Here is the situation: I played in the Advanced Women�s division at the 2008 Higher Flyer Memorial in Huntington Beach, CA. There were three of us in Advance Women�s Division, myself, Laurie Stroh and Megan Stroh and one Intermediate Women, Iris Beyeler. After the first round, the two women�s divisions, Intermediate and Advanced were placed on the same card. Not one time was any thing ever said to myself or the Stroh�s (they will verify if you need them to) that the Intermediate was playing in the Advanced division, not by the player or the TD. At the end of the round, the scores were turned in and I checked the Tournament Results (which I have a screen capture of if you need it) and the results read as follow: Advanced Women: Kerri Vogel 133 Megan Stroh 136 and Laurie Stroh 140. Intermediate Women: Iris Beyeler 128. OK no problem. Next morning last round, Players Board lists was as follow (I have a picture of this as well) Iris B (Women Inter) 128 Kerri V 133 Megan S 136 and Laurie S 140. We played the round and I never once thought about anything Iris was doing or what her score was, even though she was leading by 5 strokes. After the round was over we all congratulated each other Laurie said �Nice win Kerri!� We turn the card in and the three Advanced Women find out after all is said and done that Iris was playing in the Advanced division and was awarded 1st place in the Advance Women�s Division. Now here are the problems that I have with this:
1. <font color="red"> </font> She entered the tournament as an Intermediate Player, paid entry fee for the Intermediate division, after the final round card was turned in, right in front of myself and the other Advanced Women, she paid the entry fee difference of $10 to bump to the Advanced Division.
2. The TD never once stated to any players during the tournament she was in the Advance Division.
3. The 1st and 2nd round results show her as Intermediate Women on the Tournament Results page.
4. On the last round card, it shows her as Intermediate Women, clearly stated.
How then can she win the Advanced Division? Is there anything that can done about this? Please let me know if there are any rules talking about this, because I was unable to find anything. This was very upsetting to all the Advanced Women. Thank you for your help in this matter.

You won't get an answer here. Contact PDGA HQ with your story at [email protected] for official resolution.

I am only trying to get a feel for how people would feel if this situation happened to them. I have emailed the tour manager. Thank you for the heads up, I appreciate your help.

I'm sure there is at least one other side to the story, but the way it is presented above illustrates an improper result, IMHO.

Sounds like the TD encouraged the Int player to play up so there wasn't a 'one person' division, possibly including that he wouldn't charge her more for it. Perhaps the communication was lacking, but I can see why this was done. We often have this problem where a small handful of women players want to register in multiple divisions, and sometimes try to get them to all play together. After all, a 4-some has to be more fun than 3 and a spectator, right? And it is, after all, for the fun of it?

Hopefully all of the Advanced players were gracious in congratulating the Int player for her fine performance while 'playing up' in their division.

Sounds like the TD encouraged the Int player to play up so there wasn't a 'one person' division, possibly including that he wouldn't charge her more for it. Perhaps the communication was lacking, but I can see why this was done. We often have this problem where a small handful of women players want to register in multiple divisions, and sometimes try to get them to all play together. After all, a 4-some has to be more fun than 3 and a spectator, right? And it is, after all, for the fun of it?

Hopefully all of the Advanced players were gracious in congratulating the Int player for her fine performance while 'playing up' in their division.




The problem is that you shouldn't be able to bump up or down after you have already played 2 rounds.

It is my understanding the player asked to be moved up BEFORE the first round. It is unfortunate that this was not communicated to the other players or the volunteer staff in charge of the score boards.

Or the person who put the scores up with her still listed in Int.

It is my understanding the player asked to be moved up BEFORE the first round. It is unfortunate that this was not communicated to the other players or the volunteer staff in charge of the score boards.



My assumption was the same in regards to my post. We've tried encouraging the lower tiered players to play up by agreeing to not charge them more than what the lower tiered entry fee would be. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

I once played an entire tournament without knowing what division I was in. Long, funny story now, but it was exasperating at the time. What happened to you was probably FUBAR, but it happens.

