mrsheridan
Apr 18 2008, 03:12 PM
Hi all,

I�m concerned about giving out my SSN to enter a tournament. It seems to me that as an AM player the TD doesn�t need my SSN, and if I were a Pro and won some cash they could ask for my SSN then. I just don�t think that I should be required to write down my SSN on a entry form and then send to a complete stranger. I don�t think that I�m being too paranoid. A family member was the victim of ID theft. It wasn�t pretty.

Mike Sheridan

Opinions?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I sent the following to Both the SCDGA and Tour Coordinator for the PDGA.

I would like to enter two upcoming SoCal tournaments, the Summertime Open and the Crecenta Valley Safari to be held in May. The problem that I have is that both are asking for my DoB and SSN on the entry form. Now unless they are handing out credit cards as part of the player packs I can see no need for me to give this information to complete strangers. The PDGA, SCDGA, Higher Flyers or Plastic Pilots did not need this Info from me to join or enter their tournaments. Frankly this is a deal breaker for me. I was planning on entering 6 tournaments this year and more next year, but if TDs need this much information from me just to enter a tournament, I'll just stick with my local weeklies and monthlies.

Concerned about privacy.

Michael Sheridan
MM1
PDGA #34323
SCDGA # 643
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I also sent the following to both TDs on 4-15.

"I was about to enter my son and myself in your tournament until I saw that you were asking for my SSN on the entry form. Why would you possibly need my SSN for a Disc golf tournament? In this day and age of rampant ID theft I would think that I would not be only one who has a problem handing over my SSN to a complete stranger. Please enlighten me."

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I received this response from the TD for the Summertime Open.

�Any cash paid at tourney must have S.S�
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To which I replied;

�So if I'm entering as an AM you shouldn't need my SSN. Correct?

I did not need to give out this information to enter the the El Dorado Open or the Higher Flyers Memorial or the Masters Cup.

I could see asking a player for his/her SSN if they did win some prize money, but asking for all entrants DoB and SSN seems a little reckless to me.�

No response yet.

cgkdisc
Apr 18 2008, 03:19 PM
If prize value is over $600, then TD would technically need to issue a 1099 for that. Usually that would only be at the largest Am events like Worlds where a basket might be involved plus lots of merch.

Mark_Stephens
Apr 18 2008, 03:21 PM
Which is fine, IF you were to win you could supply that information. It does not need to be on a stack of registration forms...

the_kid
Apr 18 2008, 03:23 PM
If prize value is over $600, then TD would technically need to issue a 1099 for that. Usually that would only be at the largest Am events like Worlds where a basket might be involved plus lots of merch.




I didn't know we needed to claim merch on out Taxes. :D
The IRS may come after me for what I did when I was 15. :D

KMcKinney
Apr 18 2008, 03:27 PM
Give them that number from the LifeLock add. I would not enter the tournament otherwise.

cgkdisc
Apr 18 2008, 03:46 PM
I didn't know we needed to claim merch on our Taxes.


That's why people sometimes have to decline the prizes they win on TV game shows because they can't or don't want to pay the taxes.

cgkdisc
Apr 18 2008, 03:49 PM
Entering SSN on the Pro Worlds entry form is common practice . Since my corporation pays my entry fee (and gets any winnings), the TD gets my Corp Tax ID instead.

chainmeister
Apr 18 2008, 04:14 PM
Having read all the above I think Mike's original query remains unanswered. Why should he provide a social security number to enter as an AM? Even if he won something over $600(such as the AM Worlds DGA prize of 18 baskets) he could be asked to provide the number at that time. I would not give my SSN to enter a tournament. I have never been asked and would not do so. If I played pro I would expect to give the number. As an AM (and one who has a lifetime merch value in winnings that is still way under $600) I would not give out that information.

sandalman
Apr 18 2008, 04:32 PM
you could probably just provide a bogus SSN

cgkdisc
Apr 18 2008, 04:51 PM
Inquiring here isn't going to resolve anything. It's not PDGA policy to ask with the exception of events with large pro purses. While it's required by the IRS when actual value over $600 goes to someone, I'm not sure I see why the TDs of those events would have any need for SSNs from Ams with the possible exception of Ams entering pro divisions now that merch can be accepted instead of cash. If their response was that the PDGA requires them, it's not true.

haroldduvall
Apr 18 2008, 05:42 PM
It is certainly within the TD's rights to request the information, but I would wonder why he wants the extra liability that attaches for not safeguarding such information. Perhaps the TD would be glad to waive the requirement for ams if he realized that the information is likely unnecessary and actually poses a potential liability.

