MTL21676
Mar 04 2008, 01:43 PM
THERE IS NOT POINT TO THEM B/C IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN IN PDGA PLAY

tbender
Mar 04 2008, 02:02 PM
Discussing S&D

OR

Discussing MTL themed movie titles


:)

cgkdisc
Mar 04 2008, 02:03 PM
Maybe not in my lifetime but possibly yours. Considering that Dunipace is one of those who proposed it, if they made it a requirement at a USDGC to test it out, would you or many others not play? Pros have already shown they'll try anything if the money's there such as yellow ropes, pins 5 ft from water, island greens and clown's mouth mandos. Sort of along the lines of, "Thank you sir, may I have another."

MTL21676
Mar 04 2008, 03:27 PM
Maybe not in my lifetime but possibly yours. Considering that Dunipace is one of those who proposed it, if they made it a requirement at a USDGC to test it out, would you or many others not play? Pros have already shown they'll try anything if the money's there such as yellow ropes, pins 5 ft from water, island greens and clown's mouth mandos. Sort of along the lines of, "Thank you sir, may I have another."



I have never played USDGC and to be honest, its just not something I'm interested in.

I'm sure I will play it eventually but only b/c it is only 3 hours from the house.

I would much rather compete at the worlds every year than USDGC.

I understand I am in a huge minority who feel this way, however.

But USDGC would be the WORST place to try this. The best place would be on a course with no par 4's or 5's.

MTL21676
Mar 04 2008, 03:27 PM
Discussing S&D

OR

Discussing MTL themed movie titles


:)



I didn't start either of those threads :D

robertsummers
Mar 12 2008, 10:56 PM
Yeah stupid rules never happen like twice the penalty for a lost disc when it should be the same penalty as an OB shot.

Martin_Norris
Mar 19 2008, 04:55 PM
Yeah stupid rules never happen like twice the penalty for a lost disc when it should be the same penalty as an OB shot.


Rule for lost disc is taken from ball golf where there is an other stupid rule that states that a lateral OB can also result in stroke and distance penalty.

Martin_Norris
Mar 19 2008, 04:57 PM
Maybe not in my lifetime but possibly yours. Considering that Dunipace is one of those who proposed it, if they made it a requirement at a USDGC to test it out, would you or many others not play? Pros have already shown they'll try anything if the money's there such as yellow ropes, pins 5 ft from water, island greens and clown's mouth mandos. Sort of along the lines of, "Thank you sir, may I have another."



I have never played USDGC and to be honest, its just not something I'm interested in.

I'm sure I will play it eventually but only b/c it is only 3 hours from the house.

I would much rather compete at the worlds every year than USDGC.

I understand I am in a huge minority who feel this way, however.

But USDGC would be the WORST place to try this. The best place would be on a course with no par 4's or 5's.


equal rules to equalize the field
Stand and deliver eliminates the question of release point relative to the marker or disc lie from the previous spot.
Stand and deliver will not result in injury to the player, injury will be self inflected from improper form, over aggressive power, or some other factor solely based with in the player making the shot.
Stand and deliver will not advantage or disadvantage any one player or class of players if it were made a universal rule. (see level playing field)
If Stand and deliver shortens your shots then it will also shorten every ones shots (no advantage gain / loss there)
Stand and deliver will not effect ratings since those are based on the performance of the competing field and if the field is playing level conditions and rules then all things are equal, (skill and other individual factors not withstanding)
The playing field is not always so level at the current time since players who cannot jump at the end of putts and who cannot navigate an X step in the fairway are forced to compete with players who can.
Just as NASCAR has attempted to make all cars equal to showcase driver skill, a uniform rule basis for DG that will allow the players to show case skills and not muscular development would serve to encourage new players to enter and compete in our sport.
The only location on most disc golf courses designed for good footing needed for running shots is the tee area and while we all happily risk life and limb doing run up shots in the other parts of the course for the perceived added distance, we do not always gain that much of an edge with the resulting throws.
For the ball golfers: there seems to be no rule against taking a run-up for a tee or fairway shot in BG but the control issues tend to make that impractical at best and the resultant drives while wildly long are also not controllable.

Honestly I have not seen any valid arguments for not adopting the stand and deliver rule. It might even shorten the amount of land use required for installing a course and allow us to place more courses on land that is not currently LONG enough for the run up bombers to play.
Disc Golf is a game of skill and while it does require a measure of athletic ability it should be based around skill(s) and not pure physical power. While a 650+ foot drive is an awesome feet to behold a 125 foot approach through and between obstacles is just as exciting and requires a great deal more skill and muscle control (and is something that even new players and old folks can master with practice)

SUB NOTE:
While I have never called a foot fault on fairway drives and long approches I have also never seen any player touch the rear edge of the marker at release after a run up so maybe we just do away with marking the lie since no one with a run up ever releases on spot anyway?

Lyle O Ross
Mar 19 2008, 05:44 PM
There is a simple solution, one that the Stand and Deliver nay sayers are never willing to pursue. It's a simple challenge. In your next tournament, challenge the guys on your card to call you every time you foot fault on open field throws. I'll bet it will change your perspective on this issue.

Now, you and I know that's never going to happen, but until those against this concept agree to do that, the rule as it exists is inadequate and that cannot be denied.

BTW Sidearm, this isn't directed at you, rather to those who support the S & D is stupid position.

Giles
Mar 19 2008, 05:55 PM
side arm, you don't have to be right up against the mini... I belive you have something like 9 or 10 inches behind the marker... dont' know exactly because nobody will ever call it in the fairway anyway.

Lyle O Ross
Mar 19 2008, 06:05 PM
side arm, you don't have to be right up against the mini... I belive you have something like 9 or 10 inches behind the marker... dont' know exactly because nobody will ever call it in the fairway anyway.



It's either 11 inches, 30 cm, or whatever you can get away with, I don't quite recall. :D

vwkeepontruckin
Mar 22 2008, 01:09 PM
So call them when they do it, I do and I know several other touring pros who do so as well. Rules should make things fair, not resrict play.

Someone made the comment about shortening everyone's shots. Not the case, so try again.

Can I throw 400' accurate with a runup. Yes.
Can I w/o? Not as likely.

Should I really loose money to someone who happens to be 100 lbs heavier than me and can gorrilla a standstill 50' farther? Is it not technique and finnese that allow a 145 lb person like myself to throw as far as I do?

Do we really want to see disc golf turn into the NBA where no amount of shooting skill will get a 5' guy into a starting lineup? (Please do not point out 5' NBA players, thats just a stupidly beurocratic as the entire discussion as a whole)

tkieffer
Mar 22 2008, 11:33 PM
Should I really loose money to someone who happens to be 100 lbs heavier than me and can gorrilla a standstill 50' farther? Is it not technique and finnese that allow a 145 lb person like myself to throw as far as I do?




I don't think weight or size has anything to do with this. It still is a matter of form and arm speed regardless of a run-up or not. Using stand and deliver, people who throw longer than most will still do so as long as they learn how to shift their weight without having to step. Technique will still prevail.

sandalbagger
Mar 22 2008, 11:57 PM
But it would be a stupid technique!! Why would any one ever want to make disc golf stand and deliver. Hell I throw sidearm almost 350 feet standing still, and about 370 with a runup. I am a great player standing still. Perhaps that is why I play so well in the winter, but the idea of making it a rule to stand and throw is ludicrous!! Stupidest idea I have heard in 15 years of playing disc golf.

vwkeepontruckin
Mar 24 2008, 12:28 AM
Should I really loose money to someone who happens to be 100 lbs heavier than me and can gorrilla a standstill 50' farther? Is it not technique and finnese that allow a 145 lb person like myself to throw as far as I do?




I don't think weight or size has anything to do with this. It still is a matter of form and arm speed regardless of a run-up or not. Using stand and deliver, people who throw longer than most will still do so as long as they learn how to shift their weight without having to step. Technique will still prevail.



[censored]...S&D would make distance more power related. I ask you this, Is it not technique and practice that allow me to efficiently increase my forward momentum and still keep the rotation on axis? And yes, I can stay behind my lie...and would encourage anyone/everyone to call me on it otherwise.

I remain confident the issue is really that people don't pay attention, not ness. ignore the call.

tkieffer
Mar 24 2008, 11:46 AM
Is it not technique and practice that allow me to efficiently increase my forward momentum and still keep the rotation on axis?



Yes, for both using a run-up and stand and deliver. Technique and practice is what will give you greater distance, not body weight or 'gorilla strength'.

