Here are some course stat nuggets from the 2007 sanctioned events. We have SSA values for 2468 course layouts. The average SSA, adjusted to the 18-hole equivalent where needed, was 51.2 with 75% of all course layouts between 46 and 56 SSA. This is less than 2 shots average increase from the 49.5 value recorded in 1999.

The highest SSAs recorded were at the Gateway Open with 71.6 from the Red tees and 72.1 from the Blues. I think this was the Centralia course in Illinois.

A total of 773 different courses (no count of permanent vs temps) had sanctioned rounds. La Mirada had the most layouts rated with 17 on file. Draw your own conclusions on this one but Mississippi was the only state to not have a sanctioned round in 2007. But then again neither did anywhere in the continents of Africa, Antarctica or South America.

Here are some course stat nuggets from the 2007 sanctioned events. We have SSA values for 2468 course layouts. The average SSA, adjusted to the 18-hole equivalent where needed, was 51.2 with 75% of all course layouts between 46 and 56 SSA. This is less than 2 shots average increase from the 49.5 value recorded in 1999.

The highest SSAs recorded were at the Gateway Open with 71.6 from the Red tees and 72.1 from the Blues. I think this was the Centralia course in Illinois.

A total of 773 different courses (no count of permanent vs temps) had sanctioned rounds. La Mirada had the most layouts rated with 17 on file. Draw your own conclusions on this one but Mississippi was the only state to not have a sanctioned round in 2007. But then again neither did anywhere in the continents of Africa, Antarctica or South America.



Centralia, IL is sweet! I played there a few weeks ago. Short(Red)/Long(Blue) Tees. Short(A)/Long (B) baskets.. Blue to B plays nearly 10,000 feet. This is what disc golf is all about.

Chuck, can you post up some of the other highest SSAs if you have them handy? Maybe a top 100 or whatever is convenient. I'm sure many of us are curious where the most challenging courses are...

I think an even more interesting stat that would help determine which courses are truly "most challenging" would be some way to track the courses that force the broadest range of deviation above/below players average rankings.

I can conceive of a long, open course that has an SSA of 70 where 1000-rated players would all shoot within a few strokes of one another -- this is obviously not a difficult course, just a long course. I can imagine another course that has an SSA of 70 that has lots of elevation, tight trees, OB, dense underbrush, etc... where 1000-rated pros might shoot a dozen strokes up or down of the SSA depending on how "on" they were because the penalty for imperfect throws is so much greater.

Is there any standard rating that tries to measure not just the SSA but the relative difficulty of each course? Could this somehow be calculated looking at score distribution compared to ratings as an indicator of difficulty?

I also like the thought of that idea if anybody were to take up such a project. It would certainly be interesting to know.

If par is set for gold level, then comparing the SSA to that would be a way to assess the relative difficulty of courses with similar SSAs.

post up some of the other highest SSAs if you have them handy?



Highest SSA Courses - 2007 Rank (http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=659610&an=0&page=0#Post6 59610)
History - Pro Worlds SSA from 1998-2007 (http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=630179&an=0&page=2#Post6 30179)