I am not so sure about providing a bogus SSN. The bogus number might be someone else's real number. That could create a possible problem down the road for that person as well as you and the TD.

reallybadputter
Apr 18 2008, 06:07 PM
And the Social Security Administration says this in part of their Q&As...

You should treat your Social Security number as confidential information and avoid giving it out unnecessarily. You should keep your Social Security card in a safe place with your other important papers. Do not carry it with you unless you need to show it to an employer or service provider.... [stuff about how the SSA protects your number deleted]
...You should be very careful about sharing your number and card to protect against misuse of your number. Giving your number is voluntary even when you are asked for the number directly. If requested, you should ask:

* Why your number is needed;
* How your number will be used;
* What happens if you refuse; and
* What law requires you to give your number.

The answers to these questions can help you decide if you want to give your Social Security number. The decision is yours

I would fill in the blank with "Will be provided if I win >$600."

cgkdisc
Apr 18 2008, 09:15 PM
<font color="blue"> [account sharing deleted] </font>

mrsheridan
Apr 19 2008, 01:24 PM
[QUOTE]

SNIP
I'm pretty certain it's that simple. They don't necessarily want your SSN. It was just already on the form they modified.
{End Quote}

I'm sure Chuck34 is right. the forms for the two tournaments in question are identical. A simple answer from the TDs would clear this up. Still waiting though. I did notice that PDGA Online Registration is offered for the Crecenta Valley Safari and it does not ask for your SSN.

Mike

underparmike
Apr 21 2008, 10:39 PM
am i to understand that any tournament director awarding over $600 at a single tournament would be required to inform the IRS?

chuck, were you serious about your corporation paying your entry fees? i've been looking for some tax shelters.

harold, nice of you to stop counting your money long enough to comment /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif sorry i didn't want to give up my credit card number to your company the other day...after all, you do employ a lot of disc golfers :D

cgkdisc
Apr 21 2008, 10:49 PM
DGR: am i to understand that any tournament director awarding over $600 at a single tournament would be required to inform the IRS?
CK: Only if at least $600 in cash/merch are awarded to a single player, not if the overall purse is over $600.

DGR: chuck, were you serious about your corporation paying your entry fees? i've been looking for some tax shelters.
CK: Yes. Been doing it since I got in the sport in 1989. It's not really a tax shelter but I've been on my own since 1985 and was already incorporated so it made sense. I had enough consulting income to offset losses from DG. If you aren't incorporated, you're likely to get audited if you don't show a profit 2 out of 5 years. In a corp, you can theoretically lose money every year without it being a red flag. But it's also a little more paperwork and admin costs for both Fed and state filings.

underparmike
Apr 21 2008, 11:06 PM
sounds like a great excuse for a TD to cap all first place checks at $600.

what are the fed &amp; state admin fees on your corporation? i'm researching this because i'm tired of uncle sam taking so much of my income and giving it to rich people who enslave the middle class. when you think about income getting taxed at 40-50% and capital gains are only 15% there's huge advantages to a corporation. is your car and home in the corporations name too? is that how the rich do it?

MVP
Apr 21 2008, 11:12 PM
Do you know how much you have to make to get the income tax to 40-50% There is no tax rate that high. I would advise you to open a brokerage account and when you trade, pay the 15%. Oh by the way before the Bush (so called) tax cuts for the rich the top 1% paid 36% of taxes on 17% of the income. Now they pay 39%. Get your facts straight or just listen to the mainstream press and remain ignorant and angry!!!!!!!!!!

cgkdisc
Apr 21 2008, 11:20 PM
No annual fed or state fees other than for initial incorporating. But you have to prep income taxes for them in addition to your own personal tax filings each year. Just more paperwork. My corp pays me mileage at the Fed rate. I own the 1994 car. Big benefit is corp pays my medical both deductible and insurance now around $7000 this year (40% jump from last year due to turning 55 last month) as the only employee.

underparmike
Apr 21 2008, 11:24 PM
i guess titanium is one of the fools who believes that the 12% social security tax is not a tax (and uncle sam will magically pay our social security obligations which are over 15 trillion dollars to just the people already born)? i have my facts straight. do you even know what percent you pay for medicare?

