ANHYZER
Mar 02 2008, 02:24 AM

JHBlader86
Mar 02 2008, 02:37 AM
If I'm playing an 800 ft. hole and I'm driving only 350ft and cant do a run up on my 2nd shot then forget playing in tournaments and forget the PDGA.

reallybadputter
Mar 02 2008, 08:41 AM
If I'm playing an 800 ft. hole and I'm driving only 350ft and cant do a run up on my 2nd shot then forget playing in tournaments and forget the PDGA.



So you'd quit tournaments because a hole that takes you 3 shots to reach now, 350 + 350 + 100 becomes a hole that takes you 3 shots to reach? 350 + 275 + 175

Wow... will you also quit the game every time there's a 15 mph headwind? :D

gotcha
Mar 02 2008, 09:17 AM
If I'm playing an 800 ft. hole and I'm driving only 350ft and cant do a run up on my 2nd shot then forget playing in tournaments and forget the PDGA.



So you'd quit tournaments because a hole that takes you 3 shots to reach now, 350 + 350 + 100 becomes a hole that takes you 3 shots to reach? 350 + 275 + 175

Wow... will you also quit the game every time there's a 15 mph headwind? :D



I can't speak for Dude Jr., but I can guesstimate that if the S&D rule was implemented (even if only for "pros") we would see a mass exodus from PDGA sanctioned events and possibly a new organization altogether. Don't worry folks....S&D will not happen....this is simply message board junk and the only winners will be the proponents who stand and deliver the most bs on this topic. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

krupicka
Mar 02 2008, 12:53 PM
but I can guesstimate that if the S&D rule was implemented (even if only for "pros") we would see a mass exodus from PDGA sanctioned events and possibly a new organization altogether.



Just like the 2m rule change... or the lost disc rule change...

the_kid
Mar 02 2008, 01:02 PM
but I can guesstimate that if the S&D rule was implemented (even if only for "pros") we would see a mass exodus from PDGA sanctioned events and possibly a new organization altogether.



Just like the 2m rule change... or the lost disc rule change...




No S&D is worse.

JHBlader86
Mar 02 2008, 08:47 PM
If I'm playing an 800 ft. hole and I'm driving only 350ft and cant do a run up on my 2nd shot then forget playing in tournaments and forget the PDGA.



So you'd quit tournaments because a hole that takes you 3 shots to reach now, 350 + 350 + 100 becomes a hole that takes you 3 shots to reach? 350 + 275 + 175

Wow... will you also quit the game every time there's a 15 mph headwind? :D



It's more based out of principle that it hurts most players, and only favors big guns. Plus, if I couldnt run up then I risk getting 4's and 5's on a hole I could normally 3, and thus my rating will decline.

robertsummers
Mar 02 2008, 10:14 PM
Here is my only problem with that is that it hurts my arm not to be able to follow thru completely without a runup.

zbiberst
Mar 02 2008, 11:15 PM
in my opinion aside of all of this talk being plain silly, its just plain daft to think that all people could do this without hurting themselves.

try replicating a kickoff by kicking a football as far as you can without your supporting foot leaving the ground. (just an example, im sure there are many more) its the same with throwing just about anything. people are always going to throw as hard as they can, if you restrict their movement they are still going to try to throw as hard as they can, they will just hurt themselves.

MTL21676
Mar 02 2008, 11:38 PM
the worst part of this is Lyle Ross is the biggest supporter of it.....and he wants all courses to be minimum par 60 meaning at minimum you have 6 shots full shots per round be stand still.

Horrible idea that will NEVER happen.

the_kid
Mar 02 2008, 11:46 PM
the worst part of this is Lyle Ross is the biggest supporter of it.....and he wants all courses to be minimum par 60 meaning at minimum you have 6 shots full shots per round be stand still.

Horrible idea that will NEVER happen.





Lyle also only reaches back and takes 1 or 2 steps on any throw.

ck34
Mar 03 2008, 12:19 AM
Here is my only problem with that is that it hurts my arm not to be able to follow thru completely without a runup.


Then I don't see how you can possibly play this game since there are many places on many courses where a run-up can't be done. That is unless you only play on soccer fields? Everyone should count how many shots outside of 10m you actually do throw in round without a true run-up. One step or rocking step is along the lines of S&D and would not count as a run-up shot.

ANHYZER
Mar 03 2008, 02:54 AM
http://i28.tinypic.com/240yi4x.jpg

robertsummers
Mar 03 2008, 10:27 AM
Here is my only problem with that is that it hurts my arm not to be able to follow thru completely without a runup.


Then I don't see how you can possibly play this game since there are many places on many courses where a run-up can't be done. That is unless you only play on soccer fields? Everyone should count how many shots outside of 10m you actually do throw in round without a true run-up. One step or rocking step is along the lines of S&D and would not count as a run-up shot.



I hurt my shoulder almost exactly a year ago and played through the pain for a while before last fall when I went to the doctors and got an x-ray and an MRI only so they could say they couldn't find anything structurely and diagnosed me with tendonitis. Now I stand still on shots inside about 150 ft because there isn't that much momentum on a shot like that. Now if I can do 1 cross step that is fine that is what I do short X-step on the tee even now, but to have to stand still on a shot over 150' causes me a lot of discomfort. I have absolutely no reason to lie and no "hidden agenda", but I am almost sure that if the rule is to plant your foot behind the disc like you would on a close aproach and to not allow that energy to slowly escape then the stress will catch up to your joints eventually.

Another big point for me is how would this rule make the game better or more fair.

robertsummers
Mar 03 2008, 10:32 AM
Also I don't buy the there are many places you can't take a runup scenario. There are many places women can't vote, many people that drink and drive, many people that voted George W. Bush and many places where I would be in trouble for that last comment. But just because there are many of anything does not mean that it is the right thing all the time.

MTL21676
Mar 03 2008, 10:36 AM
Everyone should count how many shots outside of 10m you actually do throw in round without a true run-up. One step or rocking step is along the lines of S&D and would not count as a run-up shot.



Unless I am putting or forced into a stand still lie (such as disc right behind / infront a tree, in the rough, etc), I run up on every shot. Even 100 ft. approaches. Maybe not a full run up, but I am X-stepping into the approach.

ck34
Mar 03 2008, 10:37 AM
I would only support some version of S&D for pros in competition. So Ams, those with throwing restrictions for medical reasons and those playing recreationally would still be able to play as today and be within the rules.

Mar 03 2008, 10:42 AM
geez, what a waste of band with! How about more time being spent of finding sponsors.

JD, I think you need to have a decent rating before you worry about it declining :o]

chrispfrisbee
Mar 03 2008, 10:59 AM
Why???? What is the purpose of this "rule", besides limiting how far one could throw a second shot?

Second Bob's post. The main function of the PDGA besides Event scheduling and Results & Member tracking should be gaining corporate sponsorship for the National Tour. We have enough "rules" already..

will24411
Mar 03 2008, 11:13 AM
lol this is stupid (this "rule")

reallybadputter
Mar 03 2008, 11:26 AM
Second Bob's post. The main function of the PDGA besides Event scheduling and Results & Member tracking should be gaining corporate sponsorship for the National Tour. We have enough "rules" already..



I didn't realize that anyone discussing this was "The PDGA" I guess this discussion is a more complete waste of time than the "Best new disc of 2007" where 870 rated players are now throwing 425 feet with their destroyer.

Idle message board speculation is always fun.

What if the confederacy had won the civil war?

Mar 03 2008, 11:30 AM
What if the confederacy had won the civil war?



The PDGA would have S&D in the rulebooks...

reallybadputter
Mar 03 2008, 11:52 AM
What if the confederacy had won the civil war?



The PDGA would have S&D in the rulebooks...