Not advocating either position here, just stating that one vs. the other is not going to benefit a particular body type or bench press strength vs. rotation and arm speed. I would have to agree that stand and deliver may offer an advantage to those who throw forehand as the requirements for body weight shift as part of the distance of the throw may be less.

vwkeepontruckin
Mar 24 2008, 05:12 PM
Is it not technique and practice that allow me to efficiently increase my forward momentum and still keep the rotation on axis?



Yes, for both using a run-up and stand and deliver. Technique and practice is what will give you greater distance, not body weight or 'gorilla strength'.

Not advocating either position here, just stating that one vs. the other is not going to benefit a particular body type or bench press strength vs. rotation and arm speed. I would have to agree that stand and deliver may offer an advantage to those who throw forehand as the requirements for body weight shift as part of the distance of the throw may be less.



Regardless, anything that will give one person advantage over another is [censored]. And how many really think this is going to save the game and make it more fun to watch. More [censored].
And again, we are treating symptoms and not problems.

cgkdisc
Mar 24 2008, 05:16 PM
Regardless, anything that will give one person advantage over another is [censored].


If all shots had to be played from the knee it would reduce the unfair advantage taller people have over shorter people. That is, as long as we could use towels for the stance...

Karl
Mar 25 2008, 04:23 PM
Come on Chris, if you're going to defend the no-S&D position, do a better job ;)

Your..."Regardless, anything that will give one person advantage over another is [censored]."...is impractical. EVERYTHING (and every rule) is going to give SOME person advantage over another (to at least some extent). You name any rule you like, and I bet someone could come up with a situation where someone benefits (or is hurt by it...and thus, de facto, it favors some other person). Live with it (the inequities)!

Your..."And how many really think this is going to save the game and make it more fun to watch. More [censored]." Who said anything about "saving the game"? Our game isn't in need of "saving"; only in need of (perhaps) making things a bit better by tweaking the rules (which are still rather young and all the bugs haven't been shaken out yet). And who is to say that watching someone take 5 cross-steps, missing their mark, and then wacking the nearest tree 15% of the time is "more fun to watch" than standing still (behind all shots other than tee shots), and wacking the nearest tree 2% of the time? [numbers aren't substantiated - they're there just for comparison purposes]

And your..."And again, we are treating symptoms and not problems."...is not valid. They (the S&D pundits) ARE taking a practical approach toward solving the problem - which is too many foot faults! In your analogy (of symptoms and problems...which is not a great one), the "symptom" is that (virtually) no one is willing to call them (the "problem"). Since this is the case, by "eliminating" the foot fault (in a funny-sort-of-way) the "symptom" AND the "problem" go away!

I would bet serious money that if EVERYONE (and I mean EVERYONE) were to play a tournament while calling EVERY footfault, the first 9 holes would take 3 hours because every player would have to re-throw (can't use a penalty shot as a "real" shot) a WHOLE lot of times. Tempers would flair. How dare "You call one on me, I'll get you back..." would be muttered under MANY a breath! After about 9 holes, just about everyone would be sick of having penalty shots assessed against them, so they'd just S&D anyway!

Karl

Ps: I fully agree that "if we have rules, they should be enforced", but I also believe that "we should have rules that are, in fact, enforcable"! It's very hard - if not impossible - to assess if I've ff'd or not if I'm x-stepping in ankle-high grass. If you get too close (to get a sufficient look), I'll be grumpy that you're not giving me sufficient room to play, etc.
So "get rid of the entire problem" (or almost so)...but having to stand. Once I "take my place" behind my mark, I'll have to throw, etc.

Food for thought, anyway.

mikeP
Mar 25 2008, 05:36 PM
Stand and deliver eliminates the question of release point relative to the marker or disc lie from the previous spot.
Stand and deliver will not result in injury to the player, injury will be self inflected from improper form, over aggressive power, or some other factor solely based with in the player making the shot.
<font color="blue">This is no different than throwing with a run up. I really don't understand this argument. </font>

Giles
Mar 25 2008, 06:01 PM
Yes! The wonderful feeling of a great drive on a par 5. Ah, the wind in my hair and the grass under my feet as I bound toward my mini on a lush fairway. With the grace of a cat and the force of a tornado I throw my next shot up a small rise and down a blind tunnel. Split between watching it disappear and completing my follow-through I walk out my momentum. As I slow,I hear the crash of chains. Suddenly my heart and pace quicken as I charge up the rise to see the fait of my disc...

Or you could just stand and deliver.

haleigh
Mar 25 2008, 06:09 PM
Very nice Giles!

the_kid
Mar 25 2008, 06:11 PM
I wonder what the AVG rating of those for S&amp;D are compared to those against it?


Better yet who is the highest rated player for it? 970?

gotcha
Mar 25 2008, 06:20 PM
I wonder what the AVG rating of those for S&amp;D are compared to those against it?



Great question, scoot_er.

robertsummers
Mar 25 2008, 08:18 PM
I can only speak from my personal experience. I have been diagnosed with tendonitis in my right shoulder and my shoulder hurts a lot more when I stand still and throw than when I make an x-step and throw. Because it just feels more natural to continue through the motion than when I am standing still. Any other sport where there is this much force coming through the arm has a follow through whether it be baseball or football they all follow through. Everyone that says stand and deliver will not cause injury I would really like to know what you base your opinion on. It is kind of like me saying I had a car wreck and I am O.K. so therefore everyone who has a car wreck will be O.K.

Karl
Mar 25 2008, 09:40 PM
Debating Tactics Most Persons Use (Especially When They�re Starting To Lose�)

Exaggerate your opponent�s statement into an absurd absolute
Make an inappropriate analogy
Change the topic to something easier to defend
Claim victory

Example:
You: Vegetables are good for you
Opponent: That�s ridiculous. If you ate a truckload of vegetables all at once you�d die
You: No one eats a truckload all at once
Opponent: Let me give you an analogy. If you tried to swim across the ocean, and you didn�t know how to swim, and you had no arms or legs, you�d never make it. Surely you can agree with that
You: Um�that�s different
Opponent: Ha! So now you agree with me that swimming is good exercise!

The worst part is that not only will you be frustrated at you inability to make your point, you will be branded as a person who thinks swimming is bad exercise.




Boy, there sure is a boatload of this type of crap on this MB!

Karl

Karl
Mar 25 2008, 09:46 PM
Jerry,

And why is it a great question? Are you of the belief that only high-rated players have valid opinions / thoughts? Is it "he who has the highest rating wins" the argument about disc golf? For the sake of western PA disc golf...I hope not.

Karl

ChrisWoj
Mar 25 2008, 10:07 PM
Okay here's my argument for non-stand and deliver: Stand and deliver is boring, less explosive to watch, and overall will take away the fun of the game and drive players that have been playing for decades away from the sport. The stronger diehards will still stick around but I know a LOT of older guys that would become casual-only players if S&amp;D were made the rule.

So yeah, two main issues in my eyes:
1. Less exciting. Watch Steve Brinster as an example, which is more fun to watch? Brinster doing his 300 foot standstill explosion or going through a cross step and pulling a nice drive through? Clearly one can be effective with both as he is, but if our sport is going to gain any popularity through the media it needs to be fun to watch. S&amp;D is not and watching Steve Brinster is one good example of that.

2. The older players just won't like it and we'll lose a very large group of non-diehards. And you know what? It sure as hell isn't going to encourage new players to join in. "Hey that looks cooler now that they're not doing a run up!" No, the end result would be a strong loss of players with no real upside from that end.

ChrisWoj
Mar 25 2008, 10:10 PM
Jerry,

And why is it a great question? Are you of the belief that only high-rated players have valid opinions / thoughts? Is it "he who has the highest rating wins" the argument about disc golf? For the sake of western PA disc golf...I hope not.

Karl


No, but the guys who have higher ratings tend to know the basics of their game better. They can break down their motions better than most people. They can break down YOUR motion to its base elements better than most people. They understand what they're doing, basically. Are they always right on an issue such as this one? No. But they do have a strong base of expertise with which to make an argument.

robertsummers
Mar 25 2008, 11:08 PM
Another poor debating tactic is making unnecassary personal attacks and sidestepping questions by trying to act like the other person is an idiot. The analogy may not be great so lets get back to the my points.

1.) How can you say for sure that not properly following through will not lead to injury?

2.) Related to 1 but if being able to follow through properly doesn't lead to injury why do baseball pitchers wind up and follow through off the mound and QBs step into the throw and follow through. Why do they not short arm everything.

