Just curious if someone can give me the correct ruling on the following questions?

If a player pulls down vines which are both alive and attached to the ground during/ whilst someone is putting. What is the penalty?

Secondly, what is the penalty for someone covering up someones disc with pinestraw? The player was in another group and parked the hole. The individual in question was in the group on the next tee. After everyone teed off and started down the fairway he stayed back and snuck over and did it. The player and group looked for the discs thinking it was LOST. They did find it but......... The player that did it made light of it later to the affected player but it was a little late. Is there a retro active penalty?

worst part is the same player did both things as well as mis add the same guys score in the last round by 6 strokes :confused: costing him yet again second place and 75 dollars.

Thanks for the help.

I think you get to beat this guy up

If he was playing for money and let someone else have the final say in adding his score, he deserves whatever happened to his place in the final results.

Any course destruction issues would need to be taken up with the TD, with the possibility of DQ very real.

I think you get to beat this guy up



strike with knees.

If he was playing for money and let someone else have the final say in adding his score, he deserves whatever happened to his place in the final results.

Any course destruction issues would need to be taken up with the TD, with the possibility of DQ very real.



John, the TD was in the group but, said he was not allowed to make a call in his group? He said he would defer to the onsight TD I am not sure she was a pdga offical or even a member. Now what?

Interesting, but as a TD, I would have immediately stood up and told the offender that was the wrong thing to do, especially in front of the event Tournament Director. Then I would have a very brief meeting with the course Pro/designer (which is me at the course here), and inform the offender that he committed a very serious offense, and that he is Dq'ed from the event. If he wants to pursue further action, he is welcome to take it up with the Competition Director of the PDGA, but he is no longer welcome at the course for the duration of that event.

Officials are not allowed to make official calls on players in their division. However they should still make calls about rules violations as a player who is part of the group, but I believe TD's should make any calls on any player who is destructive to the course, regardless of division status.

What kind of TD wouldn't pipe up if someone is ripping up the course??!!

That is why I asked.

Well, it's been proven that many people won't make rules calls, primarily because they fear retribution. It doesn't bother me to make those kinds of calls, because I've put lots of sweat and hard work into making our course as nice as it is, and I don't like to see arrogant knotheads tear it up.

What kind of TD wouldn't pipe up if someone is ripping up the course??!!



well it happened :confused: the offender tried to say it was dead and that it was the last hole of the round. Which was not true as we played 12 of 19 holes and occured whilst someone was putting. 35 other people where going to play the hole with the change when the round continued. Even if he thought it was dead which it was not as he wrapped it up like a hose and put a log on top so it could not grow back up.

I agree and since he was called by someone that is a current certified TD/offical, it should have been an easy call. The rest of the group witnessed it but, let the TD handle it.

Was the offender someone who is responsible for the maintenance and upkeep of the course? Even then, he should have waited until after the event, or had the foresight to take care of the problem before the event.

no! but has done some design work in the past.

he is a 20 year player and plays in the masters divison. You would think that he would be aware of the rules but..............

Agreed that EVERYONE should ALWAYS double check their score.

I will ask, if you were there, why did you not call it? I would not let it fall on the hands of others.

Just curious if someone can give me the correct ruling on the following questions?

If a player pulls down vines which are both alive and attached to the ground during/ whilst someone is putting. What is the penalty?

Secondly, what is the penalty for someone covering up someones disc with pinestraw? The player was in another group and parked the hole. The individual in question was in the group on the next tee. After everyone teed off and started down the fairway he stayed back and snuck over and did it. The player and group looked for the discs thinking it was LOST. They did find it but......... The player that did it made light of it later to the affected player but it was a little late. Is there a retro active penalty?

worst part is the same player did both things as well as mis add the same guys score in the last round by 6 strokes :confused: costing him yet again second place and 75 dollars.

Thanks for the help.



Destruction of the course is covered in 803.05.F and 804.05.A.2.

I'm not sure why putting is mentioned, but if the vines were removed to clear a line to putt through, then a case can be made for cheating per 804.05.A.3. If the vines were moved to create a distraction to the putter, then the rules that apply are 801.01.B and maybe 804.05.A.1.

The penalty for obscuring another players disc is covered in 803.07.C, the penalty must be applied prior to the official end of the tournament per 804.03.G.1.

