in any form, would lead to abuses. Better to keep the two disconnected and allow people to worship when and where they wanted on their own.

We can see what happens when you don't do this. The government shows favoritism in the issues they handle and support and in how they hand out money.

And by the way, I'm quite informed about the modification of our pledge. That however has nothing to do with the basic concept of separation of church and state. Furthermore, I'm quite aware that for well over 200 years, our legal system, both when conservative and liberal, has fully supported this fundamental principal. It has only been in the last 7 years that we have stepped away from that principal, a time during which our court systems have been increasingly pushed towards a more "conservative" stance. Those quotations don't mean just conservative, it means religious fundamentalist conservative.

Yes, but no where in there did you address the issue, that the church and other charities work on different models thus eliminating the charge of hypocrisy. Nice definition though.

BTW - no one said that anyone could or could not give money to any organization or that you had to play in any event that donates to maintain your membership. I think you overstate your case.

I don't have any problem with playing a church event or getting money from, I do have a problem with someone trying to convince me that if a church provides money for events that are open to non-church members that they aren't thinking about recruitment...

No comments.....I'm simply tired of reading a misspelled subject line.

I can't believe I missed this topic until now :)

I view it this way - a church *is* a business, like any other and organized religion is an industry like any other. Complete with lobbyists, profit, corruption, etc... but also good, charitable results in many cases.

I am not so arrogant as to assume that me putting a church's logo on a teesign is going to persuade a golfer to become religious any more than me putting the local cheeseburger joint's logo on there is going to promote an unhealthy diet. I say, let 'em advertise all they want. Just because they're a religion doesn't mean they have any less of a right to today's consumers. If sponsoring a DG tournament is a form of advertisement they choose, then great! We all win. just because a church sponsors an event does not mean that there has to be a dedication prayer or a "come to jesus" meeting between rounds.

That said... the churches should not be given preference above any other business, either. If a golfer is need of a church and patronizes the sponsor because of their advertisement, then mission accomplished. Same goes for the cheeseburger joint.

I recently had a tournament that was sponsored by a local church. The pastor there is a disc golfer who I consider a friend and he knows that I'm an atheist. His church graciously gave a couple hundred bottles of water (chuch logo'd) and some coolers (also logo'd) that I was more than happy to give to the players. I put the church's logo on teesigns and in the program. No muss, no fuss... they got their name out there as a supporter of DG and the players got to stay hydrated, free of charge. I wasn't asked to convert anyone or recite a special phrase over each basket while burning a particular incense. It was a simple transaction that benefited the tournament and the business alike.

I can't believe I missed this topic until now :)

I view it this way - a church *is* a business, like any other and organized religion is an industry like any other. Complete with lobbyists, profit, corruption, etc... but also good, charitable results in many cases.

I am not so arrogant as to assume that me putting a church's logo on a teesign is going to persuade a golfer to become religious any more than me putting the local cheeseburger joint's logo on there is going to promote an unhealthy diet. I say, let 'em advertise all they want. Just because they're a religion doesn't mean they have any less of a right to today's consumers. If sponsoring a DG tournament is a form of advertisement they choose, then great! We all win. just because a church sponsors an event does not mean that there has to be a dedication prayer or a "come to jesus" meeting between rounds.

That said... the churches should not be given preference above any other business, either. If a golfer is need of a church and patronizes the sponsor because of their advertisement, then mission accomplished. Same goes for the cheeseburger joint.

I recently had a tournament that was sponsored by a local church. The pastor there is a disc golfer who I consider a friend and he knows that I'm an atheist. His church graciously gave a couple hundred bottles of water (chuch logo'd) and some coolers (also logo'd) that I was more than happy to give to the players. I put the church's logo on teesigns and in the program. No muss, no fuss... they got their name out there as a supporter of DG and the players got to stay hydrated, free of charge. I wasn't asked to convert anyone or recite a special phrase over each basket while burning a particular incense. It was a simple transaction that benefited the tournament and the business alike.



Wow! If only businesses around the world had talked to you first. That is, it's hard to believe that the basic marketing principals followed by every company in the world are wrong. Gee, too bad they wasted all that money...

BTW - does this mean you will stop soliciting marketing sponsorship opportunities since those people who are presumably trying to get their message in front of your tourney participants are getting zero value?

