scottcwhite
Nov 15 2007, 02:34 PM
Has anyone started weight training and seen their accuracy diminished? Or is it unrelated.. A friend told me that building muscle at first actually tears your muscle tissue down and you lose muscle memory and accuracy in disc golf. Any tips for both building muscle and maintaining good muscle memory?

bcary93
Nov 15 2007, 07:08 PM
The term "muscle memory" is effective imagery but it's not literally the muscle remembering things. Any kind of physical training calls on muscles to perform a task on instruction of the brain. Muscle memory is the process of the muscles adapting and becoming more efficient at the repeated task while the brain learns what signals to send to the muscles to get them to do what it wants.

If you are doing intense weight training there may be some lingering fatigue that impacts your throwing, but it's like riding a bike, you won't forget how to throw a disc just because you also learn how to throw a shot-putt.


Has anyone started weight training and seen their accuracy diminished? Or is it unrelated.. A friend told me that building muscle at first actually tears your muscle tissue down and you lose muscle memory and accuracy in disc golf. Any tips for both building muscle and maintaining good muscle memory?

kjellispv
Nov 15 2007, 08:36 PM
Has anyone started weight training and seen their accuracy diminished? Or is it unrelated.. A friend told me that building muscle at first actually tears your muscle tissue down and you lose muscle memory and accuracy in disc golf. Any tips for both building muscle and maintaining good muscle memory?



First off whoever told you that is not very smart. Second of all muscle memory has more to do with the nervous system than the the muscular system. yes if you dont weight train and you start most likely you will be sore and it will affect all motor skills. Third there are alot of myths about weight training, and not to be a jerk but alot of frolfers have no idea what they are talking about. when you lift and get micro tears in your muscles the after affect may be hypertrophy which basically is building muscle size because of the cells becoming larger. Now becoming "bigger" or body building doesnt really have a place in most sports, except maybe football. if you gain a large amount of muscle mass your range of movement will be affected. you can become stronger and more powerful without bulking up. The key is to keep the reps low and intensity high. if your looking for improvement for distance you want to do explosive activities such as medballs, hang cleans, snatches etc... and if you are looking for help with accuracy slow moving exercizes like cables etc will work your stabilizers which is were control comes from. muscle size isnt directly related with strength, it is related to "absolute strength"... the reason you can become stronger without gaining alot more extra mass is due to the overload principle were your body simply recruits more motor neurons which control muscle fibers.

pdiddy71
Nov 15 2007, 10:52 PM
i wouldn't think you would really need to do any heavy weight workouts. with the discs between 5 and 7 ounces, good repetition with 3 or 5 lb weights could work. i did a lot of physical training when i was in the military, so i have a good muscular build. i like to use the lighter weights to help increase endurance.

scottcwhite
Nov 16 2007, 11:33 AM
Thanks for the feedback guys.

My goal is to build strength, not necessarily muscle. I'm planning on doing lots of dumbell stuff to build strength in the hands/forearms. Also cable exercises to simulate throwing motion.

What are some good medicine ball workouts? I do like the old-school type workouts more..


key is to keep the reps low and intensity high.



I don't necessarily agree with this.. I thought the body-builders did this to BUILD muscle. Low reps, high weight builds muscle and low weight high reps is better to tone muscle. Right?

lien83
Nov 16 2007, 11:45 AM
correct...for disc golf never do high weight low rep workouts...that just limits your range of motion and flexibility.

abee1010
Nov 16 2007, 12:27 PM
I think the reason why working out hard can be percieved as negativelly effecting muscle memory is because it causes a drastic change in one of the parameters involved in the putting motion, your strength. The term muscle memory is associtated with consistancy so perhaps it would be more accurate to state that heavy lifting can negativelly affect your consistancy because your body (and mind) are trying to adjust for the changes in your muscles.

Personally I discontinued heavy lifting when I became serious at disc golf because it was clear that the 2 could not co-exist. There have been a couple of attempts to get back into working out and lift lighter weight, but I found that I had no consistancy, especially the day or 2 after the workout when my muscles are recovering. These are the situations where your muscle memory works against you due to working out because your muscles are in a different state than they were when you put in all of your practice.

Since muscle memory is more of a mental concept than a tangible concept I think there will be many varying opinions on how lifting weight does or does not effect it.