The penalty for a mis-added score card is specified in 804.03.G.2 and only applies to the player whose score was totaled incorrectly.

The TD is correct in that he can not act as an official to other players within his division, but the overall TD is the final word on all disqualifications. The TD should always call or second infractions that he is aware of as a player regardless of division.

There is no penalty for not calling a violation of the rules.

Mark, I agree everyone should check there scores. I think at this point since it was the same individual who's disc was hidden in the early round.{he may have just wanted to get away} That is his fault but he also should not be subjected to this in the Open ranks.

As for calling him, I only witnessed his actions in the early round. Hitting obstructions in front of him after a bad shot. I also saw him run back from covering the disc but was unaware of what he had done, as he just walked right back to the group. Had I known I may have said something since it would have been 2 strikes in the same round.

Duke, I only bring up that as his actions happend why someone else was putting. So, is that a dual violation?

I am not sure why the TD did not second the call or maybe he was not sure of his duties as acting TD. One could argue that he did second it by asking the assitant???? The pesron who made the inital call is a certified official and very up to date on the rules.

Thanks for the responses!

I think you get to beat this guy up



2nd

Wow.... Wow.... I'm speechless. Being new to disc golf ( 2 years ), I have never witnessed anything like this. However, being 42 years old, I couldn't imagine another Adult acting in this manner.

Ok... here are my thoughts on this. I don't know who this person is, nor do I care to know. It seems like over the past couple of years the PDGA and a majority of the disc golfers I have met are doing the best they can to promote the sport and change the way our sport and Disc Golfers are stereo typed. If the PDGA is serious about there efforts with creating a more polished image, the need to make a statement and make an example of this individual.

Just my two cents....

I'm quite surprised that no one has come the thread to defend the other side.

After having a killer drive on Hole 5 at Tom Tripplett Park during the Savannah Open, I could not find my disc. My group and I searched everywhere. Woods to the left and across the road, assuming a bad kick. We came to the conclusion it had come to rest in the casual water between the basket and the road. Everyone made their putts and we started the search. The casual water was deep, about two feet, muddy and nasty. We rolled up our sleeves and began searching. Mike even took off his shoes and socks and jumped in. The gross water came above his knees as he started stomping around for my disc, thank you so much Mike. I was glad it was our last hole. Our search came up empty for my disc. Wet and frustrated, we here Greg say hey its over here. My maroon disc was covered by a pile of wet, cold leaves. It blended in nicely with all the other leaves and sticks on the ground. Somebody had messed with my disc and covered it up. I removed the leaves and made my 6 foot putt. It would have sucked if I had to re-tee for a lost disc, since we could not see that the disc landed in bounds or out of bounds due to the contour of the hole.

Yeah, fun and games in a casual round or a basic handicap round, but in a big sanctioned tournament like the Savannah Open, not appropriate.

As for turning in the wrong score on the card: I take full responsibility. My scores, my card etc. My fault totally, I should have checked my card. I have played with the person tallying the final scores for many years and trusted his adding skills. My mistake, It will not happen again.

Note to self: ALWAYS DOUBLE CHECK YOUR CARD!!

A $75 lesson that I won't soon forget.

Mike and Bob, thanks for the cold one, much appreciated!

Chris

I'm quite surprised that no one has come the thread to defend the other side.



I must add that covering a disc can all be in good fun. At a Course Challenge in Cincinnati at Banklick this year (non-sanctioned), my buddy hit a blind spike hyzer skip ace with no chains on the basket right next to the tee pad I was at. I and another player covered his disc in leaves; but this was all in jest. Covering a disc that isn't parked or aced is a different story.

C. Any player who consciously alters the course of a thrown disc, or consciously moves or obscures another player’s thrown disc at rest or a marker disc, other than by the action of a competitively thrown disc or in the process of identification, shall receive two penalty throws, without a warning, if observed by any two players or an official.

Chris, no problem on the cold one!

as for oJT coming on and defending himself. I think he renewed at the event or he may just know that this is UNacceptable behavior.

I did see him run over there but, never imagined anyone would do such a thing in a event. My thoughts where he must have dropped something like his mini, towel,discs......

I do not think Chris or anyone knew wtf happened until the next round when the asked him. At first he said he did not do it but, after Mikey's sensed he was not telling the truth he asked oJT again. At that point he said he had done it.

