From the new technical standards:

(7) have a smooth surface on the bottom part of the rim; that is, a surface free of any irregularities such as protrusions or depressions. When placed on a flat surface, the rim must have no discernible gaps between itself and the surface on which it is resting.


Does this effectively criminalize dimple technology? This:
http://www.QuestAT.com/images/graphics/doubled1.jpg
certainly has irregularities, protrusions, & depressions on the bottom part of the rim.

Or am I reading something wrong?

The inner edge of the rim would touch the surface and it has no dimples. So wouldn't it pass the test?

I'm not sure, the guideline is so poorly worded as to seem to disallow (in my reading) any texture on the entire surface of the rim.

it passes the test.

"When placed on a flat surface, the rim must have no discernible gaps between itself and the surface on which it is resting." - no problem there at all. the first sentence only addresses the very bottom of the rim - the part that contacts the flat surface during testing. its not talking about the lower side of the leading edge. put the disc on a flat surface and see if you can see under it. if no, it passes. according to the TSC, all dimple discs currently pass.

So "rim" means only the edge of the wing on which a disc would rest on a flat surface, and not the entire wing itself?

not sure about taht, but the first sentence says "bottom part of rim", not "entire rim surface".. at least thats how i understand it was meant.

It sounds like it comes down to defining the "rim." On a bicycle, the rim is the metal ring that has the spokes attached to it; yet a rim on a car could be construed as the entire wheel minus the rubber tire. I'm not sure how disc golf would define it.

God forbid the PDGA would put out any information so ambiguous.

Pat has it right,
The rule is about the part of the discs sits on a table.
if there are gaps caused by any protrusions or indentions than it would not pass.
All of Gateway's DT discs stop the dimples well before the bottom of the rim, so we are good to go!

The question or controversy that now arises would be, if you take a chunk out of the bottom of the discs it would now be an illegal disc?. I would say according to the rule yes!

What I find strange about the new rules is the wording changing "discs used for play" to "discs manufactured for play".

I keep repeating this over and over and over.
I think I might need a clarification on this wording from a lawyer.
any thoughts? :confused: :confused:

Well I thought I nailed it in my first post.

As a manufacturer it must pass in my opinion. If I knock a chunck out throwing it I am sure a manufacturer would want to require me to replace it but I call BS. A disc that has been punctured by a mesquite thorn by rule is illegle but I would say flies no different. After reading and rereading David McCormack's above post I will never throw Gateway as it appears to me he would require a disc damaged by play to be ruled illegal.

If I am reading you wrong Mr. McCormack just let me know.

Yes,,,, your reading my most wrong and I can tell you do not know me or have much experience throwing Gateway.
We try to make discs that last a longtime.
In fact we would rather sell new players discs, than new discs to the same old players over and over again.
I think you might have the wrong company if you think I am trying to get in the disc golfers pocket more than necessary!


on the chunk out of the discs:
I was making a point about the rules. ( I guess I forgot the smiley face or wink)
The point of the post was not to get players to buy more discs, It hadn't even entered my mind, it was to point out the fact that we do not have rules to enforce the rules ( new or old).
From what I hear the discs used in play will never be tested anyway, only those sent to the pdga or randomly pulled off of shelves.

Personally I want to help develop rules that enforce the rules. This is to make sure all players are playing by the same set of rules.
I have sent long, really long unanswered emails to the pdga board on this matter and may eventually post them here!

Pros want to play for big money one day, but no one has the foresight to make rules or measuring devices that can check a players discs at an event????


I'll give a better correlation about the discs and their legality:
I feel this scenario needs to be addressed in the rules;
Lets say you have a DX/S style disc that's rim depth is right on 5%. If you use it for a while it could easily wind up to be outside of the rule as it wears down to only 4% rim depth.

Is this disc now illegal?
Maybe the player used it that much, maybe they factored down the rim, maybe its from a version that was retooled after initial submission, maybe its a different polymer made from the same mold.
All 4 discs will not pass the tech standards if checked and IMO are illegal, but who can tell how they got that way.
whos ever going to check them unless they are pulled off a shelf???

Who are the new tech standard rules actually made for if its not the players that are actually using them in events?

My next question is how will they or any rules on discs used in play ever be enforced if they are never checked?

In the very near future, we will begin to see many new companies and many new discs that are produced that will fall outside of the pdga tech standards.
Some of these discs may wind up flying farther or be more controllable than those that can be used in pdga events.
Players may use them unknowingly!!!
Some discs will be noticeably different while others may have a custom stamp on them and much harder to tell.

what if one player wants another players disc checked?
do we have a rule for that?
If one players discs get checked what about all the other players?

I have suggested that templates be made and sent to TD's in order to test discs at events, but no one seems to think its that important,,,, but me!
I could and should just let it die off, but feel something really bad is going to happen to our sport if we don't make rules to enforce rules.

I want to start a poll soon, but will take a quick survey here to hear discussion before I do here:

Who is ultimately responsible for an illegal disc used in play.
The manufacturer or the player that uses the disc?

It appears from the document, that the intended audience of the tech standards document is manufacturers. By that reasoning, if the rim of the disc no longer sits flat on the table from hitting one too many trees, it should still be eligible for use.

One thing to add is that although the technical standards document is updated, it refers to manufacturing of discs. The PDGA rules refer to what is legal for use in competition. In this manner any disc that meets the old standards and has been PDGA approved is eligible for use. Any new discs are going to need to meet a more stringent set of standards to become PDGA approved.