BTW Kyle, I am the "not very smart" person you were refering to when you were stating your opinions. IMHO, I disagre with your suggestion that using a low rep high weight strategy is ideal for disc golf. That is exactly the strategy that caused problems for me in disc golf...

kjellispv
Nov 16 2007, 04:12 PM
First off body builders do about 75% of their 1rpm and do HIGH Repititions and HIGH amount of sets. I was a polevaulter in college and my goal was to be as strong and fast as possible without gaining mass or losing flexibility. I am willing to bet that I have studied this subject far more than anyone on this board. Trust me when i tell you doing low reps and high weight will not cause you to gain alot of mass. I was 6'0 173lbs, and my bench was 325, squat 385, clean 250, and my vertical was around 39 inches.

cbear
Nov 16 2007, 04:13 PM
key is to keep the reps low and intensity high.



I don't necessarily agree with this.. I thought the body-builders did this to BUILD muscle. Low reps, high weight builds muscle and low weight high reps is better to tone muscle. Right?

[/QUOTE]

You won't put on serious size unless you really increase your calories and use supplements. Maybe a few steroids as well. Serioiusly though, if you are just going to work out, your body will be fine in a month or two regardless of low rep - high weight or high rep - low weight.

kjellispv
Nov 16 2007, 04:22 PM
I think the reason why working out hard can be percieved as negativelly effecting muscle memory is because it causes a drastic change in one of the parameters involved in the putting motion, your strength. The term muscle memory is associtated with consistancy so perhaps it would be more accurate to state that heavy lifting can negativelly affect your consistancy because your body (and mind) are trying to adjust for the changes in your muscles.

Personally I discontinued heavy lifting when I became serious at disc golf because it was clear that the 2 could not co-exist. There have been a couple of attempts to get back into working out and lift lighter weight, but I found that I had no consistancy, especially the day or 2 after the workout when my muscles are recovering. These are the situations where your muscle memory works against you due to working out because your muscles are in a different state than they were when you put in all of your practice.

Since muscle memory is more of a mental concept than a tangible concept I think there will be many varying opinions on how lifting weight does or does not effect it.

BTW Kyle, I am the "not very smart" person you were refering to when you were stating your opinions. IMHO, I disagre with your suggestion that using a low rep high weight strategy is ideal for disc golf. That is exactly the strategy that caused problems for me in disc golf...



Well i dont want to offend you but your reasons are very unscientific. Yes of course your not going to be throwing well when your body is recovering from a workout. But if you have ever had a weight training program you would know that the soreness and fatigue after a workout will eventually go away to a minimal due to lactic acid buffering (how your body deals with lactic acid which is what makes you feel sore) And you make as if lifting your gonna turn into ARNOLD and have no range of motion and this is why many women dont weight train because they share the same foolish ideas. You said that it affects putting? maybe the day after... but think of it from a basketball players point of view. They have to become strong and explosive without losing their "touch" when shooting the ball. Now because they become stronger does that affect their shot? = NO... Because your body adapats to everything. Dont fall into the "myths" of strength training, or judge of a non serious weight training program you put together yourself.

kjellispv
Nov 16 2007, 04:27 PM
i wouldn't think you would really need to do any heavy weight workouts. with the discs between 5 and 7 ounces, good repetition with 3 or 5 lb weights could work. i did a lot of physical training when i was in the military, so i have a good muscular build. i like to use the lighter weights to help increase endurance.



This is my last response today. But the weight of the disc is irrelevant. Thats like telling a javelin thrower he doesnt need a strenght program because the javelin only weighs 800grams. If you are not lifting atleast 55% of your 1 Rep max then you arent making any gains in strength or endurance. Your just simply burning calories. So lifting 3-5lb weights would be pointless you might as well just throw a frisbee since it is an exercise and as specific of training as you can get. Plus the military's training from what i know is not the greatest and alot of it is geared more torwards making you mentally tougher.

scottcwhite
Nov 16 2007, 04:47 PM
Dont fall into the "myths" of strength training, or judge of a non serious weight training program you put together yourself.



Exactly why I made my first post. I figured someone out in disc golf land has some expertise in this arena and could put to rest some of the common myths about strength training. So my plan is to train hard, not take any 'roids and don't expect to play good while recovering. One of the reasons I was buying into the muscle memory myth is that my tournament play lately has been just bad, so I was just hoping to be able to pin it on something..

chappyfade
Nov 16 2007, 07:05 PM
Dont fall into the "myths" of strength training, or judge of a non serious weight training program you put together yourself.



Exactly why I made my first post. I figured someone out in disc golf land has some expertise in this arena and could put to rest some of the common myths about strength training. So my plan is to train hard, not take any 'roids and don't expect to play good while recovering. One of the reasons I was buying into the muscle memory myth is that my tournament play lately has been just bad, so I was just hoping to be able to pin it on something..



Avery Jenkins is apparently a workout junkie. I know he's doing some sort of strength training. I know a program can be tailored to whatever you want to do...a lot of the PGA Tour players like Tiger work out relgiously. MY personal weight training currently consists of 12 oz. curls. :) I gotta do better.