No, No, No... That would have happened if the Germans hadn't bombed Pearl Harbor, drawing us into the war and we hadn't kicked the Japanese out of France... :)

(See, there are a lot bigger wastes of bandwidth possible... :) )

Mar 03 2008, 01:17 PM
870 rated players throwing 425??? Maybe you should call Innova and tell them your gripe, technology/advancements in discs are to blame for that. and if they want to improve that 870 they may want to work on the complete game :o

and to answer your question about the civil war. We would not have Oscama running for president :eek:




Second Bob's post. The main function of the PDGA besides Event scheduling and Results & Member tracking should be gaining corporate sponsorship for the National Tour. We have enough "rules" already..



I didn't realize that anyone discussing this was "The PDGA" I guess this discussion is a more complete waste of time than the "Best new disc of 2007" where 870 rated players are now throwing 425 feet with their destroyer.

Idle message board speculation is always fun.

What if the confederacy had won the civil war?

michellewade
Mar 03 2008, 05:13 PM
Dave, what's the actual rule no. so I can look it up?

ck34
Mar 03 2008, 05:23 PM
Dave, what's the actual rule no. so I can look it up?


Classic :D

(There is no rule...)

the_kid
Mar 03 2008, 05:38 PM
Dave, what's the actual rule no. so I can look it up?


Classic :D

(There is no rule...)




Chuck you said the counterpoints were irrelevant in the other thread but don't you think others thing your points are meaningless? I see no way that this would make the sport more exciting or more challenging but you are changing the entire nature of the game in a way that will scramble the players we have today's standings in the sport. You will have 970 players that become 1000 because they stand still anyway and have 1020 guys go down below 1000 because they cannot time their shots without at least one step.


Anyway I say just enforce the rules and there will be no need for a Stupid & Dumb rule. If it were used I could see myself move to casual only play because standing still and throwing over 250 hurts my back and knees quite badly after a few throws so if it were common it would be a safety riesk to my health. Either that or try to get amnesty to play AM again.

So where are these marshalls following the cards to call the rules? Every sport which has been mentioned in favor of a change have officials calling the shots not the players.

ck34
Mar 03 2008, 05:55 PM
I think charging pros $1000 annual dues to support many more marshals might be perceived as stupider than S&D.

I didn't say the arguments were irrelevant, just emotion based. If the game had started with S&D required on the fairway, the arguments against going to a run-up like we allow now would be even stronger. Dave and others brought up the S&D concept and I jumped in. I've helped many an Am improve their accuracy in the woods showing them how to S&D so I supported their idea. I just think it's more suited as a potential rule for pros who already have or could easily develop the skills to throw that way.

I'm not hung up on S&D in particular. I just think the pro game needs help if players like you desire to ever see bigger money. The game as it exists right now does not draw spectators. S&D alone isn't THE solution. It's just part of a dialog to open the bigger discussion on what's needed to interest spectators. No spectators - No sponsor money. It's really pretty simple. If we had 10K spectators at events, the sponsors would be calling PDGA HQ rather than us begging for handouts.

I think several more changes more radical than S&D will be needed to draw spectators. But that can be fodder for many more fun threads.

the_kid
Mar 03 2008, 06:04 PM
If you think a rule change is going to make the sport more fun to watch you may be right but you are going in the wrong direction if you ask me. If a course is designed well for the level of players who are playing then there would be no problem. It seems these courses are obsolete because they are AM level courses that Pros can tear up. If we made sure that tournaments put players on courses close to their level there wouldn't be an arguement for that point.

You may claim that standing still can increase accuracy but that is not with everyone and almost every 1000+ rated player I play with uses a runup unless it is a short approach or a putt.

ck34
Mar 03 2008, 06:09 PM
You also play in Texas. It's not the case in places with more trees and wooded corridors. Just like they teach in ball golf about lining up your heels for lining up your shot, it works just as well in DG if your accuracy is suffering.

Video cameras already can't capture how cool our drives are. The longer they throw, the harder they will be to see as a spectator and for the camera to truly capture how cool an S-curve whipping thru the woods can be.

sandalman
Mar 03 2008, 06:11 PM
S&D is for mud and slop and cramped lies. we've got much more important rules to fix, like the stroke PLUS distance of the lost disc rule, for example.

if we had 10K spectators at a course on public land, that course would probably be pulled by the following weekend. neither our courses nor the parks they are in are built to handle that kind of foot traffic. not to mention the parking and vehicle traffic.

the_kid
Mar 03 2008, 06:11 PM
You also play in Texas. It's not the case in places with more trees and wooded corridors. Just like they teach in ball golf about lining up your heels for lining up your shot, it works just as well in DG if your accuracy is suffering.

.
Video cameras already can't capture how cool our drives are. The longer they throw, the harder they will be to see as a spectator and for the camera to truly capture how cool an S-curve whipping thru the woods can be.



So making that S short lame will improve our sport? Ok how can you talk about our lack of trees when we have more than the courses I played at the majestic? Oh great job adding Blue Ribbon by the way as it is a great looking course.



The best woods golf I have seen was in TX. Imagine that. I live in the "Piney woods" which seems to contradict the lack of trees you claim we have

sandalman
Mar 03 2008, 06:14 PM
"Video cameras already can't capture how cool our drives are. The longer they throw, the harder they will be to see as a spectator and for the camera to truly capture how cool an S-curve whipping thru the woods can be. "

man, i cant agree with this. while it is true that most disc golf video is hard to watch, a couple/few guys working together with several good cameras can produce compelling footage. take a look at the most recent MSDGC dvd and you will see some nice s-curves whipping thru the woods. we need better overall cam technique, but good DG video is very possible.

ck34
Mar 03 2008, 06:16 PM
if we had 10K spectators at a course on public land, that course would probably be pulled by the following weekend. neither our courses nor the parks they are in are built to handle that kind of foot traffic. not to mention the parking and vehicle traffic.



While that's true, we would have started dealing with that issue way back in the 80s when "only" 1000 were coming out to watch. We would have already needed to design courses and facilities to handle the traffic. So, it wouldn't necessarily be a problem today for 10K. I think many of us would love to solve this future 10K problem of too many spectators by seeing even 500 today.

ck34
Mar 03 2008, 06:21 PM
So making that S short lame will improve our sport? Ok how can you talk about our lack of trees when we have more than the courses I played at the majestic? Oh great job adding Blue Ribbon by the way as it is a great looking course.



It's a good counterpoint to HSSA ski hill mostly in the open. If I had my druthers, I'd love a course that mixed the flat, wooded BRP with the open hills of HSSA. But at least you'll get some of each, just all at once.

the_kid
Mar 03 2008, 06:24 PM
I don't really like Highland but BRP is rally nice if I remember correctly.

ck34
Mar 03 2008, 06:27 PM
take a look at the most recent MSDGC dvd and you will see some nice s-curves whipping thru the woods.


Those videos are anomalies in the sport which couldn't be afforded if the camera footage and editing time wasn't mostly if not all donated. It's still going to be tougher to get compelling video in DG vs BG because the best part of BG is putting which is easy to video and watch. Their drives aren't much other than seeing where it lands. For us, putting is lame for video but driving shines if you can just capture it. The problem is that getting enough spectators in the woods is just not going to work. Maybe we'll need closed circuit video courses to deal with wooded holes so spectators onsite can watch the monitors.

junnila
Mar 03 2008, 06:51 PM
For us, putting is lame for video



Lame video (http://discgolftv.com/dgtv/223/wmv/channel/10?page=1)

the_kid
Mar 03 2008, 07:10 PM
For us, putting is lame for video



Lame video (http://discgolftv.com/dgtv/223/wmv/channel/10?page=1)



very lame

michellewade
Mar 03 2008, 07:22 PM
Dave, what's the actual rule no. so I can look it up?


