--------------------------------------Protection Plate----------------------------------

A young man had finally decided to move away from his families home. He had packed his only possession, a little dinner plate, and left without a word. After many days of wandering, he began to starve. Suddenly, his nose caught fire with the smell of food. He ran and ran until he found himself in a bazaar of sorts. People were everywhere. His hunger panged in his gut.
"Free food for the guys with the orange hats," the bearded man yelled into the crowd.
"Where can i get an Orange hat," asked the young man nervously.
"Oh, you cant have one; Sorry sir, no CHANCE at this food, now move along."
The younger man sulked at this let down. Why couldn't he sit down and eat the bountiful meal with the older bearded gentlemen. Our friend had nearly given up hope, and was about to leave, when from another side of the crowded fairground he heard a burley voice exclaim. "Free food for the guys with Blue hats," and again, "People with Blue hats, step right up." Our friend made his way through the crowd. He saw the man with the growling burley voice, and behind him, well, food for miles. "Can I help you," bellowed the man.
"Oh, well, hello sir, I am very hungry, where can i get a Blue hat?"
"All you have to do is ask my friend. No codes or restrictions here. "
"WOW, thats great. You mean they have all this food and i can just ask for a Blue hat and be part of it?"
"Thats right! We let anyone in to our feast."
The young mans face swiveled from side to side as he eyed through the crowd. Everything was wonderful, and then, suddenly he was stumped by what he saw. There were men with orange hats eating at the tables. Well, they had on Blue hats, but also orange ones!!! "Sir," the young shouted, "those men have on orange hats!!!"
"Oh thats OK my little friend," boomed the man, " We let all people who wish join us here." The Large man spread his arms wide to demonstrate that he meant the whole crowd. The younger man looked confused. "But sir, There is another area on the other side of the fairground, where..." he paused, " where the orange hats are eating!" Suddenly, a loud grumble came from the large man, it was followed by a deep, exhaustive laugh. It was so loud that many a person turned his head to see what was so funny. When he finished laughing, the large man took a deep breath " why young man, you must be new here," the young man nodded, "Well, it could mean many things. Maybe there are not a lot of orange hats around today, and these gentlemen didn't want to eat alone, or with just a small crowd," said the large man. As the young man listened he curiously eyed all the people eating, and nodded his head. "But thats not all," the large man said, "Maybe the Orange hats came and saw that the Blue hats in here had smaller plates. You see," the large man continued, and bent over to console the confused young man, "The Blue hats always have better food, but somedays, only blue hats with small plates show up. When an Orange hat sees that he has a chance at better food, AND with a bigger plate.... well my boy," he said " do you see where Im going?" The young man looked down at his shoes. After a moment he looked up. "But, how come they can eat here and when they see that it benefits them, or when they are just a few, but...... but, they wont let anyone else into their area?" At this, the large man pursed his lips and began to knuckle his forehead. "Well son, " said the large man, " I guess thats just the way it is. Some people have choices, they are free to move about the the fairground.... kind of like an all access pass." The young man quickly stammered in, "what about blue hats?" The large man shook his head and frowned. "The Blue hats have it rough here. Usually, there a lot of them around. Sometimes there are quite a few with large, gigantic plates. On these days, there just isn't enough food...." "but sir" the young man interrupted, " Where else can the blue hats go to get food?" The Large man took another deep breath, " its very difficult.. you see, once a blue had has eaten in the blue tent, he cant eat anywhere else, well, at least not for a long time. The Orange hats are free to go where the food is better, or the plates are smaller, but the Blue hat cannot. It is just the way it is."
The young mans eyes began to tear up and he said, "but i just got here, and i have only this tiny, tiny, plate to eat with. Where can I go?
"Well, my boy," said the Large man, "you can go into the Blue tent, but there is a chance your small plate wont get any food. But, you can also go where all the other very small plates go." The young mans eyes lit up with hope. "where is that, please tell me, Im so hungry"... "Well," The large man said, " you can go to a vender and he will give you vitamin pills. They are like food, but without the familiar smell, and texture."
He could not take anymore. It was all so confusing. How come some people could go where ever they wanted, and some were could not. The young man began to walk away, shoulders slumped. Behind him he heard words echoing from the large mans chest and mouth. "Be careful my boy, for one day, you will want real food and not those vitamin pills any longer. Make sure you are ready for real food. Bring a large plate back with you, because once you've tasted the Blue hats food, and receive your own blue hat.... you're stuck with them. Remember, a big plate...!"
-sjur-

wow that was an interesting way to get the point across there sjur, but i like it. only question is how long did that take to TType?