3.) How will this improve the sport?

In all honesty I really don't care a lot one way or another, change the rule and I only play tournaments on courses short enough to make a drive, short approach, and putt on most holes and avoid the tournaments on any course where the average hole is 400' plus.

Karl
Mar 25 2008, 11:08 PM
Chris,

I hear what you're saying - but there are those who partake in good, factual discussions and there are those who play the "holier-than-thou card" because they believe, if they are better than you in ONE thing (i.e. disc golf), they must be correct in ALL things! This, of course, is wrong. I'm just playing 'debate monitor' here and cautioning those who choose to state irrelevant things (about the discussion) may get called on them. Just the facts, ma'am (or, at least pertinent opinions); not superfluous, non-applicable emotions. A lot of people spew the air full of words...very few of them are well thought out. You have stated your opinion. I don't necessarily agree with it, but I hear it and respect it. I wish more people would think before they blab; them we could ALL learn (from these words) and make some informed opinions (based on facts, not emotion).

Karl

Ps: As for them being able to "breakdown a throw / what they are doing", what does this have to do with the merits of either side of the S&amp;D or non-S&amp;D issue?

Pps: And it's interesting that there are those who say that "the old-timers will go away" (because they're so used to it) and yet there are those who say that it will favor "the older, slower players who can't run-up so fast". If you've been following this (and the like) threads, you'll know that BOTH these arguments have been made for non-S&amp;D. Looks like a "wash" to me!

Ppps: As for the "good points" that S&amp;D can "bring to the table", the only ones I see (personal opinion) are that it 1) somewhat helps to 'vary' the types of shots played (i.e. akin to tee shots vs. fairway shots in bg) and, 2) helps "keep under control" / eliminates a "flaw in the system" that doesn't seem to want to go away. If you doubt that, see my post a few posts ago (about how if EVERYONE were to call ALL ff's...).

Pppps: Can you have a quadruple post-script?

Karl
Mar 25 2008, 11:26 PM
Robert,

"1.) How can you say for sure that not properly following through will not lead to injury?"
I've never said you shouldn't be able to follow through (unless inside the 10m circle), nor do I believe (I could be wrong here) that the S&amp;D pundits have stated this. What IS stated is that the order (recommended) is standing, then throwing, then doing 'whatever you want' (i.e. following through if you wish).
So I don't know where you came up with this "no following through" thing. It's the "running up, missing your mark" thing that the bugger here.

"2..."
I believe I've already answered this point in the above statement.

"3..."
In the grand scheme of things, very little. It will force (well, pretty MUCH force, unless they want a penalty) people to actually throw from their lie (which they don't NEARLY do as much as they THINK they do). It's kind of like playing the ball "down" (as they do in PGA tournaments) or "rolling the ball over" - playing from NEAR where your ball ended up, but maybe not exactly (as is prevalent for weekend ball golfers). We (the PDGA) are presently the latter; we could be the former.

Karl

jfsheffield
Mar 26 2008, 12:34 AM
S&amp;D Supporters, do you have any quantitative data to support your claims: safer &amp; too many foot faults. I am am a believer in evidence based decision making and I would be open to any arguments that are supported by data, but without data aren't those claims merely subjective? I pose this to the S&amp;D supporters, get some data on injuries and watch DG videos and see how many foot faults you can count or maybe go watch some pro's play at a local tournament and count the foot faults for a sampling and then come back and share the data. Until such time I find the assertions for S&amp;D on the basis of safety and stemming foot faults specious.

Karl
Mar 26 2008, 10:31 AM
John,

Quantitative data regarding "more / less injuries": I doubt there is any. It (the supposition that S&amp;D may lead to less injuries) is probably based on the concept of you can obtain an arm injury via both throwing from a standstill or from throwing while running up but you can't trip over something, etc., when you're not stepping. But this - the "injury part of the argument" (to me) is a very minor point. Let's not even consider it (for this argument's sake).

A different matter when talking about ff's (the crux of the argument for the implementation of S&amp;D). As to your "...watch DG videos and see how many foot faults you can count or maybe go watch some pro's play at a local tournament and count the foot faults for a sampling and then come back and share the data."...just think logically. What would gathering "1 side of the data pool" (the non-S&amp;D) accomplish if no complementary S&amp;D data can be had? People have suggested running a tournament with S&amp;D; I'd like to see that too! Think of this scenario: If one were to "place their foot behind the lie and then throw" (with no "shuffling, cheating, etc.) how could there be a ff? If one were to "run up to their mark and then throw (with no "shuffling, cheating, etc.), while concentrating on their target / sight line / etc., are you telling me that there won't be ANY ff's? Unofficially counting, I have it at S&amp;D = zero vs. Run-ups = &gt;zero.

Karl

gotcha
Mar 26 2008, 02:28 PM
Jerry,

And why is it a great question? <font color="red"> I am simply curious what the results would yield in regard to scoot_er's question. </font> Are you of the belief that only high-rated players have valid opinions / thoughts? <font color="red"> No....however, I do wish more high-rated players would share their opinions on this message board (and, for the record, I do not consider myself a high-rated player). </font> Is it "he who has the highest rating wins" the argument about disc golf? <font color="red"> No.....however, "he who has the highest rating wins" most tournaments! :D</font> For the sake of western PA disc golf...I hope not.

Karl



An idividual's player rating has nothing to do with my opinion of him/her nor does a player's rating cause me to surmise a certain level of validity toward one's opinions or interpretations shared on this message board (or in personal discussion).

The growth of this sport largely depends not upon high-rated players, but rather the recreational players who have no ratings.

Though we may now be beyond the "grass-roots" level of this game, the sport is still young and the overall success of disc golf lies predominately upon the incremental growth of the amateur/recreational player base. Educational programs like E.D.G.E. as well as the dg movers &amp; shakers who strive to capture a larger audience of enthusiasts will ultimately lead us to more courses, more tournament players and more recognition within the mainstream public.

I think Kennedy's Player Rating system is one of the best things to happen to disc golf. Finally, we have a tool to use as a benchmark to measure skill set for all players. Eventually, I would like to see the concept evolve toward the development of a course rating system as an addition to the Player Rating system we have in place today. That's a different discussion altogether.

As for the concept of Stand &amp; Deliver, I posted on another thread that if such a rule was enacted, I honestly believe we would see a mass exodus from PDGA sanctioned events. I'm not saying we would see a reduction in the number of players or tournaments, however, I do feel we would see more tournaments shy away from PDGA sanctioning as a result of the S&amp;D concept. I've been playing this wonderful sport for almost 17 years now and I am still amazed at the skills of the top players in the game. The big, booming fairway drives are always impressive to watch....and the footwork required to pull-off those big, booming drives is equally impressive. Unfortunately, S&amp;D would diminish many of those jaw-dropping shots that make the galleries "Oooh" and "Ahhh".

Have I seen foot-faults on the course? Yes...who hasn't? I've called people on the infraction and, likewise, I've been called on the infraction. And yes....I've even seen 1000-rated players called for foot-faults, both on and off the tee.....and more often than not, their subsequent shot was better than the first! One thing that is for sure.....higher player ratings equate to fewer rule infractions (foot-faults included). Experience and skill set move that needle. Period.

I believe Dunipace mentioned in an earlier post that he would like to play a tournament utilizing the S&amp;D format. I, too, would enjoy playing such an event. It would definitely be interesting to see how experienced players would adapt to such a concept or format (myself included). It is obvious experienced forehand players would have a distinct advantage over those who typically do not utilize that type of throw.

I did witness several of the top Open men utilize the S&amp;D stance at Nockamixon State Park during the 2005 Pro Worlds. It was not by choice, however, as several areas of the course were littered with natural stones which basically prevented the run-up option. One could see the frustration in many of their faces because this gold level course (1000-rated) was not the kind of layout where S&amp;D would have been the players' preferred choice. The course is absolutely beautiful and challenging for that level of player, however. I remember asking several players what they thought about the course and many had a similar agreement: if select holes had more stones removed to create more-friendly landing areas, the overall design would greatly improve from a risk/reward point of view. In other words, nail the landing zone and you're rewarded with room for a run-up. Miss the mark and land in the stones....well, stand and deliver. :)

Lyle O Ross
Mar 26 2008, 04:51 PM
S&amp;D Supporters, do you have any quantitative data to support your claims: safer &amp; too many foot faults. I am am a believer in evidence based decision making and I would be open to any arguments that are supported by data, but without data aren't those claims merely subjective? I pose this to the S&amp;D supporters, get some data on injuries and watch DG videos and see how many foot faults you can count or maybe go watch some pro's play at a local tournament and count the foot faults for a sampling and then come back and share the data. Until such time I find the assertions for S&amp;D on the basis of safety and stemming foot faults specious.