I wonder if the player would of moved up if she was down 15 strokes. I am guessing not, and that is why you can not play a couple rounds and pick your division based on how you are doing.

In a local unsanctioned doubles tournament a team tried to do the same thing. Since it was unsanctioned most of the AM1 teams played open. I think there were only 2 AM1 teams and after the 1st round 1 of them would have been leading open. That team asked to move up, but the TD did the right thing and did not let them move up.

Kerry, you know what sucks? I entered to play in your division and ya'll would've had 4 Advanced women. But I got my entry fee in too late and the only other option I was given was to pay more to donate more $$$ to the open women. So I opted out.

I'd be fuming beyond belief if I was you and I suggest writing to where it counts - the email address given above, as Chuck suggested.

Please let us know the outcome! But yeah, to pay AFTER the rounds and STILL be listed as Int. after 2 rounds played is wrong on ALL counts!

The funny thing about that is Will looked very confused when that was brought up, and then he asked if he collected the money to bump up, she said no, and to collect it at the end of the rounds and in front of the card she was playing against was totally wrong.

The funny thing about that is Will looked very confused when that was brought up, and then he asked if he collected the money to bump up, she said no, and to collect it at the end of the rounds and in front of the card she was playing against was totally wrong.



Wil's a long time player. He should have known better! I can't believe he let this happen! You have a PM, btw.

I absolutely went to the player and congratulated her on the win, this was her first tournament. I have nothing personal against the player she beat me. I always incourage women to come out and play, but if this is going to happen they will not come out. If this had happened in the mens division I honestly do not think this would have stood. I was asked, "If she hadn't placed 1st in the Advanced Division would she still have said she was playing in that division or would she have stayed in Intermediate?" I will never know.

[QUOTE]
Sounds like the TD encouraged the Int player to play up so there wasn't a 'one person' division, possibly including that he wouldn't charge her more for it. Perhaps the communication was lacking, but I can see why this was done. We often have this problem where a small handful of women players want to register in multiple divisions, and sometimes try to get them to all play together. After all, a 4-some has to be more fun than 3 and a spectator, right? And it is, after all, for the fun of it?
[QUOTE]

It was not the TD that wanted to move her up. Funny thing about that is he already had the 1st place intermediate trophy and players pack all laid out like nothing had ever changed.

Kerry, you know what sucks? I entered to play in your division and ya'll would've had 4 Advanced women. But I got my entry fee in too late and the only other option I was given was to pay more to donate more $$$ to the open women. So I opted out.

I'd be fuming beyond belief if I was you and I suggest writing to where it counts - the email address given above, as Chuck suggested.

Please let us know the outcome! But yeah, to pay AFTER the rounds and STILL be listed as Int. after 2 rounds played is wrong on ALL counts!


I have contacted Dave and he is investigating it. I know you would have been upset also. Saturday night the scores on PDGA also had her listed as Int. It all just stunk. I will tell you this, I will NOT play in this tourney again. I will definately let you know how it turns out.

Kerry, you have a Private Message from me.

As TD for this event I take full responsibility for the miscommunication involved with this issue. I won't dump it on my volunteers. However, I will NOT be responsible for lack of communication within one group nor the failure of any one person in a group to enforce the rules of play.

The fact is Iris DID notify me BEFORE the first round of her desire to move up and play with other women as opposed to juniors or extras from other divisions. I told her it would cost more and she agreed to that.
There were other people that also made last minute changes and some of them were also allowed to settle up financially later.

Was it fair? It was no more or less fair than if I had told HER she did not win because I failed to broadcast her move or collect her money right away.

I apologize for not being on top of the division listings but the bottom line is that Iris scored better overall than the others in her group and ALL of them received prizes.

I have played Int Mens and have seen an unrated player card a better score then anyone in Advanced after the first round. The TD made him jump up to Advanced. He ended up like 3rd in Advanced. He would have crushed anyone in Intermediate. Was it fair he had to move up?