???

Did we just read the same post ?

I saw a church following a tried and true business model of advertising through sponsorship.

And it seems that he would be soliciting more sponsorship because he did see the value of a sponsor merely getting their name in front of the players.

Show of hand's for all that think Lyle is a royal d o u c h e

I took a picture of my hand, then decided not to post it b/c it was offensive

I can't believe I missed this topic until now :)

I view it this way - a church *is* a business, like any other and organized religion is an industry like any other. Complete with lobbyists, profit, corruption, etc... but also good, charitable results in many cases.

I am not so arrogant as to assume that me putting a church's logo on a teesign is going to persuade a golfer to become religious any more than me putting the local cheeseburger joint's logo on there is going to promote an unhealthy diet. I say, let 'em advertise all they want. Just because they're a religion doesn't mean they have any less of a right to today's consumers. If sponsoring a DG tournament is a form of advertisement they choose, then great! We all win. just because a church sponsors an event does not mean that there has to be a dedication prayer or a "come to jesus" meeting between rounds.

That said... the churches should not be given preference above any other business, either. If a golfer is need of a church and patronizes the sponsor because of their advertisement, then mission accomplished. Same goes for the cheeseburger joint.

I recently had a tournament that was sponsored by a local church. The pastor there is a disc golfer who I consider a friend and he knows that I'm an atheist. His church graciously gave a couple hundred bottles of water (chuch logo'd) and some coolers (also logo'd) that I was more than happy to give to the players. I put the church's logo on teesigns and in the program. No muss, no fuss... they got their name out there as a supporter of DG and the players got to stay hydrated, free of charge. I wasn't asked to convert anyone or recite a special phrase over each basket while burning a particular incense. It was a simple transaction that benefited the tournament and the business alike.



Wow! If only businesses around the world had talked to you first. That is, it's hard to believe that the basic marketing principals followed by every company in the world are wrong. Gee, too bad they wasted all that money...

BTW - does this mean you will stop soliciting marketing sponsorship opportunities since those people who are presumably trying to get their message in front of your tourney participants are getting zero value?



Lyle, (shakes head), forget it... not worth it.

http://www.callingallnations.com/database_files/photo_image_147_Hands%20raised%20to%20Jesus%20by%2 0Steven%20Bridge.JPG

This is a fribeetarian gathering right? Looks like everybody wants the guy with the frisbee to throw it to them :)

http://www.callingallnations.com/database_files/photo_image_147_Hands%20raised%20to%20Jesus%20by%2 0Steven%20Bridge.JPG



roflmfao

http://www.callingallnations.com/database_files/photo_image_147_Hands%20raised%20to%20Jesus%20by%2 0Steven%20Bridge.JPG






If you only knew.

I have not made it to the end of this string yet, but being a spiritual ans faithful man i do not see any problem with it. I am trying to get a group formed at my church. in fact i pray with my first group at every tournament. I ask if it is ok and have never had anyone not participate.
Including church or God in disc golf should have nothing to do with whether or not people will or will not play.
Just because it has something to do with a church does not mean it is going to be a prayer fest.
Example-I went hunting last night with a group of guys from my church. We did not pray, did not talk about God or Jesus, or church. We hunted then drank some beer and talked like guys.
Too many people get the wrong idea when anything having to do with religion is mentioned.

Thats just my 2 cents. Lee do what you feel is right!

Lee do what you feel is right!



It is my belief that it is not polite to discuss religion or politics in a public forum. You never know whom you will offend. This thread was not started to discuss my beliefs , It was simply a tool to judge how people felt about the topic/affiliation.

Lee do what you feel is right!



I was simply a tool to judge how people felt about the topic/affiliation.



Don't be so hard on yourself man! lol

Lee do what you feel is right!



It is my belief that it is not polite to discuss religion or politics in a public forum. You never know whom you will offend. This thread was not started to discuss my beliefs , It was simply a tool to judge how people felt about the topic/affiliation.



I agree with you for the most part, except when religion or politics is in the subject line. In that case you should know what you are getting into.

the separation of church and state is a political topic, to be sure. There's a reason why our founding fathers made a point to create that dividing line. Disc Golf is no different. That said, having a church sponsor an event isn't exactly bringing religion into the event. It's the business side of the church that is doing the sponsoring. Unless they expect a prayer or devotional of some sort... then I have no problem with a church being involved.