MVP
Apr 21 2008, 11:33 PM
Thank your democrats for incorporating social security into the general fund. Do you know how much you will get out of Social Security if you live the normal life expectancy and receive the normal amount? You will get a return of 1% compounded annually! Great isn't it? You can do better in a money market paying 2.5% and get over twice as much. But it sounds like you like socialism! You've got it.....especially with your attitude!

underparmike
Apr 21 2008, 11:37 PM
Chuck, thanks for the tips. it really is easy for the rich like you and i to constantly fool folks like titanium. he thinks there's a difference between democrats and republicans!! oh the horror.

MVP
Apr 21 2008, 11:41 PM
When you study politics for 20 + years to the tune of 4-5hrs a day....you learn a thing or two. Too bad others only put 10 minutes a day for their info then tune in to the "Simpsons"

underparmike
Apr 21 2008, 11:48 PM
and yet, you still don't know how much the average american worker gets taxed. and you have no idea how much more the workers will get taxed in the future to pay for all the obligations to medicare and social security. but that Bush, he's a compassionate conservative. kills hundreds of thousands of iraqis while wounding and killing thousands of soldiers (Bush's idea of "compassionate"), and gives away more money to the old people in the form of the medicare Rx program that won him the election in 2004..."conservative". only fools believe Bush's lies.

no matter who you vote for in 2008, you lose.

MVP
Apr 21 2008, 11:52 PM
<font color="blue"> [personal attack removed] </font>

underparmike
Apr 21 2008, 11:59 PM
michael moore, like you, thinks there is a difference between democrats and republicans.

now if you'll please quit wasting bandwith, can i get back to asking Chuck about corporations so that i can retire by the time i'm 47?

MVP
Apr 22 2008, 12:10 AM
Go for it....and good luck. I hope you do retire by 47. Then you can find me on the course and rub it in.

MTL21676
Apr 22 2008, 09:44 AM
ID should be required for ANYONE to play in a PDGA tournament, IMHO.

Here is why I feel this way in the form of an example.

Mike Smith, a new player in the PDGA and just hitting some PDGA tournaments, does something and is suspended from PDGA play for 6 months. Mike really wants to play so he drives to another state and signs up as Mike Jones, a non PDGA member. Now we have a suspended player using an alias to play in an event.

What is to honestly prevent someone from doing this?

As a TD and someone who travels, I know lots of people. However, every tournament I run / play in, there are tons of people I don't know.

I am 100% for ID verification at all PDGA events. Sure, there is a chance someone gets thier brothers ID who looks like them, but there really is never a true way to prevent anyone from doing that, just as minors buy alcohol with a fake ID. Stuff like that will happen from time to time.

davidsauls
Apr 22 2008, 10:27 AM
66,658 tournament entries (2007)

13 suspended players.

What percentage of tournament entries do you suspect are suspended players sneaking in under an assumed name?

Is this a problem in need of a solution?

MTL21676
Apr 22 2008, 10:29 AM
probably 0.

However, the reason for IDing is mainly for non-PDGA members.

sandalman
Apr 22 2008, 12:28 PM
effective with the 2009, TDs of A tier and above will receive a supply of these as part of their sanctioning kit.



http://www.kerchner.com/images/roots/dnatestkit.jpg

Apr 22 2008, 02:27 PM
Give them that number from the LifeLock add. I would not enter the tournament otherwise.



Brilliant!

underparmike
Apr 22 2008, 07:59 PM
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/opinion/ssi/images/Toles/c_11012006_520.gif

underparmike
Apr 22 2008, 08:04 PM
As a TD and someone who travels, I know lots of people. However, every tournament I run / play in, there are tons of people I don't know.





and there are an equal number who would like to keep it that way ;)

underparmike
Apr 23 2008, 06:16 PM
i guess grampa republican went to bed on monday and fell into a bitter sleep while clutching his guns and religion tightly /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

if Hillary steals the November election, I'm moving to Singapore. What the F were they thinking in Pennsylvania? Another 4 years in the Bush/Clinton torture chamber will bring the American Empire to its knees! Of the two dems left standing, Obama is the better choice.

Don't be fooled by media hysteria putting Jeremiah Wright's and William Ayers's words in Obama's mouth. This is the media serving their corporate masters who want another 4 years of Clinton so they can finish looting the American Empire's "Federal" Reserve...and your future Social Security benefits!

Obama has promised peace in Iraq. Is that such a crime to promise to end a war which has dragged on longer than World War 2? Isn't it worth taking the chance on voting for peace?

To those of you asking for more war, why do you believe the lies that the government tells you, that the cost of the war in blood and dollars is worth it? These same people who have brought you $4 diesel and a housing bust and a recession are lying to us about the war! Why do you trust them? Why do you let them kill our sons and daughters for sand dunes too far away to matter? Is Oil worth any price?