I think the PDGA rules document should lessen the criteria for discs used to something simple (and easily verified) like a) PDGA approved, b) not beyond the weight limit as specified in the approved disc list, c) not cracked, perforated, and d) be essentially as produced. Things like rim configuration, etc should be left in just the Tech Standards document for manufacturing.

It says bottom part of the rim. Not the top. Seems clear to me. KISS.

I have sent long, really long unanswered emails to the pdga board on this matter and may eventually post them here!



Dave, Please do. I do not see why you shouldn't if you have not received a response through the proper channels, and I know you used the proper channels as you are a manufacturer, grower of the sport, and overall level headed guy.


Pros want to play for big money one day, but no one has the foresight to make rules or measuring devices that can check a players discs at an event????



PGA Players have their clubs, balls, heck even their SHOES inspected before play. Just because your bee has this and that stamp doesnt mean that its truly this and that disc. I dont play tourneys with it as my morals get the best of me, but, I do have one modified disc in my bag right now, never tell you what it is, but no one knows that its not what it says it is. With that said, I dont see why we do not test for post-production mods, variations, etc. (as these ARE illegal folks)...



My next question is how will they or any rules on discs used in play ever be enforced if they are never checked?



good question.



I have suggested that templates be made and sent to TD's in order to test discs at events, but no one seems to think its that important,,,, but me!
I could and should just let it die off, but feel something really bad is going to happen to our sport if we don't make rules to enforce rules.



please dont let it die Dave.

I'm 100% with ya, Dave. But, considering that even something as simple to measure as weight is nearly 100% unenforced (and even denigrated by many wrong-thinking posters here as unworthy of enforcement), enforcement of any other, less-easily measured equipment rules is, unfortunately, extremely unlikely.

IMHO, it is a tournament player's responsibility that every piece of equipment he/she carries is legal to the letter of the law, and that it is every PDGA TD's responsibility to have at his disposal the necessary device(s) to unambiguously decide the legality of a piece of equipment challenged by a player or official.

If only the rules made it crystal clear what was legal or illegal . . .

What I find strange about the new rules is the wording changing "discs used for play" to "discs manufactured for play".

I think "discs manufactured for play" = new disc and/or manufacturers are required to follow this rule
"discs used for play" = each player's own discs/ used discs

The old rules allow for irregularities caused by play, just not holes in the flight plate.

Sorry Dave- I posted this to before reading the rest of the posts.

Please continue

I bought a scale to allow players at the 2008 Beaver State Fling to voluntarily weight their discs. I personally would like to see a manditory weigh in for discs used by Pro's at NT events as a start. I believe the PDGA could buy the scales and have them travel with the PDGA official assigned to the NT events.

Yes the scale I purchased is accurate and has a resolution of a tenth of a gram, no it was not expensive and yes it came with a calibrated 100 gram mass. I have weighed many discs out of peoples bags as well as from manufactures and I would say there has been a significant amount to warrant checking at high caliber events.

What goes on at the Japan Open? Are all discs weighed in before competition?

There is a really simple way to enforce and check weights accurately.
The first thing I would do is make the max weight for all discs 180 grams.
A very simple balance scale could be made with 180 grams of weight on one side. If necessary we could make the weight 175 grams and send out a 5 gram weight for the 180 gram discs.
If your discs tips the scale over the center mark, than it is too heavy. Its really rather simple, not that expensive and if we care about the wieght rule, well worth the money.

I have proposed that all monies that come in from new disc approvals be earmarked and spent on equipment like these simple scales, gauges and templates.

This proposal has never gotten a response,,,, as of yet.
It just seems to make sense to me, but hey ,I'm just one guy who thinks if your are going to make a rule than you should enforce it or it least have a way to!

The only tech standard that would be difficult to test is the flex.
After a lot of thinking and some limited testing I came to the conclusion that 30% of the time our pdga events are played in weather below 50 degrees.
When the temperature is below 50 degrees most DX, D or S plastic will barely flex, unless its a SS style puuter.
Most drivers in high end plastics would not pass the flex rule at 50 degrees either.
At 40 degrees Only ss putters and drivers made in FLX or our Hi flex will still pass the flexibility test.
at 30 degrees alomst no discs will flex under 27 lbs of pressure!

my point is we have a flex rule and about 30 % of the time most shots on the course are thrown with discs that do not pass the flex standard.
whats the point of the rule is it only applies 70% of the time??

Maybe 30% is too high but even if its 20%, I think the point is the same.
We have a rule that only applies to discs when it is warm or warmer.

For thos ethat want to discuss this, Please respond on the new thread!

post replaies on new thread titled "does anyone care"?
http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=778738&an=0&page=0#Post7 78738

I've brought up the disc weight issue here a number of times, most replies seem to suggest that a gram or two isn't enough to do anything about.

So I guess it's like the rest of the rules, most aren't enforced. I call them as I see them. I might have to just start carrying a digital scale around with me. Then when I find some overweight discs, and I bring it up to the TD, what do they do? I'm guessing most would ridicule me for creating this situation, not the player breaking the rules.

i've talked to rules committee members, and it's like pulling teeth to get a straight rules call. It really is unbelievable.

DROT is a whole other issue! Don't have time to get into that one.

Sweet. I have saved hundreds by throwing a Double D on water holes. As long as there's enough wind to float it back to shore eventually.