There's a certain point where sensitivity turns into absurdity. It makes sense to keep religious ceremony out of disc golf, but if someone is offended by a certain business simply giving money to their event... well... they're being unreasonable.

if someone is offended by a certain business simply giving money to their event... well... they're being unreasonable.


If you were TD'ing an event, would you accept sponsorship $$ from NAMBLA? The KKK? Al Qaeda? If your answer is "No", is that unreasonable, as well?

if someone is offended by a certain business simply giving money to their event... well... they're being unreasonable.


If you were TD'ing an event, would you accept sponsorship $$ from NAMBLA? The KKK? Al Qaeda? If your answer is "No", is that unreasonable, as well?



That is a matter of personal opinion/choice. People have the choice if they want to play in an event sponsored by those groups. It may seem or look like a bad choice to me, but regardless it's their choice. We make bad choices every day in one way or another.

Lee do what you feel is right!



It is my belief that it is not polite to discuss religion or politics in a public forum. You never know whom you will offend. This thread was not started to discuss my beliefs , It was simply a tool to judge how people felt about the topic/affiliation.



I agree with you for the most part, except when religion or politics is in the subject line. In that case you should know what you are getting into.



Exactly!

if someone is offended by a certain business simply giving money to their event... well... they're being unreasonable.


If you were TD'ing an event, would you accept sponsorship $$ from NAMBLA? The KKK? Al Qaeda? If your answer is "No", is that unreasonable, as well?


for argument's sake, no. But that's not just because I disagree with them (I do disagree), it's because I strongly feel that these groups are a detriment to society and I don't want to be associated with them. I recognize that many churches do good things, even if under pretenses I disagree with. The religious groups offering sponsorship to DG tournaments are almost certainly the same type that serve the community well through charity work, etc.

I would also accept sponsorship from NASCAR or WWF, even though I think they are idiotic.

You're comparing a lesser evil with a greater one. It's like asking me if I'd enjoy a stake through the heart just because I'm okay with a splinter in my fingertip.

What's wrong with the North American Marlon Brando Look-Alikes?

nice :). loves me some south park

if someone is offended by a certain business simply giving money to their event... well... they're being unreasonable.


If you were TD'ing an event, would you accept sponsorship $$ from NAMBLA? The KKK? Al Qaeda? If your answer is "No", is that unreasonable, as well?



:D:DI'm sorry, as I read this post in my head I cannot characterize the speaker with a serious tone.

If you were TD'ing an event, would you accept sponsorship $$ from NAMBLA? The KKK? Al Qaeda? If your answer is "No", is that unreasonable, as well?



:D:DI'm sorry, as I read this post in my head I cannot characterize the speaker with a serious tone.


I'm quite serious. If some MB user spouts off the ridiculous, overbroad (both IMHO) statement:

if someone is offended by a certain business simply giving money to their event... well... they're being unreasonable.


they're going to have to be ready to defend it by answering to hypothetical examples.

"some MB user"

that's an interesting choice of words...

anyway, I do not consider my statement ridiculous or overbroad. you are simply too sensitive. if you need some clarification on my statement (you seem to be the only one who does), then here, allow me to rephrase:


if someone is offended by a certain well-intintioned business simply giving money to their event without expecting any special treatment in return... well... they're being unreasonable.


Seriously... you're trying very hard to make this a more complicated argument than it really is. A church might not be your or my idea of a good time, nor a business that either of us would patronize ourselves, but that doesn't make them terrorists, or the KKK or a group of Marlon Brando impersonators. If this was a thousand years ago or if we were talking about a militant fanatic sect, then you'd have a valid comparison. Today... it's just a business. Calm down.

actually - one more thing. Since you like drawing hypothetical comparisons, here's something a little more in line with reality (i.e. not as ridiculous or overbroad as your previous one):

If I was approached by a local psychic / palm reader who wanted to be a sponsor, I would be fine with it. I would also happily accept sponsorship from Dunkin Donuts or Verizon Wireless or a pre-paid legal services company. I'd do any of those even though I don't believe in psychics, I am far too fat for donuts, I think pre-paid legal is a scam, and I use Sprint. you see, I don't agree with any of those businesses nor do I feel the need to use their services. But, I'm also not going to turn down money for my event just because they aren't my cup of tea.