Classic :D

(There is no rule...)




Chuck you said the counterpoints were irrelevant in the other thread but don't you think others thing your points are meaningless? I see no way that this would make the sport more exciting or more challenging but you are changing the entire nature of the game in a way that will scramble the players we have today's standings in the sport. You will have 970 players that become 1000 because they stand still anyway and have 1020 guys go down below 1000 because they cannot time their shots without at least one step.


Anyway I say just enforce the rules and there will be no need for a Stupid & Dumb rule. If it were used I could see myself move to casual only play because standing still and throwing over 250 hurts my back and knees quite badly after a few throws so if it were common it would be a safety riesk to my health. Either that or try to get amnesty to play AM again.

So where are these marshalls following the cards to call the rules? Every sport which has been mentioned in favor of a change have officials calling the shots not the players.



So you guys are debating a rule that doesn't even exist??? :confused:

sandalman
Mar 03 2008, 07:34 PM
"Those videos are anomalies in the sport which couldn't be afforded if the camera footage and editing time wasn't mostly if not all donated."

maybe, maybe not. one thing that IS irrefutable is that those DVDs exist. 10,000 spectators at an event doesnt. does it matter that the DVD didnt pay for most of the video footage? geez, we dont pay for most of our courses! that fact doesnt cheapen them.

ck34
Mar 03 2008, 07:35 PM
Lame video


Not even looking since I assume it's the famous Cale clip. The putt itself wasn't that interesting. It was totally the scenario in which it was done. Downhill, straight in. Yawner any other time strictly from a technique standpoint. Likewise, Markus and Nate both getting "worked" on missed putts to take the lead on hole 7 of Worlds Finals. Routine putts for them but the pressure situation made the scenario interesting, but not the putts themselves. DG putting happens too fast and is mostly straight in to develop much excitement in video the same way a ball slowly rolls to the hole and people are mentally predicting whether it's going to make it or break in or not.

Show an upside down putt being made from behind a big bush and maybe it might catch people's attention.

ck34
Mar 03 2008, 07:39 PM
does it matter that the DVD didnt pay for most of the video footage?


It's absolutely great that it continues to happen and the videos are fun and well done. We get vast donations of time everywhere in this sport. That's kept the sport going with the downside of burning many people out over the years. But enough new ones seem to be coming onboard to keep it growing. But it doesn't bode well for any kind of economic underpinnings of a professional style sporting environment to support pro level activities.

michellewade
Mar 03 2008, 07:58 PM
For us, putting is lame for video



Lame video (http://discgolftv.com/dgtv/223/wmv/channel/10?page=1)



I thought it was funny!
This one is my favorite: http://www.discgolftv.com/dgtv/75/wmv/channel/9

junnila
Mar 03 2008, 08:31 PM
Show an upside down putt being made from behind a big bush and maybe it might catch people's attention.



You're right, Cale's putt only caught the attention of about 50,000 people.

the_kid
Mar 03 2008, 08:48 PM
Lame video


Not even looking since I assume it's the famous Cale clip. The putt itself wasn't that interesting. It was totally the scenario in which it was done. Downhill, straight in. Yawner any other time strictly from a technique standpoint. Likewise, Markus and Nate both getting "worked" on missed putts to take the lead on hole 7 of Worlds Finals. Routine putts for them but the pressure situation made the scenario interesting, but not the putts themselves. DG putting happens too fast and is mostly straight in to develop much excitement in video the same way a ball slowly rolls to the hole and people are mentally predicting whether it's going to make it or break in or not.

Show an upside down putt being made from behind a big bush and maybe it might catch people's attention.




Markus got worked. Nate putted too low.

MTL21676
Mar 03 2008, 09:12 PM
agreed

the_kid
Mar 03 2008, 09:14 PM
agreed



Ah the man who blew my ear out......

yeah we had a good angle. :D

MTL21676
Mar 03 2008, 09:17 PM
thats right, you and I were walking together when that happened....i forgot about that

CRUSHn
Mar 03 2008, 10:37 PM
stand and deliver also favors forehand throwers!

ck34
Mar 03 2008, 11:01 PM
You're right, Cale's putt only caught the attention of about 50,000 people.


None who paid to see it, at least yet? Those numbers are still a healthy indicator and DGTV along with YouTube and other video sites are blazing the way raising the DG profile.

But the point is that watching the mechanics of putting is not as interesting in DG as BG. Driving/throwing is more compelling. But since even active players seem ambivalent about watching DG in person, unless held for prizes after a Final 9, let alone pay to watch, attracting potential spectators from people even less interested in competing has a long way to go.

Not saying I have the answers, but DG will be fine if "all" it ever is is a hugely popular recreational sport like softball with the only pros making money either teaching or selling sports related products or services.

ck34
Mar 03 2008, 11:26 PM
stand and deliver also favors forehand throwers!


That's a positive for S&D not a negative. Pros should have better rounded skills than ams.

the_kid
Mar 04 2008, 12:06 AM
stand and deliver also favors forehand throwers!


That's a positive for S&D not a negative. Pros should have better rounded skills than ams.




So you should have a sidearm? Never seen Barry or Ken use one. They have good anhyzers

krazyeye
Mar 04 2008, 12:46 AM
For us, putting is lame for video



Lame video (http://discgolftv.com/dgtv/223/wmv/channel/10?page=1)



very lame



How is that lame??? Scooter I know you putt all day but that was a pressure putt. If it was a miss it would be lame.

the_kid
Mar 04 2008, 12:49 AM
For us, putting is lame for video



Lame video (http://discgolftv.com/dgtv/223/wmv/channel/10?page=1)



very lame



How is that lame??? Scooter I know you putt all day but that was a pressure putt. If it was a miss it would be lame.





It was...eh nevermind. :D

















sarcasm

ck34
Mar 04 2008, 12:50 AM
So you should have a sidearm? Never seen Barry or Ken use one. They have good anhyzers


I already posted that it drives Harold and other designers crazy that we can't "force" players to learn how to make certain types of throws because it would be a better choice in a certain situation. It's something that weakens our game that our courses don't challenge players enough to learn a wider variety of throwing skills to get to the top level. You'll also see our top older "old school" players use more variety of throws than younger pros. Greenwell regularly wins the SkillShot Challenge against the top players. I don't think KC and Schultz have even tried it in competition.

the_kid
Mar 04 2008, 12:53 AM
So you should have a sidearm? Never seen Barry or Ken use one. They have good anhyzers


I already posted that it drives Harold and other designers



crazy that we can't "force" players to learn how to make certain types of throws because it would be a better choice in a certain situation. It's something that weakens our game that our courses don't challenge players enough to learn a wider variety of throwing skills to get to the top level. You'll also see our top older "old school" players use more variety of throws than younger pros. Greenwell regularly wins the SkillShot Challenge against the top players. I don't think KC and Schultz have even tried it in competition.



I have and nobody has beat my score yet I only use a sidearm in specific situation since I throw it Lefty. I don't see why forcing a certain shot is such a big deal. Those who can throw the shot the designer wanted should have the advantage over those who do not.

ck34
Mar 04 2008, 01:02 AM
I'm saying that golf requires players to develop certain skills like shots from sand traps, the rough, chip & roll, and lofting shots besides the usual drive and fairway shots. And putting is more different from the other shots than DG. I think our game would be stronger if we could have the game and our top players showcase more types of shot skills. For example, unless Schweb or a handful of other players show up, you may not see a quality overhead shot.

Too bad throwing a sidearm lefty doesn't give you as much advantage but at least you do it. We have a guy here with the same situation where he plays sidearm with the opposite hand so doesn't get the opposite spin.

the_kid
Mar 04 2008, 01:04 AM
Hyzers, Anhyzers, Spikes, grenades, rollers, sidearms, skips, and Tomahawks seem like a lot of variety to me.

junnila
Mar 04 2008, 01:35 AM
You're right, Cale's putt only caught the attention of about 50,000 people.