then that boy without a hat eventually banded together with other newcomers... learned how to play instruments and got a band together as they grew into men and would sing to the blue & orange hats...
"We can dance if we want to ... we can leave your friends behind
'Cause your friends don't dance and if they don't dance... well they're no friends of mine"

seriously though... that sjur is a good example/story!

submit it to the magazine!
http://www.hallewood.com/animation%20-%20clapping.gif

best post ever

Couldn't agree more.

It would be a nice story if only everyone that asked for food at the blue hat area had a chance to eat. Alas that many will starve.

Yes everyone should be able to eat according to the size of their plate, not the color of their hat.

Nice Post :cool:

boo hoo, poor open players not getting ALL the added cash.

LOL...cmon Biscoe, Its not about that, its about "protected" divisions and the people who pick and choose where they want to play, when others don,t have that choice.

i don't see the fact that top players of masters age have one more option than you "young bucks" as a problem, believe it or not it becomes more difficult to maintain your skill level as you age, even for genetic freaks like pat pitts.

not so much at 40 though. protection at 40 seems unwarrented.

Unlike your story, the blue hats in dgolf are competing for the majority of the cash, or the bigger food plates. Besides limited choice, I fail to see any further correlation in the story (such as smaller plates or starving or vitamins). Sorry.

not so much at 40 though. protection at 40 seems unwarrented.



any age it is set at will be arbitrary. why switch from one arbitrary age to another? i am really getting fed up with change for change's sake from the ORG.

in my personal experience i have physically deteriorated considerably since turning 40- eyes are worse, weight is more difficult to keep off, quickness is completely gone, etc,etc. it seems like changing because a FEW players like pitts don't age as quickly as the rest of us is ignoring the experience of MANY.

not so much at 40 though. protection at 40 seems unwarrented.



In your eyes. Other studies and discussions have concluded differently. But then again, this has been gone over before ...............

not so much at 40 though. protection at 40 seems unwarrented.



any age it is set at will be arbitrary. why switch from one arbitrary age to another? i am really getting fed up with change for change's sake from the ORG.

in my personal experience i have physically deteriorated considerably since turning 40- eyes are worse, weight is more difficult to keep off, quickness is completely gone, etc,etc. it seems like changing because a FEW players like pitts don't age as quickly as the rest of us is ignoring the experience of MANY.



this argues my point i've been making for a while... then why not do away with age protected PROS in the first place? The whole idea to me when I first started playing sounded ridiculous. (That and Ams worrying about how much merch they got).

Point is... a pro is someone who can play @ a high level and make money. If you cant play at that level for whatever the reason (injury, lack of talent, lack of time to practice, AGE, whatever)... should you be considered a pro? They have places for every one of those examples to be protected called AMs... the age is the only one that feels the need to say 'we may not be able to hack it with the Open players but we still want to be called Pros'

This just in... Brett Favre said he is still going to be playing Pro football next year... but it will be for the MNFL (Masters National Football League)... I have Madden on my Legends National Football League fantasy team.... he's great!

...so does that apply to the senior tour in ball golf as well?

Unlike your story, the blue hats in dgolf are competing for the majority of the cash, or the bigger food plates. Besides limited choice, I fail to see any further correlation in the story (such as smaller plates or starving or vitamins). Sorry.


Really? thats strange. Its all right there.

Tennis and ball golf have a seniors circuit, as do many other sports. Still pay cash, just not as much as the regular pro circuits. Starting age and bracket size (number of years between divisions) vary by sport.