I won't comment on safety, personally, I think it's a red herring.

Data - good, a scientist, me likes. I went through a significant part of the data from 2003 to 2005, i.e. video of NTs, Worlds, and USDGC footage. I saw multiple foot faults and at one time I presented the frequency here on this MB. First, that frequency will be low relative to the actual number of foot faults, you only get limited footage. Second, you are looking at the top Pros for the most part. Third, it happens, and almost every top Pro that I saw did it.

Now, logically speaking, if it happens once, that's important. Say for example that you're in a nine hole playoff between Barry and Dave F. That one foot fault can be the difference between a tie or a win. You've already changed the outcome of a major event with several thousand dollars on the line. Not good.

The reality is that foot faults are incredibly frequent. Nope, don't have numbers for you, but I've seen dozens myself in tournament play and I don't play that often. That means you're affecting a lot of outcomes. Again, that is a problem.

Why is it a problem? Well, in some states, this sport is considered gambling. Essentially, you're making a bet on the outcome when you enter. The last thing you want is the perception that something like this is affecting the outcome. Even if that weren't the case, just the concept that the playing field isn't even is bad.

Now, your notion that we need numbers is a good one. This problem is endemic enough that I'd argue having some Marshals do some numbers is needed. Conversely, you can just accept the obvious and fix the problem.

matthewblakely
Mar 26 2008, 05:23 PM
We shouldn't change the rules, we should call the rules.

I must say it would look stupid and kinda out of place for people to stand still when they still have a long way to go. I can see it now on hole #5 at Winthrop, people standing still on their multiple upshots. It would be on video and just look ridiculous.

Another ridiculous thing is this towel stuff that I am hearing on this board. If I am playing in any event and my best shot is to kneel on the muddy ground, than I will put a towel down between me and the mud.

The player is being punished by having to kneel instead of taking the shot normally. I can see it now in an interview, Nate Doss with two big brown spots on his knees after winning the world.

These are unneccessary rules and ideas that I think take away from us as a sport.

jfsheffield
Mar 27 2008, 09:10 PM
Thanks for the info Lyle. Did you notice a difference if the person was using their mini or the disc?

krupicka
Mar 27 2008, 10:05 PM
I was watching the Renny clash DVD last night and saw a couple of foot faults on fairway run ups. The interesting thing is that one trio could do a run up and the other couldn't for virtually the same shot. The result was virtually the same.

Smokey102977
Apr 26 2008, 10:47 PM
Ummm.....This topic is borderline stupid! By not being able to run-up you take away the part of the game that makes it fun. It's like watching bowling and they don't walk to the line, they just stand there and throw the ball, or it's like baseball but you can't run to make the throw after catching the ball. It just doesn't make since.

mbohn
Apr 27 2008, 12:30 AM
I agree with Smokey....
If the PDGA ever tried to make this a rule I would quit going to tournaments. I doubt the players in the unsacntioned series I participate in every year would change to adopt such nonsense. So finding a place to play events would not be problem. If it ever happened you would create two entirely different sports the runner disc golfers and the standing disc golfers, what a waste!!!

krazyeye
Apr 27 2008, 12:40 AM
Ummm.....This topic is borderline stupid! By not being able to run-up you take away the part of the game that makes it fun. It's like watching bowling and they don't walk to the line, they just stand there and throw the ball, or it's like baseball but you can't run to make the throw after catching the ball. It just doesn't make since.



Cents win?

james_mccaine
Apr 29 2008, 03:00 PM
The whole premise for S&amp;D is so questionable. Lyle acts as like there is some hard data on the frequency of foot faults. Then he goes on to assume that each foot fault was actually important in the grand scheme of things: "the winner of the tournament hinged upon that foot fault."

I have watched very few good players EVER care about a foot fault on an open fairway. They will definitely care if the fault allowed the player to gain an easier line, but when no advantage is gained relative to a line, very few players care. I have never heard a player express the opinion that they lost to another player because of a foot fault 500 feet from the basket. I have heard the spin about what a great advantage it is to foot fault, or not to worry about foot faulting, or whatever, but these arguments have not taken traction. Given that most players are highly competitive and would take offense at their competitors getting an advantage, I am guessing that the infrequency of the call reflects a general belief that foot faulting on a open area is not much of a competitive advantage.

So, if it isn't seen as a problem by those who would be presumably aggrieved the most by it, why fix it?

please, no "it really is an advantage" arguments. I'll grant you those, even though I disagree, and still argue that whatever advantage it provides is still not seen as significant by most players, thus the total lack of foot fault calls.

ps. I don't think it is that prevalent anyway, especially at the uper ranks. Most players at that level try to hit their mark and usually succeed.

veganray
Apr 29 2008, 03:12 PM
Ummm.....This topic is borderline stupid! By not being able to run-up you take away the part of the game that makes it fun. It's like watching bowling and they don't walk to the line, they just stand there and throw the ball, or it's like baseball but you can't run to make the throw after catching the ball. It just doesn't make since.


The new PDGA slogan: "Taking the fun out of disc golf, one part of the game at at time!"

mbohn
Apr 29 2008, 04:01 PM
I have been called once for a foot fault during a tournament. The fact is I rarely miss my mark. It just so happens that I have a habit of looking down to see where my foot divot ended up ever since I was called. I hit the mark I have planned on my run up 99% of the time. It is just something I can do. The only time I have a problem is when it is too slippery to make a valid run up, in which case I decide to remain stationary. Like I said before, if a rule like this ever happens I'll quit the PDGA..... :confused:
There will be plenty enough golfers and non-sanctioned events to keep me in competitve disc golf.... :D

JCthrills
Apr 29 2008, 05:59 PM
Ummm.....This topic is borderline stupid! By not being able to run-up you take away the part of the game that makes it fun. It's like watching bowling and they don't walk to the line, they just stand there and throw the ball, or it's like baseball but you can't run to make the throw after catching the ball. It just doesn't make since.


The new PDGA slogan: "Taking the fun out of disc golf, one part of the game at at time!"



or a new acronym.... Please Dont Golf Anymore

A S&amp;D rule would eliminate long distance thumbers &amp; tomahawks, my two favorite shots. It would potentially lead to the beginning of another league entirely ala ABA or AFL

AGDGA? -- Anything Goes Disc Golf Assc.

Lyle O Ross
Apr 29 2008, 07:26 PM
Let me begin by saying that I am amazed that James even wrote this. Too fun to let go.

Let me also point out that I wonder, if the difference between having fun and not having fun at this sport is three to five steps on second throws away from the tee box, how in the world do you guys have any fun at all? :D


The whole premise for S&amp;D is so questionable. Lyle acts as like there is some hard data on the frequency of foot faults.

<font color="red"> So, what about the concept of watching video, looking at foot placement, and counting the number of foot faults, is it that you don't understand James? Please go back and read my posts where I pointed out clearly that count will be seriously low and if it still has an impact, then it's important. Perhaps what you're thinking is that so many players do it so often that it all balances out and has no impact?</font>


Then he goes on to assume that each foot fault was actually important in the grand scheme of things: "the winner of the tournament hinged upon that foot fault."

<font color="red"> What about the notion that if a player wins by one stroke, and that player has an uncalled foot fault, that the outcome has been affected isn't clear to you James?</font>

I have watched very few good players EVER care about a foot fault on an open fairway. They will definitely care if the fault allowed the player to gain an easier line, but when no advantage is gained relative to a line, very few players care. I have never heard a player express the opinion that they lost to another player because of a foot fault 500 feet from the basket. I have heard the spin about what a great advantage it is to foot fault, or not to worry about foot faulting, or whatever, but these arguments have not taken traction. Given that most players are highly competitive and would take offense at their competitors getting an advantage, I am guessing that the infrequency of the call reflects a general belief that foot faulting on a open area is not much of a competitive advantage.

<font color="red"> In this you are sort of right. I agree, few players, even those at the top, care. The number of times that people have thought that X=Y was true when it wasn't doesn't number in the 100s or even 100s of thousands, it numbers in the millions. That top players don't think this is important is irrelevant, it either is or it isn't. I guarantee that if someone spends some time thinking about this they will realize they can gain an advantage. Whether they'd take advantage of that is questionable at best, and your position on this seems wrong to me.