As TD for this event I take full responsibility for the miscommunication involved with this issue. I won't dump it on my volunteers. However, I will NOT be responsible for lack of communication within one group nor the failure of any one person in a group to enforce the rules of play.

The fact is Iris DID notify me BEFORE the first round of her desire to move up and play with other women as opposed to juniors or extras from other divisions. I told her it would cost more and she agreed to that.
There were other people that also made last minute changes and some of them were also allowed to settle up financially later.

Was it fair? It was no more or less fair than if I had told HER she did not win because I failed to broadcast her move or collect her money right away.

I apologize for not being on top of the division listings but the bottom line is that Iris scored better overall than the others in her group and ALL of them received prizes.



In regards to the other people that moved, did their division know they were playing against them? I'm sure you had their names and divisions listed correctly.
Was it fair? she knew who she was playing against. The others in the division had no idea, so is that fair?
As for ALL of us receiving our prizes, wasn't the pay out for our division to 3rd place? Fortunately for me it is not about the prizes or what place I took, it is about the game, the rules of the game, the competition and the camaraderie of playing with others. Yes, she beat me, I congratulated her for it. I had no problem with that and if people think that is why I have posted this they are dead wrong.

I have played Int Mens and have seen an unrated player card a better score then anyone in Advanced after the first round. The TD made him jump up to Advanced. He ended up like 3rd in Advanced. He would have crushed anyone in Intermediate. Was it fair he had to move up?


No I don't think that was fair especially if he had no player rating. He propably didn't know better even though he played so well, that might have been his first tournament. The next tournament he entered he should have been moved up. Did everyone know that he had been moved up or did they find out after all was said and done?

If it went down the way you describe, the TD is not running a fair tournament in my opinion. If there was a decision to bump her up, it should have been communicated directly to all those affected, and at a minimum it should have been stated at the players meeting prior to the final round. Smart players play a different strategy when they are in the lead vs. trailing by a few strokes. I�m sure if you knew that she was in your division and leading by a couple strokes you would have been more aggressive on some shots to try and close the gap. Conversely, since you were under the impression she was in a different division and you were leading the Advanced group, you would play conservative or aggressive with your shots based on what your competition was doing (strategic play). You should not have to play strategically against someone on your card that is in a different division � in hopes that the TD isn�t going to bump them up and steal your win. If the decision was made BEFORE the tournament started � it needed to be communicated to the affected players � plain &amp; simple. If none of the players in your division honestly knew she was competing against you, she should not have been awarded the win. My .02

K here's my issue on this subject. I don't believe that if you truly wanted to know what people thought of this you wouldn't have listed any names. I don't think you should have done this, now you have said your side of the story which is only what you think happened and not what you know happened. I traveled there with the girl who moved up and she asked me if she should move up before the tourney officially started and the pros were even sent out to start the round(pros tee'd off 3 hours before the ams). Technically she moved up before the tourney even started for anyone. So this whole thing in a nut shell was a miscommunication issue by the TD. He forgot that she moved up, and forgot to mark it on the scorecards, which misled anyone who looked at the scores. He made an honest mistake but did nothing wrong by letting her stay in the advanced division. So if your never gonna show up to this tourney again because the TD made an honest mistake that's your choice. But don't go around just saying your side of the story and making her and the TD look bad. You shouldn't have posted the names of the players, it's unnecessary. This issue should be being taken care of professionally not here over the internet. If you really don't believe what's been told to you and you think something else went down, then you, the TD, and the Girls on your card should be the only ones discussing this with someone from the PDGA! Sorry I just don't like how this is turning out, when I for a fact know she moved up before the tourney officially started for all divisions. She did nothing wrong and the way some people acted in my opinion was ridiculous. I was a witness to this and this is my side of the story.

...this was her first tournament.



And from the private communication I have received from her, this may be her last tournament. :(

...this was her first tournament.



And from the private communication I have received from her, this may be her last tournament. :(


Darn. Winning &amp; walking away??? What is driving her away?

Did she tell the other ladies on her card she was playing in their division at any time?

see below

...this was her first tournament.