Here are the highest 103 SSAs recorded at each course location during a 2007 sanctioned event. Disregard any 2008 you see in an event. It was really 2007. If more than 18 holes were played, the SSA was adjusted to 18 holes for this table.
<table> <tr> <td>Rank</td><td>Adj SSA</td><td>Name </td></tr> <tr> <td>1</td><td>72.1</td><td>Foundation DGC Blue tees to B pins (2007 Gateway Open) </td></tr> <tr> <td>2</td><td>70.8</td><td>Idlewild Idlewild Longs R4 (2007 Disc n Dat Bluegrass Open) </td></tr> <tr> <td>3</td><td>70.3</td><td>Maple Hill Elements Airplanes (2008 Unity Summit at Maple Hill) </td></tr> <tr> <td>4</td><td>70.2</td><td>Willowbrook Golf Course 2007 Big D 18 (2007 Byron Big D Singles) </td></tr> <tr> <td>4</td><td>70.2</td><td>Nasu Highlands Golf Club Pro R2 h1-h18 (2007 National Championships - Japan) </td></tr> <tr> <td>6</td><td>69.9</td><td>Renaissance Park Gold R2 (2007 Discourse Open) </td></tr> <tr> <td>7</td><td>69.6</td><td>Winthrop Univ. Rec. Area 2007 USDGC R1 (2007 USDGC) </td></tr> <tr> <td>8</td><td>68.4</td><td>Meridian Sun Normal R1 (2008 KickOutTheYams) </td></tr> <tr> <td>9</td><td>68.3</td><td>Vista Del Camino Park Rd3 - MPG / MPM (2007 Memorial - Pros) </td></tr> <tr> <td>10</td><td>67.5</td><td>Tyler State Park a (2007 Eric C. Yetter) </td></tr> <tr> <td>11</td><td>67.3</td><td>Patterson Lake DGC Pro Layout - Hard Pins (2007 Badlands Open) </td></tr> <tr> <td>12</td><td>67.2</td><td>WR Jackson Memorial Standard (2007 Hall_of_Fame_Classic - Pros) </td></tr> <tr> <td>13</td><td>66.9</td><td>Moraine State Park (Lakeview) Gold Tees/Tournament Pins (2007 Pittsburgh Flying Disc Open) </td></tr> <tr> <td>14</td><td>66.5</td><td>Campgaw Reservation Mighty Gaw Blues (2007 The Mighty Gaw) </td></tr> <tr> <td>15</td><td>66.3</td><td>Hornets Nest Park Web - New 8 & 9, short basket on 6 R2 (2007 Points Bonanza II) </td></tr> <tr> <td>15</td><td>66.3</td><td>Elk Creek DGC Blue - Modified (2007 Elk Creek Classic) </td></tr> <tr> <td>17</td><td>66.1</td><td>The Crucible Long (2007 Flying Eye Open) </td></tr> <tr> <td>18</td><td>65.7</td><td>The Red Hawk Blue Tees R1 (2008 The Players Cup) </td></tr> <tr> <td>19</td><td>65.5</td><td>Blue Valley R3 (2007 Kansas City Wide Open - Pros) </td></tr> <tr> <td>20</td><td>65.4</td><td>Codorus State Park Codorus Red - Pro Tees-20 (2007 Codorus Spring Pro Am) </td></tr> <tr> <td>21</td><td>65.3</td><td>Ponderosa Pines (temp) Pro Tees (2007 New Mexico State Championships) </td></tr> <tr> <td>21</td><td>65.3</td><td>Highbridge Gold Rnds 2-3 (2007 Pro Worlds) </td></tr> <tr> <td>23</td><td>64.8</td><td>Brandywine Creek State Park Short R2 (2007 Representative) </td></tr> <tr> <td>24</td><td>64.7</td><td>Sugarbush - Peak Course Peak Course - Blue Tees R4 (2007 Sugarbush Open - Pro) </td></tr> <tr> <td>25</td><td>64.5</td><td>Russian Jack Golf & Disc Golf Normal Tees (2008 Course Challenge Finale) </td></tr> <tr> <td>26</td><td>64.2</td><td>The Woodshed 1A,3L,6M,8L,10LR (2008 West Virginia Open - Am) </td></tr> <tr> <td>27</td><td>64.0</td><td>Woodshed 1R,3L,6R,8R,10LR (2007 West Virginia Open) </td></tr> <tr> <td>28</td><td>63.8</td><td>Loriella Park long to championship 07 R2 (2007 Loriella Challenge - Pros) </td></tr> <tr> <td>29</td><td>63.6</td><td>Deer Lakes Blue Tee Tournament Layout (2007 The Hunt at Deer Lakes) </td></tr> <tr> <td>30</td><td>63.4</td><td>Forked Run State Park Blue Tees, E pins (2007 Ohio River Bear Open) </td></tr> <tr> <td>31</td><td>63.3</td><td>Borderland State Park Blue to Blue (2007 Borderland Spring Fling) </td></tr> <tr> <td>32</td><td>63.2</td><td>La Mirada Regional Park Championship Layout R3 (2007 United States Masters Championships) </td></tr> <tr> <td>32</td><td>63.2</td><td>Graceland