Its not unprecendented, its not unusual.

the senior PGA tour also pays all competitors who finish the event.

its like a "congrats on not dying" bonus.

what age does ball golf starts at (for the senior/masters tour)?

im not saying that might not be a goal to aspire to down the road when there is more money to be had... im talking about thinning it out now while the sport is developing.... if/when we get to the point where a senior tour or events can hold their own then that'll be great! (and not just because it'd be around the time i'd be in the legends division)

i do want to say that even if I disagreed with Sjur's comments (which I dont)... I think its great to have thoughts like this on here getting talked about in a logical manner and by people in the sport w/ various interesting viewpoints.

Unlike your story, the blue hats in dgolf are competing for the majority of the cash, or the bigger food plates. Besides limited choice, I fail to see any further correlation in the story (such as smaller plates or starving or vitamins). Sorry.


Really? thats strange. Its all right there.




Sorry, but I really don't see where the pro division player is starving and stuck with 'small plates' or no food while the protected division is eating well off of 'large plates'. Seems to me that the large plates (large purses, most added cash) are presented to the open pro division. Not that I disagree with that.

I agree that one group has a choice and the other doesn't, but not the pity party of how the blue hats have no food while the orange hats (protected divisions) have excess food. While a wonderful story, I fail to see the coorelation let alone the moral.

john, so am i ( ...getting fed up with change for change's sake from the ORG.) please note that i am attempting to get anything changed, only stating my own opinion. i have made absolutely no attempts to change this or even to introduce the idea of changing it.

in my dreamworld, i would make it 50 for pros at top events and keep 40-49 protection as an option for Am players at B-ish and below... or something like that. i am pretty good at keeping my dreamworld seperate from reality, so dont worry that i will lead a charge to change masters age.

the senior PGA tour also pays all competitors who finish the event.

its like a "congrats on not dying" bonus.



Or a "thanks for not causing us to incur costs to drag your carcass off the course" bonus! :)

what age does ball golf starts at (for the senior/masters tour)?



Who cares? Besides, I know you're not really asking. Why waste my and your time? Been there done that, bored with the exercise.

you dont read much...Or fail to read deeper. When the orange hats move over to the blue area, they check the size of there plates(talent) vs. that of blues. Amount of food and or quality of food varies. Vitamins= am. merch. not food(money) but close.

Tennis and ball golf have a seniors circuit, as do many other sports.



um, you introduced the topic, tim. and yes it is a real question and i am really asking. if nothing i can say can receive a fair audience from you, then i respectively request you place me on ignore.

Tennis and ball golf have a seniors circuit, as do many other sports.



um, you introduced the topic, tim. and yes it is a real question and i am really asking. if nothing i can say can receive a fair audience from you, then i respectively request you place me on ignore.



But not when you ask questions for which you already know the answer, That is not requesting fair audience, that is trying to steer the discussion. The difference is obvious.

The senior golf tour starts at 50.

...and tennis is 35. Yipee.

I just don't find it fair that added cash is put in a place where only a few people who fit the requirements can play.

tim, please forgive me for not knowing something and asking for information. the rest is your conjecture, which you are certainly free to make.

Pat, you've quoted or made reference to seniors ball golf being 50 before. Or at least been involved in prior discussion threads where it has come up.

no... that was sandalman... this is meiyouandshi

;)

I just don't find it fair that added cash is put in a place where only a few people who fit the requirements can play.



Unless the sponsor specifies it, I agree that the majority of added cash should be going to Open, with exception to putting some towards Pro Women to help boost their cause. I think the majority of added cash is currently going to Open.

But if the maker of 'We-Willy-Helper' specifies that their $1000 sponsorship goes to Grand Masters or older, who would turn it down?

I also feel that this should be the TDs perogative, although best conveyed before the tournament so everyone can make an informed decision.

Maybe a better example would be Orange and Blue hats wanting to have beer and the size of the kegs and mugs. You need food to live, you don't need beer or disc golf*.


*(I realize some people THINK beer is a necessity, much the same as disc golf.)

I just don't find it fair that added cash is put in a place where only a few people who fit the requirements can play.



you said last page it wasn't about that.

imo it is the td's prerogative to place added cash where he/she sees fit. at my events i add 2 portions for every open player to one for each age-protected player and some inconsistent even higher percentage to the ladies. for the ORG to tell me to do otherwise with funds i am responsible for raising would be unacceptable imnsho.

How added cash gets distributed is (thankfully) a decision left to the TD - except in the case of NT events.