And from the private communication I have received from her, this may be her last tournament. :(


Darn. Winning &amp; walking away??? What is driving her away?



Gosh, I am practically reprinting her entire email here and without her permission. But here are her words. I hope she doesn't mind.



...i will talk with EDITED whether or not we will come to the EDITED tournament. It sounds very awesome. but to be honest... right now i don't feel like playing other tournaments. this whole circus about my changing division (which i communicated to my group - but as English is not my mother tongue they maybe didn't understand) is pushing me down and i also feel very sorry for the TD and the others who had all this work and now getting attacked for my changing. it is just not the environment i like to play disc golf. i want to have fun to encourage each other to get better and to congratulate somebody for awesome throws and to try them out myself...

D'oh!! I did it again. I wish you could remove posts altogether when you make mistakes.

Poop. Sounds like she needs some genteel Virginia disc golf to restore her faith in the "spirit of the game". :)

Poop. Sounds like she needs some genteel Virginia disc golf to restore her faith in the "spirit of the game". :)



We would WELCOME her in Oregon, as well. :D

Where we regularly have LARGE fields of BOTH Adv &amp; Int Women.
:cool::D

ORS event #1 (http://www.pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=7860)

ORS event #2 (http://www.pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=7807)

Did she tell the other ladies on her card she was playing in their division at any time?



No she did not. Not to me or the others on the card/division.

K here's my issue on this subject. I don't believe that if you truly wanted to know what people thought of this you wouldn't have listed any names. I don't think you should have done this, now you have said your side of the story which is only what you think happened and not what you know happened. I traveled there with the girl who moved up and she asked me if she should move up before the tourney officially started and the pros were even sent out to start the round(pros tee'd off 3 hours before the ams). Technically she moved up before the tourney even started for anyone. So this whole thing in a nut shell was a miscommunication issue by the TD. He forgot that she moved up, and forgot to mark it on the scorecards, which misled anyone who looked at the scores. He made an honest mistake but did nothing wrong by letting her stay in the advanced division. So if your never gonna show up to this tourney again because the TD made an honest mistake that's your choice. But don't go around just saying your side of the story and making her and the TD look bad. You shouldn't have posted the names of the players, it's unnecessary. This issue should be being taken care of professionally not here over the internet. If you really don't believe what's been told to you and you think something else went down, then you, the TD, and the Girls on your card should be the only ones discussing this with someone from the PDGA! Sorry I just don't like how this is turning out, when I for a fact know she moved up before the tourney officially started for all divisions. She did nothing wrong and the way some people acted in my opinion was ridiculous. I was a witness to this and this is my side of the story.



In Kerry's defense -- this thread is called the Higher Flyers Memorial and since it's the same name as the tournament, it would be easy as pie for anyone and everyone to look up 1) who the TD was and 2) who the players were.

This is an unfortunate situation and the TD has posted here that he apologizes for the miscommunication. What else can he do?

Kerry, how would this be resolved for you?
I see Laurie was also in your group. What did Rules Guru Rhett have to say about this -- AT the time it happened?

Did she tell the other ladies on her card she was playing in their division at any time?



No she did not. Not to me or the others on the card/division.



I agree - she should have told the other ladies she was moving up to their division. But being her first tournament, we have to give her a lot of rope here, I feel. There's just no win/win situation here. :(

Did she tell the other ladies on her card she was playing in their division at any time?



No she did not. Not to me or the others on the card/division.



And you thought she was playing in another division because....?

I'm sorry, but if some one is on my card I assume they are playing in my division. Especially if 3 out of the 4 players on the card are known to be playing in my division.

So are we going to penalize an obviously talented player due to miscommunication from the TD? Who has apologized by the way. Maybe we should have him stripped of his TD card for being human. You might as well take mine too because the last time I tried walking across my swimming pool my ankles got wet. I guess I'm a little south of perfection myself.

The bottom line is she still had the better score, and she did not cheat in any way. Put a period at the end and turn the page.

Did she tell the other ladies on her card she was playing in their division at any time?



No she did not. Not to me or the others on the card/division.