Lyrics to "For Whom the Bell Tolls" by Metallica (check it out on YouTube...they have a great live version with Cliff Burton playing bass)

Make his fight on the hill in the early day
Constant chill deep inside
Shouting gun, on they run through the endless gray
On they fight, for they're right, yes, but who's to say?
For a hill, men would kill. Why? They do not know
Stiffened wounds test their pride
Men of five, still alive through the raging glow
Gone insane from the pain that they surely know

For whom the bell tolls
Time marches on
For whom the bell tolls

Take a look to the sky just before you die
It's the last time you will.
Blackened roar, massive roar, fills the crumbling sky
Shattered goal fills his soul with a ruthless cry
Stranger now are his eyes to this mystery
Hears the silence so loud
Crack of dawn, all is gone except the will to be
Now they see what will be, blinded eyes do see

For whom the bell tolls
Time marches on
For whom the bell tolls

gotcha
Apr 23 2008, 09:02 PM
Click here (http://www.irs.gov/newsroom/article/0,,id=175963,00.html) for information on reporting miscellaneous income. The dollar amount (or prize value) matters not to the Internal Revenue Service.

A person is not required to provide their Tax Identification Number. If a payee refuses to provide a TIN, the IRS recommends "backup withholding" at a rate of 28%.

lazlong
Apr 23 2008, 11:52 PM
" Obama has promised peace in Iraq. Is that such a crime to promise to end a war which has dragged on longer than World War 2? Isn't it worth taking the chance on voting for peace? "

just wanted to point out that about 35,000 of our soldiers died in WW2. where as with iraq it's 2000 casualties.

Alacrity
Apr 24 2008, 03:33 PM
Since ranting has commenced........

The price of oil is not set by Democrats or Republicans, it is not set by the big oil companies or the service stations, it is not set by the American wealthy. It is partially set by OPEC and by buyers, sellers and traders of oil commodities. It is substainlly set by the supply available and the demand. Do the rich get richer from oil prices? Absolutely if they are inolved in oil. Do the oil companies make money from higher prices? Ceratainly they do, but for every person complaining about the price of oil please don't forget to complain when oil companies are loosing money. I am a victim of oil company layoffs due to lose of profits, I know the cost to the individual when they are loosing money.

Next, are the oil companies responsible for the price of gasoline? Yes and no. There are a lot of refineries in the US that are independent of the oil producers and they have to buy that expensive oil before they can make gasoline and diesel. They will go belly up if they don't charge the consumer what it costs plus a fair profit. Are they making a fair profit? Some refieneries would argue no some will admit yes. My opinion is that they are turning profits. I mainly base this on the fact that almost every refinery in the US is currently upgrading their facilities to better produce carbon fuels and, big "and" here folks, AND to meet the US requirements for cleaner fuels.

Once again, I don't remember a huge outcry when refeneries were just barely making it and some even shutdown. I seem to also remember being victem to a layoff when very little new work was being done in refineries. Many refineries over the last 20 years have done next to nothing to update their facilities. When things broke down, they either patched it or didn't use it. Today almost every refinery is trying to catch up. They are making money.

Really if you want the price of oil and gasoline to go down then you need to reduce the demand significantly. Probably not going to happen until the price is so high only the wealthy can afford to buy it. That may come to pass.....

rant for the day....

sandalman
Apr 24 2008, 04:16 PM
just wanted to point out that about 35,000 of our soldiers died in WW2. where as with iraq it's 2000 casualties.

2000? come on, at least try to check facts. you were right, but 2 years ago.

this is from wiki, but the article is sourced. the numbers are only for US armed forces:

4,000 dead as of March 2008. As of March 2008 there were 8,914 wounded requiring medical air transport. 20,416 wounded did not require medical air transport. Of all the wounded 13,109 were unable to return to duty within 72 hours. Medical air transport was required for an additional 8,273 for non-hostile injuries, and for 23,052 for diseases or other medical conditions.

dryhistory
Apr 24 2008, 05:31 PM
just wanted to point out that about 35,000 of our soldiers died in WW2. where as with iraq it's 2000 casualties.