Let's take a clear example, Mr. Hammock. Now, I've talked with dozens of Pro players all who pointed out clearly that Mr. Hammock's tournament antics not only affects their game, but often affects their games significantly. Surprisingly enough, none of them ever call Mr. Hammock for a courtesy violation. Given that he is costing them strokes, and that he is gaining an advantage, you'd think their competitive natures would kick in. Hmmmm, CAN ANY ONE OUT THERE TELL ME WHY THEY AREN'T CALLING MR. HAMMOCK ON THIS? WHEY DON'T THEY COMPLAIN WHEN HE GETS IN THEIR FACES AND CUSSES THEM OUT IN THE MIDDLE OF A ROUND?

Your notion that this infraction would be called seems misplaced to me James. I might suggest you talk with Rhett about what has happened to him in the past when he's called this infraction and why he no longer calls it.</font>

So, if it isn't seen as a problem by those who would be presumably aggrieved the most by it, why fix it?

please, no "it really is an advantage" arguments. I'll grant you those, even though I disagree, and still argue that whatever advantage it provides is still not seen as significant by most players, thus the total lack of foot fault calls.

ps. I don't think it is that prevalent anyway, especially at the uper ranks. Most players at that level try to hit their mark and usually succeed.

<font color="red"> Your notion that there is no real advantage is quaint. Funny, I've made the same argument, back before I worked on hitting my foot placement on second throws. At that time Rhett and other posters who work hard to obey this rule told me that their experience was that it made a big difference. I posted much the same as you have here, in a scoffing manner. Then I went out and watched and worked on it, I found that hitting that foot-placement with 100% confidence does make a difference. Not close, not most of the time, not I think I did it, but I'm sure I did it is a very different game.

Steve Rico
Ken Climo
Dez Reading
Dave Feldberg
Barry Shultz

These are just a few of the people who I've seen make foot faults in NT and Worlds play while watching video frame by frame; foot-faults that weren't called. In one case, that foot-fault, if called, would have changed the final position and payout. Of course we'll never know, because no one calls it, and we have no record of what is actually happening. </font>

the_kid
Apr 29 2008, 08:06 PM
Let me begin by saying that I am amazed that James even wrote this. Too fun to let go.

Let me also point out that I wonder, if the difference between having fun and not having fun at this sport is three to five steps on second throws away from the tee box, how in the world do you guys have any fun at all? :D


The whole premise for S&amp;D is so questionable. Lyle acts as like there is some hard data on the frequency of foot faults.

<font color="red"> So, what about the concept of watching video, looking at foot placement, and counting the number of foot faults, is it that you don't understand James? Please go back and read my posts where I pointed out clearly that count will be seriously low and if it still has an impact, then it's important. Perhaps what you're thinking is that so many players do it so often that it all balances out and has no impact?</font>


Then he goes on to assume that each foot fault was actually important in the grand scheme of things: "the winner of the tournament hinged upon that foot fault."

<font color="red"> What about the notion that if a player wins by one stroke, and that player has an uncalled foot fault, that the outcome has been affected isn't clear to you James?</font>

I have watched very few good players EVER care about a foot fault on an open fairway. They will definitely care if the fault allowed the player to gain an easier line, but when no advantage is gained relative to a line, very few players care. I have never heard a player express the opinion that they lost to another player because of a foot fault 500 feet from the basket. I have heard the spin about what a great advantage it is to foot fault, or not to worry about foot faulting, or whatever, but these arguments have not taken traction. Given that most players are highly competitive and would take offense at their competitors getting an advantage, I am guessing that the infrequency of the call reflects a general belief that foot faulting on a open area is not much of a competitive advantage.

<font color="red"> In this you are sort of right. I agree, few players, even those at the top, care. The number of times that people have thought that X=Y was true when it wasn't doesn't number in the 100s or even 100s of thousands, it numbers in the millions. That top players don't think this is important is irrelevant, it either is or it isn't. I guarantee that if someone spends some time thinking about this they will realize they can gain an advantage. Whether they'd take advantage of that is questionable at best, and your position on this seems wrong to me.

Let's take a clear example, Mr. Hammock. Now, I've talked with dozens of Pro players all who pointed out clearly that Mr. Hammock's tournament antics not only affects their game, but often affects their games significantly. Surprisingly enough, none of them ever call Mr. Hammock for a courtesy violation. Given that he is costing them strokes, and that he is gaining an advantage, you'd think their competitive natures would kick in. Hmmmm, CAN ANY ONE OUT THERE TELL ME WHY THEY AREN'T CALLING MR. HAMMOCK ON THIS? WHEY DON'T THEY COMPLAIN WHEN HE GETS IN THEIR FACES AND CUSSES THEM OUT IN THE MIDDLE OF A ROUND?

Your notion that this infraction would be called seems misplaced to me James. I might suggest you talk with Rhett about what has happened to him in the past when he's called this infraction and why he no longer calls it.</font>

So, if it isn't seen as a problem by those who would be presumably aggrieved the most by it, why fix it?

please, no "it really is an advantage" arguments. I'll grant you those, even though I disagree, and still argue that whatever advantage it provides is still not seen as significant by most players, thus the total lack of foot fault calls.

ps. I don't think it is that prevalent anyway, especially at the uper ranks. Most players at that level try to hit their mark and usually succeed.

<font color="red"> Your notion that there is no real advantage is quaint. Funny, I've made the same argument, back before I worked on hitting my foot placement on second throws. At that time Rhett and other posters who work hard to obey this rule told me that their experience was that it made a big difference. I posted much the same as you have here, in a scoffing manner. Then I went out and watched and worked on it, I found that hitting that foot-placement with 100% confidence does make a difference. Not close, not most of the time, not I think I did it, but I'm sure I did it is a very different game.

Steve Rico
Ken Climo
Dez Reading
Dave Feldberg
Barry Shultz

These are just a few of the people who I've seen make foot faults in NT and Worlds play while watching video frame by frame; foot-faults that weren't called. In one case, that foot-fault, if called, would have changed the final position and payout. Of course we'll never know, because no one calls it, and we have no record of what is actually happening. </font>







Lyle you are off your rocker old man. What if Barry foot faults on a shot that parked the hole so he is called on it and on his replay of the shot he aces it?

S&amp;D would just create more problems within our sport which are much larger than foot faults. Well maybe not within the sport but at least within the PDGA.

krupicka
Apr 29 2008, 10:44 PM
S&amp;D would just create more problems within our sport which are much larger than foot faults. Well maybe not within the sport but at least within the PDGA.



The only problem that S&amp;D causes is some people to blow out their joints with their knee jerk reactions.

krupicka
Apr 30 2008, 08:33 AM
Ummm.....This topic is borderline stupid! By not being able to run-up you take away the part of the game that makes it fun. It's like watching bowling and they don't walk to the line, they just stand there and throw the ball, or it's like baseball but you can't run to make the throw after catching the ball. It just doesn't make since.



It's like making ultimate players establish a pivot foot. The travesty. Oh wait, they already can't run-up. I don't see ultimate players having any problems throwing a wide variety of shots (including overhand shots) standing still.

Lyle O Ross
Apr 30 2008, 10:55 AM
S&amp;D would just create more problems within our sport which are much larger than foot faults. Well maybe not within the sport but at least within the PDGA.



The only problem that S&amp;D causes is some people to blow out their joints with their knee jerk reactions.



Ding Ding Ding Ding. In my not so humble opinion, this wins quote of the day. :D

Lyle O Ross
Apr 30 2008, 11:18 AM
Let me begin by saying that I am amazed that James even wrote this. Too fun to let go.

Let me also point out that I wonder, if the difference between having fun and not having fun at this sport is three to five steps on second throws away from the tee box, how in the world do you guys have any fun at all? :D


The whole premise for S&amp;D is so questionable. Lyle acts as like there is some hard data on the frequency of foot faults.

<font color="red"> So, what about the concept of watching video, looking at foot placement, and counting the number of foot faults, is it that you don't understand James? Please go back and read my posts where I pointed out clearly that count will be seriously low and if it still has an impact, then it's important. Perhaps what you're thinking is that so many players do it so often that it all balances out and has no impact?</font>


Then he goes on to assume that each foot fault was actually important in the grand scheme of things: "the winner of the tournament hinged upon that foot fault."