And you thought she was playing in another division because....?

I'm sorry, but if some one is on my card I assume they are playing in my division. Especially if 3 out of the 4 players on the card are known to be playing in my division.

So are we going to penalize an obviously talented player due to miscommunication from the TD? Who has apologized by the way. Maybe we should have him stripped of his TD card for being human. You might as well take mine too because the last time I tried walking across my swimming pool my ankles got wet. I guess I'm a little south of perfection myself.

The bottom line is she still had the better score, and she did not cheat in any way. Put a period at the end and turn the page.




She thought she was in another division because she was listed on the board as being in another division.


You assume everyone on you card is in your division? I have been in a few events where odd division numbers cause a card or two to be mixed and one of those cards is usually the ladies' card. How would you know anyway considering you have no PDGA events.

She did have a better score but if I am in a tournament I always know the scores of the people playing with me but that is when they are all open players and when it is a mixed card I don't pay much attention to those in the other division.

You assume everyone on you card is in your division? <font color="red">Yes, and if I feel there is something not kosher I approach the TD about it </font> I have been in a few events where odd division numbers cause a card or two to be mixed and one of those cards is usually the ladies' card. <font color="red">All the more reason why we need more ladies in this sport. One has already expressed that she may not play another tournament. How many others have read this thread and are contemplating the same? </font> How would you know anyway considering you have no PDGA events. <font color="red">You are correct, but that is between doctors and myself, but thanks for your interest in my profile. :D </font>

She did have a better score but if I am in a tournament I always know the scores of the people playing with me but that is when they are all open players and when it is a mixed card I don't pay much attention to those in the other division.
<font color="red">
This is still a situation that should have been handled through an appeals process, not the messageboard. I can very well understand how some one can feel they were shortchanged in this situation (insert your favorite cliche' here)but it is time to move forward don't you think? Go out and win the next tournament. If you need vindication, and we usually all do, remember this cliche' "Success is the best form of revenge." My 2 cents, and it may be overpriced at that.</font>

She thought she was in another division because BOTH the board at the tournament AND on this site said the gal was playing in intermediate division. Kerry has the photos to prove it too so I can see why EVERYONE or ANYONE looking at the board or the pdga scores sites would also assume same fact - that after 2 rounds on Sat. this gal was still listed as an intermediate.

Since we now have 5 Advanced women players in So Cal who come out pretty regularly, I've had to play WITH the Intermediate players since my last name starts with a "W" and they're doing it alphabetically, in every So Cal event so far. I'm tempted to drop down to that division since my scores (and rating) dictate that I can. But all the Intermediate players know that I've been put in their group due to ligistics, not anything else. So to assume everyone on your card is in your division is just not a safe rule to adhere to.

You know... If I thought someone was in a lower division, playing on my card, and beating me soundly on the course; I'm sure I would be asking them, "Why are you playing in X division? You seem like you belong up in Y division".

You know... If I thought someone was in a lower division, playing on my card, and beating me soundly on the course; I'm sure I would be asking them, "Why are you playing in X division? You seem like you belong up in Y division".



Ratings. It's all based on ratings. Unless you play the central valley series. Those TD's are anti-PDGA and will place you in the division THEY think you should play in, NOT the one you're rated to play in or the one you sign up to play in!

PS. And they won't even notify you. So if you sign up for one of their non-PDGA events, check the board to see where they've decided to place you. Any titles you've obtained in the past 10 years WILL be held against you, even if your rating is in the 700 range!

