Okay here is one to consider. By the way, I think the decision was correct.

A player throws on a hole that run along a creek. The bank on one side is heavily vegetated (nice way of saying there were a lot of weeds) and the player has the misfortune of going into the vegetation (weeds) and the disc is lost forever. Not knowing the rules, the player AND HIS GROUP decide he should play it from last place seen in bounds. He throws from the group decided spot. The card playing behind stops them, unfortunately, after the player throws, and tell him the penality is stroke and distance and the player has to re-tee. By the way, the card behind them actually tried to stop him before he threw, but one of the players on the card told the guy to throw anyway and told the card trying to stop the throw, to be quiet.

So the player decides to call his throw from the wrong spot a provisional and goes back and re-tees. He puts the disc within putting range of the basket and nails the putt for an apparent 4. But wait, he then picks up the �provisional� throw and adds two strokes to his score for a penalty. This part I could not figure out, but somehow he felt he should receive an additional two stroke penalty.

He turns his card in with a recorded 49. After turning his card in, he talks to several more players and lets the tournament staff know that he messed up his score and should have only recorded a 5 and would have shot a 48. Tournament staff thanked him for his honesty, corrected his score to 48 and added 2 for a 50.

I am pretty sure I know the answers, but��.
Why did he get a 5 on the hole?

Any one want to guess.

He came back to the tee shooting 4 because the shot he threw from the weeds was a practice chunk.

MATT, crap don't give away the answer so early!

To add one more question to the scenario.

If said player had completed the hole from the provisional throw (let's say he gets a 5) (working under the assumption that he was unsure which card was calling the correct ruling ) and also played the retee shot, then recorded both scores. So on the card there would be a 4 and 5, and when the round is over he asks the TD about the situation. In this case the TD would say the 4 is the correct score and there would be no penalty strokes. is this correct?

I have my opinion, let us see what others say. By the way, this was the second open card.

So the player decides to call his throw from the wrong spot a provisional and goes back and re-tees.


Did he call it a provisional before or after he threw it? If he called it before he threw it, then he only gets a 4 since provisional throws don't count. If he called it after throwing it, it's a practice throw and he ends up with a 5. If he had completed the hole from the "provisional" throw, he would get whatever he shot on the hole from there plus 2. I'm assuming that would have been a 6 or 7 depending on whether he parked that provisional throw?

He should have played out the provisional and carded a four for the lost disc throwing three from the tee.

A player throws on a hole that run along a creek. The bank on one side is heavily vegetated (nice way of saying there were a lot of weeds) and the player has the misfortune of going into the vegetation (weeds) and the disc is lost forever.


I'm guessing that this isn't an OB creek?

Do you really have to find your disc if it is lost OB?


I was playing a tournament recently that had a 250ish straight blind shot with an OB lake behind it. Player 1 throws and obviously goes past the hole into the lake. He didn't believe he could take his shot from the land behind the basket because he didn't see where the disc entered the water, or where the disc was laying at the bottom of the lake. I thought it would be well within the rules to take the drop behind the basket, but he felt the need to retee. I know what he did was legal, as you have the option to retee on any shot that goes OB, but wasn't he double penalizing himself?

I was playing a tournament recently that had a 250ish straight blind shot with an OB lake behind it.


This is the (design) problem in the first place. TD should spcify how shots are played if "lost" past the basket. If it's obvious that a disc can't get lost behind the basket since it's well mowed and you would see the disc if not OB, then OB would be the default call and player could play from behind the basket by the lake (or retee if they preferred). Another option would be for TD to specify a drop zone for all discs not found and presumed OB.

No one saw it go into the creek, and as I understand it, everyone believed it was in the weeds someplace. Additionally, as I heard it, he did not call it a provisional until after he threw. As a matter of fact, he probably called his re-tee the provisional shot.

A player throws on a hole that run along a creek. The bank on one side is heavily vegetated (nice way of saying there were a lot of weeds) and the player has the misfortune of going into the vegetation (weeds) and the disc is lost forever.


I'm guessing that this isn't an OB creek?

Do you really have to find your disc if it is lost OB?


I was playing a tournament recently that had a 250ish straight blind shot with an OB lake behind it. Player 1 throws and obviously goes past the hole into the lake. He didn't believe he could take his shot from the land behind the basket because he didn't see where the disc entered the water, or where the disc was laying at the bottom of the lake. I thought it would be well within the rules to take the drop behind the basket, but he felt the need to retee. I know what he did was legal, as you have the option to retee on any shot that goes OB, but wasn't he double penalizing himself?