He should have been stroked on the spot and who knows, he may have curbed his ways. But unchecked, he later that round pulled the vines from the tree, wound them up on the ground and put a rather large log to keep them from growing back up. The log and pile where there the rest of the event.


Ryhno, I try my best during tourney play to act 100% professional during a round. I also try and make sure that everyone does this especially when the press and 75-100 spectators where roaming the park.

WE must all keep the spirit off the game intact and should never be ashamed to call ones self when we/I make a mistake. It also sickend me to watch this individual walk up and take cash which he did not deserve by his action thruout the weekend!

One more question would be is it ever to late to admit a mistake????? Or give back undeserved winnings????

Thanks for the responses!

The question now is:

Can a player be stroked after the fact, for admitting to a flagrant rule violation?

No.

Once the prizes are awarded the tournament is considered over. There is nothing you can do after that. I do think that someone, many someones, should talk to this person though. The vine thing, that is bad & people should know better during an event. The hiding of a disc is unacceptable. If I were the TD, I would have some VERY harsh words for him.

Not really. I'm not saying that they should, but disciplinary action could be taken by the PDGA.

Not really. I'm not saying that they should, but disciplinary action could be taken by the PDGA.



mmmmmmmmmmm!!!!

So there is no way to penalize someone after there admisson of guilt? Although this individual would probally change his strory but, 5 people heard him admit it as well as myself.
Lying should also be in the rule book somewhere :confused:
It took some coaxing to get him to admit it as he appeared to know he was wrong.

Can anyone confirm this? If facts come to light after an event is there no penalty?

As for the PDGA getting invovled, that maybe a good option. I did tell this player that I would be looking for the correct answer and that I would do whatever was needed to prevent this from happening again.

Bob

Once the event is over, it is OVER.

I have contacted the Tour Manager about this issue for a different reason.

After seeing some of the names of the players of your division, it strikes me as really odd that no violations were called. Is JT some kind of counter-culture hero in your area? I've noticed over the years I've been playing that many times whomever is the leader of the counter-culture movement (the party crowd) won't get called on violations because others want to keep that player around because of the "party favors" he provides. I don't know if this is the case where you play, but I've seen it many, many times. Very sad for PROFESSIONAL players. :(

I was there for the vine pulling and the covered disc incident. As for no one in the group taking a stance on the vine pulling, that was not the case. While Mike was putting, the perp was behind him pulling down a vine. Mike stopped, asked the perp what he was doing, and continued to putt. After he putted, the perp pulled down the vine completely at which point Mike went off and asked the TD (playing in our group) if he was going to let him get away with that. The TD said he could not make a call in his group, but would take it up with the others at tourney central. I was slack jawed at what just happened knowing that the perp was a seasoned player and should have known better. Myself, the TD, and the perp discussed this matter on the way back to tourney central. The perp said that the round was over and it was okay to remove the vine. I told him that we hadn't putted out yet and the round WASN'T over. The vine was pulled down intentionally as mentioned in the rules and not by accident. The perp did receive a two stroke penalty.

As for the covered disc incident, Chris threw a great drive and from the tee I was convinced that it was parked. When we topped the crest over the basket, the disc was nowhere to be seen and everyone expected the worse, that it was in the sludge moat. As mentioned, the others were trudging through the sludge to find the disc, but I had just had a manicure so I avoided that and looked for other possibilities. My gut instinct was correct. It was a drop in from the basket covered up. It wasn't until after the tourney that I knew WHO had covered it up, but I repeatedly said that the disc was purposely covered after that round.

As for the perp, I honestly enjoyed playing the round with him and didn't sense any malicious intent towards anyone else in our division. But, then again, I am an easy going person and generally have a good time whenever.

Oh, BTW, great to see you Bob and I'm sorry this happened to Chris and Mikey who were both fun to play with.

Two strokes is not an available penalty for willful destruction of plant life on the course. Disqualification appears to be mandated by 804.05A(2). Two strokes is the penalty for a violation of 803.07C.

Mike I tend to agree with you on that one!

John, leader not hardly. Once a critic always a critic and most leaders try and set a good example. If it was only one wrong doing that would have been different. but three things???
1. destruction of the course
2. hiding someone elses disc[ lying about doing it]
3. misadding scorecard {only 1 person whom happened to be beating him???] the other 4 he got right [funny he was beating them]


Grease, I enjoyed it as well and I hope to see you in Atlanta for the super tour.