University Mixed Layout R2 (2007 Graceland Open) </td></tr> <tr> <td>34</td><td>62.9</td><td>Telemark Resort Championship R2 (2007 DGTV FO 2007) </td></tr> <tr> <td>35</td><td>62.8</td><td>Leviathan Leviathan Pro (2007 Quinvitational) </td></tr> <tr> <td>36</td><td>62.6</td><td>Brandywine Battlefield Silver Layout R3 (2007 Battlejammer) </td></tr> <tr> <td>36</td><td>62.6</td><td>Warwick Town Park Blue-Blue R2 (2007 Skylands Classic) </td></tr> <tr> <td>38</td><td>62.2</td><td>Pymatuning State Park Pymatuning GOLD (2007 NWPAO) </td></tr> <tr> <td>39</td><td>62.1</td><td>Jamestown Reservoir DGC Round 3 - Pro/Adv (2007 North Dakota State Championships) </td></tr> <tr> <td>40</td><td>61.9</td><td>Valbyparken - Disc Golf Park White tee, 18 holes R1 (2007 Copenhagen Open Denmark) </td></tr> <tr> <td>40</td><td>61.9</td><td>Waller Park Safari (2008 Santa Maria Fall Open) </td></tr> <tr> <td>42</td><td>61.8</td><td>West Lake Park Tournament (2007 River Cities Rumble) </td></tr> <tr> <td>43</td><td>61.7</td><td>Rockford Park Tower of Evil Long R1 (2007 Tockwogh Memorial) </td></tr> <tr> <td>43</td><td>61.7</td><td>Castle Hayne Park Championship Layout R3 (2007 Azalea Tournament) </td></tr> <tr> <td>45</td><td>61.6</td><td>Hippodrome Blue Course (2007 Hippodrome Gold) </td></tr> <tr> <td>45</td><td>61.6</td><td>IUP College Lodge Blue Tees/B Pins (2007 PA State Championships) </td></tr> <tr> <td>45</td><td>61.6</td><td>Shodoshima Olivean Pro 24h R2 (2008 Nihon Open - Japan) </td></tr> <tr> <td>48</td><td>61.5</td><td>J&B Rolling Hills Standard Layout R2 (2007 Graceland Open) </td></tr> <tr> <td>48</td><td>61.5</td><td>Sunset Park Super Championship - High wind Rnd 3 (2007 Gentlemens Club Challenge) </td></tr> <tr> <td>48</td><td>61.5</td><td>Pickard Park Long tee to long pin (2007 Pickard Open) </td></tr> <tr> <td>48</td><td>61.5</td><td>Codorus State Park Blue Codorus Blue - Pro Tees-20 (2007 Codorus Spring Pro Am) </td></tr> <tr> <td>48</td><td>61.5</td><td>Knob Hill Park Blue Tees/Tournament Pins (2007 Pittsburgh Flying Disc Open) </td></tr> <tr> <td>53</td><td>60.9</td><td>Ohio Northern University long tees (2007 Freedom Flight) </td></tr> <tr> <td>53</td><td>60.9</td><td>Shoaff Park 18 + 6 tournament alternates R2 (2007 Three Rivers Open) </td></tr> <tr> <td>55</td><td>60.8</td><td>Timber Ridge South blue tees (2007 Timber Ridge Open) </td></tr> <tr> <td>56</td><td>60.7</td><td>Ninigret Park Blue Tees / Open (2007 Rhode Island Frostbite Classic) </td></tr> <tr> <td>56</td><td>60.7</td><td>Fanmore DG Course R3 (2007 BDGA 4 - Scottish Open) </td></tr> <tr> <td>58</td><td>60.6</td><td>Jones Park - East Dynamic Discs Safari R1 (2007 Dynamic Discs Safari) </td></tr> <tr> <td>59</td><td>60.4</td><td>South Temple Community Park Champion (2007 LSS - Temple) </td></tr> <tr> <td>59</td><td>60.4</td><td>Whittlesea Golf Course 27-Hole Layout (Back/Front/Back) (2007 Oceania Classic - Australia) </td></tr> <tr> <td>61</td><td>60.1</td><td>Sioux Passage Park BBCBCBACBCAACACCCC R2 (2007 St. Louis Open) </td></tr> <tr> <td>62</td><td>60.0</td><td>Peninsula Park DGC Blue to Long (2007 Iowa State Championships) </td></tr> <tr> <td>63</td><td>59.8</td><td>Creve Coeur Lake Park CC - Blue (2007 US Mid-Nationals) </td></tr> <tr> <td>63</td><td>59.8</td><td>Treasure Cove TCC Gold (2007 Treasure Cove Classic) </td></tr> <tr> <td>63</td><td>59.8</td><td>Lions Club Park Champion (2007 LSS - Temple) </td></tr> <tr> <td>66</td><td>59.6</td><td>Hawk Hollow regular layout R2 (2007 Hawk Hollow Open) </td></tr> <tr> <td>66</td><td>59.6</td><td>Sierra Jungle Long (2008 Sierra Jungle Challenge) </td></tr> <tr> <td>68</td><td>59.4</td><td>Oak Grove (Hahamongna Park) Championship course R2 (2007 Wintertime Open - Pros) </td></tr> <tr> <td>69</td><td>59.3</td><td>Horseshoe Canyon Ranch Blue R1 (2008 Horseshoe Canyon Retreat) </td></tr> <tr> <td>69</td><td>59.3</td><td>Toboggan Standard R1 (2007 DGLO Pros) </td></tr> <tr> <td>69</td><td>59.3</td><td>Tom Bass Regional Park, Course 1 07 Tournament Layout (2007 Texas States) </td></tr> <tr> <td>69</td><td>59.3</td><td>Fountain Hills Park Rd2 - MPO (2007 Memorial - Pros) </td></tr> <tr> <td>73</td><td>59.2</td><td>Eastern Avenue Park Long Tees (2007 River Cities Rumble) </td></tr> <tr> <td>73</td><td>59.2</td><td>Toronto Island 2007 Canadian Open Par 63 R2 (2007 Canadian Open) </td></tr> <tr> <td>73</td><td>59.2</td><td>Epil� Disc Golf Course 2007 European Open R4 (2007 European Open) </td></tr> <tr> <td>73</td><td>59.2</td><td>Ronchinne DG Park (temp) Tournament layout (2007 European Championships) </td></tr> <tr> <td>77</td><td>59.1</td><td>Rocreek (temp) Sneekys Revenge (2007 Sneeky Pete Pro-Adv) </td></tr> <tr> <td>77</td><td>59.1</td><td>Twin Oaks Golf Club Championship R2 (2007 Twin Oaks Open) </td></tr> <tr> <td>77</td><td>59.1</td><td>Milo McIver State Park East R2 (2007 Beaver State Fling - Pros) </td></tr> <tr> <td>77</td><td>59.1</td><td>Triplett Disc Golf Course Blue Course (2007 Savannah Open) </td></tr> <tr> <td>81</td><td>59.0</td><td>Steady Ed Headrick Memorial Headrick 18 and Jackson front 9 (2008 IDGC Dec Monthly) </td></tr> <tr> <td>81</td><td>59.0</td><td>Sportsplex sflsllsfssfsfsllsfr (2007 Lions Club Charity Classic) </td></tr> <tr> <td>81</td><td>59.0</td><td>Tammisaari/Eken�s Rounds 1-3 R1 (2007 Ekenas Energy Open - Finland) </td></tr> <tr> <td>81</td><td>59.0</td><td>Leijpark tegendeklok 3 x 12 holes R1 (2008 Lipton Tour 2 - Netherlands) </td></tr> <tr> <td>85</td><td>58.9</td><td>Seatac Disc Golf Course Normal layout R3 (2007 Cool Shoez Invitational) </td></tr> <tr> <td>86</td><td>58.8</td><td>Orange Crush Special Blend E > back 9 of B (2007 Pleasant Valley Disc Golf Classic) </td></tr> <tr> <td>86</td><td>58.8</td><td>Seneca Creek State Park Holes 1-27 White Tees long pins (2007 Seneca Creek Soiree) </td></tr> <tr> <td>86</td><td>58.8</td><td>Kensington Metro Park The Toboggan (2007 Devils Delight) </td></tr> <tr> <td>86</td><td>58.8</td><td>Milo McIver West (temp) West R3 (2007 Beaver State Fling - Ams) </td></tr> <tr> <td>90</td><td>58.7</td><td>Upper temp R2 (2007 Summertime Open) </td></tr> <tr> <td>91</td><td>58.6</td><td>Moody Blue Tees (long) (2007 Red Rock Show) </td></tr> <tr> <td>92</td><td>58.3</td><td>J�rva Discgolf Park East-East 1-9x2 R2 (2007 Stockholm Open Sweden) </td></tr> <tr> <td>92</td><td>58.3</td><td>Forest Hills Championship R3 (2008 Bull City Showdown) </td></tr> <tr> <td>94</td><td>58.2</td><td>Crawford Park R2 (2007 North Texas Series Event #8) </td></tr> <tr> <td>95</td><td>57.8</td><td>Giant's Ridge tournament blue pro adv (2007 Great Divide) </td></tr> <tr> <td>95</td><td>57.8</td><td>Middle Park Tournament (2007 River Cities Rumble) </td></tr> <tr> <td>95</td><td>57.8</td><td>Rankin Lake DGC R1 (2008 G-Town Throwdown) </td></tr> <tr> <td>95</td><td>57.8</td><td>Angeredsbanan hole 1-18 R1 (2007 Goteborg Open - Sweden) </td></tr> <tr> <td>95</td><td>57.8</td><td>Granite Ridge Rnd 1-2 (2007 Pro Worlds) </td></tr> <tr> <td>100</td><td>57.7</td><td>Kendall Indian Hammocks East C-long R2 (2007 Indian Hammocks Challenge) </td></tr> <tr> <td>100</td><td>57.7</td><td>Browns Farm long tees (2007 Beachwood Classic) </td></tr> <tr> <td>100</td><td>57.7</td><td>Rudan OB Island on littlesister / TLA IV R2 (2007 Twin Lakes IV - Sweden) </td></tr> <tr> <td>100</td><td>57.7</td><td>Nokia Frisbee Golf Park Gold R2 (2007 Nokia Open - Finland) </td></tr> </table>