If the card was going to give him the benefit of the doubt then yes. BTW he didn't call a provisional (at least not until we told him he had to retee). The card was made up of three guys who rarely play events and one guy hadn't played in three years before the new lost disc rule.

He could have just played it out for a 4 and take the 2 stroke penalty for a 6 which is a gimme instead of risking a 7 or more by throwing in the creek again. He basically 2ed it from the tee for a 5 though which is tough to do.

So a player walks up to the basket lying two, marks the Wizard with a mini, and drops it in. Then she remembers she threw X-Puttr and that must be someone else's Wizard. She puts the Wizard back behind the mini, marks the X-Puttr, and putts out.

If she was your wife and you were the TD, what's the proper score? :D

So a player walks up to the basket lying two, marks the Wizard with a mini, and drops it in. Then she remembers she threw X-Puttr and that must be someone else's Wizard. She puts the Wizard back behind the mini, marks the X-Puttr, and putts out.

If she was your wife and you were the TD, what's the proper score? :D




If she were my wife I'd give her a two. :D

So a player walks up to the basket lying two, marks the Wizard with a mini, and drops it in. Then she remembers she threw X-Puttr and that must be someone else's Wizard. She puts the Wizard back behind the mini, marks the X-Puttr, and putts out.

If she was your wife and you were the TD, what's the proper score? :D



I would have a heart attack, I cannot get my wife to play for anything.

2 strokes, plain and simple. :p

So a player walks up to the basket lying two, marks the Wizard with a mini, and drops it in. Then she remembers she threw X-Puttr and that must be someone else's Wizard. She puts the Wizard back behind the mini, marks the X-Puttr, and putts out.

If she was your wife and you were the TD, what's the proper score? :D



I think you should be sleeping on the couch or out in the garage with the dyed discs. :)

I thought she was lying 2 but she said she was lying 4. I am not sure which is the case as I approched the basket from the other side of the shrubs and didn't see her sequence of throws.. We all felt that she gets a 2 stroke penalty with no warning for playing from somebody else's lie. We put a 5 on the card and circled it and she turned the card in to her spouse. We all figured the 5 was going to turn into a 7 after a ruling. When I saw the scores posted it looks like she was given an 8 unless I made a math error when totalling and retotalling everybody's scores. I couldn't figure that one out. (sorry for the thread drift) The putt, by the way, was a drop in. Both discs were lying right under the basket.

6

Three plus two strokes for playing from another's lie (803.10A) plus another practice stroke for putting again. If she called a provisional before putting from behind her disc, give her a 5!


Edit
This was based on the statement that she was lying 2. She gets two stokes for playing from another's lie, plus a practice stroke for putting again (unless she called a provisional BEFORE putting again). So add three to her score after putting from the wrong disc.

I recall her calling a provisional. It could have been worse. if she did not take the extra stroke she would have failed to hole out.

I recall her calling a provisional. It could have been worse. if she did not take the extra stroke she would have failed to hole out.



Not true. Read 803.10A

Correct. We saw that as we read the books on Saturday and I failed to recall it this morning.

A player cannot just call a provisional because they aren't sure what they are supposed to. A player can declare (beforehand) that a throw is a provisional if there is disagreement between the player and the group as to what they should do. In this case, if everyone on the card thought she should throw from her putter (after holing out from the wrong mark) and she disagreed, a provisional is acceptable (and not added to the score). If she thought she should putt from her putter (whether or not the card agreed with her), she would have been wrong and the provisional should be counted as a practice throw.

Either way, I feel sorry for her. She needs to get rid of that X-Puttr and go back to the wizard. She putts better with the wizard.

She definately should not switch putters the day before a tournament. I don't recall her saying that she called a provisional, but if she did call a provisional, I would give her the 2-throw penalty without a warning, and not the practice throw penalty as well.

Yeah, she was actually lying 4, but i could not remember for the purposes of the hypothetical.

If the card, posting above, agrees she called a provisional, I'll see if the TD will adjust the score. She said you guys were fine with whatever I called. Weasels. ;)

She definately should not switch putters the day before a tournament. I don't recall her saying that she called a provisional, but if she did call a provisional, I would give her the 2-throw penalty without a warning, and not the practice throw penalty as well.

Yeah, she was actually lying 4, but i could not remember for the purposes of the hypothetical.

If the card, posting above, agrees she called a provisional, I'll see if the TD will adjust the score. She said you guys were fine with whatever I called. Weasels. ;)




I don't know about that! I left my putters in my basket at home so I started using Two Magnets instead and putted about as good as I ever have.