If the church required me to say a morning prayer in return for their sponsorship, they're out. If VZWireless required me to change phone service to earn their sponsorship, they're out too. But as long as it's just a logo on a teesign... you're still too sensitive.

actually - one more thing. Since you like drawing hypothetical comparisons, here's something a little more in line with reality (i.e. not as ridiculous or overbroad as your previous one):

If I was approached by a local psychic / palm reader who wanted to be a sponsor, I would be fine with it. I would also happily accept sponsorship from Dunkin Donuts or Verizon Wireless or a pre-paid legal services company. I'd do any of those even though I don't believe in psychics, I am far too fat for donuts, I think pre-paid legal is a scam, and I use Sprint. you see, I don't agree with any of those businesses nor do I feel the need to use their services. But, I'm also not going to turn down money for my event just because they aren't my cup of tea.

If the church required me to say a morning prayer in return for their sponsorship, they're out. If VZWireless required me to change phone service to earn their sponsorship, they're out too. But as long as it's just a logo on a teesign... you're still too sensitive.


So answer the original question: would you accept sponsorship $$ from NAMBLA? The KKK? Al Qaeda? If your answer is "NO," is that unreasonable, as well?

If your answer is "YES," then good for you. If not, you can't claim your limits of tolerance for sponsorship are "cool", but some other person's are unreasonably sensitive.

yes, I can. So can anyone else, as the term "reasonable" is subjective. Some people have reasonable limits of tolerance, others do not.

Oh, and I did answer the question, a few posts up. I answered "no" because I choose not to associate with those groups, not because they should be banned from sponsorship. Most if not all TDs would choose the same, but that doesn't mean it's wrong for anyone who chooses to accept their sponsorship. It's just a bad choice.

Too bad it is too late for me to delete this thread.
Sorry I asked....

Man-oh-man, baldguy, I need you on board with my cause.

Take the $$, but never give it away unless it's to players. I think you're basically one kind of person or the other: people that want money going to the players or people who want to give players' money away to non-players.

Down with charity DG events! No more! Hear-hear for added cash and sponsorship!

Pay the Top 10 at Majors!

I dunno if I could get 100% on board... but perhaps :). I'm running a charity event this fall, but the money is coming out of *my* pocket, not the players'. I'm just donating all merch profit to the charity. The rest of the tournament will be as normal. The only profit I'll keep is from sales outside the payout structure. Of course I couldn't afford to do this every time, but once a year I think it's good to give it all away to a worthy cause. At least it's not at the players' expense :)

Then, again... as long as you advertise that it's a charity event and the players understand where their entry fee goes, then I can't really say much against the standard charity tourney structure. Not for me, but I can't see a real problem with it.

actually - one more thing. Since you like drawing hypothetical comparisons, here's something a little more in line with reality (i.e. not as ridiculous or overbroad as your previous one):

If I was approached by a local psychic / palm reader who wanted to be a sponsor, I would be fine with it. I would also happily accept sponsorship from Dunkin Donuts or Verizon Wireless or a pre-paid legal services company. I'd do any of those even though I don't believe in psychics, I am far too fat for donuts, I think pre-paid legal is a scam, and I use Sprint. you see, I don't agree with any of those businesses nor do I feel the need to use their services. But, I'm also not going to turn down money for my event just because they aren't my cup of tea.

If the church required me to say a morning prayer in return for their sponsorship, they're out. If VZWireless required me to change phone service to earn their sponsorship, they're out too. But as long as it's just a logo on a teesign... you're still too sensitive.


So answer the original question: would you accept sponsorship $$ from NAMBLA? The KKK? Al Qaeda? If your answer is "NO," is that unreasonable, as well?

If your answer is "YES," then good for you. If not, you can't claim your limits of tolerance for sponsorship are "cool", but some other person's are unreasonably sensitive.



I think its reasonable to fear entities like the FBI and Department of Homeland Security enough to avoid doing business with said organizations without being considered too judgemental.