Two strokes is not an available penalty for willful destruction of plant life on the course. Disqualification appears to be mandated by 804.05A(2). Two strokes is the penalty for a violation of 803.07C.



Mike,

He was given 2 strokes for a violation of 803.05 3(F),which also allows for DQ, but the TD did not wish to do so.

Keith

Two strokes is not an available penalty for willful destruction of plant life on the course. Disqualification appears to be mandated by 804.05A(2). Two strokes is the penalty for a violation of 803.07C.



Mike,

He was given 2 strokes for a violation of 803.05 3(F),which also allows for DQ, but the TD did not wish to do so.

Keith



Interesting. 803.05F mandates the two strokes and allows the DQ per 804.05A(2). However, 804.05A(2) mandates the DQ.

So you have two contradictory rules in the book to cover this. How does one decide which one to use? Does it depend solely on whether you like the player or not?

Frankly, I think 804.05A(2) is the rule to use in this case because it says "abuse of plant life". 803.05F just says "purposely damages anything on the course" which could be, well, anything. The rules would seem to view abuse of plant life as more egregious and thus worthy of a DQ.

You, I, and about 7 others agree with that, but we weren't the TD of the event, and he made the decision to handle it that way.
I don't think it had anything to do with liking or not liking anyone.
Most of the discussion was for the DQ though.

Certainly within the TD's discretion to rule that way under the current rules.

I wasn't accusing anyone of favouritism (liking or not liking), just pointing out that the two rules allow for it.

This is an example of where the rules provide for an inconsistent application of penalties for the same offense. By changing the word "may" to "shall" the problem is rectified. However, I think this sport as a whole would rather have the two choices available than be required to assess one consistent penalty. Nonetheless, having those two choices, and the inherent inconsistency, is part of what keeps this sport from moving forward.

Mike, I completely agree. To much gray in those two rules.

Keith, you keep saying the TD made the call but, I thought he asked the female assitant as he felt he could not make an in group call. Just the fact it took until the next day to inform the players seems a bit odd and allowed for hours of discussion.

By the way I enjoyed playing with you even if WE where both off a bit. I hope to see you in Atlanta in April!.
Bob

He made the EVENTUAL call, I didn't say he made the only call. :D

He made the EVENTUAL call, I didn't say he made the only call. :D



WORD!

He made the EVENTUAL call, I didn't say he made the only call. :D



...or the RIGHT call!

He made the EVENTUAL call, I didn't say he made the only call. :D



...or the RIGHT call!


that is debateable

True, but only because of the two rules options. Fix the rule and there will be no debate because there will only be one remedy.

I thought 804.05 did say "shall" .....

I thought 804.05 did say "shall" .....



804.05 does say "shall" for the DQ, but 803.05F says "shall" for the two strokes and "may" for the DQ. Both address course damage so if you don't want to DQ someone, you can ignore 804 and use 803.

i would disagree that both rules are applicable since destruction of plant life is SPECIFIED in one.

Frankly, I think 804.05A(2) is the rule to use in this case because it says "abuse of plant life". 803.05F just says "purposely damages anything on the course" which could be, well, anything. The rules would seem to view abuse of plant life as more egregious and thus worthy of a DQ.



Exactly my thoughts, John, but I think we're in the minority.

Grabbing a clump of grass and tossing it to check the wind is "willful destruction of plant life." Slippery slope.

Yes, it is. I suppose grass clippings would be okay.

If this is going to be the accepted/allowed practice, it sounds like another exception that should be noted in the rules, like the artifical devices clarification made a few years back.

Frankly, I don't like to see people yanking up the grass on my courses.

Grabbing a clump of grass and tossing it to check the wind is "willful destruction of plant life." Slippery slope.



wow Chuck! I just fell and hit my head :DMay I suggest to those that do that, grab a handfull of dead leaves, pinestraw....
and get it from behind the teepad. :eek:

Although I am not sure a small pinch of grass and something growing up from the ground and over trees could be on the same level. I think the difference being that the attached vines could not be thrown thru. A small pinch of grass will have no effect on the outcome of a shot.

Still a good point!