If par is set for gold level, then comparing the SSA to that would be a way to assess the relative difficulty of courses with similar SSAs.



correct

difficulty is the difference in par and SSA.

I can make 18 wide open 575 foot holes and par would be 72, but that course would not be difficult.

Cranbury Park, Norwalk CT will be up there after this years pdga event.

Renny Gold should jump up a little with the changes made for the Clash.

although... if you have a field of all pros playing a course in theory the SSA would/should be lower correct? (Ams aren't playing gold layout... but they are playing the web and pro's arent so maybe web will jump up there a bit)

Field has no effect due to built-in adjustments that account for that, certainly not like wind might have had on the SSA for some courses listed above.

thanks and good point about the wind... would be interesting to see the courses that play that tough with decent weather

I could probably go thru and figure out if some of these numbers are jacked up from high wind that round. The problem is that, in some cases, it's hard to tell whether I'm comparing data from the exact same layout or different ones just based on the words in the name.

The SSA on the Willow Brook Big D permanent course will probably be a stroke lower than on the 2007 temp course. We shortened the par 3s to make for more birdies on those holes. It was cool to be #4 on the list.

Stack,
I had an interesting anecdotal experience last year. I played the West Virginia Open twice -- both the Am tournament and the pro event a few months later.

In both tournaments I shot the same three-round total score (203) and my average round rating was the same (less than 1 point different) in comparing the 59-player Am event to the 123-player Pro event.

At the Am event, a hot-round was anything in the 60s. In the Pro event, the best rounds dipped as low as a 1048-rated 56 from Mike Moser. The fact that scores and round-ratings were consistent between events helped prove to me that round ratings are calculated consistently, regardless of the skill of the field playing the course.

Gives me some faith in the system. :-)

Thanks. And there are many more examples than that. However, some people like to find the exceptions using unofficial results that may not actually be exceptions once the official numbers are done.