None who paid to see it, at least yet? Those numbers are still a healthy indicator and DGTV along with YouTube and other video sites are blazing the way raising the DG profile.

But the point is that watching the mechanics of putting is not as interesting in DG as BG. Driving/throwing is more compelling. But since even active players seem ambivalent about watching DG in person, unless held for prizes after a Final 9, let alone pay to watch, attracting potential spectators from people even less interested in competing has a long way to go.

Not saying I have the answers, but DG will be fine if "all" it ever is is a hugely popular recreational sport like softball with the only pros making money either teaching or selling sports related products or services.



I wasn't arguing any of the points made above, just pointing out the fact that your statements often come off as overly generalized and obtuse.

mpetre
Mar 04 2008, 01:46 AM
Uh oh! Here I am posting again, as a lowly rec-rater that's only been in the sport a couple of years... (that was my attempt at a disclaimer.)

I don't see the need for a stand and deliver rule, but perhaps we should be more strict about calling foot faults on fairway drives or on jump putts. Technically if a person throws their jump putt once they are in the air it is a violation of the rules. Once we start becoming sticklers for these there would be absolutely no need for stand and deliver rules (which in my opinion do make the game a bit of a drag.) If we could all just accept that anyone may call us on foot faults and if it's backed up we have to try again (or stroke us, and in this case I'd say you deserve two warnings instead of one since we're going to be more proactive calling them.) Again, just the two cents of a high school ball golfer turned ball golfer at middle age (oh god! did I just admit that finally?) I'd say a better rule for disc golf would be that you have to be in contact with your mini-marker when you throw (then it's easier to judge faults than the current way.) Hmm, just an idea.

cgkdisc
Mar 04 2008, 02:00 AM
I wasn't arguing any of the points made above, just pointing out the fact that your statements often come off as overly generalized and obtuse.


Spoken like a true accountant who provides one example in attempt to negate the generalization. ;)

BTW, I've added this separate account which I'll use for posting more as a member than insider. I'll use my full name account when posting more official related info and commentary.

CRUISER
Mar 04 2008, 02:07 AM
Off the topic, but how many accounts are we allowed?

mpetre
Mar 04 2008, 02:09 AM
I had to say one other thing... I held a little skills competition a few weeks back here in Houston and had all of 8 people show up (which was fine with me because I was just trying to make sure I had the format right), but it made me realize that most disc golfers are playing for competition and ratings (the greatest thing to happen to disc golf) or for just partying and fun. Very few are really interested in learning from a technical standpoint and I don't think this is so bad. Our sport hopefully will remain forever young and you will never have a million bad training aids, books, etc. that will make you better overnight. We will grow. We will grow too big one day! I always quiz the folks I play with about their line of work. Over 70% are computer programmers, DB admins, etc. I think that particular career field may be growing (sarcasm, oh yeah and we may have more Indian players than even cricket :)) and in turn maybe the base for our little sport is growing? Remember what skateboarding was in the mid-80s?

cgkdisc
Mar 04 2008, 02:19 AM
Again, we're just discussing the possibility of tweaking competitive play at the highest levels that might impact the top 2000 players, not even be a ripple among the 100s of thousands who play just for fun, most who play by the rules they choose.

mpetre
Mar 04 2008, 02:22 AM
I have to disagree on this one. If the rule were to be regarded as appropriate to top players then I'm going to follow it too. At some point I may appear elitist to someone, but that's the furthest thing from the truth, I'm very egalitarian. As it stands, I know the pros have a dress code for top events (now, I feel that I should do the same.) Doesn't this make sense?

cgkdisc
Mar 04 2008, 02:29 AM
That's fine. But as a PDGA member, you would be in the tier of players between pros and the vast number of rec players who will play they way they want such as falling putts, optional foot placement, not using markers, using Aerobies, not calling OB or even playing from it, relocating lies from prickers or low pine trees without penalty, using a towel under their knee , etc.

Oh, and like me, you have a ball golf mentality regarding rules where calling them on yourself is ingrained.

mpetre
Mar 04 2008, 02:34 AM
True, but I am seeing from local play here in Houston that many of us in the "intermediate" level (yes, I HATE the new classifications!!!!) really want to do whatever it takes to play the game the same as the very best pros. I must admit that most of those that I meet in this category are professionals (in their own career, mostly computer related) and they don't partake in heavy drinking or other substance use while playing. But isn't this the true future of our sport?

I guess what I'm saying is... I know that I will never be a pro, but I want to be professional about how I approach disc golf. I owe so much to this sport, more than I could ever put into words... a few of them, love of my life with my wife, friends that are real, breaks from the stress of work. I feel that I owe it to the sport to treat it with great respect, yet at the same time always remember it's just recreation. All professions are just recreation if we truly love what we do. Life is short and we can't take it too seriously... (OK, that's my own private joke related to this skit on '70s era Saturday Night Live about 3 Mile Island. "You can't put too much water in the Nuclear Reactor!") Anyone remember this one?

cgkdisc
Mar 04 2008, 02:40 AM
But isn't this the true future of our sport?


I don't think so in terms of the core rec players. You and your buddies are a step above. Players will naturally be more computer literate as technology permeates all levels of society. But that won't necessarily change the mixture of people interested in playing recreationally. And there are only so many engineers. Who knows? They may end up leaving the outdoor game and playing DG on fantasy courses with their Wiis :eek:

mpetre
Mar 04 2008, 02:45 AM
Oh that hurts... I HATE video games almost as much as I hate the new PDGA classifications!! I do DG because it is REAL and nothing on the computer compares to doing something that is real. I think that people trapped in offices all day have a hunger for something like disc golf. Egalitarian, cheap, fun, complicated, competitive without being brutal, friendly to the environment, etc. I think you will see the country clubs of yesterday becoming the disc golf courses of tomorrow (oh wait! check out what's going on with Texas States :)) Ok, so I had to plug the greatest little event that's going to happen in 2008 disc golf. A country club that once held the Houston Open is now going to be the site of the Texas Disc Golf Championships and we get the same great treatment and venue that the PGA guys got a few decades ago. hmmmmm...

gotcha
Mar 04 2008, 10:16 AM
Don't worry folks....S&D will not happen....this is simply message board junk and the only winners will be the proponents who stand and deliver the most bs on this topic. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif



Happy Birthday, Chuck! :D

tbender
Mar 04 2008, 10:37 AM
stand and deliver also favors forehand throwers!


That's a positive for S&D not a negative. Pros should have better rounded skills than ams.


So you should have a sidearm? Never seen Barry or Ken use one. They have good anhyzers



Backhand savants.

cgkdisc
Mar 04 2008, 10:39 AM
Backhand savants.


Must have heard Harold use that phrase a dozen times.

MTL21676
Mar 04 2008, 10:40 AM
why do you have a second log in name?

cgkdisc
Mar 04 2008, 10:53 AM
This new one is going to be my day-to-day posting now. I'll use my full name login for more official PDGA type comments and info. Seems like it will help on threads like these when we're just discussing 'blue sky' ideas and hopefully not lead people to believe it's some project lurking behind the scenes as a stealth PDGA initiative.

MTL21676
Mar 04 2008, 10:53 AM
makes sense.

timmyg
Mar 04 2008, 11:29 AM
Can't believe I just read all this, but the Majestic was brought up so it was brought to my attention.
A Stand and deliver rule is a horrible idea.

I'll start a Majestic thread so as to not sidetrack here.

cgkdisc
Mar 04 2008, 11:47 AM
Hey Timmy, the better discussion on this started on another thread by Dave Dunipace among others:

Dave D: "I would like to see the stand and deliver fairway shot tried in a tournament. I see disadvantages and advantages.