As a TD, as a funds-raiser, and as a player, I would strongly resent any outside entity dictating how to distribute added cash...but this doesn't really seem to be a discussion about distribution of added cash does it?

It seems more like a very poetic statement arguing against players who swing between playing in age protected divisions and Open fields.

So is your beef against the PDGA for allowing players to swing between divisions, or is it against the players who choose to do so?

The PDGA....I never get mad at people for taking advantage of the system. I probably would if I could. I just think its unfair that the choice be so available.

if i donated funds i probably would request the funds go to every body except the pros.
this comes from my skill level of play, my age(41) and the desire to entice newer less skilled players to continue competing until they can compete at the pro level.
maybe when my skill level changes for the better my attitude or opinion may change also.
i love to see the top competitors at the pro level play and compete and recognize that my current opinion may slow the growth of disc golf at the top, but i greatly enjoy watching less skilled players improve also.
i started disc golf at age 38 and moved from novice level after my first title in that division. then i played a few intermidiate tournys until i was allowed to play masters, by age,even though my rating alowwed longer life in the intermidiate division because i believed i could learn more from the aging players who possibly are on the way back down the ladder of success.

when I donate money, I specifically specify I would like my money to go into the open purse.

If one adds *cash* to a tournament with no designation, then that *cash* can only go to ones who can receive *cash*, i.e., Pro Divisions.

If someone donated merchandise to a tournament, and said merchandise is not included in a player's package, then said merchandise should go only to ones who receive merchandise, i.e., "amateur" divisions.

If someone adds cash with the designation that it should go toward an amateur purse, then the TD can establish a fair value of merchandise, and add that merchandise to the amateur purse. (Aside - what if the TD doesn't carry much merchandise and this is a late donation; would the Ams mind if the TD had to pay retail to get more discs to put in the Am purse?)

If someone adds merchandise with the designation that it goes to the Pro division purse, it is not so easily converted. I haven't seen many tournaments with a Pro payout of cash plus merchandise. I'm sure it happens, but it is not the norm.

The PDGA....I never get mad at people for taking advantage of the system. I probably would if I could. I just think its unfair that the choice be so available.



I see then...

Here is the dilemma with mandating that a player eligible for age protected divisions play in one: A sanctioned tournament then will HAVE to offer it - even for divisions of only one. The PDGA can't force someone to play up (by making them play Open.) I know that it has often happened before where a division (usually Grandmaster) doesn't have the required 4 players, so the Grandmaster guys are offered to play in Masters or Open, but at their choice. If the PDGA tells someone that they have to play in Masters (because they've chosen to play in it once) then it has to be mandated that Masters is offered at every tournament.

There probably aren't very many people that are capable of flip-flopping back and forth and be competitive in either division. I'd hate to see such a policy implemented because it would probably do more to hurt participation in tournament events, than it would help solve an infrequent problem that only a few are capable of exploiting.

There probably aren't very many people that are capable of flip-flopping back and forth and be competitive in either division. I'd hate to see such a policy implemented because it would probably do more to hurt participation in tournament events, than it would help solve an infrequent problem that only a few are capable of exploiting.



CORRECT!!! it will remain so until we have developed to the point where there are separate events for masters and open players.

While I was in St. Louis, I got to expirience the whole choice issue a LOT, and boy was it annoying to see the winner of Masters get more of the added cash because 5-8 players chose not to play Open b/c a few 1000 rated locals came out.

Had to argue with one gent that "Open Pro Masters" was ridiculously contradictive and did not mean he was elgible for match play qualification beacase it was for the Open division only.

Wow, PP plays his first event as a Master {along with 7 other players} and now someone is complaining? As for him acessing the field before hand, he signed up well in advance and had no way of knowing who was going to be there other than checking online.

I would also like to add that as a past TD of a super tour... That most of the added money comes from the over 40 crowd. Not all but a good chunk. Chris gave a way a free 2 night stay in Daytona as well as discs bags.....

I have for years sponsored in excess of 1k a year to various events and now that I will be playing masters I will ask that the funds go to that divison.

As someone over 40 who has had both shoulders repaired and countless other injuries. I have no problem with added cash being divided. By the way the TD was playing masters and like I said did most of the fundraising, he has every right to put it where he sees fit.