<font color="red"> What about the notion that if a player wins by one stroke, and that player has an uncalled foot fault, that the outcome has been affected isn't clear to you James?</font>

I have watched very few good players EVER care about a foot fault on an open fairway. They will definitely care if the fault allowed the player to gain an easier line, but when no advantage is gained relative to a line, very few players care. I have never heard a player express the opinion that they lost to another player because of a foot fault 500 feet from the basket. I have heard the spin about what a great advantage it is to foot fault, or not to worry about foot faulting, or whatever, but these arguments have not taken traction. Given that most players are highly competitive and would take offense at their competitors getting an advantage, I am guessing that the infrequency of the call reflects a general belief that foot faulting on a open area is not much of a competitive advantage.

<font color="red"> In this you are sort of right. I agree, few players, even those at the top, care. The number of times that people have thought that X=Y was true when it wasn't doesn't number in the 100s or even 100s of thousands, it numbers in the millions. That top players don't think this is important is irrelevant, it either is or it isn't. I guarantee that if someone spends some time thinking about this they will realize they can gain an advantage. Whether they'd take advantage of that is questionable at best, and your position on this seems wrong to me.

Let's take a clear example, Mr. Hammock. Now, I've talked with dozens of Pro players all who pointed out clearly that Mr. Hammock's tournament antics not only affects their game, but often affects their games significantly. Surprisingly enough, none of them ever call Mr. Hammock for a courtesy violation. Given that he is costing them strokes, and that he is gaining an advantage, you'd think their competitive natures would kick in. Hmmmm, CAN ANY ONE OUT THERE TELL ME WHY THEY AREN'T CALLING MR. HAMMOCK ON THIS? WHEY DON'T THEY COMPLAIN WHEN HE GETS IN THEIR FACES AND CUSSES THEM OUT IN THE MIDDLE OF A ROUND?

Your notion that this infraction would be called seems misplaced to me James. I might suggest you talk with Rhett about what has happened to him in the past when he's called this infraction and why he no longer calls it.</font>

So, if it isn't seen as a problem by those who would be presumably aggrieved the most by it, why fix it?

please, no "it really is an advantage" arguments. I'll grant you those, even though I disagree, and still argue that whatever advantage it provides is still not seen as significant by most players, thus the total lack of foot fault calls.

ps. I don't think it is that prevalent anyway, especially at the uper ranks. Most players at that level try to hit their mark and usually succeed.

<font color="red"> Your notion that there is no real advantage is quaint. Funny, I've made the same argument, back before I worked on hitting my foot placement on second throws. At that time Rhett and other posters who work hard to obey this rule told me that their experience was that it made a big difference. I posted much the same as you have here, in a scoffing manner. Then I went out and watched and worked on it, I found that hitting that foot-placement with 100% confidence does make a difference. Not close, not most of the time, not I think I did it, but I'm sure I did it is a very different game.

Steve Rico
Ken Climo
Dez Reading
Dave Feldberg
Barry Shultz

These are just a few of the people who I've seen make foot faults in NT and Worlds play while watching video frame by frame; foot-faults that weren't called. In one case, that foot-fault, if called, would have changed the final position and payout. Of course we'll never know, because no one calls it, and we have no record of what is actually happening. </font>







Lyle you are off your rocker old man. What if Barry foot faults on a shot that parked the hole so he is called on it and on his replay of the shot he aces it?

S&amp;D would just create more problems within our sport which are much larger than foot faults. Well maybe not within the sport but at least within the PDGA.



That's great logic. I don't know what it means or how the first paragraph relates to S&amp;D, but it's great logic. What you have written is consistent with the current rules structure, someone foot faults, gets called, and then makes a second throw. Of course, this would never happen since no one calls foot faults.

Perhaps what you're trying to say is that Barry is supposed to S&amp;D, somehow doesn't, gets called on it and then redrives and aces the hole. The "logic" being that if he hadn't been called on this violation the ace which changed the outcome wouldn't have happened? If that's what you're trying to say, the difference is that in one case, he broke the rules (whether it's S&amp;D or foot fault makes no difference) and in the other he obeyed them. If he can set aside the pressure of the penalty and deliver, frankly he deserves the shot!

What I think you're really trying to say is that you're adding one more rule, S&amp;D that can be broken on the course. What I'm telling you is that the current rule gets broken all the time and is affecting tournament outcomes. S&amp;D eliminates that problem. You might think it's complex but it's pretty obvious when people don't stand in and the pressure to obey this rule will be huge since it is such an obvious violation.

Let me reiterate, S&amp;D doesn't add complexity, it actually takes it away making the shot simpler with fewer places where there can be a rules violation.

On the other hand, you are correct, I am off my rocker...

Karl
Apr 30 2008, 12:09 PM
Lyle,

Your...

"Let me also point out that I wonder, if the difference between having fun and not having fun at this sport is three to five steps on second throws away from the tee box, how in the world do you guys have any fun at all?"

...Perfect.

And all that talk about "quiting" (Can you say "Wambulance alert!") and a new governing body would form (one without S&amp;D)...get serious. Discussing / arguing one side of any point with facts will produce a better situation. Idle threats / emotion does little...except weaken that side of the discussion. Buck up! Intelligently think about it and state something relevant.

Karl

Lyle O Ross
Apr 30 2008, 12:24 PM
Thanks for the info Lyle. Did you notice a difference if the person was using their mini or the disc?



Hey Chaca, sorry I didn't see this until just now. Honestly, I don't recall. I know I've seen foot faults with both (there is a beautiful shot of Ken missing on a mini, and another of Rico missing a foot placement at Golden States on a full disc that I've seen) but if I were to hazard a guess, it makes no difference. My impression, without knowing, is that most players learn a run up. They get familiar with that run up and know approximately how far back they have to go to hit their final foot placement relatively close to their mark. After that, it doesn't matter what the mark is. It's like anything, if you practice it enough you hit your mark most of the time even though you're not looking. I compare it to the long jump. Long jumpers jump for a living. They run down that track dozens of times a day. They don't look down because that will kill their pacing and their distance. Even though that is all they do, they still miss their mark at a high frequency. They get caught because there is a line judge watching them. Oh, and by the way, they pay, and it changes outcomes.

ANHYZER
Apr 30 2008, 01:26 PM
Can we get the stats on the player ratings of the Anti-Run up crowd vs. the Pro-Run up crowd?

Another statistic I'd like to see is the average age of the Anti group. I am willing to hypothesize that there is a correlation to low rating and high age with the Anti group...

Run ups are cool, jump putts are cool, overhand shots are cool, rollers are cool. Nothing but standstill throws would not be cool.

mbohn
Apr 30 2008, 01:40 PM
Hey I've got a great I dea to go with this S&amp;D thing.

First we create a disc golf club designed after the Jai-Alai thing or a skeet flinger thing, and we start a new rule that you have to catapult your disc down the fairway.

Then we can also change the basket design into a much smaller target.....Then you would have to use the club to shoot your disc into a hole scaled closer to ball-golf.....

That way we would look much more like ball golfers as we stood still on the fairway and used our club to deliver the disc down the fairway.

Of course we would have to start re-designing the courses to have way less obstacles, trees and the like, clear-cutting and nice grass covered fairways here we come.

Man! I can't wait to play disc golf with all these new rules and changes. Of course myself and everyone will just go with it, and not split off from these new sanctioned events to keep playing the way they are used to playing.... Its no big deal.....

We would just do what we are told...

gnduke
Apr 30 2008, 01:40 PM
Don't know that it would clarify anything. I am all for trying to enforce the rules already in place before you try to engineer a work around solution.

One of the largest aspects of ball golf is the concept of self regulation and integrity. The rules are followed simply because they are the rules. We should strive for the same thing. It does not matter whether a rule effects the outcome of the hole or the tournament, braking any rule should invoke the prescribed punishment, all the time. Just because it is the rule, and everyone must play by the same rules.

Which is really the gist of the problem, in order for all groups to play by the same rules, experience tells us that certain rules are generally not called on most cards. In that light, not calling foot faults is an effort to make the game more fair.

krupicka
Apr 30 2008, 01:47 PM
The other problem with foot faults on a run-up is that it is difficult to call an infraction on yourself. Pretty much all the other rules are easily observed by the player, and a player of integrity can call the penalty on themselves. Not so with a foot fault on a run-up (unless they wipe out by stepping on the disc/marker).

I wonder how much Bob Kurland complained in 1945 when the NCAA changed rules on him. The NCAA must have been short, old guys that couldn't play well. :eek:

mbohn
Apr 30 2008, 01:48 PM
I agree, that enforcing what we have is the answer.

