hey guys wanted to ask this question. When I see the old school frisbee dudes throw golf they tweak the disc with there wrist on the approach and drive. It seems the new dudes keep there wrist straight and power the disc through with there shoulders and hips.
I notice that climo doesnt rare back all the way. I suspect that spin might have something to do with this. Dean Tannock also doesnt reach back that far. Most people tell you not to bend your wrist when throwing, some say to cocck there wrist? what?

I read climo cocks his wrist all the way for full power and slightly for less.

Spin makes a drive look pretty. It holds the disc on its line longer than armspeed alone. Good spin on a disc can lessen the amount of power that you have to putt on a disc, therefore increasing touch and accuracy. Ken Climo is a spin master--he never throws hard. I swear when you watch him throw a 300' Roc shot he doesn't reach back at all and his eyes are on the target 100% of the time from his reach back to his follow through. Its like his body is on a swivel and his head doesn't move.

There are two components to a throw, speed and torque or spin. The combination of these two and their relative ratio in a given throw determines:

1) distance
2) stability of the flight (whether a disc flies more or less stable)
3) Accuracy (not directly)

All players that have any level of real skill, intentionally impart spin or torque on their discs. You can get by without any real arm strength i.e. speed (see David Greenwell) but you can't without spin. Younger players tend to focus on that speed element. If I can just throw it hard enough it has to go far, right? Wrong. Most distance comes from proper torque. Yes, there is a speed component but it means nothing without spin.

The best players are able to vary the two components without regard to each other. That is, they don't have to have speed to impart proper spin, and they can vary their spin regardless of how hard they throw. For the most part, IMO, they do it subconsciously (with exceptions like Kenny).

My advice is to work on adequate speed but to focus on your technique so that it imparts good spin. As you get a feel for that, it will become increasingly obvious how to modify what your doing to put more or less spin on the the disc thus affecting it's flight characteristics.

With regards to the lack of reach back, it could be that they are utilizing the "bent elbow technique". I used to be a pure spin kind of thrower back in '05 and it worked well, but I couldn't throw much past 350'. Most of my competitors could, so I tried to find out how to increase distance and came across "Distance Secrets" by Dave Dunipace (on discgolfreview.com). I had to read it about fifty times before I started to get it, but now it is paying off. It proved to me that you don't need much of a reach back at all for distance (and spin) you just need to focus your generation of power at the "hit". By exploding through your release, you take advantage of the elastic qualities of your tendons, and they generate explosive speed and spin.

Of course there is no "right" way, but I think if you study that article and give yourself plenty of time to digest it and work on it in a field, you will find that speed and spin will take care of themselves, w/o you having to put much thought into it.

Now having said all that, realize that your question is about DRIVES not upshots. I feel that cocking the wrist is extremely useful when it comes to upshots where you need to control the amount of glide, and the amount of time to hold and anhyzer line to manuver around a tree for example. That is where the old school frisbee dudes really get an advantage with the amount of touch they have due to spin control.

Whew, I ment to throw in my two cents, but it reads more like a dollar or two ;)

JB

The article that you mentioned taught me how to throw. By studying it (and of course getting all my questions along the way answered here by Dave D. and Blake) I went from 350' to over 400' after a month or two of field practice focusing on the "hit". I had never even seen anyone throw 400' yet. Before I read the article I was concentrating on reaching back further and my field practice was making my whole back and body sore. After I started keeping my elbow bent it felt much more natural and I could throw for an hour in the field and only suffer a little shoulder soreness. If you have not read the article yet I would highly suggest reading it about 10 times and talking about it to every disc golfer you know.

In response to the Ken Climo comment above. . .

At what distance do most people need to take their eyes off the basket to gain distance?

I have only experimented a little with trying to keep my eyes on the basket. Somewhere in the 100 ft area, my throw feels much more comfortable if I turn my head away from the basket. On the other hand, I lose site of the target.

Just curious.

it seems like throwers like barry and nate doss push the disc out to the side with almost a straight arm and dont bend there elbow till the push through. I think the secret of a swing is how you bring the disc back(aim). it helps you push the disc through at the right angle and speed. I try to coccck my wrist but the disc sprays

i personally keep my eyes on target up until i hit about 60-65%which translates to about
putter- 240-260
mid-310-320
driver-375-and up
mj

Scott Martin never took his eyes off the target, no matter what it seemed. One of the few I know that did this on drives. I take my eye off the target to keep from wrenching my neck!

this is something i just learned about (keeping an eye on the target)... seems obvious but nobody ever mentioned it to me.

Thanks for the input MJ (although would've been a lot easier to hear it from you one of the many rounds we've played together)

sometimes it just helps to ask, stack.

I read about how Climo keeps his eyes on target on his approaches....

...and...

I went out and practiced it and it is very helpful if you ever have any trouble getting close to the basket...

I felt like I was making long putt attempts instead of a shorter drive or something like that...

I will try and start assimilating this into my game as I saw immediate results...

Yeah, that's awesome. I have also seen immediate improvement with my drives by walking straight at or toward my target as opposed to how I got used to doing it over the last year which was starting to the right side of the teebox and swinging through. I developed some consistency that way but it's just an extra variable I am trying to erase from my game right now.

glad something like that helps out, feel free to ask or pm me any questions will help out if i can
mj

The run-up will definitely affect the release. You can tweak your release by fine tuning where you start / finish the run-up. There are times when you'll want to start right-rear and release left-front, other times a straight approach is appropriate and others favoring a left to right run-up.

I'd say trying a few of each will reveal a very useful pattern.


I have also seen immediate improvement with my drives by walking straight at or toward my target as opposed to how I got used to doing it over the last year which was starting to the right side of the teebox and swinging through.



Did you used to throw cool s-curve shots?

Read the Scott Stokley Book. He talks about the throw, not in as much detail as Dave Dunipace but from a reach back perspective.

What he does say is that at the apex of the reach back, your disc should be on the line you are throwing down. Logically, this makes sense. Even if you aren't looking at the basket, if you are on the line you need to throw down, and you pull the disc through on that line, you should then throw down that line. For myself, I don't even try and cheat, i.e. try and get a peek at the target as I come around. I visualize that line and throwing down that line. I pull down it and that seems to work very well for me.

I have also seen immediate improvement with my drives by walking straight at or toward my target as opposed to how I got used to doing it over the last year which was starting to the right side of the teebox and swinging through.



Did you used to throw cool s-curve shots?

Yeah it is still easier to revert back to this type of swinging throw when I want to turn a driver over hard or force an overstable disc into an S-pattern :) it is definitely easier to force the nose down this way

to be honest, i am not the strongest kid on the block. but i can give my drives so much spin that it holds its line to about 300-350ft. but if i use a lighter disc, i roll it over. i've made a sidewinder roll with a hyzer throw.

but less spin makes it fade faster, and too much makes it fade the wrong way.

There is a difference between adding spin (via snap or other method) and torquing the disc over (rolling your wrist, etc.). You want a lot of snap and very little wrist roll.