2000? come on, at least try to check facts. you were right, but 2 years ago.

this is from wiki, but the article is sourced. the numbers are only for US armed forces:

4,000 dead as of March 2008. As of March 2008 there were 8,914 wounded requiring medical air transport. 20,416 wounded did not require medical air transport. Of all the wounded 13,109 were unable to return to duty within 72 hours. Medical air transport was required for an additional 8,273 for non-hostile injuries, and for 23,052 for diseases or other medical conditions.



plus those who die of their wounds and injuries once extracted from iraq are not counted on the list of those killed in action. so 4000 is under the actual number of dead.

gnduke
Apr 24 2008, 05:31 PM
Even if Obama could wave a wand and remove all US troops from Iraw and Afganistan in a single day, he would in no way be guaranteeing peace in either country.

He would most likely be guaranteeing a generation of increased bloodshed. Power abhors a vacuum.

reallybadputter
Apr 24 2008, 05:50 PM
just wanted to point out that about 35,000 of our soldiers died in WW2. where as with iraq it's 2000 casualties.

2000? come on, at least try to check facts. you were right, but 2 years ago.

this is from wiki, but the article is sourced. the numbers are only for US armed forces:

4,000 dead as of March 2008. As of March 2008 there were 8,914 wounded requiring medical air transport. 20,416 wounded did not require medical air transport. Of all the wounded 13,109 were unable to return to duty within 72 hours. Medical air transport was required for an additional 8,273 for non-hostile injuries, and for 23,052 for diseases or other medical conditions.



35,000 in WWII????

Uhhh... more like ~417,000 in WW II.

sandalman
Apr 24 2008, 06:16 PM
Even if Obama could wave a wand and remove all US troops from Iraw and Afganistan in a single day, he would in no way be guaranteeing peace in either country.

He would most likely be guaranteeing a generation of increased bloodshed. Power abhors a vacuum.

so does staying. or going in the first place. thats Republican foresight for ya.

lazlong
Apr 24 2008, 11:23 PM
" 35,000 in WWII????

Uhhh... more like ~417,000 in WW II. "

WOW! didn't realize so many. being that the population of the US was around 38,000,000 then, that's a very large percentage when compared to 4000 dead with a population of 300,000,000. look, i'm not saying that any death is good but, the argument isn't valid with me being that so many people died in other wars compared to this one.

enough with the political rhetoric. start another thread for the bush bashing.

gnduke
Apr 25 2008, 10:50 AM
Even if Obama could wave a wand and remove all US troops from Iraq and Afganistan in a single day, he would in no way be guaranteeing peace in either country.

He would most likely be guaranteeing a generation of increased bloodshed. Power abhors a vacuum.

so does staying. or going in the first place. thats Republican foresight for ya.



Which helps prove my point that Obama can not reasonably guarantee peace in Iraq.

sandalman
Apr 25 2008, 11:25 AM
did he make that gaurantee?

davidsauls
Apr 25 2008, 11:44 AM
... being that the population of the US was around 38,000,000 then....



Give or take 100 million

accidentalROLLER
Apr 25 2008, 12:00 PM
LOL

gnduke
Apr 25 2008, 01:48 PM
did he make that gaurantee?



My original post was in response to Mikey, and in there he said that Obama promised peace in Iraq. I quess I paraphrased that to guarantee.

Dick
Apr 25 2008, 02:17 PM
back to the original post:

1. return the forms without the ssn. i'm sure you'll be fine. If the td has a problem he can call you up and expain exactly why he needs it.
2. Get lifelock! I have it and it is worth it just for the reduction in junk mail and credit card offers alone! If you are worried about personal info and identity theft, it's a great investment.

dryhistory
Apr 25 2008, 03:00 PM
the original post was boring, this stuff is so much better :D

lazlong
Apr 26 2008, 04:06 AM
" Give or take 100 million "
I stand corrected. U.S. population in 1940: 132,164,569
http://geography.about.com/od/obtainpopulationdata/a/uspop.htm

MVP
Apr 26 2008, 09:28 AM
WorldNetDaily Exclusive
U.S. military deaths below 26-year average
Annual toll in Bush years down despite 4,000 fatalities in Iraq

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted: April 25, 2008
12:10 am Eastern

� 2008 WorldNetDaily



WASHINGTON � Despite suffering 4,000 deaths in Iraq, annual U.S. military casualties overall during the first six years of the Bush administration are well below the average for the 26-year period beginning in 1980, a WND investigation has revealed.

Even in 2005, the deadliest year of the Iraq campaign, U.S. troop fatalities around the world, including Afghanistan, were lower than the first nine years of the study � when the Cold War was still raging in a time of relative peace.