The fact is that normal variance will sometimes have lower rated pools get a slightly better SSA and sometimes higher rated pools by a little bit. At one time, playing in a higher rated pool usually produced better ratings. However, once we got the adjustment factor figured out, it's now close to 50/50.

Cranbury Park, Norwalk CT will be up there after this years pdga event.



Doubtful, unless a ton of changes to the course have been made.

Remember that the SSAs listed are adjusted to standardize for 18 holes. The 100th course and minimum to make the list is 57.7. In order for a course to exceed SSA 57.7 it would need at least six pro par four holes, and perhaps one or two pro par five holes with a total course par of at least 60 or more for blue level golfers.

At one time, playing in a higher rated pool usually produced better ratings. However, once we got the adjustment factor figured out, it's now close to 50/50.


I'm not being critical of our system because I cannot offer an improvement, but on many courses, it still pays off mightily (in terms of ratings) to be in a higher rated pool.

If the tournament is on a course with very little trouble, the spread between good players and bad players will be less than on a course with lots of punishing trouble. Simply put, on a difficult course, the more frequent bad shots by a lower rated player will result in doubles, triples, snowmen; on an easy course, those bad shots rarely result in doubles.

Course difficulty is SSA independent, it is just as possible on an 52 SSA or a 68 SSA. Difficulty cannot be captured by SSA - par, mainly because too many people's idea of par is flawed. The only real measure would be as described above: some measure that describes average player variation from their rating.

James, I provide the facts, you provide the conjecture. The one year I played the USDGC, I came in second last only because Rothstein also played. We had all kinds of OBs more than others who finished ahead of us. However, once the dust settled neither of us averaged more than 10 points below our ratings for the event.

The SSA produces those doubles and triples in lower rated players but not in an increasing proportion to the overall increase in course SSA. If these effects were really there, we would have seen them and adjusted for them by now. But they aren't there statistically overall. But everyone can find examples to prove their point on an individual round basis because there are lots of variances in both directions.

I'd be real surprised if, when plotting each player's variance from rating, that there are not characteristic bell curves for more difficult courses. If a controlled pool existed, consisting of all equally rated players, the descriptor could be simplified to "spread."

Maybe that's what I'm looking for -- a graph of each course showing player distribution from their rating. We could use the graphs for different courses to help gauge "difficulty." An easy course would have a flatter graph, a harder course would have a much steeper graph. This should be true regardless of whether the SSA is 40 or 70.

I guess one of my reasons for thinking about this is that I know from experience that my odds of doing well increase dramatically at more difficult courses. I am a mediocre player on short, simple courses. It doesn't matter the distance -- my putting isn't great, my approach game isn't great, my driving game isn't great -- but my mental game is very good and my rescue shots are the best part of my game.

On a very difficult course, I am likely to play smart and to execute well a lot of challenging/unusal throws to get out of trouble and keep one mistake from costing me 2-3 strokes. In windy play, I am likely to play smart and use the wind well to keep the abuse to a minimum. However, if you give me a straightforward course on a beautiful day, I am in a world of trouble.

I'm a 950 rated golfer because I play 980-rated golf on hard courses and 920-rated golf on easy courses.Knowing course difficulty would help me to know which courses I am likely to be most competitive on. I'll still play the straightforward courses -- I need to work on that part of my game -- but I'll have a better idea going in what my chances are.

We don't have enough data on courses and even holes to be able to cross reference a player's performance in relation to SSA, type of terrain, length, elevation, weather, etc. That's all cool stuff I'd love to do for members. But much coding of courses needs to be done to catch up with a much more complete set of ratings data on players. In the future, I see being able to indicate whether a particular player is better in the wind, elevation, woods, warm or cold weather, rain, etc. almost like horse racing stats. Can parimutuel betting on players be far behind?

The average member only has 15 rated rounds of data each year. That's barely enough for reasonable accuracy on ratings overall let alone breaking out only four of those rated rounds on a wooded or high SSA course and drawing valid conclusions. We have something up our sleeve for next year that might produce more rated rounds per year but getting the physical stats for lots of courses entered into the database will be the bigger challenge.