Chap

circle_2
Nov 16 2007, 07:46 PM
MY personal weight training currently consists of 12 oz. curls. :) I gotta do better.

Chap



Chappy, you can more than triple your workout by switching to 40s...cuz ya know...a strong liver...is, well, a strong liver!

pterodactyl
Nov 17 2007, 10:14 AM
Myths continue to be perpetuated on this thread. Not one person here seems to be instituting a flexibility regimen. With some good stretching and/or yoga you can power as much weight as you want. The only problem I have with real heavy lifting is that I get injured when doing too much. Stretch it out, people.
KL, M.S., Sport Science, Penn State, baby!!

PS: 3-5 pound weights are also excellent to work-out with. You don't really want to work with anything heavier when you're strengthening your rotator cuffs.

johnrock
Nov 17 2007, 11:50 AM
If your gym has a lap pool, swimming is a very good workout. You can also tailor your workout to disc specific exercises using only the water as resistance. In-the-water stretching before and after can also target disc specific muscles. Try deep-water running along with lap swimming to build cardio-vascular results, and the low impact on joints helps the older crowd continue well into their golden years.

kjellispv
Nov 18 2007, 12:57 PM
Myths continue to be perpetuated on this thread. Not one person here seems to be instituting a flexibility regimen. With some good stretching and/or yoga you can power as much weight as you want. The only problem I have with real heavy lifting is that I get injured when doing too much. Stretch it out, people.


KL, M.S., Sport Science, Penn State, baby!!

PS: 3-5 pound weights are also excellent to work-out with. You don't really want to work with anything heavier when you're strengthening your rotator cuffs.



Stretching is good, it will help flexibility and range of motion, which especially important to do before and after lifting. But it will not help you get stronger, and infact overstretching is bad for you and can make you weaker. You should only stretch to the point where its comfortable and not hold it for more than 10 seconds. There is several types of stretching i would advise dynamic stretching. If you stretch to much you lose the elasticityin your muscles because your golgi tendon doesnt react the same.

Nov 18 2007, 09:12 PM
gymnastic competitors stretch very aggressively and are some of the strongest athletes i've known

poisonelf
Nov 19 2007, 02:01 PM
I'm at the gym 5 days a week (this has been covered in another thread) and have added over 40 lbs to my frame this last year. I really haven't lost any of the flexablility I had before due to this training. I do many exercises ie squats, dead lifts, bench press, etc that for the most part are for building mass. While it seems as though my distance would be greatly diminished due to the extra body weight I can actually throw a disc on a line about 30-40 foot farther than last year.

bruce_brakel
Nov 19 2007, 11:29 PM
I'll let him speak for himself, but a pro i know has started a torso stabilization program and things are maybe getting worse before they get better.

Kelsey did a an eight week torso stabilzation program and is now throwing better than ever.

Lyle O Ross
Nov 20 2007, 11:17 AM
I haven't read the entire thread but thought I would comment regardless.

I lift two to three times a week and it has helped with my accuracy. To put it in a nutshell, the added strength and speed allows me to take some off the effort so that my accuracy is not impaired by trying to get better distance.

That said, how I lift is very important IMO. First, I utilize a full set of yoga stretches daily. This is to keep my flexibility as high as possible. Second, I don't lift for bulk.

I have a workout coach who has a decent understanding of what I'm trying to accomplish. My workout breaks into four areas. Torso exercises that focus on my Obliques and Abdominals for torsion power. Lower body exercises for a stable platform and more power (a lot of these require balancing as part of the exercise). General lifting to cover the entire body so that I don't over emphasize my lower body). Lifts that include explosiveness to increase my speed.

I'm 47 my average distance when throwing for distance is about 380. My longest throw is 430 feet (a fluke). I've hit over 400 multiple times. More importantly, up to 350 feet I'm very accurate with that distance being a light pull for me.

Lyle O Ross
Nov 20 2007, 11:24 AM
Oh yes, muscle memory. A number of the lifts I utilize through the year mimic throwing motions. In theory, this builds muscle memory for the appropriate movement.

Early on, for the first year I lifted with this guy, he included a number of straight motion exercises that were meant to do nothing but build in my walk up and throwing motion. At this point I have no problems with those areas and rely on my practices to emphasize what is now fairly set.

One thing I will say. This has paid off for me in that in practice rounds I'm about a 950 player. However, I've yet to play a real competitive round since starting this. In the past, I tended to choke in tournaments. That said, about six months after I started this I played my last tournament where I shot in the 940 or 950 area and in my last league I was up there with the 940 rated players. Prior to starting this I was an 870 rated player.