In 2005, a total of 1,942 U.S. military personnel were killed in all causes, including accidents, hostile action, homicides, illnesses, suicides, etc. That compares to 2,392 in 1980, the last year of President Jimmy Carter's administration. In fact, twice as many U.S. military personnel were killed in accidents in that one year than were killed in hostile actions in any year of the Bush administration.

The analysis of statistics compiled by the Department of Defense also shows, despite a major increase in deaths due to hostile actions beginning in 2003 with the advent of the Iraq war, the annual toll on U.S. troops did not skyrocket above peacetime norms as many might expect. For instance, in 1993, the first year of the peacetime Clinton administration, 1,293 U.S. servicemen lost their lives � just 649 fewer than in 2005, the hottest year of the Iraq war.

(Story continues below)

lazlong
Apr 26 2008, 11:37 AM
" WorldNetDaily Exclusive
U.S. military deaths below 26-year average
Annual toll in Bush years down despite 4,000 fatalities in Iraq "

Does this include the 11,000 suicides a year the VA has been lying about?

reallybadputter
Apr 26 2008, 09:00 PM
" WorldNetDaily Exclusive
U.S. military deaths below 26-year average
Annual toll in Bush years down despite 4,000 fatalities in Iraq "

Does this include the 11,000 suicides a year the VA has been lying about?



You know... on this thread, every number you've quoted has been wrong so far... so unless you can give me some solid source, I hate to say it, I'm not going to believe you.

chainmeister
Apr 28 2008, 03:56 PM
Even if Obama could wave a wand and remove all US troops from Iraw and Afganistan in a single day, he would in no way be guaranteeing peace in either country.

He would most likely be guaranteeing a generation of increased bloodshed. Power abhors a vacuum.



You are so correct. The reality is that as much as I want the troops home it would be immoral to leave that vacuum. This is the legacy that our incumbant has left his successor. They are stuck between the scylla of a 100 year (McCain's words) war and the Charibydis of a power vacuum. As horrible as Sadaam was, he held power and there was no vaccum. We went into Iraq on fraudulant terms at a time when the entire world supported us and we were hunting a real enemy in Afganistan. The incumbant took a right turn and has left all the candidates and likely my great grandchildren with this horrible mess of a war. When Obama wins, his legacy will be tarnished as he will be the first of many Presidents to attempt to disentangle us from the incumbant's nearly empire breaking blunder. The minute he invaded I asked if he had ever played chess and had any concept of endgame. I then sang a song to my bike club (I sang all the ride reports), with new words based on an old tune, "And its one, two, three, what are we fighting for...)

jlm1120
Apr 28 2008, 05:06 PM
Not only the amount of death that is happening in a country where no american should be in or go to, how about the amount of money that is being spent each day in IRAQ. Check the figures on that (if you can)... And people wonder why we are going into a recession...

(just my one cent...bush taxed the other one)

Pizza God
Apr 29 2008, 01:21 PM
Here's what Obama said about Afghanistan: "We've got to get the job done there, and that requires us to have enough troops so that we're not just air-raiding villages and killing civilians, which is causing enormous pressure over there."

"Genocide is underway in Darfur, Sudan. Already, 50,000 African Muslims have been killed and 1.2 million displaced by the Sudanese Government and by Arab Janjaweed militias armed and encouraged by Khartoum. The Bush Administration itself warned of the magnitude of the crisis, if no action is taken. Andrew Natsios, head of USAID, said in June that "if nothing changes we will have one million casualties." We cannot, in good conscience, stand by and let this genocide continue.

"Next, the United States should support the immediate deployment of an effective international force to disarm militia, protect civilians and facilitate delivery of humanitarian assistance in Darfur. Thus far, the African Union has offered 3,000 troops and the United Kingdom has indicated that they would offer some troops. However, international pressure is required for the Sudan regime to accept an international peacekeeping force. The U.S. must ensure humanitarian intervention with or without Sudanese government permission. And, we should urge European governments who are not willing to send troops to Iraq to take on this mission.

I don't oppose all wars. What I am opposed to is a dumb war. What I am opposed to is a rash war.



So Obama is for getting out of Iraq because ''We're not going to baby sit a civil war'' [my favorate Obama quote] but wants to send the troop from Iraq to Afganistan.

Then you can see from his Dalfur quotes, he would probably send troop into Dalfur, another oil producing country, another war for oil. [btw, China buys most of the Dalfur oil]

gotcha
Apr 29 2008, 08:56 PM
http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc184/gotcherj/sudangeno-1.jpg (http://s214.photobucket.com/albums/cc184/gotcherj/?action=view&current=sudangeno-1.jpg)