The disadvantages would be the change, (people have a tough time with change), the wow factor (distance) on the second shot would be reduced and the difficulty increased.

The advantages would be: safety, (especially on uneven loose terrain) , no more hitting (missing) your mark, increased necessity for additional skills, (also a disadvantage from another point of view), less land use for multiple shot holes."

Maybe USDGC could use a little more challenge? Wait, you're already likely to S&D on many shots just with the design there. ;)

Sharky
Mar 04 2008, 01:02 PM
Add safety to the disadvantage list too please... more arm injuries likely.

cgkdisc
Mar 04 2008, 01:22 PM
Not sure about that. I think we've all seen more injuries to hands in particular when players whack a tree on their follow thru mostly because they could do a run-up. I would think no run-up will reduce arm injuries or their severity with less force in general being involved and shorter follow-thru. Ron Russell had one of the more famous ones like this when he completed the round with his left hand after wrecking his right that way.

tbender
Mar 04 2008, 01:25 PM
Add safety to the disadvantage list too please... more arm injuries likely.



If injuries are incurred via bad arm mechanics, does that actually qualify as a disadvantage?

I know several women who throw from a standstill and they've suffered no injuries from it. Of course, they have better throwing mechanics than most of the men I see play too -- myself included.

Karl
Mar 04 2008, 01:49 PM
Mark,

For every arm injury "caused" by a standstill throw, there will probably be at least TWO leg injuries directly caused by tripping up during an uneven-surfaced run up. Therefore there would be less injuries!

Everyone,

Some other person said something about "...losing rating points" (due to not getting to the basket in as many shots). Like he'd be the ONLY person in that boat; obviously he didn't think too deeply about the subject or the actual ramifications of the topic (it would just make ANY course just a wee bit harder and ratings (overall) would vary one bit). As Chuck alluded to, it's amazing how emotional some people get when you take "their" security blanket away from them.

In general, it would be VERY difficult to inact this on a permenant basis...not because it is bad...but because everyone's already gotten a taste of "just throwing the crap out of every shot" (and they think THEY are the only person who REALLY benefits from this...ego-centric, aren't we?!) and are afraid to learn new techniques. "Enforcement of the existing rule" is their mantra, yet it is like enforcement of the speed limit in driving - do so (if you're a cop) and you are to be despised. So "everybody" just assumes it's OK.

Face it, the foot fault rule will NEVER be enforced universally as much as it should be (just like the speeding law...notice I say LAW and not OPTION). It (the foot fault rule) might only be enforced if you have a "grudge" against someone...say someone who sides against you in a discussion on the message board :eek:. We have the ability to "set up" something (a rule) which would eliminate such a problem. It would be very hard to eliminate the "speed" problem (governors on cars...but the manufacturers / marketers wouldn't go for it), but we could eliminate the foot fault problem (which is RAMPANT) with a small rule change.

What's the matter, are you one of the people who think that this "S&D" rule would only affect you? A little short sighted, aren't we? It WILL affect you in a good way - it will make the game simpler (by not having to worry about ff's as much); and it might actually help you...although, I'm guessing that those that have "piped in" have already assessed that they have not enough game to compensate.

And, by the way, I fully expect that people will attack only a certain part of what's written here; only focusing in on what they see, twist it around (spin Dr's abound), and "claim victory"!

Rant off.

Karl

Ps: Personally, I am living without it (a S&D rule) and could live with it; I just think that it would make the game's rules easier (and thus be an improvement).

Martin_Bohn
Mar 04 2008, 02:54 PM
Where are the DGRZ representatives? They should be all over this as a solution to foot faults!!! :)
For better or worse everyone plays by the same rules,..... an argument can be made that the majority of courses in the world really wouldnt challenge people for a second shot, seeing as how most courses are designed with an average hole length of 277 to 333 feet, easily reachable for most people with average disc golf skills from teepad to basket.
Disclaimer: previous stats are VERY general in term and dont reflect level of difficulty for any specific course anyone may want to mention. :eek:

Fats
Mar 04 2008, 03:34 PM
While this rule is pretty moot for me (I throw standstill fairly often), I don't see HOW it would increase viewership. It's been likened to ball golf, but people go see Tiger and, hell, even [censored] Daly because they CRUSH IT! They don't go to see them use 3-irons. The viewership boon came because of a switchover from older, traditional-style players (your Tom Kites and your Greg Normans) to younger, hipper crushers.

If disc golf wants to attract an audience, they'll do it by appealing to those who like watching freaks of nature bomb out 500+ foot shots, or make 80' putts. It won't happen because someone is able to layup from 320' without running up.

While I'm not vomiting over this potential rule, I don't see the reason being given for increased viewership to be even remotely relevant.

p.s. If it ever comes to be, I think B.O.B. goes from 980 rated player to 1020.

edit: the [censored] word was f a t t y. I have no idea why they censored that. Silly moderators.

Karl
Mar 04 2008, 03:54 PM
Derek,

You beat me to the punch! I was JUST going to refer to MTL's posts in the other thread on this topic (god knows why there are 2...) regarding what a difference it COULD make to some / but not others and mention that - for those who think it CAN'T be done (throw long and effectively) - that they need to play a round with BOB (from NJ). Perfect example!

Robert,

As for using it in the USDGC, I can't tell you (whether it's good or bad) but I DO agree with you about "wanting to play it"...I (also?) think there are better venues to play dg in. But that's another thread.

As for "place foot legally behind lie, pause 1 sec., throw, follow through (all you want, if > 10m from target)", it WOULD virtually eliminate ff's AND wouldn't really affect course play much at all. Really, sincerely (no fudging it) try it! I have. It doesn't make NEARLY as much a difference as you might imagine; and who is to judge that that difference (minimal as it may be) is WORSE! It (the difference) just is. Sort of like when table tennis went to a 40mm (from a 38mm) ball. Did some of the players scream bloddy murder? Not really. Did the "cream of the crop" still rise? Yes. They did it to stop the 3-hit point (serve, return of serve, stuff down the returner's throat) which was about as long a rally as you were getting. They did it to "save their (table tennis) game". It certainly won't do that for us (nor do we NEED to "save our game"); but it can make it more skills oriented (slightly) and "tighten up" the rules calling abit (or the ability to do so).

Karl

the_kid
Mar 04 2008, 04:13 PM
How will it make it more skills oriented? You are restricting the skills.

If the was a S&D rule that would be the end of the over the top shot, Big anhyzer bomb, Big thumber, and the shot variety we already have to choose from.

Foot faults aren't the biggest issue in the sport and either you need to call it or realize an inch or two difference doesn't do much.

Anyway if a S&D rule were put into place the Pros would definately raise hell which as you can see they are the ones here opposing such a change.

Also I could see the current trend of young players rising fast slow down because us young guys like to throw long and like to try stupid shots and if you take that away we might as well play BG.

MTL21676
Mar 04 2008, 04:24 PM
I'm not arguing that foot faults need to be called more....

but is it really worth completely changing the game so people don't miss their mini by 3 inches on anymore?

the_kid
Mar 04 2008, 04:26 PM
I'm not arguing that foot faults need to be called more....

but is it really worth completely changing the game so people don't miss their mini by 3 inches on anymore?



Not too me! I can see it being a big deal if we get BIG but by that time we should have Marshalls calling the shots not the players.

MTL21676
Mar 04 2008, 04:30 PM
exactly.

nanook
Mar 04 2008, 04:40 PM
I'm not arguing that foot faults need to be called more....

but is it really worth completely changing the game so people don't miss their mini by 3 inches on anymore?