If someone wants more food, get your butt out and hunt and gather some extra and it will not be a problem! To say options are a bad thing is just foolish. Had he played open he would have only taken food from the open players.

just my 2 cents.
Bob

Now you're just assuming Bob, and you you know what assuming does. I have been playing discgolf on a competitive level for a very long time. This has nothing to do with Savannah, as this was Pats first event as a master. I don not know yet if he will flip flop when the grass is greener. I also know, that with age comes respect and everyone deserves it. I also realize that well over 50% of added cash is raised and donated by 40+ aged people.
Its just a story. Is it not funny to read about it in another perspective.

--------------------------------------Protection Plate----------------------------------

A young man had finally decided to move away from his families home. He had packed his only possession, a little dinner plate, and left without a word. After many days of wandering, he began to starve. Suddenly, his nose caught fire with the smell of food. He ran and ran until he found himself in a bazaar of sorts. People were everywhere. His hunger panged in his gut.
"Free food for the guys with the orange hats," the bearded man yelled into the crowd.
"Where can i get an Orange hat," asked the young man nervously.
"Oh, you cant have one; Sorry sir, no CHANCE at this food, now move along."
The younger man sulked at this let down. Why couldn't he sit down and eat the bountiful meal with the older bearded gentlemen. Our friend had nearly given up hope, and was about to leave, when from another side of the crowded fairground he heard a burley voice exclaim. "Free food for the guys with Blue hats," and again, "People with Blue hats, step right up." Our friend made his way through the crowd. He saw the man with the growling burley voice, and behind him, well, food for miles. "Can I help you," bellowed the man.
"Oh, well, hello sir, I am very hungry, where can i get a Blue hat?"
"All you have to do is ask my friend. No codes or restrictions here. "
"WOW, thats great. You mean they have all this food and i can just ask for a Blue hat and be part of it?"
"Thats right! We let anyone in to our feast."
The young mans face swiveled from side to side as he eyed through the crowd. Everything was wonderful, and then, suddenly he was stumped by what he saw. There were men with orange hats eating at the tables. Well, they had on Blue hats, but also orange ones!!! "Sir," the young shouted, "those men have on orange hats!!!"
"Oh thats OK my little friend," boomed the man, " We let all people who wish join us here." The Large man spread his arms wide to demonstrate that he meant the whole crowd. The younger man looked confused. "But sir, There is another area on the other side of the fairground, where..." he paused, " where the orange hats are eating!" Suddenly, a loud grumble came from the large man, it was followed by a deep, exhaustive laugh. It was so loud that many a person turned his head to see what was so funny. When he finished laughing, the large man took a deep breath " why young man, you must be new here," the young man nodded, "Well, it could mean many things. Maybe there are not a lot of orange hats around today, and these gentlemen didn't want to eat alone, or with just a small crowd," said the large man. As the young man listened he curiously eyed all the people eating, and nodded his head. "But thats not all," the large man said, "Maybe the Orange hats came and saw that the Blue hats in here had smaller plates. You see," the large man continued, and bent over to console the confused young man, "The Blue hats always have better food, but somedays, only blue hats with small plates show up. When an Orange hat sees that he has a chance at better food, AND with a bigger plate.... well my boy," he said " do you see where Im going?" The young man looked down at his shoes. After a moment he looked up. "But, how come they can eat here and when they see that it benefits them, or when they are just a few, but...... but, they wont let anyone else into their area?" At this, the large man pursed his lips and began to knuckle his forehead. "Well son, " said the large man, " I guess thats just the way it is. Some people have choices, they are free to move about the the fairground.... kind of like an all access pass." The young man quickly stammered in, "what about blue hats?" The large man shook his head and frowned. "The Blue hats have it rough here. Usually, there a lot of them around. Sometimes there are quite a few with large, gigantic plates. On these days, there just isn't enough food...." "but sir" the young man interrupted, " Where else can the blue hats go to get food?" The Large man took another deep breath, " its very difficult.. you see, once a blue had has eaten in the blue tent, he cant eat anywhere else, well, at least not for a long time. The Orange hats are free to go where the food is better, or the plates are smaller, but the Blue hat cannot. It is just the way it is."
The young mans eyes began to tear up and he said, "but i just got here, and i have only this tiny, tiny, plate to eat with. Where can I go?
"Well, my boy," said the Large man, "you can go into the Blue tent, but there is a chance your small plate wont get any food. But, you can also go where all the other very small plates go." The young mans eyes lit up with hope. "where is that, please tell me, Im so hungry"... "Well," The large man said, " you can go to a vender and he will give you vitamin pills. They are like food, but without the familiar smell, and texture."
He could not take anymore. It was all so confusing. How come some people could go where ever they wanted, and some were could not. The young man began to walk away, shoulders slumped. Behind him he heard words echoing from the large mans chest and mouth. "Be careful my boy, for one day, you will want real food and not those vitamin pills any longer. Make sure you are ready for real food. Bring a large plate back with you, because once you've tasted the Blue hats food, and receive your own blue hat.... you're stuck with them. Remember, a big plate...!"
-sjur-