She definately should not switch putters the day before a tournament. I don't recall her saying that she called a provisional, but if she did call a provisional, I would give her the 2-throw penalty without a warning, and not the practice throw penalty as well.

Yeah, she was actually lying 4, but i could not remember for the purposes of the hypothetical.

If the card, posting above, agrees she called a provisional, I'll see if the TD will adjust the score. She said you guys were fine with whatever I called. Weasels. ;)



We definately all agreed that we would be fine with your ruling. Implcit in that is we had complete confidence that the correct story would be, and was, reported. There are no credibility issues here. I really can't recall if she used the word, "provisional". I think she said," I am going to putt in and we will get a ruling when we get back" or something along those lines. We all just nodded and pretty much said, "uh huh." At that moment none of us was sure of the correct rule. On the way to the next hole Diana and I pulled out our books and discovered the two stroke penalty. At that point, on the next tee box, we were pretty confident of the ruling. When she putted the Wizard we knew that an infraction had occurred but were unclear as to which infraction to apply. All that being said, it was the second to last hole of the day and we were tired (hence the original problem) and nobody had a real clear mind or sound attention.

Hummm..... talk about thread drift.....

To try and draw it back in. The player was penalized one stroke for the first throw from the wrong spot, as if it was a practice throw, though I could see where someone might argue, playing from the wrong lie, I don't believe that is applicable. Now here is the big question: how can a card of open players not know this rule? Yes it changed several years back, but if he had played out the 'provisional' would he have gotten a stroke for every throw? Under the rule book a provisional throw can be called for at anytime a player and the group disagree about the rules, for speed of play, etc., but can you call for a provisional based on not knowing the rules? For instance if the player had known the correct rule, but the majority of the group had disagreed and been wrong, he could have played a provisional just to get the group moving 803.01 C. It seems that not knowing the rules should not be a good excuse for a wrong play.

803.01

C.Provisional Throws. Provisional throws are extra throws that are not added to a player�s score if they are not ultimately used in completion of the hole. The use of provisional throws is encouraged in all situations where there is a question regarding a thrower�s lie and a provisional would speed play or when the thrower questions the group�s or official�s ruling. The unused throws shall not be added to the thrower�s score nor treated as practice throws if the player announces that such additional throws are made as provisional throws prior to taking them. Provisional throws are appropriate in the following circumstances:
(1) To save time: A player may declare a provisional throw any time (a) the status of a disc cannot immediately be determined, and (b) the majority of the group agrees that playing a provisional throw may save time, and (c) the original throw may be out of bounds, lost, or have missed a mandatory. When proceeding under this type of provisional the thrower shall complete the hole from whichever of the two throws is deemed by the group or an official as the appropriate lie according to the rules.
(2) To appeal the group�s or an official�s ruling: A set of provisional throws may be taken to complete a hole pursuant to 803.01 D
(3) when the player disagrees with the majority group decision and an official is not readily available, or if the player wishes to appeal the decision of an official. The scores from both sets of throws shall be recorded. The proper ruling and score are then determined by the director at the end of the round.

If you play from the wrong lie or no lie at all and complete the hole, it's handled as if you played the hole correctly plus 2-shot penalty. This comes up regularly when players don't realize the hole had a mando and it turns out they missed it when they find out later. Of course, if you did it on purpose (such as so deep in the woods it might take you more than 2 to get out so you throw from the fairway) then you could get a DQ for subverting the rules.

If you play from the wrong lie or no lie at all and complete the hole, it's handled as if you played the hole correctly plus 2-shot penalty. This comes up regularly when players don't realize the hole had a mando and it turns out they missed it when they find out later. Of course, if you did it on purpose (such as so deep in the woods it might take you more than 2 to get out so you throw from the fairway) then you could get a DQ for subverting the rules.




It's also good when you launch a disc 200ft into the schule so you just putt from the disc that someone else drove right under the basket. Easy 4

but can you call for a provisional based on not knowing the rules?



Sorry about the thread drift... Its amusing that this question pops up in both. I read the provisional (in the case of a rules disagreement on card) to mean that the player doesn't want to do something, but the card says they have to. In this case of duress, they play it out provisionally. If the player was correct, they are not penalized for those provisional throws. If the player was wrong, IMO they should be penalized for whatever they threw.

I do not see ignorance of the rules as a valid use of the provisional.

Except that a provisional is also used to speed play when the status of a disc is unknown by anyone in the group. Kind of confusing if in that case player doesn't get penalized (and shouldn't) for calling a provisional but does get penalized if the reason is for disagreement.