I don't feel strongly about this issue because I'm comfortable throwing either type of fairway shot. But a thought occurred to me. Wouldn't a hard-nosed S&D fanatic want there to be run-ups so they could call the missed mark and mess with the heads of the "run-up crowd"? :o I'm just saying... :D

the_kid
Mar 04 2008, 04:45 PM
I'm not arguing that foot faults need to be called more....

but is it really worth completely changing the game so people don't miss their mini by 3 inches on anymore?


I don't feel strongly about this issue because I'm comfortable throwing either type of fairway shot. But a thought occurred to me. Wouldn't a hard-nosed S&D fanatic want there to be run-ups so they could call the missed mark and mess with the heads of the "run-up crowd"? :o I'm just saying... :D



No I would think that a lot of those hardcore pro S&D guys would be for it because they already do it and it would artificially make them better.

Karl
Mar 04 2008, 04:55 PM
Trying to answer some of the questions in reverse order...

Your "exactly" isn't totally correct. I envision "rules infractions" in the future being called - as they are now in bg - by BOTH the "referees" and the players. I know several bg touring pros. They will admit that as many rules infractions are called by the players - maybe more - than are by the officials. We (dg) don't want a bunch of officials watching over us like a bunch of vultures, do we? If we "leave it to the officials" we could end up with that! Bg officials know they are there to "adjudicate" as much as perform the "hey, that's an infraction!"

Matt, see my comments [in brackets] within your comments below:

"How will it make it more skills oriented? You are restricting the skills." [Not even close! What you'd have to do is actually think / pull off a "shot" instead of powering EVERYTHING.]

"If the was a S&D rule that would be the end of the over the top shot, Big anhyzer bomb, Big thumber, and the shot variety we already have to choose from." [Again, not even close. I throw a lot more "overhands" than most (just ask my playing partners) and the majority of these - that aren't from the tee pad - are a standstill. If anything, it would INCREASE the use of such. As for big anhy's, etc., me thinks the reason you CAN get them to be so "huge" is that you aren't as close to your mark as you think you are...and thus give yourself the "room" to "go around" what you'd normally have to finesse through. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE going high, but you'd have to use a lot more rollers, scoobies, pocket grenades, squibs, tunnels, etc. if you couldn't just 'rare back and wing'.

The bottom line (at least in my book) is that we have a rule which WILL NOT be enforced. Period. WE refuse (collectively) to do so! We have 3 choices as I see it:
1) Play ostrich to the rule (if this is the case, why have it at all? Why not just let anarchy rein?
2) Call the rule (which we REFUSE to do; think all you want that we SHOULD call it, we still won't)
3) Change the rule (to something we can better enforce / live with).

"Foot faults aren't the biggest issue in the sport [I also don't think ff's aren't the biggest issue in the sport...but I'm intelligent enough to handle multiple problems at once...I believe you are too!]
and either you need to call it [collectively, we - the PDGA - will not do this...we've already had YEARS of proving this one.] or realize an inch or two difference doesn't do much." [How about 3"? 6"? 1'? Where do you draw the line? A rule is either a rule or it isn't.]

Anyway if a S&D rule were put into place the Pros would definately raise hell which as you can see they are the ones here opposing such a change. [No, I see comments from about 5 or 6 of the same persons - over and over; I doubt you speak for all the pros (or all the ams for that matter...they could too you know...or don't you believe that?).]

Also I could see the current trend of young players rising fast slow down because us young guys like to throw long and like to try stupid shots and if you take that away we might as well play BG. [Silly argument. Not even all tee shots are full power. And "S&D" shots CAN be "full power", just from a standstill!]

Karl

cefire
Mar 04 2008, 05:32 PM
FYI - People do call footfaults (I was called twice on it this past year - once on the tee, once on an open fairway drive; no big deal, rethrow and be more vigilant so you don't get a stroke) I also saw several others get called during this past tournament year.

If other people can call it so can you - its not hard, just two words :)

People seem to be complaining that power can override the finesse portion of the game. It takes more finesse to throw an accurate controlled 450' turnover "bomb" than a 350' turnover...

I like the fact that right now, people get to use athleticism (yes, physical strength and athletic talent) while throwing discs. It enhances the game greatly IMO and there is absolutely no way I'd be playing PDGA if this rule was ever in effect (which it never will be, just wanted to "speak up" and add support to the rational people on this forum).

BTW - Being close to your mark has nothing to do with how far you throw or the ability to throw bomb turnovers (rolls eyes)

sandalman
Mar 04 2008, 05:44 PM
Spoken like a true accountant who provides one example in attempt to negate the generalization. ;)

ha! thanks, chuck, i need to remember that one.

Happy Birthday Chuck!

cgkdisc
Mar 04 2008, 05:53 PM
I have my moments even at this advanced age... :cool:

pawdawg
Mar 04 2008, 06:03 PM
How did we manage to play golf for over 20 years without this being such a major issue? Why is it suddenly a issue now?

Maybe the only thing keeping disc golf from being on par with stick golf is the idea that the sport, its rules, tourneys and all issues dealing with disc golf seem to be considered a debate for the masses to disect at will.

In the 1980's we all knew what a foot fault was, it was when you tried to gain a advantage by circumventing your marker. I guess now a foot fault is anytime a player in the group sees a chance to win by useing every rule to the letter in order to gain a advantage.

I dont see where S and D is the solution. I would perfer to see the mark defined as 30cm wide and 1 meter back.

the_kid
Mar 04 2008, 06:08 PM
How did we manage to play golf for over 20 years without this being such a major issue? Why is it suddenly a issue now?

Maybe the only thing keeping disc golf from being on par with stick golf is the idea that the sport, its rules, tourneys and all issues dealing with disc golf seem to be considered a debate for the masses to disect at will.

In the 1980's we all knew what a foot fault was, it was when you tried to gain a advantage by circumventing your marker. I guess now a foot fault is anytime a player in the group sees a chance to win by useing every rule to the letter in order to gain a advantage.

I dont see where S and D is the solution. I would perfer to see the mark defined as 30cm wide and 3 meters back.



If you had a mark that large it would be easy to go around trees after a bad shot.........


Anyway the rule is fine as it is and I have never had it be an issue on any of my cards in the past 8 years.

pawdawg
Mar 04 2008, 06:11 PM
I can use the current rule to get out from behind tress. The current rule has also at times forced champions to crush their hand into trees redering their event over.

junnila
Mar 04 2008, 06:14 PM
Spoken like a true accountant who provides one example in attempt to negate the generalization. ;)



Spoken like a true consultant who views their personal opinions as fact.

davidsauls
Mar 04 2008, 06:20 PM
For every arm injury "caused" by a standstill throw, there will probably be at least TWO leg injuries directly caused by tripping up during an uneven-surfaced run up. Therefore there would be less injuries!



I know which I fear more. My aging and surgically-repaired shoulder, damaged by years of overuse with baseballs and golf discs, is stressed whenever I must S&D any distance at all. So I pitch from the windup, not the stretch, even when just to kids, and step up on 150' approaches on the disc golf course, so the rest of my body can take some of the beating. I'd prefer a sprained ankle or broken leg over going through all that again.

cgkdisc
Mar 04 2008, 06:24 PM
A consultant provides expertise, commentary, ideas and finds areas where the "emperor has no clothes." It's up to the decision makers and those in power whether to see it or agree with it and take action. Perhaps people should be glad I'm usually not the "decider" as Bush put it and rarely have sought that power. Much more interesting stirring a hot pot as long as you have thick skin. :)

pawdawg
Mar 04 2008, 06:31 PM
Matt I ment to say 1 meter back, and I edited it to read as such. As the rule current reads you can aquire a meter in front of the marker anyways, yet only 30cm backwards.

Greg_R
Mar 05 2008, 07:08 PM
The current rule has also at times forced champions to crush their hand into trees redering their event over.