I occasionally call foot faults. Usually it is when a player is missing it by a large margin on several throws. And, yes, I watch each player throw every time. So if you are foot faulting to the point that you are getting an unfair advantage I will get you called on it. I will get another player in my group to be on the ready to second the call, and we watch the player and make the call. This is done in order to get the player thinking that it is going to cost in the long run....

the_kid
Apr 30 2008, 02:19 PM
I agree, that enforcing what we have is the answer.

I occasionally call foot faults. Usually it is when a player is missing it by a large margin on several throws. And, yes, I watch each player throw every time. So if you are foot faulting to the point that you are getting an unfair advantage I will get you called on it. I will get another player in my group to be on the ready to second the call, and we watch the player and make the call. This is done in order to get the player thinking that it is going to cost in the long run....




Thank you very much! I have called foot faults on people but it is when they are off their mini by more then a few inches.

Why don't you old guys grow some balls and make the calls instead of taking our game and changing it in a way that will seem less attractive to younger players and spectators in general. All for what? Lyle watching videos of players foot faulting when he hasn't played a tournament in years? :confused:

atxdiscgolfer
Apr 30 2008, 02:32 PM
Lyle watching videos of players foot faulting when he hasn't played a tournament in years?

- thats hilarious :D

james_mccaine
Apr 30 2008, 02:48 PM
Don't make this an old guys/young guys issue. I have never heard any of my master-aged fellow players say "Hey, I wish we had to throw without stepping." Never heard it.

tbender
Apr 30 2008, 02:49 PM
Houck has never played a tourney. So I guess his opinions on DG rules are even less relevant, huh?

(Could really care less about what the rule is, but just pointing out that tourney experience isn't relevant to DG experience.)

the_kid
Apr 30 2008, 03:27 PM
Houck has never played a tourney. So I guess his opinions on DG rules are even less relevant, huh?

(Could really care less about what the rule is, but just pointing out that tourney experience isn't relevant to DG experience.)




He is claiming that nobody calls foot faults yet he has no way of knowing due to his lack of tournament experience.


James, I don't think anyone is trying to make this an old/young discussion but from what I have seen the majority of the Pro S&amp;D guys are lower rated and older compared to the Anti S&amp;D guys. Probably because younger guys just like to try to throw far (just like in BG) and taking away 30% of their distance doesn't seem too appealing whereas the older players don't rely on distance as much as their accuracy so a S&amp;D rule would directly appeal to them because it would allow them to compete with better players.

gotcha
Apr 30 2008, 03:59 PM
Houck has never played a tourney.



You sure about that, Tbend?

tbender
Apr 30 2008, 04:07 PM
Houck has never played a tourney.



You sure about that, Tbend?



Well he hasn't played one in awhile for certain...
http://www.pdga.com/tournament/playerstats.php?PDGANum=1688

prairie_dawg
Apr 30 2008, 05:42 PM
Houck has played in tourneys when you was knee high to a grasshopper :D :eek: :o:D:cool:

Lyle O Ross
Apr 30 2008, 06:28 PM
I agree, that enforcing what we have is the answer.

I occasionally call foot faults. Usually it is when a player is missing it by a large margin on several throws. And, yes, I watch each player throw every time. So if you are foot faulting to the point that you are getting an unfair advantage I will get you called on it. I will get another player in my group to be on the ready to second the call, and we watch the player and make the call. This is done in order to get the player thinking that it is going to cost in the long run....




Thank you very much! I have called foot faults on people but it is when they are off their mini by more then a few inches.

Why don't you old guys grow some balls and make the calls instead of taking our game and changing it in a way that will seem less attractive to younger players and spectators in general. All for what? Lyle watching videos of players foot faulting when he hasn't played a tournament in years? :confused:



YAWN! Let me see if I can guess the logic. You can only see if you actually play tournaments, otherwise you go blind? I notice that you didn't actually address the issue Matt, me thinks you can't.

Lyle O Ross
Apr 30 2008, 06:37 PM
Let me also point out that I've had the "you can only really make an intellectual contribution to the sport if you play tournaments" conversation so many times here that I now just find it amusing that this is the only counter argument that some can make.

I do have a great story to tell about this. My brother in law lives in the mountains between Los Gatos and Santa Cruz. Occasionally I go to visit and when I do I travel over to De LaVega to get in a round. The crowd that plays De LaVega has been there for years (as in some of them have been playing DG for 30 years). Some of them find the concept of both the PDGA and tournament players to be... amusing. This conversation would make them LOL, probably over a beer while kicking the tar out of the average Pro player. Most of them play with a handful of discs and like to laugh about those guys who hawk one brand or another and go on about what great players they are and how much the sport should conform to their needs.

Anyway, back to your regularly scheduled recognition of the best and brightest of our sport.

Lyle O Ross
Apr 30 2008, 06:51 PM
Houck has never played a tourney. So I guess his opinions on DG rules are even less relevant, huh?

(Could really care less about what the rule is, but just pointing out that tourney experience isn't relevant to DG experience.)




He is claiming that nobody calls foot faults yet he has no way of knowing due to his lack of tournament experience.


<font color="red">WOW, Matt actually made an argument. Let me remind you why I said this. In the video footage that I've watched, no one called any of the dozen or so foot faults I saw. I've played in a few tournaments and seen many foot faults go uncalled. I've also read what Rhett has written about the issue and seen how those who've been called on this violation have been received. I've also walked a number of big tournaments - why Matt, you've seen me out there taking pictures at TS - where I've seen numerous violations. I differ with your notion that it's not occurring Matt - or if it is that it's getting called. My experience, limited as it is, is that it is occurring and that I've never seen it called once in the 50 or so times I've personally seen it.

That should tell you something else, if my play is so limited, and I've seen it 50 or so times, one has to ask how often it is occurring? Now, before Matt comes back with the, "why didn't you call it question," I'm going to tell you, I did, once in my first tournament, at TS. The player in question got in my face darn quick, told me to mind my own business and threatened to tear me a new rear end. In the end, like Rhett, I decided it just wasn't worth the effort, the disruption to my own game, and the bother involved and a player who had a couple of beers in him and weighed 60 lbs more than me made the choice easy. So much for the vaunted, we call our own violations part of the PDGA player's game.

I also saw what happened to Larry at an event when he called a foot fault on a sponsoring player from both the player and the TD. Your notion that this violation is called, or that calling it is easy, is quaint Matt, wrong, but quaint.</font>

James, I don't think anyone is trying to make this an old/young discussion but from what I have seen the majority of the Pro S&amp;D guys are lower rated and older compared to the Anti S&amp;D guys. Probably because younger guys just like to try to throw far (just like in BG) and taking away 30% of their distance doesn't seem too appealing whereas the older players don't rely on distance as much as their accuracy so a S&amp;D rule would directly appeal to them because it would allow them to compete with better players.

Lyle O Ross
Apr 30 2008, 06:59 PM
Now,

Matt isn't the only person who says he calls the penalty, so let me pose a challenge. Call it, not on occasion, but always. Don't give me the Senior version that I watch and call it all the time, my experience is just the opposite and unless I'm playing with a much less skilled group than Senior is, I'm not buying it. Really do it. Go out, watch, call it. I'll bet you won't like the response you get in a big way.

mbohn
Apr 30 2008, 07:09 PM
I didn't say I call it all the time. I said I call it when I think it is an unfair advantage by a repeat offender... And I do call it in those situations with the help on another player in the group.

It has always ended up in the one instance resulting in a warning and not a stroke penalty.

mbohn
Apr 30 2008, 07:18 PM
People call me a rule monger or a nit-picker some times because of this, but I can live with that. Just man up and call it...

Lyle, I would love to get you in my group and I would call you on foot faults even if you were right on! Of course I would have to pay off someone in the group to second the call each time. :eek:

Rumor is Steady Ed used to do that just to mess with his close rivals when they were teeing off!

Man would that be fun!

Repeat after me:

Foot Fault!
Foot Fault!
Foot Fault! :D:D

the_kid
Apr 30 2008, 09:01 PM
So we should make this sport totally different because you were scared of the guy you called it on? I was called for a foot fault by <font color="red"> Steve Mills </font> at DGLO on the 2nd hole when I was in 2ft of grass and was like WTF because I didn't see how he could see my mini when I myself had a hard time seeing it. Anyway I didn't wig out just threw again and kept on playing.