First this is a Message Board right? I HAVE sent this to the Tour Manager. The reason I have posted this is because I wanted to get the opinions of other players. You don't have to read or comment on it if you don't want to, but the fact is this is a discussion board and I am free to post what I would like opinions on.
Second, I have NEVER made this personal but some posters have. This has NOTHING personal to do with the player. I DID congratulate her on her win. I even went up and explained to her and her boyfriend, that what happened had NOTHING personal to do with her. WHAT part of that do you people not understand? I am sorry she does not want to play in another tournament, but that is her choice. Our division was blindsided and we didn't think it was fair. The Womens division does play diversely. We don't always have full cards, but we know who is playing in what division because of the board and/or the computer and/or it is communicated. There could be 10 females, 6 adv 4 inter, we have been grouped everywich way possible. I understand the rules and regulations on playing and grouping of players.
My question has been: If this happened to you or your division, wouldn't you question it and do you think it was fair? :confused:

I hope that I have finally gotten across that this has nothing personal to do with Iris. She did shoot a better score than I did. This should never have happened and hopefully it will never happen again. It won't happen to me again that is FOR SURE. :D

[QUOTE]

Kerry, how would this be resolved for you?
I see Laurie was also in your group. What did Rules Guru Rhett have to say about this -- AT the time it happened?

<font color="purple"> </font> I just got an email from Dave and he asked if I received an email from Will yet. So it looks like the decision is up to Will, which means that it will stand as is. Rhett said, "NO, that isn't right!! She was listed this morning as Intermediate Women."

You know... If I thought someone was in a lower division, playing on my card, and beating me soundly on the course; I'm sure I would be asking them, "Why are you playing in X division? You seem like you belong up in Y division".



Ratings. It's all based on ratings. Unless you play the central valley series. Those TD's are anti-PDGA and will place you in the division THEY think you should play in, NOT the one you're rated to play in or the one you sign up to play in!



I'm a firm believer in ratings. My point is that in the idle chit-chat between holes, I'm surprised that it didn't come out that everyone on the card in this instance was indeed in the same division. You played how many rounds together? (rhetorical question, no answer needed)

From what is posted here, I feel sorry for the new player and it sounds like she should do what I have seen other women do when it gets like this: play in the men's divisions.

This is NOT Kerri's fault! Please stop slamming her! It's very unfortunate this all happened at all and should have been resolved right then and there, on the spot. Yes, it's unfair. But how to fix it AND still be fair?

This is a tough one but no need to bash Kerri for speaking up!! Kerri, I applaud you for speaking up!!

This is NOT Kerri's fault! Please stop slamming her! It's very unfortunate this all happened at all and should have been resolved right then and there, on the spot. Yes, it's unfair. But how to fix it AND still be fair?

This is a tough one but no need to bash Kerri for speaking up!! Kerri, I applaud you for speaking up!!



Thanks Winnetka_FrisbeeGirl. You play in this division with me, too bad you missed this one cause it was a doosie. See ya soon. :cool:

From what is posted here, I feel sorry for the new player and it sounds like she should do what I have seen other women do when it gets like this: play in the men's divisions.



Might not be a bad idea, because we know this would NEVER have happened in the men's division.

From what is posted here, I feel sorry for the new player and it sounds like she should do what I have seen other women do when it gets like this: play in the men's divisions.



Might not be a bad idea, because we know this would NEVER have happened in the men's division.



Well, I could see it happening in the men's division...

Player tells TD he wants to move up from being the only REC to play INT, but TD gets distracted and the player has already signed their card that is a different color from the INT players. Player shoots pretty well...would have been top 4 in INT.

The difference here is when he gets placed with the bottom 3 in advanced, he has a chance to realize that the TD may have forgotten. But if he's brand new, he might not say anything... And I've known enough disc golfers that would be clueless even if their card was a different color and said REC in 36 point font on it...

So it could happen. Just less likely to be noticed with divisions of 3 and 1 vs. 16 and 1...

And of course you're throwing in a language barrier...

If I was TD and I realized I had made that mistake, I'd probably suck it up and pay out both the winner and the "winner" with what the winners should get.

Other than plastic and a trophy, Kerri isn't out anything... she still gets the same number of points since either way she beat two players... except for being able to put on her resume Won XXX Disc Golf Tournament...

So, if I realized the mistake, that's what I would do to make the players whole, but that and say "Yup... I forgot... I screwed up..."

Since there are other threads about how TDs shouldn't get any compensation and should volunteer out of the goodness of their heart, one should have compassion when the unpaid good samaritans occasionally commit a gaff...