Umm... no. They _elected_ to swing their arm into a tree instead of safely pitching the disc off to the side. If they chose to take a large risk vs. (effectively) losing 1 stroke, then that is a decision that they'll have to live with.

august
Mar 06 2008, 11:27 AM
The current rule has also at times forced champions to crush their hand into trees redering their event over.

Umm... no. They _elected_ to swing their arm into a tree instead of safely pitching the disc off to the side. If they chose to take a large risk vs. (effectively) losing 1 stroke, then that is a decision that they'll have to live with.



803.02XQ40(Z)
When playing within arm's length of a tree, all champions shall crush their throwing hand into said tree.

accidentalROLLER
Mar 06 2008, 11:32 AM
I had forgotten about that rule.....must be in the Q&A.

eupher61
Mar 06 2008, 11:36 PM
For every arm injury "caused" by a standstill throw, there will probably be at least TWO leg injuries directly caused by tripping up during an uneven-surfaced run up. Therefore there would be less injuries!



I know which I fear more. My aging and surgically-repaired shoulder, damaged by years of overuse with baseballs and golf discs, is stressed whenever I must S&D any distance at all. So I pitch from the windup, not the stretch, even when just to kids, and step up on 150' approaches on the disc golf course, so the rest of my body can take some of the beating. I'd prefer a sprained ankle or broken leg over going through all that again.


Thank you David for your first-person account. I'm in total agreement regarding the injury potential. If you trip and break a leg, you had bigger problems. No one says you CAN'T S&D--there are times when I do--but to say a runup is never allowed is out of the question. IMNSHO. And I'm always right.

Ain't I? :confused:

davidsauls
Mar 07 2008, 09:34 AM
No one says you CAN'T S&D--there are times when I do--but to say a runup is never allowed is out of the question.



At least under current rules you can pick your poison---which injury do you wish to risk, more power vs. more accuracy*---and the chance to make bad decisions makes the game more fun.

( * - I have my doubts about the "more accuracy" part, but concede it for the sake of argument).

tbender
Mar 07 2008, 11:21 AM
Standing still is definitely more accurate, in my own experience. Fewer moving parts, better focus on mechanics. Of course, I came from Ultimate where you have to throw from a standstill, so YMMV.

davidsauls
Mar 07 2008, 01:14 PM
For myself, standing still is more accurate up to 80% power....but if I try to throw full-power standing still, I tend to be wild. Perhaps a case of bad fundamentals on my part. Along the same lines, and with basketball free-throws specifically in mind, I think jump-putts are a silly idea---but much better players than me believe in them, so maybe I'm wrong.

Teemac
Mar 12 2008, 10:13 PM
A rule should never give one player an advantage over another player. Strength, weight, age, athleticism, height, these things should.

Mar 13 2008, 01:09 PM
A way to improve the sport is not by placing restrictions on the game. I don't see how you can call this rule anything other than a restriction. You say that it will only affect top level players and that tons of recreational players will play as they wish. Well, they beauty of the sport is that it is easy to "pick up". If you encourage top players to S&D, but then state that rec players can play as they wish, this creates a huge gap from a player starting as a rec and improving through the rankings. In turn I really feel like this would limit the amount of PDGA players and in turn would hurt the sport tremendously.

It was claimed that S&D is safer due due more improved lies. Well, after about 8 years of play I've seen one broken ankle... and it was off of a concrete Teepad, not the fairway. I know I don't represent the population, but plenty of courses have gravel/dirt T's. For safety reasons with this argument we should make all throws S&D.

Maybe don't allow disc technology improvement as much. Don't punish people for working on aspects of their game for loads of time just to make top leveled plays have to restart and lose talent out of their hand. Rule changes like OB and Lost Disc don't change the dynamics of the game.... This proposed rule change does. It will not help the sport, and one must realize that the goal shouldn't be changing rules to make people interested. It should be exposure to the sport, then we'll talk once it's on TV.

Another thing is before we look at this, get rid of weed. I'd have to say that I am not against pot, but i do not partake, but at EVERY pdga event i've seen it. You really think we're gonna be taken seriously when a dad takes his 6 year old son to a disc golf tournament just to see a big name smokin reefer on hole 5? This is the sports biggest hurtle to overcome, to rid the sport of stereotype and to not fullfill the stereotype.

Giles
Mar 13 2008, 01:49 PM
NORMAL. Don't change them, change society.


A way to improve the sport is not by placing restrictions on the game. I don't see how you can call this rule anything other than a restriction. You say that it will only affect top level players and that tons of recreational players will play as they wish. Well, they beauty of the sport is that it is easy to "pick up". If you encourage top players to S&D, but then state that rec players can play as they wish, this creates a huge gap from a player starting as a rec and improving through the rankings. In turn I really feel like this would limit the amount of PDGA players and in turn would hurt the sport tremendously.

It was claimed that S&D is safer due due more improved lies. Well, after about 8 years of play I've seen one broken ankle... and it was off of a concrete Teepad, not the fairway. I know I don't represent the population, but plenty of courses have gravel/dirt T's. For safety reasons with this argument we should make all throws S&D.

Maybe don't allow disc technology improvement as much. Don't punish people for working on aspects of their game for loads of time just to make top leveled plays have to restart and lose talent out of their hand. Rule changes like OB and Lost Disc don't change the dynamics of the game.... This proposed rule change does. It will not help the sport, and one must realize that the goal shouldn't be changing rules to make people interested. It should be exposure to the sport, then we'll talk once it's on TV.

Another thing is before we look at this, get rid of weed. I'd have to say that I am not against pot, but i do not partake, but at EVERY pdga event i've seen it. You really think we're gonna be taken seriously when a dad takes his 6 year old son to a disc golf tournament just to see a big name smokin reefer on hole 5? This is the sports biggest hurtle to overcome, to rid the sport of stereotype and to not fullfill the stereotype.

DreaminTree
Mar 13 2008, 03:06 PM
NORMAL. Don't change them, change society.



Thats all well and good (and I'm for it), but he has a point. Alcohol is legal and accepted by society but you dont see tiger woods pounding beers behind a tree at the Masters. Its unprofessional and against the rules.

crgadyk
Mar 13 2008, 04:09 PM
NORMAL. Don't change them, change society.



Thats all well and good (and I'm for it), but he has a point. Alcohol is legal and accepted by society but you dont see tiger woods pounding beers behind a tree at the Masters. Its unprofessional and against the rules.


His name wouldn't be Tiger Woods then... it would be John Daly :eek: :p

Mar 14 2008, 12:23 AM
Well, if we are comparing to golf, our tiger woods suposedly smokes the gonge before rounds. And the other thing is that alcohol is legal and i guarantee if John Daly ever brought it on the course during a round, hell in the pga world would break loose.

Sounds lame, but encourage dress codes even for am's. No cut-offs, shirts stay on, anything positive. I don't think cursing really matters at the level the sport is at now, but if it ever gets big to be a weekly TV occurance, it obviously would be.

All in all S&D is stupid... wait i didn't rant about that in this post.

But in seriousness, after thinking about it, eliminating S&D messes with a lot of people. Just thinking, I mean, nobody on this board seems to likes MTL (sorry bud it's true. I don't mind you, but I think you know people find you obnoxious on here) but if their is a guy that wants to see this sport grow it's him. For my example I don't think he ever S&D's. Any short throw he has to take a little tiny run-up just to keep everything in control. If you take this away from him and other people who do the same thing (me included) you significantly limit the high level of competition and accuracy.