Anyway were is this list of average ratings from the Pro S&amp;D VS Anti guys? I can go look and post them here if I need to.

gnduke
Apr 30 2008, 09:56 PM
One problem is the need for a second and it usually takes a repeat offender and a warning to the other players on the card to help watch in order to make the call in the first place.

I watch, make comments to get others watching and call it, but by the time you have drawn the other players attention to it, you have also drawn the offending player's attention to it and repeat occurrences are rare.

All of that being said, stand and deliver is not the answer to this question, attention and education is.

the_kid
Apr 30 2008, 10:11 PM
One problem is the need for a second and it usually takes a repeat offender and a warning to the other players on the card to help watch in order to make the call in the first place.

I watch, make comments to get others watching and call it, but by the time you have drawn the other players attention to it, you have also drawn the offending player's attention to it and repeat occurrences are rare.

All of that being said, stand and deliver is not the answer to this question, attention and education is.




^^^^^listen to that guy^^^^^^^

Lyle O Ross
May 01 2008, 10:45 AM
So we should make this sport totally different because you were scared of the guy you called it on? I was called for a foot fault by <font color="red"> Steve Mills </font> at DGLO on the 2nd hole when I was in 2ft of grass and was like WTF because I didn't see how he could see my mini when I myself had a hard time seeing it. Anyway I didn't wig out just threw again and kept on playing.


Anyway were is this list of average ratings from the Pro S&amp;D VS Anti guys? I can go look and post them here if I need to.



No, we should change the sport because the rule as it currently exists doesn't work. Despite your best protestations, I've been hearing about this rule as a problem since I first came to the sport. That'd be back when you were still a pup runnin' around with your Da'. I've seen and heard of way more cases that go way beyond my experience where it's a problem. You ignore that but you can't make it go away.

Tell ya what Senior and Matt. Make it even easier. In the next five tournaments you play in, instead of you calling the foot faults, challenge everyone on your card to watch you and call you on the foot faults. I'll watch here and see what tournaments you register for and I'll post to make sure you stood up to your principals "Call it man" and we'll see how it goes.

If you are convinced that is the solution, that prove it with yourselves on the line.

BTW Matt, if your notion that there is something important in the S&amp;D pool vs the non-S&amp;D pool is the best argument you can make, I suggest you stay off the debate team. Also, the fact that Steve Mills called you for a foot fault is just amazin' man. Now take that and multiply it by every player on every card actually watching you for this violation. Of course the fact that you and Steve go at it doesn't really have any impact on this issue and is more a function of your personal relationship. But it does point something out. Because Steve and you have a history, he actually watched looking for an opportunity to get one up on you. Apparently it paid off. Well, give everyone the opportunity, take my challenge. On the other hand, if you aren't willing to then I might suggest you revisit your position.

Lyle O Ross
May 01 2008, 10:51 AM
One problem is the need for a second and it usually takes a repeat offender and a warning to the other players on the card to help watch in order to make the call in the first place.

I watch, make comments to get others watching and call it, but by the time you have drawn the other players attention to it, you have also drawn the offending player's attention to it and repeat occurrences are rare.

All of that being said, stand and deliver is not the answer to this question, attention and education is.



In theory this is great. In practice a) it's not happening, b) it ignores human nature, c) for it to be effective you will have to have officials call it.

In a perfect world where we were all responsible, this would not be an issue. But in the &gt; 10 years I've been playing, the issue has persisted and the conversation "we need to call the rules" has been put forward in dozens of conversations. Yet nothing changes. Education is a wonderful thing, but I'm not buyin' that it is going to happen.

gotcha
May 01 2008, 11:03 AM
Hey Lyle......here's a suggestion:

Maybe you should consider hosting/organizing an x-tier S&amp;D tournament. It would be interesting to see how many people participate in such an event.

Giles
May 01 2008, 11:08 AM
This stand and deliver rule will never happen. Your energy would be better spent increasing the allowed deviation from your mini in an open fairway.

Lyle O Ross
May 01 2008, 12:48 PM
Hey Lyle......here's a suggestion:

Maybe you should consider hosting/organizing an x-tier S&amp;D tournament. It would be interesting to see how many people participate in such an event.



It would do the same as any event, if the payout was high, everyone would come, if the payout was low, no one would come. If you're looking for me to concede the point that there would be some protests over this change, point conceded.

MTL21676
May 01 2008, 12:50 PM
I wouldn't come to S&amp;D only tournament no matter the payout.

Why?

B/c its not disc golf. It's stupid.

Lyle O Ross
May 01 2008, 12:53 PM
This stand and deliver rule will never happen. Your energy would be better spent increasing the allowed deviation from your mini in an open fairway.



Been there done that. Argued that the foot placement region should be an arc that is 30 cm in diameter away from the target. Nice idea, though it still doesn't solve the problem. You may be right, in fact I'd argue that you are, the change won't happen. If for no other reason than the rules committee strongly believes that the run up on open field throws is an exciting part of the game that adds to the flavor of the sport.

Matt forgets that this MB and such conversations are for fun and most often have no real impact on PDGA policy.

Nonetheless, there is a problem and we should solve it.

Giles
May 01 2008, 12:56 PM
Check out the beat while the DJ revolves it..

bazkitcase5
May 01 2008, 01:05 PM
This issue is really no different than pot. If nobody in a tournament is going to call it, then people will smoke. If people are calling it, you will start seeing it less and less. This is an issue I've noticed personally, that I rarely see people trying to smoke during tournaments anymore (unlike in the past). Maybe I am in a good area, who knows, but I think the increased enforcement has everything to do with it. At first players and sometimes TDs will get mad, but if they can't follow the rules, then shouldn't be playing, and certainly shouldn't be TDing.

With footfaults, nobody has been calling them, so people don't worry about where their foot lands. If people would start calling them, more people would begin to pay attention or suffer the consequences. Again, its all about following the rules, for both the players and the TD. If they get mad at you because they can't follow the rules, then there is more problems with this sport than a foot fault. It is really very easy to hit your mark when your paying attention. You have up to 30 cm behind your mini/disc for your foot to land (which is a lot, when you really think about it and you can even do as Giles mentioned and increase this distance to around 50 cm or something). If your having trouble stepping on or past your mini on a run up, aim 10-30 cm behind your mini on purpose. If your missing your mark left or right, you should learn to run up in a straight line. You could even mention it to your group before the round starts. Something along the lines of "I believe in following the rules and will be looking for foot faults. I will not be overly punitive, but if you miss your mark completely, you can expect to get called on it." Some will probably snicker, others probably will get mad, but I bet you they pay more attention to where their feet land. I personally find it fairly easy to hit your mark if your actually paying attention and practice that way. I usually wear cleats where I'm playing a course that requires a lot of fairway run ups and I almost always hit my mark in practice and touranments, because I am actually paying attention.

atxdiscgolfer
May 01 2008, 01:21 PM
Hey Lyle......here's a suggestion:

Maybe you should consider hosting/organizing an x-tier S&amp;D tournament. It would be interesting to see how many people participate in such an event.

\


great point!! My point is that stand and deliver makes no sense in disc golf where a run up is required whereas in ball golf you always stand and deliver because you have no choice unless you want to look like Happy Gilmore!! I can stand and deliver a 300 ft+ sidearm shot but I cant throw a backhand stand and deliver shot over 300.

stack
May 13 2008, 12:42 AM
thought this was funny... this was pointed out to me from Rodney (aka grodney) on the Charlotte discussion board... seems the more things change the more they stay the same... this topic/debate def. isn't a new one

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.sport...c734c7eb51f7161 (http://groups.google.com/group/rec.sport.disc/browse_frm/thread/6361320ccdbf0c00/ac734c7eb51f7161?#ac734c7eb51f7161)

lefty_anhyzer
May 13 2008, 01:57 AM
Too funny. I posted on that thread back then but don't remember the discussion at all now. Thanks for the link. I just spent an hour looking at a bunch of old rec.sport.disc posts. It was a pretty entertaining newsgroup.

Judging from my posts there, I'm realizing I've been playing disc golf for 10 years this summer. Time flies when you're throwing discs.

stack
May 13 2008, 09:43 AM
yeah... thought it'd be interesting for people to take a look back.

i'm sure one could go back and find a 'debate' about almost everything that gets brought up today

flyboy
May 16 2008, 02:40 AM
Every action has a reaction....
The legs, knees ,and ankels ,take less wear ,but the upper body does more work, to make up for,no run up..
I do both..
We have bigger fish to fry...
This will not change the big picture.
We are where we play...
f18