Now here is the big question: how can a card of open players not know this rule?



Because all it takes to be a Professional disc golfer is $75 and/or the ability to cash in a professional division.

No real knowledge of the rules required.

When there is a disagreement in how it should be played, the provisional should be used for the shot (or sequence of shots) that the player does not believe they should be taking. This absolves them from the possibility of taking penalties for the shots they don't think they should be throwing. The provisional is not for the throws that they believe to be correct. If they are right, no penalties. If they are wrong, all the appropriate penalties apply.

The penalty for having someone throw a provisional in a group because no one has a rulebook to resolve the issue should be two shots for each player in the group for slowing up the course unnecessarily. :eek:

The penalty for having someone throw a provisional in a group because no one has a rulebook to resolve the issue should be two shots for each player in the group for slowing up the course unnecessarily. :eek:


which rule in the rulebook is that?

Note I said "should be" not "is."

OK, just making sure you weren't inferring things that weren't explicit.

correct me if I am wrong, but in order for a provisional to be used, it must be called before either set of throws is played.

Meaning that you can't finish the hole and then decide to go back and throw a provisional set in case that disc across the sidewalk was really OB.

Not necessarily. If the group say discovers that the hole had a mando after putting out and isn't sure what to do, they might choose to go replay the hole provisionally if they don't have a rulebook which tells them to just add 2 throws penalty.

im gonna throw out one off topic, sorry in advance, but can you call a dangerous lie anytime you think it might take more than 2 strokes to get out of the shule? or does there have to be some actual danger? basically what im saying is if you throw into the shule can you mark your lie where it went in and take a stroke so that you dont have to go in there at all?

You can call an unplayable lie penalty any time even if your shot is not in schule. However, it's not marked where you went in unless that's within 5m behind your disc on line with the basket. Or you can throw from your previous lie. Either way it's only a 1-shot penalty.

thanks Chuck

You can call an unplayable lie penalty any time even if your shot is not in schule. However, it's not marked where you went in unless that's within 5m behind your disc on line with the basket. Or you can throw from your previous lie. Either way it's only a 1-shot penalty.



so does this really mean that I can throw... hate where I landed.... and re-tee or re-throw from my original lie with only a 1 stroke penalty? GREAT!!! I'll be using that fo sho in Tulsa this weekend... cause there are a lot of shule spots that I don't wanna throw from.... I'll just take a stroke.... and have a better lie.... Am I reading this correctly Chuck :confused: :cool:

Don't forget to count every throw... including the one that went into the shule AND a penalty stroke :p

So if you tee off in to the shule, call an unplayable lie and throw again that is 3 strokes, two thrown and one penalty.

okay, I have a scenario along these lines:

The hole is a 300-foot island-ish hole with deep OB water on three sides. Trees line the banks of the OB water. The player's first throw is OB right and short of the pin. The distance is far enough away from the tee as to prevent an accurate approximation of where the disc last crossed the OB line, and the disc cannot be found in the water, although it obviously went in somewhere along that line. The group advises the player of the lost disc rule, but nobody being certain about how it applies to far-away OB shots (even after reviewing the rulebook), the group suggests a provisional shot and a re-tee. The player plays provisional from the OB line and cards 5 strokes plus the penalty. He then re-tees and cards 4 strokes plus the penalty.

So, the player's "provisional" lie was a 6, and the re-tee was a 5. Of course he had the option to re-tee for the OB shot, essentially deeming a provisional shot unnecessary... but he *did not excercise this option*. The TD rules that the disc should have been played from the group's best guess on the OB line. The TD still gives the player a 5 since (and I quote) "he could have re-teed for the OB shot anyway and taken the 5".

I know this is wrong in at least one way, but how *should* this have gone?

BTW - this is not a hypothetical for fun... this is for my own edification (and hopefully others') as an official.

1.) where should the lie have been and why?
2.) which score should have been awarded?

On the second question, the TD ruled that the disc was OB and not lost. Therefore, the provisional which was for if the disc was declared OB should be used. The score should have been a 6.

Check the Q&A, lost disc should never come into play with a visibly OB shot.
However, the provisional is the correct way to play it if the card is confused about the ruling.

I agree that the player had the option under the OB rule, however it is an option. The player chose to play from the last spot inbounds under the OB ruling and that score should be used.

In this case, the provisional was for the disc being OB and played from the last spot inbounds, or the disc being lost and played from the previous lie. The disc was OB, the score for that leg stands.


short answers:
1) Either place because the disc was clearly OB and the player has the option.
2) From the last spot inbounds (6).