Worthy cause.....when are TD's going to see their players as worthy?

Too bad it is too late for me to delete this thread.
Sorry I asked....



Why apologize for asking a legitimate question? You wanted "feedback," and now you've got it. Use it. What people say in response to it is up to them. It's no reflection on you, or the legitimacy of your question. Personally, I think it is a very good question that has given you some valuable "feedback." Just keep in mind, the average joe out there isn't gonna get involved with the topic for a variety of reasons. So a personal Q and A would probably give you a better feel for how people really feel IMO.

Lee, I think you understand what is a reasonable level of involvement from a particualar "church" in a dg tourney, so use it to disc golfs advantage if the advancement of the sport is your goal. Don't let the people who would distort or complicate it dictate the direction of a win/win scenerio. I'd guess that the average bagger out there couldn't care less if some "church" had it's name on a sign and donated fund$ to payout. At least as far as if they'd play or not.

And I'd bet anything that most people wouldn't equate that involvement to the KKK in ANY scenerio or hypothetical. In biblical studies there is a saying: "Don't build your doctrine on isolated or extreme examples." If you apply that thought to your original question, I think it would make it a little easier for you to make decisions about a "churches" involvement.

Ps. Pray about it! :D

It's the business side of the church that is doing the sponsoring.



<font color="red"> You sure about that? lol </font>

Worthy cause.....when are TD's going to see their players as worthy?


Players are certainly worthy, but it's not as if anyone is forced to play in a charity event. There are plenty of non-charity events available to choose from if players want to go for higher payouts. In fact, my Mesquite Open next month will be one of those tournaments. A bit like the tip jar on the counter at your local mom &amp; pop, playing in a charity event is an optional act of giving that some people feel good about participating in. Why is it so wrong for them to want to give to a charity instead of just their own pockets?

It's the business side of the church that is doing the sponsoring.



<font color="red"> You sure about that? lol </font>


pretty sure, yes ;)

Very simply stated, my point is, that the "business side of the church" (by any definition) is just a branch off of the vine. It's all connected. Not looking for a debate, just sharing a thought that I believe is true.

take the money!

take the money!




in fact tell them to contact me. I am always looking for ways to get church people involved with the community. Even if it is just giving money.

Worthy cause.....when are TD's going to see their players as worthy?


Players are certainly worthy, but it's not as if anyone is forced to play in a charity event. There are plenty of non-charity events available to choose from if players want to go for higher payouts. In fact, my Mesquite Open next month will be one of those tournaments. A bit like the tip jar on the counter at your local mom & pop, playing in a charity event is an optional act of giving that some people feel good about participating in. Why is it so wrong for them to want to give to a charity instead of just their own pockets?



I'll tell you what's wrong with the current system - this statement: "If you don't like it, or don't want to support the charity, then don't play."

Your analogy of the mom and pop store tip jar is far, far different than ice bowls or charity tournies in DG. In your analogy, if you need to buy paper towels from mom and pop, you can - and you can donate to a charity tip jar if you'd like to feel good about yourself, or whatever.

The analogy you should have made - one that would be the same as ice bowls - is saying that unless you give mom and pop's tip jar $10, you can't buy the paper towel. You should go without paper towel or go to Walmart instead.

ANY disc golf event should promote attendence, NEVER say don't play if you don't like the principles of the TD. That's what's wrong with the charity policy.

you obviously don't live in North Texas :)

around here, and in many parts of the country, players have lots of choices when it comes to disc golf tournaments. If they don't want to be a part of the charity event they can just wait a week or two and play a different one.

Besides, your analogy is very flawed. The "paper towels" shouldn't be equated to payout, they should be equated to fun. Just because they're putting money in the tip jar doesn't mean they can't still get their paper towels. Charity events are still fun, even if the payout isn't as bloated as it is with other tournaments.

Focusing on the payout side of tournaments is a very bad idea... in fact it could eventually be the downfall of DG as we know it. Save the big money expectations for Majors and NTs. If we want to grow the professional side of this sport, those are the events to focus on. The rest should focus on amateurs and growing the other 90% of the player base. Amateurs come back for the fun, the friendship, and the competition. The plastic is just a bonus. Charity events can give a player everything he expects from a tournament and still give to a charitable cause.