is that a revised version or you just re-posting?

ah yes, that could be true :oI guees it was the timing :cool:

Respect, great word but, these days it has to be earned as plenty are reaching for a plate even thou they have done nothing to deserve one. Some even get a plate with food even after blantly hiding anothers disc, pulling vines and the like. No respect there!

It was indeed and interesting read I better get to practicing as my plate could use some food.

see ya in atlanta!
Bob

I just received an e-mail from a friend. He signed the e-mail - Blue hat, Big plate.

When I'm giving away free food, I'm giving to whomever I want to.

When I'm giving away free food, I'm giving to whomever I want to.



...and those who don't like what i'm serving can go away or go hungry.

When I'm giving away free food, I'm giving to whomever I want to.

...and those who don't like what i'm serving can go away or go hungry.

Exactly. If they don't like what I'm giving away free, maybe they should get a job so they can buy what they want. Anybody complaining about who I give the stuff I'm giving away free is a whiner. Anyone who thinks he should have a say in who I give stuff to for free is either a communist or a fascist. It's my stuff. I'll give it to whoever the hades I want to.

such anger.

i'm not sure the hats bruce feeds are even in the same restaurant. his are probably vegetarians - skaZZirf is writing about meat eaters.

True meat eaters would go out and kill their own instead of wait for someone else to feed them. ;)

true dat... but at least some of our meat-eating Blue Hats share their larger feasts with other Blue Hats of similar plate size.

He who donates money in tournament sponsorship should surely get to say where it goes. In fact, one could even sponsor a tournament solely for a certain subset of players. But -- the PDGA isn't necessarily responsible for the definition of that subset. The person or organization giving the $$ defines the subset.

For example - one widely-respected tournament directed at a specific subset is USDGC. That tourney is directed at only the best, the cream of the crop, defined according to the tournament's rules for qualification.

Other examples of directing cash or financial support at a specific subset don't necessarily hang on PDGA divisions, either. We have, for example, given cash here in Charleston for "best finish by a local club member" -- regardless of division. Sorry, but those "from off" just didn't have a chance at that cash! Another respondent on this thread indicated that he wanted to give his money in a way that supported development of the sport, and one can imagine many different methods, which don't necessarily have anything to do with PDGA divisions.

My point being -- there's lots of creative ways to incentivize members of a group. Some of the best are aimed at specific subsets of that group (and the subset can be defined along PDGA division lines or in many other kinds of ways.)

i can see it now on tournament flyers...

$5,000 ADDED CASH!!! *




*only available to PDGA # 33777 ;)

When I'm giving away free food, I'm giving to whomever I want to.



...and those who don't like what i'm serving can go away or go hungry.


I like taters. Mmmm Hmmm

to everyone:

I like Vanessa's philosophy. The added cash goes where the donators want it to go. The local club and the TD are the key. They should decide how to allocate the added cash they raise, and whether to accept the terms of outside sponsors and donators.

The biggest problem is not how the added cash is allocated. It is that players may have no way of knowing until the payout sheets are posted. The PDGA removed tiered payout guidelines from the 2008 Tour Standards document, so this problem will be even greater this year. The only way to solve it is for TD's to indicate beforehand their attitude about the allocation of added cash.