The group should agree on a spot where the disc went out of bounds and the player has the option of playing there or from his last lie.

Since he played both lies and both lies are legal it's my opinion that he cards a score for the non-provisional shot.

okay I'm with you all on these answers so far. Now a more specific question pertaining to the same situation:

what if the spot where the disc crossed the OB line was out of visual range? This particular hole was not as exaggerated, but imagine a sharp dogleg hole with enough foliage to completely block view of the fairway past the turn. Imagine that at the end of the dogleg is a true island green. A perfect skip shot would land on this green, but the player's does not. It is in the murky water, never to be found again. Where does the player mark his lie?

What I'm driving at is this: In the event that an accurate spot cannot be agreed upon, is the rule strong enough to suggest that the player *must* play from his previous lie?

If I can rephrase your question, "If a disc was definitively known to go OB but no one saw where it crossed the OB line, can the player be compelled to throw from the previous lie?"


803.09.B.2 A lie that is up to one meter away from and perpendicular to the point where the disc last crossed into out-of-bounds, as determined by a majority of the group or an official.



From this I would say that the group can determine a spot collectively and the player can play from that location. So no, the player cannot be compelled to play from the previous lie. This hole might be a good candidate for the TD to limit the OB options for a tournament.

that is a good rephrase.

After reviewing the OB rules, part of 803.09(A) reads "In order to consider the disc as out-of-bounds, there must be reasonable evidence that the disc came to rest within the out-of-bounds area. In the absence of such evidence, the disc will be considered lost and the player will proceed according to rule 803.11B."

In the second scenario I posted, I think there would be reasonable evidence to suggest that the disc landed OB, but nearly impossible for the group to know where it crossed the line last. I agree that this hole is a good candidate for special OB rules, but lets assume for the sake of argument that these special rules do not exist. Let's also assume that the green is of irregular shape and the pin is not centered. Various lies could result in 10-foot putts or 50-foot putts. I think I'd prefer to have the rule provide a solution for situations like this. Something as simple as "if the place that the disc crossed the OB line cannot be reasonably determined, the player must proceed from his previous lie" would work for most situations, I think.

Something as simple as "if the place that the disc crossed the OB line cannot be reasonably determined, the player must proceed from his previous lie" would work for most situations, I think.



803.01 D(1) When a group cannot reach a majority decision regarding a ruling, the benefit of the doubt shall be given to the thrower. However, any player may seek the ruling of an official, and the official�s ruling shall supersede the group�s ruling. Any player desiring an appeal of the group�s decision shall promptly and clearly express that desire to the group.

From this rule, in my opinion, if a majority can't agree on where it went out, the thrower gets the benefit of a doubt and marks the location. Since it is majority and not unanimous, I'd think this would be a rare occasion, but if it happened the rules are there to cover it, again in my opinion.

I'd agree except for how "benefit" would apply in this case. In my first example, the player actually scored worse from where he marked his lie on the OB line. I suppose that's a risk he decided to take, however... and I suppose that a stroke penalty is more beneficial than a stroke plus distance penalty in most cases :)

The player gets the benefit of the doubt in marking his lie.

He gets no relief from making a poor decision on which of his options was actually the best, or from making a poor shot or poor shot choice from the more advantageous lie.

Provisionals are used for yes or no situations where either one or the other will be used based on a contested or 'unknown at the time' ruling. Once the ruling is known, there is no choice as to which score to use.

There is no benefit of decision that would allow a player to take the best possible outcome without regard to the ruling.

so does this really mean that I can throw... hate where I landed.... and re-tee or re-throw from my original lie with only a 1 stroke penalty? GREAT!!! I'll be using that fo sho in Tulsa this weekend... cause there are a lot of shule spots that I don't wanna throw from.... I'll just take a stroke.... and have a better lie.... Am I reading this correctly Chuck



Fo sho. You don't like your shot, add a penalty throw and you start again from the lie that you just threw from to get into the unplayable lie, usually the tee. You are throwing your third shot as someone else pointed out.

I saw an interesting situation the other day where a player threw into deep schule. He then threw an overhead that hit a tree and landed behind him. He wanted to get out some how using the rules. Unfortunately, since he didn't use the unplayable lie after he first threw in there, if he used it now, he would take a 1-shot penalty and only move five feet forward back to his previous lie and still be deep in the schule. That's why the old rule had the option where no matter where you were, you could take a 2-shot penalty and go out to the fairway no closer to the hole anytime you really needed to.