Anyway, still after sitting on it really don't think it's a huge help. And MTL, I'm not hatin on you, I really enjoyed watching the final card at buckhorn. I think your shot stole the show that round.

mgaffney
Mar 19 2008, 02:35 PM
Eventually Our top pros will be on television for the whole world to watch and scrutinize. One day someone will call in from watching them on their high def tv and call a rules infraction resulting in a DQ for the offending player because he or she turned in an incorrect scorecard. We need to be proactive in our thinking and amend or change potentially scrutinized situations like foot faults.
Stand and deliver is an effective fix to the problem of foot faults, and may have some other positive effects when it comes to the watch ability of our sport on TV.
Gaff

Martin_Norris
Mar 19 2008, 04:52 PM
Stand and deliver eliminates the question of release point relative to the marker or disc lie from the previous spot.
Stand and deliver will not result in injury to the player, injury will be self inflected from improper form, over aggressive power, or some other factor solely based with in the player making the shot.
Stand and deliver will not advantage or disadvantage any one player or class of players if it were made a universal rule. (see level playing field)
If Stand and deliver shortens your shots then it will also shorten every ones shots (no advantage gain / loss there)
Stand and deliver will not effect ratings since those are based on the performance of the competing field and if the field is playing level conditions and rules then all things are equal, (skill and other individual factors not withstanding)
The playing field is not always so level at the current time since players who cannot jump at the end of putts and who cannot navigate an X step in the fairway are forced to compete with players who can.
Just as NASCAR has attempted to make all cars equal to showcase driver skill, a uniform rule basis for DG that will allow the players to show case skills and not muscular development would serve to encourage new players to enter and compete in our sport.
The only location on most disc golf courses designed for good footing needed for running shots is the tee area and while we all happily risk life and limb doing run up shots in the other parts of the course for the perceived added distance, we do not always gain that much of an edge with the resulting throws.
For the ball golfers: there seems to be no rule against taking a run-up for a tee or fairway shot in BG but the control issues tend to make that impractical at best and the resultant drives while wildly long are also not controllable.

Honestly I have not seen any valid arguments for not adopting the stand and deliver rule. It might even shorten the amount of land use required for installing a course and allow us to place more courses on land that is not currently LONG enough for the run up bombers to play.
Disc Golf is a game of skill and while it does require a measure of athletic ability it should be based around skill(s) and not pure physical power. While a 650+ foot drive is an awesome feet to behold a 125 foot approach through and between obstacles is just as exciting and requires a great deal more skill and muscle control (and is something that even new players and old folks can master with practice)

SUB NOTE:
While I have never called a foot fault on fairway drives and long approches I have also never seen any player touch the rear edge of the marker at release after a run up so maybe we just do away with marking the lie since no one with a run up ever releases on spot anyway?

the_kid
Mar 19 2008, 06:48 PM
Stand and deliver eliminates the question of release point relative to the marker or disc lie from the previous spot.
Stand and deliver will not result in injury to the player, injury will be self inflected from improper form, over aggressive power, or some other factor solely based with in the player making the shot.
Stand and deliver will not advantage or disadvantage any one player or class of players if it were made a universal rule. (see level playing field)
If Stand and deliver shortens your shots then it will also shorten every ones shots (no advantage gain / loss there)
Stand and deliver will not effect ratings since those are based on the performance of the competing field and if the field is playing level conditions and rules then all things are equal, (skill and other individual factors not withstanding)
The playing field is not always so level at the current time since players who cannot jump at the end of putts and who cannot navigate an X step in the fairway are forced to compete with players who can.
Just as NASCAR has attempted to make all cars equal to showcase driver skill, a uniform rule basis for DG that will allow the players to show case skills and not muscular development would serve to encourage new players to enter and compete in our sport.
The only location on most disc golf courses designed for good footing needed for running shots is the tee area and while we all happily risk life and limb doing run up shots in the other parts of the course for the perceived added distance, we do not always gain that much of an edge with the resulting throws.
For the ball golfers: there seems to be no rule against taking a run-up for a tee or fairway shot in BG but the control issues tend to make that impractical at best and the resultant drives while wildly long are also not controllable.

Honestly I have not seen any valid arguments for not adopting the stand and deliver rule. It might even shorten the amount of land use required for installing a course and allow us to place more courses on land that is not currently LONG enough for the run up bombers to play.
Disc Golf is a game of skill and while it does require a measure of athletic ability it should be based around skill(s) and not pure physical power. While a 650+ foot drive is an awesome feet to behold a 125 foot approach through and between obstacles is just as exciting and requires a great deal more skill and muscle control (and is something that even new players and old folks can master with practice)

SUB NOTE:
While I have never called a foot fault on fairway drives and long approches I have also never seen any player touch the rear edge of the marker at release after a run up so maybe we just do away with marking the lie since no one with a run up ever releases on spot anyway?





What makes you an expert on throwing form and makes you feel this makes everything more fair? Ratings will change since some 1000+ guys will play worse without the runup compared to a 950 guy who never runs up anyway.

I have been called for a foot fault once (by mills) and there shouldn't be a problem if it is called and I know for a fact S&D wouldn't make the sport more fun to watch and competitive.

krupicka
Mar 19 2008, 06:56 PM
I know for a fact S&D wouldn't make the sport more fun to watch and competitive.



Care to cite your sources or research?

cgkdisc
Mar 19 2008, 07:02 PM
Haven't you observed how all of our spectators look away and talk amongst themselves when a player is just standing there to throw? But, if a player is getting set to run-up, the fans all turn to ooh and aah... :D

the_kid
Mar 19 2008, 07:02 PM
I know for a fact S&D wouldn't make the sport more fun to watch and competitive.



Care to cite your sources or research?




Is less distance more fun? Golf wasn't going too good until recently with the introduction of players who can hit the long ball. It seems as though we are heading towards this direction and many players seem to think that we need to stop this by implementing a handicap for players who throw far so that others have a better chance.


With a runup I can throw farther than the vast majority of players but take that runup away and the gap narrows significantly.

tbender
Mar 19 2008, 07:08 PM
Golf wasn't going too good until recently with the introduction of Tiger Woods.



Fixed.

Yeah, he crushes, but he's also very very very good at everything else. Even John Daly's appearance on the scene before Tiger didn't impact the sport like he did.

crgadyk
Mar 19 2008, 07:29 PM
John Daly is the reason I watch golf... the fact that he spent a Saturday at the Hooters tent eating wings and getting drunk makes him fat and stupid! Going against the status quo of the staunch repuation that golf has is what makes him awesome.

krazyeye
Mar 20 2008, 12:54 AM
No, it makes him fat and stupid.

davidsauls
Mar 20 2008, 10:35 AM
Eventually Our top pros will be on television for the whole world to watch and scrutinize.



Stated as if it is a fact....but it is highly improbable. Some think this should be our goal; others of us see it as a pipe dream. Let's focus on making the game ever better for those who play it, rather than make radical changes for those who might one day watch it.

mgaffney
Mar 20 2008, 04:58 PM
Stated as if it is a fact....but it is highly improbable


Writing I think or I feel is bad form in persuasive writing or debating. Of course that is my opinion, that should be assumed in all posts. This whole thread is speculation and conjecture.
I hope, before I die, to be able to sit in front of my TV and watch the young guns bomb 500 ft holes on ESPN 8 (The Ocho). :)

Giles
Mar 20 2008, 06:08 PM
from a stand still....

ck34
Mar 20 2008, 06:36 PM
Of course, will it be that much more impressive flying 25 inches across your flat screen than 21 inches? /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

mgaffney
Mar 20 2008, 06:59 PM
17 inch laptop vs 55 inch DLP with the son of I don't Know Bob Costas whispering the color commentary.
I can dream :p

vwkeepontruckin
Mar 22 2008, 01:03 PM
Geoff Bennett and I have been complaining about people not watching other people throw for a while. I have called footfaults in the past and had them not seconded b/c no one else saw it. How fair is that?

A S&D rule would be treating symptoms, not the ailness.